1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Instrumental Music In Worship???

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Godamp;#39;s Word Is TRUTHamp;#33;amp;#33;amp;#33;, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    259
    The NT is not silent concerning singing but singing is commanded.

    Nowhere in the NT are God's people (Christians) commanded to use instruments.

    God does not change His mind but He changed laws from OT to NT. This change was pre-planned before the world began. So the OT was taken out of the way and replaced by a much better law of Christ.

    Christians are under law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21. John said sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4. If I was not under any law then I would be perfectly sinless having no law to transgress.

    Who do you know that is not under any law therefore perfectly sinless?

    I see nothing ludicrous about God commanding Christians to sing. It is no more ludicrous God choosing gopher wood over all other types woods He could have chosen nor is it ludicrous that Christ choose fruit of the vine and unleaven bread over all others items He could have chosen.

    I do not have a church. Christ has one church, one body, Eph 4:4,5 that possesses one faith and the church gets it authority from the bible and the bible commands Christians to sing. In my own mind it is not about proving or disproving things but all about following what the bible says. So when the bible says sing, then I sing and do not question it and if I play then I am no longer following God's word but changing God 's word. And it does not apply to this single issue but salvic issues as well. When the bible says I must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess; Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized Mk 16:16 in order to be saved, then I do not question it, I just follow it and cannot change it. The reason there are thousands of religious groups today that all contradict each other on all various issue is that they are not following but are changing what God said to fit thier own personal opinions.

    You finished your post with "Worship how you will"

    It is this kind of idea that breeds all the various groups with contradicting opinions instead of everyone being in Christ's one church possessing that one faith.. It is about following the bible and not about changing the bible to fit people's will.
     
  2. Secondhand Lion

    Secondhand Lion New Member

    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ernest,

    I am trying to be as cordial as I can. It is good of you to hide behind your keyboard and condemn everyone and everything. You not only miss the very plain things you are saying that contradict, but more importantly...you miss the most important things God left for us to do...Love the Lord your God with all your heart (you seem to have this one) and love your neighbor as yourself. Good grief man...have some mercy...God had it on you no matter how good you think you are. I hate to be the one who breaks it to you my friend....but you are wrong about things....what they are I don't know, but you are in for just as big of a surprise about some of the things you attributed to God that He didn't believe as anyone else is.

    You don't seem to catch what I am saying...when you sing....your voice is an instrument!

    SL
     
  3. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    259
    I am not condemning anyone, if anything, people condemn themselves when they change what the bible says and not follow what the bible says.


    Can God's truth be found in contraditions? Does God's word contradict itself? Is God the author of confusion? I say "no" to all three questons, what say you?


    How many is one? Is there more than one body/church? Is there more than one faith?

    If Christianity were truly made up of thousands of man-man made denominations with contradicting faithS then why would anyone waste their time on it? I surely would not. It would be the biggest, contradicting, non-credible, non-truthful joke ever foisted upon mankind.
     
  4. Secondhand Lion

    Secondhand Lion New Member

    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    21
    I agree God never contradicts...so when I see a contradiction, I know its the person stating it. Like making believe a voice is not an instrument.

    I agree also on one body, but people having views like yours is just as responsible for splitting it up as anyone.

    SL
     
  5. williemac

    williemac New Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    63
    A question has been asked of me that somehow doesn't seem relevant to this dicussion. Here it is:

    Christians are under law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21. John said sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4. If I was not under any law then I would be perfectly sinless having no law to transgress.

    Who do you know that is not under any law therefore perfectly sinless? (Ernest T. Bass)

    Answer:
    ... 1st fact: Rom.3:19,20...." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth shall be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God" . " therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is knowledge of sin"..

    2nd fact: Rom.3:21,22..." But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witness by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus, to all and on all who believe, for there is no difference; vs.22..." For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' 23: .."being justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.....28..."therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law"

    conclusion? Justified apart from the aw

    3rd fact:....as you said, "if I were not under law, then I would be perfectly sinless"...so Paul says the same in different words;
    Rom.6:14..." For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace"

    I highlighted it because you asked the question and there is your answer.
    You correctly understood the consequence of not being under law, which is...you cannot be declared a sinner. This is why sin cannot have dominion over those not under the law.
    No law= no transgression.

    I think it is incredible that a person who seems so aquainted with scripture has failed to come across this truth and thus appreciate the ramifications of it.

