Is believing/faith a work ?

Kermos · Mar 8, 2023

@Ernest T. Bass

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

(1) you ignore Philippians 2:12 relation to Philippians 2:13 where God works the will of believers to obey, (2) you think "good" fruit by you is caused by you, yet we Christians know our good fruit is caused by God because it is fruit of the Spirit, (3) you confuse what scripture states such as in Hebrews 3:12, and (4) you didn't know why the Old Testament was written. (post in this thread), and there is some about perseverance of the saints by God in the post, too.

The contradiction illuminated between "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29) contrasted against "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) post in this thread exhibits your traditions of men fail (Matthew 15:9).

This post preludes the examination of your post in 5 segments:

SEGMENT 1: your heart adulterates Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) into the words of Ernest T. Bass "you of the office of an Apostle did not choose Me, but I chose you for the office of an Apostle only".
SEGMENT 2: Commands show who is of who or what, and people in Old Testament times were unable to keep the commandments for the Apostle Peter declared "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).
SEGMENT 3: God works believers repentance.
SEGMENT 4: the first state of being for people is opposition against God.
SEGMENT 5: you wickedly call God "insane", "cruel", "sadistic", and "evil" - EVEN "EVIL" - yet God loves the children of God soooooo much that God exclusively saves us incapable wretches from the wrath of God.

VCO · Mar 8, 2023

brightfame52 said:
The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

The mind is :

(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.

Now you are going to make me DEFINE what is REAL FAITH, which is the Opposite of Self Generated Faith.

You see, I have had both in my life. Self Generated Faith can NEVER SAVE YOU. I thought I was a Christian just because I believed the Stories about Jesus were True, and because I took up space on Pew most of the Sundays. At 29 years of age, raised in a Church; YET, I attempted suicide 3 times the last week of December 1977. The first two times I had a Pistol with the trigger half pulled, against my Temple. I MEAN, SHEAR TERROR overwhelmed me, BECAUSE I KNEW I WAS IN THE GATES OF HELL/HADES, ready to WALK RIGHT IN. NO DOUBT IN MY MIND, I was right there, ready to Walk right IN. I knew for sure I WAS NOT SAVED.

That is when a tremendous GUILT for my WHOLE LIFESTYLE, kept washing over me, and I began to weep and MOURN of that sinfulness, LOUDER than a baby. Crying out to the LORD OVER AND OVER AGAIN. PLEASE LORD, FORGIVE ME, PLEASE LORD FORGIVE MY SINFULNESS!

I usually don't tell this Part of my Testimony, because it is something so different. I was having great difficulty that HE could forgive me for all that I had done. HE knew that, and HE snatched me up, and instantly I was literally at the FOOT OF THE CROSS ON MY KNEES as I continued to CRY OUT, PLEASE LORD, FORGIVE ME, PLEASE LORD FORGIVE MY SINFULNESS! It had to be a Vision, my arms were raised up to HIM, AND THEN I NOTICED SOMETHING THAT SEEMED STRANGE AT THAT TIME. THE NAILS WERE NOT IN THE PALM OF HIS HANDS. They were in HIS WRISTS! (I have learned sense then, the JEWS do not consider the wrists to be a separate part of body, but PART OF HIS HANDS.) I looked at both of those NAILS, and blood came out, and fell on my outstretched forearms. That is where the Vision ENDED, and I knew I was Forgiven.

Now that was never in my head before, and IT WAS NOT NOW, EVEN IN MY HEAD, IT WAS A DEEP, DEEP in my HEART, NEVER TO LEAVE ME AGAIN. It was FROM GOD, a GIFT to me, Nothing Could I CONSIDER IT OF MYSELF. HE DID IT ALL!

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Gottservant · Mar 10, 2023

Jesus said "until now, My Father has been working, and I have been working"

He did not say "until now My Father's grace is all that has been working"

We are supposed to enter in to work, until our works come alongside the works of God.

VCO · Mar 11, 2023

Gottservant said:
Jesus said "until now, My Father has been working, and I have been working"

He did not say "until now My Father's grace is all that has been working"

We are supposed to enter in to work, until our works come alongside the works of God.

