IS ALL SIN FORGIVEN ?

[DNB]

2 Timothy 1:9 is crystal clear in its revelation. Good passage choice. No offence but you need to rethink this @DNB.

I replied to Anthony's post, if you care to see my perspective on it....

 

[DNB]

Yes, DNB. This is not just speculation but observation. Apostasy is the falling away from a previously maintained position. God is able to keep us from falling away, but only does so if it is the desire of our heart to remain faithful to Him.

Jud 1:24-25
(24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
(25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Very well said, I would entirely agree!

 

[Enoch111]

If salvation comes through hearing the Word of God, and hearing implies comprehension, for one cannot be convicted of something that they don't understand, then, the level of one's conviction is commensurate to their understanding.
And since, one's understanding is contingent upon, first of all, the competency of the one who preached the Word to them, and then to their own maturity and wisdom, we expect that in the same manner that they accepted the Word, they can renounce it.
That is, if someone comes along with more intellect, eloquence and confidence preaching either another, 'gospel', atheism, buddhism, islam, etc... then what is stopping the once converted, to re-assessing his initial conviction, if reasoning was the main grounds that convinced him towards Christianity in the first place?

Once again this reveals your improper understanding of the Gospel, the power of the Holy Spirit, of conversion, repentance, remission of sins, justification, salvation, and eternal security.

Believing the Gospel is NOT merely an intellectual exercise.
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:37, omitted from all modern versions).

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:9,10)

The whole being is involved in conversion. And it does result in genuine repentance, which then rejects everything other than Christ and the Word of God. So all your hypothetical scenarios are just that -- pure fantasy.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Well, in regard to 2 Timothy 1:9, i would simply say that it is the principle of grace that he is referring to, that was granted from eternity. Not the Elect. Now, of course, as far as this particular verse goes, I personally think that both comprehensions are viable, mine & yours. And, of course, i trust that this is obviously not the only proof-text that you believe supports a Reformed perspective on Scripture.

The reason that I initially contended your statement about 'All of the sins of the Elect are forgiven', is because the OP was basically about the need for repentance, or, at least the extent of it. I felt that your comment didn't quite address his point (the need to continuously repent, or not), and that it just jumped into a Reformed stance, with all its implications. Thus, if such a principle as the Elect is true (and all its predicates), the whole OP becomes a moot point? Which may very well be the case, but since repentance is a paramount principle in Christian theology, it seemed that you overlooked its necessity in one extent, or another?

no....it is a holy saving grace...not a principle, but a power.
You seem to describe a natural understanding that is not consistent with Spiritual life.

 

[Enow]

Your last paragraph has almost no punctuation, that was a difficult read (I couldn't do it)?

The unforgivable sin is not disbelief, it is a sentiment that will disqualify you from ever having the option to repent, while on this earth.

Yes, only on your death bed, or unless Christ returns first, will we have the option to Salvation or Condemnation, irrespective of one's prior convictions. So, I'm not sure where your contention lies?

A saved believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin.

A sinner that has been rejecting Jesus and blaspheming the Holy Ghost can still believe in Him to be saved even before he or she dies because by believing in Him is by repenting of unbelief which is the only real unforgivable sin there is that is the real blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.

 

[Enow]

You seem to be ignoring the context of the verses which speak about the unforgivable sin. Where do you get "unbelief" from what Jesus tells the pharisees who account his works as those of beelzebub?

Compare Matthew's account with Mark's account as being of the incident that Jesus was being accused of doing and then compare that same verse in Luke's account. How many unforgivable sin is there? There can only be on; the sin of unbelief as that is the sin the Holy Spirit will convict of in John 16:7-11

Matthew 12:24-37 Pay attention to verses 30 to 37 for why I believe the blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is the sin of unbelief, because 33 shows how someone that keeps resisting believing in Jesus can be made clean by what I believe is done by believing in Him finally.

Mark 3:22-30 do not have those extra verses to discern that what was said is done by unbelief as that was the blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.

Luke 12:8-10 has Jesus describing those who confess Him before men and then denying Him before men and then that blaspheme again and yet not involving the incident of accusing Jesus of casting out demons by a demon, but following unbelievers that deny Him and try to scatter people from Him.

