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Kermos

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Not one of the verses you cite say man is born a sinner. Jeremiah does state man is deveitful and wicked but he does NOT state HOW man got that way, He dos NOT say man is innately, unconditionally born wicked and sinful. You read your ideas into the verses. No verse states infants are born deceitful and wicked but they can with intellectual maturity of learning bwtween right and wrong BECOME deceitful and wicked.

If one accepts the BIble's teaching on sin then one must reject the heresy of original sin. The Bible teaches if there where no law there would be no transgression (Rom 4:15) and John says sin is transgression of the law. Therefore the only way for one to BECOME a sinner is by CONDITIONALLY transgressing God's law. Original sin falsely tries to make one a sinner who has not transgressed God's law.

3 Jn 1:11; James 4:17; 1 Pet 3:11 man can "do good" but no man can do good in doing absolute, sinless perfection as God Who is perfectly good, Mk 10:18.

Your writings are contrary to the teachings in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

You lied. The following scripture was proclaimed to you in the post to which you replied, but in your self-will, you neglected or ignored the scripture.

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "The heart is NOT deceitful above all things, and NOT desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating, again.

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating the Word of God such that it is no longer the Word of God but the mere word of man.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).
 

Gottservant

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The problem is, that in sin, we do not know how to encourage our spirit.

We say "I'm saved, it must have been grace (the Grace of God)"

The thing is, you need to go further than that: and say "if it was Grace, I would know, because it will have inspired good works".

And where do we get those good works? From the Holy Spirit! Grace begins to do something!
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Your writings are contrary to the teachings in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

You lied. The following scripture was proclaimed to you in the post to which you replied, but in your self-will, you neglected or ignored the scripture.

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "The heart is NOT deceitful above all things, and NOT desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating, again.

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating the Word of God such that it is no longer the Word of God but the mere word of man.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).
David did not say he was born a sinner in Psa 51:5, men read that idea into the verse...see how the NIV perverted this verse compared to accurate trnaslations and therefore the NIV is a corrupt translation of it. Your wrong interpretation of Psa 51:5. contradicts how the BIble defines sin per Rom 4:15; Rom 7:8-9; 1 Jn 3:4. David is using very poetic, figurative language and whatever interpretation one places upon that figurative language cannot contradict other verses on the subject. You interpretation does for a fact contradict other verses about how the Bible defines sin therefore you intrepretation must be rejected.

Eze 18
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
.

The context is the fathers sinned and as a consequence of their sinning God allowed Israel to go into captivity for 70 years. While in captivity, there were generations that were born and those captive generations were falsely claiming the father sinned yet they were being made accountable/responsible for sins they had not committed. This proverb they were saying was an attack against the justice of God for the perfect justice, righteouness of God does not punish the innocent of the guilt of another. Hence God puts the false saying to rest by pointing out each person is accountable for his own sin....soul that sinneth it shall die. Original sin is just as false as this proverbs of those captive generations in that original sin has Adam eating sour grapes and mankind's teeth are set on edge. Original sin makes children acountable for the sins of their fathers is just as false as the saying of those Israelites in captivity. Even in our justice/court system we have today innocent people are not tried and held accountable/responsible for the crimes of another for such would be considered a miscarriage of justice. God does not miscarriage justice either by holding an innocent person accoutable for another person's sins.







Again, the BIble does say men are sinful but NO VERSE says man is born sinful,,,,you are reading that idea into the verses. Rom 9:11 before children are born, they have done no good or evil meaning children are not born sinners since they have done no sin. Hence children are born neutral, innocent..they are born as a blank slate then upon intellectually maturing learning right from wrong (Isa 7:15-16; Deut 1:39) then become accountable to God's law choosing to sin (Rom 7:8-9) THEN become sinners. The idea of one being a sinner BEFORE one has even sinned is completely antagonistic to the teachings of the Bible. No one can be a sinner before they sin as no one can be righteous before they ever do God's righteousness. Sin and righteousness are not just abstract ideas that are unconditionally, randomlly passed from person to person.
 
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Titus

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"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5)
All are born into a sinful world, "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity."

David's mother's sin he was conceived in, "and in sin my mother conceived me."

Mother and world born into = sin
David born baby = sinless.
 