..................UNTIL HE COMES!

The Difference is Works does nothing to Save you, because you were Saved before time began.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

There you have it, WORKS, are a result of HIS CHANGING US, not to get Salvation, or to Maintain it, but proves HE CHANGED US before time began, however it took me 29 years to realize it, and Surrender to HIM.

Oh yes, I absolutely believe in Predestination:

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory. (That is not a work, it is part of the gospel of salvation, a gift from GOD. JESUS DID IT ALL.)
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it. Thank You Jesus!

Gottservant · Mar 12, 2023

VCO said:
.........
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it. Thank You Jesus!

You quote me, that I am justified, yet what I do being justified is irrelevant, to you?

Justification brings hope, and hope brings power.

It's like the tradition of "whatever I do as a son, for you my parents, is a gift to God" Christ hates that!

God foresees the work we are going to do, that's why He glorifies us!

Gottservant · Mar 12, 2023

I am excited to see, how my works match those, that God glorified me for.

"He who seeks the glory of the one who sent him, has no unrighteousness in him" (from memory, the gospel)

VCO · Mar 13, 2023

Gottservant said:
You quote me, that I am justified, yet what I do being justified is irrelevant, to you?

Justification brings hope, and hope brings power.

It's like the tradition of "whatever I do as a son, for you my parents, is a gift to God" Christ hates that!

God foresees the work we are going to do, that's why He glorifies us!

I think you got the wrong idea about Glorification. That is the Sinless body after we are raised or in the Rapture. Right now we are Forgiven, but still have a body that sins, even tho we strive not to. NO, it is NOT because HE sees the work we do that you think, "why He glorifies us!" You may be headed for a lesson in humiliation the HARD way.

Psalm 14:3 (ESV)
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Genesis 43:9 (YLT)
9 I—I am surety for him, from my hand thou dost require him; if I have not brought him in unto thee, and set him before thee—then I have sinned against thee all the days;

Romans 3:23 (NCV)
23 All have sinned and are not good enough for God’s glory,

You see, my attitude is this: Anything good I do, it is not me doing it, it is Christ in me doing it.
Anything Bad I do, it is me that sinned, not HIM. Try to learn what all GOD considers SIN, that will go a long ways to have that same attitude that I have. It is through HIS MERCY, that HE FORGIVES US AND GLORIFIES US. Like I said, we do not deserve a pat on the back for SELF, not at all,

Let me show you how Paul handled it.

Romans 7:17-25 (ESV)
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

We will not be rid of that sin in the flesh, until we get the GLORIFIED BODY at the resurrection or the Rapture.

Gottservant · Mar 13, 2023

VCO said:
I think you got the wrong idea about Glorification. That is the Sinless body after we are raised or in the Rapture. Right now we are Forgiven, but still have a body that sins, even tho we strive not to. NO, it is NOT because HE sees the work we do that you think, "why He glorifies us!" You may be headed for a lesson in humiliation the HARD way.

[...]

We will not be rid of that sin in the flesh, until we get the GLORIFIED BODY at the resurrection or the Rapture.

As soon as it looks like I will be justified, you say "no, that happens later"!

Remember what was said "those worthy of that age [...] do not die, but are like angels in Heaven": does someone like an angel, still need to remind themselves that what they have is by the Grace of God? No! For God is realized in them! Do they need to remind God that He has given them Grace? No! For the works of God are already afoot!

What we need is a way, for God to pity both of us. I want His mercy, but you want His righteousness. I can wait if I need to, but you need to start to work in the way the Holy Spirit leads. God will pity us, when we see eye to eye, for works or faith, either way.

If we both have confidence and can be quiet, then we will have strength (Isaiah 30:15)

VCO · Mar 13, 2023

Gottservant said:
As soon as it looks like I will be justified, you say "no, that happens later"!

Remember what was said "those worthy of that age [...] do not die, but are like angels in Heaven": does someone like an angel, still need to remind themselves that what they have is by the Grace of God? No! For God is realized in them! Do they need to remind God that He has given them Grace? No! For the works of God are already afoot!