Anyway, I understand why many thinks it is about speaking against the Holy Ghost in Mark's account but what was said was to scatter believers from Jesus as explained further in Matthew's account and how one can become clean by confessing Him before men as Luke's account confirms.

I do not see any judgment in the Bible, neither in the great white throne judgment event of anyone being judged by speaking against the Holy Ghost when the only one that sends a sinner in is the sin of unbelief of resisting the testimony of the Holy Ghost in Jesus's ministry to believe in Him to be saved.

 

[DNB]

Once again this reveals your improper understanding of the Gospel, the power of the Holy Spirit, of conversion, repentance, remission of sins, justification, salvation, and eternal security.

Believing the Gospel is NOT merely an intellectual exercise.
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:37, omitted from all modern versions).

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:9,10)

The whole being is involved in conversion. And it does result in genuine repentance, which then rejects everything other than Christ and the Word of God. So all your hypothetical scenarios are just that -- pure fantasy.

You sound simple Enoch111, verging on ignorant!
Are you trying to differentiate between what the mind understands, and what the heart believes? Are you that oblivious and deluded?

Faith lesson 101: one cannot be convicted of something that they cannot understand! Is this maxim beyond you comprehension?
Don't even try to refute it, for you have absolutely no understanding of the affinity and symbiosis between the heart and the mind!

I gave you what the process of conversion is in a very sound a reasonable manner. If you can't comprehend the logistics or perceive the veracity of what I said, and would prefer to go off into some mystical realm of which you have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about, then be prepared to be labelled accordingly, ...impetuous and fantastical (yes, the irony).

 

[DNB]

no....it is a holy saving grace...not a principle, but a power.
You seem to describe a natural understanding that is not consistent with Spiritual life.

You sound flaky and mystical. Start being reasonable, and knock off your ethereal delusion, as if you actually have a grounded comprehension of these things.
Keep it sound and simple, and give glory to God by doing so.

 

[DNB]

A saved believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin.

A sinner that has been rejecting Jesus and blaspheming the Holy Ghost can still believe in Him to be saved even before he or she dies because by believing in Him is by repenting of unbelief which is the only real unforgivable sin there is that is the real blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.

I don't know Enow (rhymes), that seems a bit too obvious, in the sense that Christ appeared to say something outside of what he already had taught extensively, i.e. faith in him as the Messiah.
Obviously, he was preaching salvation through faith throughout his ministry, but this particular injunction, appears to be a stipulation over and above all his previous precepts. In that it was in direct context to these Pharisees committing the crime, claiming the power of the Holy Ghost, was actually that of Satan (a divided kingdom cannot stand). This principle appears have a very strict and exceptional context to it, not the general concept of Faith over works.
And this exception becomes very clear in Luke's account. Notice how he differentiates between speaking against Christ, which appears to be forgivable, and blasphemy against the spirit, which is not. ...we assume that ' ...a word against the Son of Man...', is a sentiment against his Messiahship or Lordship, for nothing else would have any pertinence to the Gospel?

Luke 12:10
12:10. "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

 

[marksman]

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This verse declares we have forgiveness for ALL sin, not as some say, only for sins we confess, and repent of.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do you know what is the keyword is here? It is ALL

 

[friend of]

To be clear

Ascribing the works of the devil to God is not the unforgivable sin. It's ascribing the works of Christ to the devil.

 

[friend of]

Anyway, I understand why many thinks it is about speaking against the Holy Ghost in Mark's account but what was said was to scatter believers from Jesus as explained further in Matthew's account and how one can become clean by confessing Him before men as Luke's account confirms.

I do not see any judgment in the Bible, neither in the great white throne judgment event of anyone being judged by speaking against the Holy Ghost when the only one that sends a sinner in is the sin of unbelief of resisting the testimony of the Holy Ghost in Jesus's ministry to believe in Him to be saved.

I respect your opinion on the matter. But I'm not sure I can totally agree. I do hope you're right though.

