Is believing/faith a work ?

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Peter chapter 2 makes no sense if OSAS were true.

"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

In an effort to overturn this proverb, OSASers claim the dog and the sow were "never really saved", that is, the dog was always a lost dog and the sow was always a lost sow.

But the proverb is not teaching both were never really saved but instead shows the dog had once expelled the sin and the sow once had its sin washed away. Then the proverb shows both as having returned to their sinfulness by the dog eating again the sin it had once expelled and the sow wallowing in sin it had once washed off.

Peter is picturing apostates, who had once been forgiven of sins, they are now pictured as dogs and sows eating vomit again and wallowing in mire again.

what will it take for you to see? how many times must it be explained to you?

a Dog is a dog. when a dog is saved. he is no longer a dog. he is made into a new creation. So he does not act like a dog. because he is no longer a dog.

a dog returns to his vomit, because he was STILL a dog.

he did not lose salvation. He proved he was never saved by the fact he returned to his sin (vomit).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

what will it take for you to see? how many times must it be explained to you?

a Dog is a dog. when a dog is saved. he is no longer a dog. he is made into a new creation. So he does not act like a dog. because he is no longer a dog.

a dog returns to his vomit, because he was STILL a dog.

he did not lose salvation. He proved he was never saved by the fact he returned to his sin (vomit).

Obviously the context is not talking about literal dogs and sows but making a figurative or metahphorical comparison with a human who had once been saved by having sins washed away, sins were expelled out but has now returned again to those sins.

You want to overlook the fact those sins had been washed away, expelled out meaning the person was forgiven of sins.

If the person was always lost, never saved then;
1) it cannot be said that person had sins washed, expelled out
2) an always lost person logically cannot return again to wallowing in sin if he never left wallowing in sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works merit Salvation and denies Salvation by Grace through Faith !

Repeating this does not prove that obedience is a work of merit.

 

[brightfame52]

Repeating this does not prove that obedience is a work of merit.

I dont have to prove it. Truth is Truth whether its proved or not. 2 +2 = 4 whether its proved or not, a person may say it =5 no matter how much someone will try to prove is 4

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Obviously the context is not talking about literal dogs and sows

agree

but making a figurative or metahphorical comparison with a human who had once been saved by having sins washed away, sins were expelled out but has now returned again to those sins.

no, this is not true.

he was a dog. he tried to play like he was not a dog. but since he was a dog. he returned to his true nature. a dog eats his vomit.

God said he creates us into a new creature. why do you not believe him..We are no longer dogs.. or swine..

You want to overlook the fact those sins had been washed away, expelled out meaning the person was forgiven of sins.

If the person was always lost, never saved then;
1) it cannot be said that person had sins washed, expelled out
2) an always lost person logically cannot return again to wallowing in sin if he never left wallowing in sin.

lol. It says a dog returned to what he was. because that is his nature

He was always a dog.

if he was created a new. he would have no longer been a dog..

the proverb says a dog returns to his vomit. a FOOL repeats his Folly (foolishness)

a fool is still a fool. thats why he repeats what he is..

 

[mailmandan]

what will it take for you to see? how many times must it be explained to you?

a Dog is a dog. when a dog is saved. he is no longer a dog. he is made into a new creation. So he does not act like a dog. because he is no longer a dog.

a dog returns to his vomit, because he was STILL a dog.

he did not lose salvation. He proved he was never saved by the fact he returned to his sin (vomit).

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from dogs and pigs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from dogs and pigs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

its sad people do not have faith that God changes his children and makes them new..

 

[brightfame52]

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from dogs and pigs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

The Sheep have always been Sheep even before they are born again, thats why they are born again, because their Shepherd died for them, then gives them a new nature, which identifies them as saved Sheep

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I dont have to prove it. Truth is Truth whether its proved or not. 2 +2 = 4 whether its proved or not, a person may say it =5 no matter how much someone will try to prove is 4

It's false since it cannot be proven that obedience is a work of merit. You are as much admitting your position cannot be proven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

agree


no, this is not true.

he was a dog. he tried to play like he was not a dog. but since he was a dog. he returned to his true nature. a dog eats his vomit.