What we need is a way, for God to pity both of us. I want His mercy, but you want His righteousness. I can wait if I need to, but you need to start to work in the way the Holy Spirit leads. God will pity us, when we see eye to eye, for works or faith, either way.

If we both have confidence and can be quiet, then we will have strength (Isaiah 30:15)

I think you are misunderstanding me.
Salvation was a GIFT From GOD. The moment He Planned how to SAVE US.

We were not worthy to be saved, nor can we earn it, as SALVATION IS TOO HIGH A PRICE FOR US TO EARN IN A THOUSAND LIFE TIMES. Yet, OUT OF HIS MERCY HE GAVE IT TO US as a FREE GIFT. To Show our LOVE for HIM, we try to do what PLEASES HIM. That is the only Purpose for WORKS, it is out of pure LOVE FOR HIM. AND IT IS NOT OUR DOING, it is CHRIST IN US DOING THE WORK.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

How is that Possible?

2 Timothy 2:19 (HCSB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, having this inscription: The Lord knows those who are His, and Everyone who names the name of the Lord must turn away from unrighteousness.

HE Foreknew us.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.

Rom 3:23 [NASB77]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in
Christ Jesus;

One more scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Gottservant · Mar 13, 2023

VCO said:
View attachment 30363

I think you are misunderstanding me.
Salvation was a GIFT From GOD. The moment He Planned how to SAVE US.

I think what you are missing though, is that God completed our works, by faith when we believed.

We should be inspired to finish the works of God, with God.

That's how Jesus sees God, as working with Him.

VCO · Mar 14, 2023

Gottservant said:
I think what you are missing though, is that God completed our works, by faith when we believed.

We should be inspired to finish the works of God, with God.

That's how Jesus sees God, as working with Him.

You would be wrong then, here let me show you:

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (the Rapture.)

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the
hope of eternal life.

Gottservant · Mar 14, 2023

VCO said:
You would be wrong then, here let me show you:

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (the Rapture.)

Yes, (He does it) but not alone!

VCO said:
Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

You said it yourself "both to desire and to work" - God is doing that in me, right now!

VCO said:
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

For which we should be inspired to work!

VCO · Mar 15, 2023

Gottservant said:
Yes, (He does it) but not alone!

You said it yourself "both to desire and to work" - God is doing that in me, right now!

For which we should be inspired to work!

NO, you do not get any of the CREDIT. HE is in you, and HE ALONE gets the Credit for doing good works. OTHERWISE YOU ARE ROBBING CREDIT FROM JESUS THAT TRULY BELONGS SOLELY TO HIM.

Galatians 2:20 (ESV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

YOU ONLY GET TO SMELL THE ROSES, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GROWING THAT ROSE (GOOD WORK).

Romans 3:10-12 (NKJV)
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

I Pray that you will soon to get off your high horse, humble yourself, and TRULY REPENT, and give JESUS FULL CREDIT for all the good HE is doing through you.

Gottservant · Mar 15, 2023

VCO said:
NO, you do not get any of the CREDIT. HE is in you, and HE ALONE gets the Credit for doing good works. OTHERWISE YOU ARE ROBBING CREDIT FROM JESUS THAT TRULY BELONGS SOLELY TO HIM.

[...]

YOU ONLY GET TO SMELL THE ROSES, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GROWING THAT ROSE (GOOD WORK).

[...]

You said it yourself "you get to do something, just not from the outset"

Jesus gets credit, that I wouldn't have done it (the good works) had it not been for Him, but He doesn't supplant my doing it.

Jesus told you about traditions that cancel out the command of God, you need to examine your relationship with the Holy Spirit - that you are doing (what you do) according to inspiration He gave.

I can achieve more, knowing God is for me, than assuming its all done, presuming God will continue to condescend. It's about a relationship, a giving and a taking.