 

[Enow]

I don't know Enow (rhymes), that seems a bit too obvious, in the sense that Christ appeared to say something outside of what he already had taught extensively, i.e. faith in him as the Messiah.
Obviously, he was preaching salvation through faith throughout his ministry, but this particular injunction, appears to be a stipulation over and above all his previous precepts. In that it was in direct context to these Pharisees committing the crime, claiming the power of the Holy Ghost, was actually that of Satan (a divided kingdom cannot stand). This principle appears have a very strict and exceptional context to it, not the general concept of Faith over works.
And this exception becomes very clear in Luke's account. Notice how he differentiates between speaking against Christ, which appears to be forgivable, and blasphemy against the spirit, which is not. ...we assume that ' ...a word against the Son of Man...', is a sentiment against his Messiahship or Lordship, for nothing else would have any pertinence to the Gospel?

Luke 12:10
12:10. "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

It may appear to you that what was said as being against the Holy Ghost but they were not speaking to the Holy Ghost when this was said. They were speaking to the people about Jesus having a demon to scatter the people from Him. So in the case of all those accounts, what is the blaspheme against the Holy Ghost? Is it scattering people from the Lord by saying He has a demon? Is it not the same as denying Him before men? Is it not an act done in unbelief? And yet to never to believe in Jesus Christ is the only sin the Holy Spirit will convict of.

To say it is about speaking against the Holy Ghost when the said act was done in unbelief about Jesus and yet Luke's account has nothing to do with the accusation incident by how one confess or deny Jesus before men... then we are not getting a clear picture in Mark's account of what Jesus meant.

If we consider the ramification that when testing the spirits, if someone calls that which is not of the Lord, then they are calling it the spirit of the antichrist. Erring believers that go after those who expose that work of darkness as blaspheming against the Holy Ghost and yet to call evil "good" would actually be the same thing as calling the spirits of the antichrist, the Holy Ghost, right? And yet we are to test the spirits and not believe every one of them to be of God. 1 John 4:1-6 & John 14:16-17 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Why would God put believers in peril for testing the spirits, let alone those who go astray? Why call them to repentance if they are never to be forgiven? Why call those who fall away from the faith, thus do not have faith, that are wicked, unreasonable men that do not follow after the tradition taught of us and are disorderly as Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 as Paul was speaking of those erring believers in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 if he calls those we withdraw from still brothers and not the enemy in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15?

So the application as being what was said about the Holy Ghost when it was said about Jesus to scatter the people from Him is the discernment.

Like Mark 16:16 where people apply that to mean water baptism is necessary for salvation and yet when compared to other scripture, Jesus had to be referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

So yes, I understand the majority's application about what Jesus has said in regards to speaking against the Son of Man and it is different when speaking against the Holy Spirit, but the application of it in why it was said should be discerned as well because the only conviction of unforgivable sin that the Holy Spirit will do and that is what matters, is when they die never believing in Jesus Christ to have received Him for salvation. John 16:7-11

All other sins can be forgiven, but the sin of unbelief of never having believed in Him to be saved. because they are already condemned to die; John 3:18 which the Holy Spirit will convict of as the unforgivable sin. When the Holy Spirit is not in unbelievers, then that is the conviction for why they are in hell and eventually in the lake of fire. That is the witness and conviction of the Holy Ghost towards unbelievers.

 

[Enow]

To be clear

Ascribing the works of the devil to God is not the unforgivable sin. It's ascribing the works of Christ to the devil.

Those who oppose my application can still argue just by how people apply that verse to mean as blaspheming the Holy Ghost since they apply speaking against the Son of man is different from speaking against the Holy Spirit. I still point out that even though what was said was directed to Jesus rather than directly to the Holy Ghost, it was said to scatter the people from Him in spite of the miracles and so it was done in unbelief.

And yet we are to test the spirits per 1 John 4:1-6

If we consider the ramification that when testing the spirits, if someone calls that which is not of the Lord, then they are calling it the spirit of the antichrist. Erring believers that go after those who expose that work of darkness as blaspheming against the Holy Ghost and yet to call evil "good" would actually be the same thing as calling the spirits of the antichrist, the Holy Ghost, right? And yet we are to test the spirits and not believe every one of them to be of God. 1 John 4:1-6 & John 14:16-17 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Why would God put believers in peril for testing the spirits, let alone those who go astray? Why call them to repentance if they are never to be forgiven? Why call those who fall away from the faith, thus do not have faith, that are wicked, unreasonable men that do not follow after the tradition taught of us and are disorderly as Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 as Paul was speaking of those erring believers in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 if he calls those we withdraw from still brothers and not the enemy in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15?

