Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I don't think you answered my question. If you spend a week studying a single word in the Bible, you are going to get to the other very important words.
Is believing/faith a work ?
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An activity of the mind is a work ! If you condition your salvation on any activity you do, its works salvation and opposed to salvation by grace !
Again:
If you condition salvation on what you believe that God enabled you to do, thats works salvation.
Its a dumb question considering every word is being emphasized !
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
No where did I pr scripture say only one word is pure .
Well then, confessing Christ with your mouth is a work and salvation is therefore by works. Why do you ignore context in your interpretation of the doctrines of grace? Paul only denies works in his Epistles when contrasting faith with the works of the law. Even the book of Galatians is addressing the false teaching that sanctification is accomplished by the works of the law. If you want to be hypertechnical in interpretation then breathing is a work, speaking is a work, nodding your head is a work. Every biological function in animal physiology expends energy and could be called a work. Stop burying your head in didactics and join us in the real world. God never required us to be dead and lifeless in order to receive His grace. Your assertions are an absurdity.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
If thinking is working/doing some thing, then Noah could have built the ark just by sitting and thinking about building it???
Would Noah have been saved from the flood void of his activity in building the ark? No. Would Naaman been cured void of his activity in dipping 7 times in the river? No. And their "activity" did not earn them God's free gift either.
works equals merit !
Rom 4:4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward [eternal inheritance or life] not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Understand that Eternal Life, Salvation is an Inheritance, Paul when writing to the Galatians in chpt 3 writes Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Its an eternal inheritance Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Its a heavenly inheritance 1 Pet 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Now if we receive this Salvation, Eternal Life, or Eternal inheritance because of a condition we performed, like faith, or repentance, then whatever that condition is constitutes a quality or qualification within us, which is a basis for merit which is:
something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.
That act or condition one performs to get eternal life/inheritance becomes a meritorious act or condition, and there's no way around it ! One may say that faith and or repentance are acts we must to get eternal life, but they are not meritorious , are deceived, because thats exactly what they are !4
Rom 4:4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward [eternal inheritance or life] not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Understand that Eternal Life, Salvation is an Inheritance, Paul when writing to the Galatians in chpt 3 writes Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Its an eternal inheritance Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Its a heavenly inheritance 1 Pet 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Now if we receive this Salvation, Eternal Life, or Eternal inheritance because of a condition we performed, like faith, or repentance, then whatever that condition is constitutes a quality or qualification within us, which is a basis for merit which is:
something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.
That act or condition one performs to get eternal life/inheritance becomes a meritorious act or condition, and there's no way around it ! One may say that faith and or repentance are acts we must to get eternal life, but they are not meritorious , are deceived, because thats exactly what they are !4
If you condition salvation on what you believe that God enabled you to do, thats works salvation.
Yep thinking is a work, its an activity of the mind. If you condition salvation on your thinking, thats conditioning your salvation on your works.
The word ergon the Holy Spirit is pleased to use for work means:
érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).
any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind
an act, deed, thing done:
a good deed, noble action
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
If you spend an entire lifetime studying one word in the Bible, then what happens to the other 999 pages of words?
If we say we are saved because of our obedience to a law or command then consequently we are saved by our merit! Such a claim denies Justification by grace. Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:5
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:5
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Produce the Bible verse that calls obedience to God's will a work of merit.
Was the salvation of Noah from the flood by grace or Noah merited it by doing the work in building the ark?
The cleansing of Naaman's disease by grace or was merited by his work in dipping in the Jordan 7 times?
You purposely define obedience the wrong way in order to then attack it.
No one's obedience is going to be perfectly sinless, how then can a imperfect, flawed obedience merit any thing? Grace is needed to cover the gap imperfect obedience/sin creates between God and man.
If one could flawlessly keep God's law then he would have no sin and the sinless are not in need of grace therefore his reward would not be of grace but something owed him due to his perfect law keeping, (Romans 4:4). But again, no one's obedience will be perfectly flawless so obedience cannot earn/merit the reward, therefore it must be by grace.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
So Noah just thinking about building the ark would have gotten the ark built. Incredible.
The definition of ergon you gave is "a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose)." (my emp)
Noah just thinking about building the ark would not get the ark built. He would have to "carry out" (work) those thoughts in order to have the ark. So just thinking/faith only and not putting those thoughts in action would have had Noah lost in the flood. A faith that saves is one that carries out God's commands and not one that just thinks about carrying out God's commands.
If we say we are saved because of our obedience to a law or command then consequently we are saved by our merit! Such a claim denies Justification by grace. Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Faith is a work, a act of the mind which gives assent, recognition, acknowledgement to Gods Testimony.
Believing is founded on faith received and it is a work, but it's not of your own works, such is of the Holy Spirit that give such to you and you abide in such.
Now the weeds can come up and strangle what was given, due to the deceptions and delusions of this world ? so one of little faith ? one who had got a glimmer of faith can loose it or have such undermined in ones walk subdued but it's still planted but hidden. due to the weeds of this world, the cares of this world dominate you ? Now one did not have the faith that can move mountains ? That is what is called Truly born again ! no one can pluck such a one out of Gods hand in fact, They know the Father and the Son because they are one with the Holy Spirit and abide in the Vine.
Faith is the substance of the Gift and such can grow, but one must seek and come to that Well Spring to drink to grow in Faith.
Now the weeds can come up and strangle what was given, due to the deceptions and delusions of this world ? so one of little faith ? one who had got a glimmer of faith can loose it or have such undermined in ones walk subdued but it's still planted but hidden. due to the weeds of this world, the cares of this world dominate you ? Now one did not have the faith that can move mountains ? That is what is called Truly born again ! no one can pluck such a one out of Gods hand in fact, They know the Father and the Son because they are one with the Holy Spirit and abide in the Vine.
Faith is the substance of the Gift and such can grow, but one must seek and come to that Well Spring to drink to grow in Faith.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You're belief in Luther's faith only has got you 'thinking' bazaar things like Noah could just think about building the ark and the ark would just magically appear out of thin air. Paul was incorrect when he said "work out your own salvation" he should have said think out you own salvation. James 2:25 Rahab was justified when she THOUGHT about receiving the messengers and then THOUGHT about sending them out another way. James 2:24 you see how by THINKING a man is justified. James 2:21 Abraham was justified by his THOUGHTS when he THOUGHT about offering Isaac.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Disobedience to God's law or command is sin/doing unrighteousness so you are claiming men are saved not by obeying God but by disobeying God????
Since you claim obeying God is a work of merit, then if we substitute "work of merit" for "obedience" in the following verses, then we have:
Romans 6:16 Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" should read works of merit unto righteousness.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; but should say Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all then that do works of merit.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" should read in flaming fire, God will take vengeance upon those who have no works of merit.
Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." but ye have done works of merit that freed you from sin.
Hebrews 8:11 "by faith Abraham...obeyed" should read by faith Abraham did works of merit.
Hebrews 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;" Christ learned works of merit by the things which he suffered.
Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." by the works of merit of one many shall be made righteous.
First and foremost to be Justified by Faith and it not be our work, it must be the subjective faith of Christ in His Suretyship obedience and faithfulness unto the will of God for us that Justifies us before God, otherwise, justified by our own faith is nothing but being justified by our works, something done by us, which is flat out contrary to justification by grace.
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