God said he creates us into a new creature. why do you not believe him..We are no longer dogs.. or swine..

lol. It says a dog returned to what he was. because that is his nature

He was always a dog.

if he was created a new. he would have no longer been a dog..

the proverb says a dog returns to his vomit. a FOOL repeats his Folly (foolishness)

a fool is still a fool. thats why he repeats what he is..

You keep stating the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the verse is saying.

The context is speaking about those who in the past had been WASHED of their sins, thier sins had been PURGED but though their sins were forgiven in the past NOW they have returned to those sins are being now compared to dogs and sows.

--the context does not say they were always lost dogs and sows for it DOES say they were once washed and purged.

--the context does not say their sins were "not really" washed or purged for it is a given FACT that they in the past were forgiven, were washed, were purged of their sins. You keep arguing they were never forgiven never washed, never purged which is the exact opposite of what the verse states as fact.

These are idea you continue to add to the text to provide cover for your OSAS idea.

Facts given in the context that you refuse to see about these people Peter says are apostates:
1) they had been "bought"......redeemed verse 1
2) they "have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray" logically one cannot forsake the right way and go astray if one was never in the right way and always astray, v15
3) "they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein," logically if they were "never saved" then they never escaped the pollutions of this world and logically could not be entangled AGAIN if they were always entangled v20
4) "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" logically they could not turn away from the way of righteousness if they were never really in righteousness. v21
5) they had bee washed and purged of sins which cannot be true if they never really were washed and purged of sins v20.

Apostate means to turn from a previous standing. They turned from being bought, v1 turned from being in the right way v15, turned from being untangled to tangled AGAIN is sin, turn from being washed, purged to sin AGAIN. These people in the past were bought, forgiven people but now have turned away from that previous saved standing and NOW in their lost state are compared to dogs and sows. IT DOES NOT SAY THEY WERE ALWAYS DOGS AND SOWS. You keep adding that idea to the text.

OSAS makes the word apostate meaningless. It makes the word 'again' meaningless. It makes the whole chapter senseless and meaningless.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

its sad people do not have faith that God changes his children and makes them new..

it's sad you keep rewriting the context adding ideas to it WHILE IGNORING THE FACTS THAT ARE GIVEN in order to provide cover the false ideas of OSAS.

 

[brightfame52]

It's false since it cannot be proven that obedience is a work of merit. You are as much admitting your position cannot be proven.

Its True whether its proven to you or not, your judgment not the criteria. You condition salvation on something you did, then what you did was meritorious.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

it's sad you keep rewriting the context adding ideas to it WHILE IGNORING THE FACTS THAT ARE GIVEN in order to provide cover the false ideas of OSAS.

I believe ETERNAL life is eternal..

I believe when God says we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. he means it

I believe when God says we will NEVER perish, he means it

I believe when he says he will NEVER lose one of his. he means it

I believe when he says NO ONE (we are someone so no one includes us) can snatch us out of his hands, he means it

I could care less about OSAS what I care about is what God says about his children.

You want to believe God does not keep his promise. feel free..

You can answer to God why you do not trust him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I believe ETERNAL life is eternal..

I believe when God says we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. he means it

I believe when God says we will NEVER perish, he means it

I believe when he says he will NEVER lose one of his. he means it

I believe when he says NO ONE (we are someone so no one includes us) can snatch us out of his hands, he means it

I could care less about OSAS what I care about is what God says about his children.

You want to believe God does not keep his promise. feel free..

You can answer to God why you do not trust him.

Eternal life is eternal for those who attain it on judgment day. No one in this life has eternal life but can possess the promise of eternal life (1 Jn 2:25) and that promise is CONDITIONAL upon the Christian's CONTINUE obedience. Hence those reprobates Peter speaks about lost that promise. There is no such thing as cheap grace whereby a Christian can attain eternal life regardless of how the Christian lives. The Christian must live an obedient life or forfiet that promise.