So the application as being what was said about the Holy Ghost when it was said about Jesus to scatter the people from Him is the discernment.

 

[OzSpen]

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This verse declares we have forgiveness for ALL sin, not as some say, only for sins we confess, and repent of.

Doug,

This is what happens when you cherry pick one verse that is not in harmony with the rest of Scripture. What does 1 John 1:9 (NIV) state: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness'.

Therefore, it is necessary to confess our sins to receive God's forgiveness.

The Book of Proverbs agrees: 'Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy' (Prov 28:13 NIV).

Oz

 

[DNB]

To say it is about speaking against the Holy Ghost when the said act was done in unbelief about Jesus and yet Luke's account has nothing to do with the accusation incident by how one confess or deny Jesus before men... then we are not getting a clear picture in Mark's account of what Jesus meant.

But, we do. He juxtaposed a remark against Jesus, and blasphemy against the Spirit. I will venture to say that '...speaking a word against the Son of man..' is unbelief. And he demarcated the distinction between unbelief, and blasphemy.
You are not giving blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the distinction that it requires, the exceptional offense that Jesus gave it.
For, one can denounce Christ at some point, and recover. But Jesus is making this one specific injunction, i.e. speaking against the Holy Ghost, as irrecoverable.
You have not recognized or addressed, the two different dispositions that Jesus delineated in Luke 12:10.

 

[mailmandan]

Doug,

This is what happens when you cherry pick one verse that is not in harmony with the rest of Scripture. What does 1 John 1:9 (NIV) state: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness'.

Therefore, it is necessary to confess our sins to receive God's forgiveness.

The Book of Proverbs agrees: 'Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy' (Prov 28:13 NIV).

Oz

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Some people misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!"

Believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

 

[Enow]

But, we do. He juxtaposed a remark against Jesus, and blasphemy against the Spirit. I will venture to say that '...speaking a word against the Son of man..' is unbelief. And he demarcated the distinction between unbelief, and blasphemy.
You are not giving blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the distinction that it requires, the exceptional offense that Jesus gave it.
For, one can denounce Christ at some point, and recover. But Jesus is making this one specific injunction, i.e. speaking against the Holy Ghost, as irrecoverable.
You have not recognized or addressed, the two different dispositions that Jesus delineated in Luke 12:10.

I did, because your application would put saved believers at risk when testing the spirits and yet we are told to test the spirits. 1 John 4:1-6

Is it not blaspheme to testify the spirit of the antichrist as being the Holy Spirit just as easily as saying the other way? To call evil good and good evil in regards to the Holy Spirit of what that spirit is, would make all believers not to say anything if that spirit was the Holy Spirit or not, now would it?

 

[Doug]

Would that part of that verse signifying us to be dead in our sins suggests no longer living in them for how we have been forgiven our trespasses?

Doesn't walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son is how His blood cleanses us from all sins?

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And if we do sin, we can confess our sins and Jesus is faithful to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are dead in sins and can not save ourselves.
When we trust Christ, then we are to know we are dead to sin (Romans 6:2)and should walk in newness of life being raised with him (Romans 6:4)

1 John 1:9 is directed to Israel not the church today. It is for Israel under the covenant which commands them to confess their sins as a nation...see Leviticus 26:40-42

 

[Doug]

Interesting, ...but, I can't see John speaking at a corporate level at that point of history, i.e. dispensation of grace to all nations.

1 John is not speaking of this dispensation of grace but to the remnant of Israel during the last days at the time of the writing and in the last days in the future (1 John 2:18). The last days or last time is the period which anticipates the coming of Christ and his kingdom on earth for Israel and the nations.
Israel had to keep his commandments to enter the millennial kingdom on earth (John 14:15 1 John 2:3 Revelation 14:12)
Israel had to believe only on the name of Jesus, that he is Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31 1 1 John 5:13).