VCO · Mar 15, 2023

Gottservant said:
You said it yourself "you get to do something, just not from the outset"

Jesus gets credit, that I wouldn't have done it (the good works) had it not been for Him, but He doesn't supplant my doing it.

Jesus told you about traditions that cancel out the command of God, you need to examine your relationship with the Holy Spirit - that you are doing (what you do) according to inspiration He gave.

I can achieve more, knowing God is for me, than assuming its all done, presuming God will continue to condescend. It's about a relationship, a giving and a taking.

You are totally misunderstanding me. I said you show you LOVE for HIM, by doing what pleases HIM. IT COUNTS ZERO for your SALVATION. BUT GUESS WHAT, HE GIVES YOU THAT ABILITY TO DO WHAT PLEASES HIM, HE GIVE YOU THAT ABILITY TO LOVE HIM BACK, so YOU get NO Credit, it all belongs to JESUS. You are trying to ROB Jesus of the Credit that truly belongs to HIM.

Proverbs 18:12 (NASB)
12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, But humility goes before honor.

Gottservant · Mar 15, 2023

VCO said:
You are totally misunderstanding me. I said you show you LOVE for HIM, by doing what pleases HIM. IT COUNTS ZERO for your SALVATION. BUT GUESS WHAT, HE GIVES YOU THAT ABILITY TO DO WHAT PLEASES HIM, HE GIVE YOU THAT ABILITY TO LOVE HIM BACK, so YOU get NO Credit, it all belongs to JESUS. You are trying to ROB Jesus of the Credit that truly belongs to HIM.

Proverbs 18:12 (NASB)
12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, But humility goes before honor.

Yes (salvation by grace is important), but credit is the wrong concept altogether.

We do what we do, because we Love Christ, and we love Him in part, because He is not clamorous for glory.

Well, if Christ is not clamourous for glory, why should we be? Creating a tradition of self-effacing fealty is exactly that?

We will see, at the Great White Throne Judgment, whether more works were inspired by Grace for Grace's sake, or Inspiration for Inspiration's sake.

Gottservant · Mar 15, 2023

Don't be embarrassed that your works are meagre, to begin with: keep looking to Christ!

He has completed your works, all that remains is for you to be inspired!

VCO · Mar 16, 2023

Gottservant said:
Yes (salvation by grace is important), but credit is the wrong concept altogether.

We do what we do, because we Love Christ, and we love Him in part, because He is not clamorous for glory.

Well, if Christ is not clamourous for glory, why should we be? Creating a tradition of self-effacing fealty is exactly that?

We will see, at the Great White Throne Judgment, whether more works were inspired by Grace for Grace's sake, or Inspiration for Inspiration's sake.

I suppose that you are one of those that wants a big Mansion on the Street of GOLD.
To me that is nothing but GREED.

Believe what you what to believe, and I will believe the BIBLE.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith;
not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done,
so that nobody can claim the credit.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

I am not the one that wants the biggest mansion on the Street of GOLD.
I will be satisfied with a simple cabin out back on the Crystal River.

Gottservant · Mar 16, 2023

VCO said:
Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Again, you said it yourself "both to desire and to work out" - not to exhaust Grace, but to work alongside the Grace of God.

VCO said:
2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Again, thankyou for your inspiration, I had not comprehended that my competence is from God. That helps, actually. I should be paying attention to God's excellence, as I work.

If you agree with me on that, then we agree!

VCO · Mar 16, 2023

Gottservant said:
Again, you said it yourself "both to desire and to work out" - not to exhaust Grace, but to work alongside the Grace of God.

Again, thankyou for your inspiration, I had not comprehended that my competence is from God. That helps, actually. I should be paying attention to God's excellence, as I work.

If you agree with me on that, then we agree!

You Do Not Get what those Verses Mean, do you.

Are you sure you are Born Again ? Seems to you are not.

Romans 3:10-12 (YLT)
10 according as it hath been written--`There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God.
12 All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.

Born Again Believers understand that the Son is in you Both the desire is HIS, and the Working Out is HIS DOING IN YOU.

You are seeking CREDIT for YOURSELF.

Is believing/faith a work ?

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