    I'm sorry, but one cannot just jump to his concordance and find a passage like 1Cor.9:21, and make all kinds of assumptions as to what it means. The fact is, we are certainly accountable to Jesus Christ our Lord. This is because we are a part of Him. However, this accountability is not for the purpose of justification to life. Jesus has every right to chasten those who are under His authority. But in terms of our 'position' before God....we are not under law but under grace.

    1John 2:1 states that Jesus is our advocate before the Father in the case of sin. On the one hand, He may chasten me as one of His own, but on the same hand, He will cover me as one of His own, by faith in Him.

    So while you may be tempted to condemn those who use instruments in praise, remember, we are not condemned before God.

    My advice to you: take a pill.
     
  6. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,758
    Likes Received:
    1,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The bottom line is that there is plenty of references to using musical intruments in the NT. In Luke 15:25 Jesus descibes in a parable "music and dancing". The definition of "music" includes and allows instruments. In Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 and Jas 5:13 we are told to sing and perform psalms. The Strongs greek and hebrew both note that this includes musical instruments, but you don't need Strongs to understand this is so.... Simply go to the book of Psalms and you will see countless references to musical instruments. Thus, if you are going to sing psalms, you can use musical instruments. In Rev 5:8, 14:2 and 15:2 John describes harps being played in heaven. So clearly (whether they are literal or spiritual harps) God isn't against it. There are 8 NT references that allow musical instruments!

    It's hard to dismiss. You have to do a big "song and dance" routine to get around them, and it's strange that people do so with these verses and then demand a very strict and dry following of other verses.

    Jesus Christ said he was the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8). He did bring something new to the table in that he allows grace through faith to be our righteousness without the deeds of the law. But he never disallowed in the NT the use of instruments. In fact, he looked to make us more free; not bind us with more rules! So, if he liked musical instruments in the OT, and never disallowed them in the NT, he's still the same today!

    On the other hand, there's a lot of gospel singers and musicians that build a career around their "music ministry". I am against that, but that's a topic for another time. But for now, the TRUTH is that God through Jesus, his Apostles and servants DID authorize the use of musical instruments in the OT and the NT. It is only the hardness of modern doctrines that it is forbidden. God FREED people from the Law of Moses. He's not going to place bondage on you with something he never forbad, but rather approved of, in the NT.

    I'm done....
     
    williemac likes this.
  7. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    259
    There is no command, no example, no necessary inference for the use of instruments in NT worship. Use of IM is a change, a corruption introduced by man. EPh 5:19 does not say "play instruments". I can go to the book of Pasalms, chapter 66 verses 13-15 and see animal sacrifices, burnt offerings which would be just as binding as any other verse in Psalms. Yet Christ permanently took ALL the OT out of the way, making it inactive, of no effect.

    Bottom line, one must go to great lenghts to change, rewrite and ignore many parts of the bible to justify use of IM in worship.
    You can call a voice an instrument that one uses to sing with, but it is not a mechanical instrument one plays in addition to singing thereby changing what God said in how His church is to worship
    In Rom 3:19,20,21,22 Paul is referencing the law of Moses. One cannot be justified by the law of Moses, for if one could then Christ is dead in vain, Gal 2:21.
    Christ took that OT law permanently out of the way replacing it with HIs NT law Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 so if one can go back to that law of Moses and find justification then Christ is dead in vain. And justification/salvation does come by obedience to Chris'ts NT law, Heb 9:5; Rom 6:17,18

    So justification is aprat form the OT law of Moses and not apart from Christ's NT law.

    Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

    Grace and redemption is "in Christ Jesus" Not a single verse says faith only puts one in CHrist, but it takes obedience is submitting to water baptism to be in Christ, Gal 3:27.

    Rom 3:28 says justified by faith

    James 2:24 says justified by works


    Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, and the bible does not contraidcit itself, James and Paul do not contriadict, then a saving faith must include obedient works as James speaks about.

    In Rom 6:14, Paul uses the term "law" to refer to the lw of Moses and uses the term "grace" to refer to the law of CHrist's NT gospel.
    https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/738-are-we-under-law-or-grace


    So the point still stands: you sin for you are under Christ's NT law or you are perfectly sinless being under no law at all.
    1 Cor 9:21 could not be more plain in Paul saying he is under law to Christ. You say yourself there is "accountability to Christ". Yes, accountable to Christ's NT law, to His word, the bible, a law that is to be fullfilled, Gal 6:2.


    .....if people would only put as much energy into obeying Christ's NT law as they do in trying to find a way around it or a way to get rid of it.......
     