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Those that are sealed are those who are in and faithfully remain in the group called Christian and it takes obedience to be in and remain in this sealed group. There is no such thing as individuals being UNconditionally sealed separate and apart from this group. If one falls from the group due to unbeleif, the group remains sealed but that apostate who falls awy is no longer sealed. Those Ephesians whom Paul said was sealed in Eph 1:13, we find some 25 or so years later were going to fall away from that sealed group CHristian (having their candlestick removed by God) haven fallen and left their first love, (Rev 2:1-7). Rev 2:4-5 would be impossible if OSAS were true.

The idea of being sealed was also found in the OT. The Greek word Paul used for sealed (sphragizō) in Eph 1:13, Paul used a root word form of that word in Rom 4:11 (sphragis). "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" All Jews received this seal of circumcision yet it was not a seal that provided UNconditional salvation fro we know from Romans 11 that those Jews were cast off due to unbelief. Being sealed, both OT and NT, has always been CONDITIONAL upon continued obedience to God.

Rom 11:20-21

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

--though those Jews were sealed, they were God's elect yet they were broken off due to unbelief, no OSAS for the Jews
--one cannot be broken off from something they were never really attached to.
--the Gentiles were graffed in yet warned not to be hihminded lest that receove the same fate as the Jew...broken off like the Jew. We have Jews broken off due to unbelief, Gentiles graffed in yet warned they would face the same fate as the Jews and be broken off if they became highminded...all of which is impossible if OSAS were true.

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John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

We have to have v27 with v28 for v27 tells us who the pronouns 'them' and 'they' refer to. To be of 'them' and 'they' according to verse 27 requires one to be CONDITIONALLY a sheep of Christ. But to be a sheep of Christ requires one to CONDITIONALLY hear and follow. The present tense of the verbs hear and follow show an action that must CONDITIONALLY be sustained and ongoing. Hence eternal life is not UNconditional for contions are place all upon it in these two verses.

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God does certainly keep His promises for it is impossible for God to lie. Yet God does not keep promises He never made and He never made salvation an UNconditional promise.

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John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

The ones that God gives to Christ per v39 are the ones who 'cometh' to Christ in v37 and the ones who cometh to Christ are the ones that are saved. The word 'give' refers to the plan of salvation that God has provided for man for man to be saved. Those who cometh refers to those who accepted that gospel plan in obedience to it. Hence those who CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE (present tense) cometh to Christ (and believeth, verse 35) are the ones that Christ should not lose. Those that quit believing and coming to Christ will be lost. No verse teaches that God UNconditionally gives men to Christ or that Christ UNconditionally keeps the Christian regardless of how that Christian lives.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Its True whether its proven to you or not, your judgment not the criteria. You condition salvation on something you did, then what you did was meritorious.

It's not true simply because you say so.

No verse says that making obedience a condition to receiving God's free gift makes obedience a work of merit....no verse.

 

[Gottservant]

The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:

[...]

You understand that it is a work, now make it a priority.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise. 29

 

[brightfame52]

It's not true simply because you say so.

No verse says that making obedience a condition to receiving God's free gift makes obedience a work of merit....no verse.

Its true because scripture is against salvation conditioned on mans works.

 

[brightfame52]

You understand that it is a work, now make it a priority.

I dont know what you talking about. I know if you condition anything you do resulting in your salvation, its works salvation which is an enemy to Grace.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe ETERNAL life is eternal..

I believe when God says we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. he means it

I believe when God says we will NEVER perish, he means it

I believe when he says he will NEVER lose one of his. he means it

I believe when he says NO ONE (we are someone so no one includes us) can snatch us out of his hands, he means it

I could care less about OSAS what I care about is what God says about his children.

You want to believe God does not keep his promise. feel free..

You can answer to God why you do not trust him.

Amen! Don't expect works-salvationists to understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14) Furthermore, in regards to 2 Peter 2:20, compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside. (2 Peter 2:20) But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.