  8. Secondhand Lion

    Secondhand Lion New Member

    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ernest,

    i just got done studying, thinking, and praying over the subject. It is an interesting concept and was a very good study, but I am afraid that scripture just does not seem to support your assertion.

    I know you will not accept it, however the main point you can not avoid is Ephesians 5:19. We are given instruction to sing the Psalms. The psalms were set to have instrumental accompaniment.

    Thank you for the good viewpoint that I had never heard before, and again, if you choose to worship that way, I certainly would not try to stop you. I feel that maybe you are missing out on some of the wonderful talents God has given to some of His followers. There are some very good Christian oriented musicians who do amazing things with instruments to glorify God.

    You may have the last word. I will not respond further on this subject.

    Have a good day Ernest.

    SL
     
  9. williemac

    williemac New Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    63
    In your acknowledgment that Paul was referencing the law of Moses, you are making a mistake by suggesting that Jesus replaced it with another law. Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said " we are not under law" . You say we Are under law, just not the law of Moses. I prefer to believe Paul.
    Rom.3:24 states we are justified freely by grace. How is that a law?
    Gal.3:27 makes no mention of water. We are baptized "into Christ" by faith, by the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual event, not a physical one.
    As well, James cannot be understood outside of the context. James was exhorting them to a better quality of behavior toward one another. He was telling them if one has real faith, then it would result in a certain quality of behavior. By works, faith is made perfect. James was referring to the fruit that comes from our faith. This is about cause and effect. You are not talking about cause and effect, You are making works part of the cause.
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    259
    Eph 5:19 does not say to use instrument.

    THose that insist on using IM generally have 3 arguments:

    1) go back to the OT to find justification for using IM
    2) use the very illogical argument that the NT does not say not to use IM
    3) that psallo includes using instruments

    All three have been put forth and all three have been shown to be badly biblically flawed. So the issue remains that many are not allowing the NT to be the final authority as to how NT Christians are to worship. AS I have said many times already, if one does not have to follow the NT when it comes to how to worship by singing, then there is no reason one has to follow the NT when it comes to anything, everything else.

    Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

    Heb 10:9 "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

    Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."


    It is clear to me that there wa a change in laws, Christ took awawy the first (OT so that He may establsih the second (NT).


    Paul was contrasting the OT law to NT law (grace). Nothing in the bible say grace must be void of law. There was grace even under the OT law > Noah found grace in the eyes of God.



    Gal 3:27 would be water baptism, the one baptism of Eph 4:5. Proper exegesis is that words are to be taken at thier literal meaning unless something in the context shows otherwise. Nothing n the context of Gal 3:27 shows baptism to be anything other than a literal immersion and not a figurative spirit baptism. The Galatians would have a "faith that worketh by love", Gal 5:6 an obedient working faith in submitting to water baptism.
     
  11. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

    Messages:
    1,485
    Likes Received:
    61
    You are funny.

    You begin by saying you don't want an argument and then present an argument contrary to traditional worship for thousands of years or more. Christian worship has included song since before the days of Antioch when believers were first called Christians. Perhaps if your subject were a bit more refined there might be something worth grasping. As it is, there's little more than anti-worship in the post.

    Instrumental music has been considered part of the worship of God since the days of King David and before. The book of Psalms is a collection of song lyrics. God approves of song in worship.

    The argument through the years has focused on what type of song and how its presented.

    God is not opposed to instrumental music in the worship service. The Bible says so. References may be supplied upon request.

    and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    259
    Burnt offerings/animal sacrifices were also a part of worship David observed under the law of Moses, Psa 66:13-15. So why do those who use David as justification for instruments also offer animal sacrifices as David did in worshipping God?


    You posted "God is not opposed to instrumental music in the worship service"

    What proof can you provide that God is not opposed to musical instruments in NT church worship?
     
  13. williemac

    williemac New Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    63
    Why ask that question when you have not proven that He is opposed? Neither have you given a reason why He would be. You have simply assumed things by the absence of what is written rather than by the presence of what is written. Where is the passage that instruments are not allowed? And BTW, it is falsely limited to the label: worship . It is rather, praise and thanksgiving. In the bible, we see people from time to time fall on their knees and worship. In those moments, I assure you that they are not breaking into song. People may well sing in worship, but worship is not defined as singing. In true worship, it probably will not occur to a person to use an instrument. But in church, while singing praises and thanksgiving to God, there is no restriction in scripture. In fact instruments were encouraged in this activity, in places like PS. 150. Did God change His mind? Show us why!
     
Loading...