Titus

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Hebrews 18:3,
- and said, Assuredly, I say to you unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
 

Rightglory

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David did not say he was born a sinner in Psa 51:5, men read that idea into the verse...see how the NIV perverted this verse compared to accurate trnaslations and therefore the NIV is a corrupt translation of it. Your wrong interpretation of Psa 51:5. contradicts how the BIble defines sin per Rom 4:15; Rom 7:8-9; 1 Jn 3:4. David is using very poetic, figurative language and whatever interpretation one places upon that figurative language cannot contradict other verses on the subject. You interpretation does for a fact contradict other verses about how the Bible defines sin therefore you intrepretation must be rejected.

Eze 18
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
.

The context is the fathers sinned and as a consequence of their sinning God allowed Israel to go into captivity for 70 years. While in captivity, there were generations that were born and those captive generations were falsely claiming the father sinned yet they were being made accountable/responsible for sins they had not committed. This proverb they were saying was an attack against the justice of God for the perfect justice, righteouness of God does not punish the innocent of the guilt of another. Hence God puts the false saying to rest by pointing out each person is accountable for his own sin....soul that sinneth it shall die. Original sin is just as false as this proverbs of those captive generations in that original sin has Adam eating sour grapes and mankind's teeth are set on edge. Original sin makes children acountable for the sins of their fathers is just as false as the saying of those Israelites in captivity. Even in our justice/court system we have today innocent people are not tried and held accountable/responsible for the crimes of another for such would be considered a miscarriage of justice. God does not miscarriage justice either by holding an innocent person accoutable for another person's sins.







Again, the BIble does say men are sinful but NO VERSE says man is born sinful,,,,you are reading that idea into the verses. Rom 9:11 before children are born, they have done no good or evil meaning children are not born sinners since they have done no sin. Hence children are born neutral, innocent..they are born as a blank slate then upon intellectually maturing learning right from wrong (Isa 7:15-16; Deut 1:39) then become accountable to God's law choosing to sin (Rom 7:8-9) THEN become sinners. The idea of one being a sinner BEFORE one has even sinned is completely antagonistic to the teachings of the Bible. No one can be a sinner before they sin as no one can be righteous before they ever do God's righteousness. Sin and righteousness are not just abstract ideas that are unconditionally, randomlly passed from person to person.
The idea that man was or was not born a sinner was challenged in the 4th and 5th century between Pelagius and Augustine. In the end both were incorrect and unscriptural. Pelagius believed all men were born in the same state as Adam was created. They each sinned and become mortal. Poor man could not even recognize reality, let alone scripture.
Augustine in building his interpretation went to far the other way and said that all men were imputed with the sin of Adam, thus the doctrine of Original Sin. A theory that later entered into dogma of the RC in the 11th century with Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement which included Original Sin. Unfortunately almost all of western theology, definitely every reformer adopted the Satisfaction theory along with Original Sin theory.
It is quite easy to determine the truth when we come to understanding the Incarnation of Christ. If Original Sin was scriptural truth, then Christ was also born a sinner. After all, He took on our human nature and if that nature was imputed sin as Augustine wants, then we have a huge issue.
The RC apparently realized their error. So they began teaching the "Immaculate Conception of Mary." in the 12 century. However, it did not become dogma, a stated doctrine until 1854. It like two errors will make it right.
The scriptural Truth is that man is not born a sinner, he becomes one.
Philosophically the idea of imputing sin is impossible unless somehow one can impute guilt without the sin. Sin is an act of man. It is not a state of being as the word "sinner" implies. Thus we become sinners because we do acts of sin. We easily sin because of our mortal state of being.
 

Behold

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, then Christ was also born a sinner.

""""""Wherefore, as by one man, Adam, sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:."""""

Here is also what you are not understanding, Rightglory.

You get your Adamic nature from a Male., "by one man".
And that is your daddy, as you are his SEED.
You are the SEED of a sinner, fallen, who is of the Adamic nature...same as fallen Adam.
Sin is in your blood and not just in your head and heart.
That is why your body DIES.

Listen ....

Jesus, whom you just insulted, ... He is from the seed of His Father.
His Father is God.

So, think about that, before you again accuse the Holy Lord Jesus The Christ or even suggest that He is a sinner.
 

Kermos

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All are born into a sinful world, "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity."

David's mother's sin he was conceived in, "and in sin my mother conceived me."

Mother and world born into = sin
David born baby = sinless.

In Hebrew, the grammatical inflection of a word can indicate the person (first person "I", "me"; second person "you"; third person "he", "she", "it"), the gender (masculine, feminine, common), and the number (singular, plural); additionally, noun and verb agreement is established grammatically by inflection of the noun and the verb.

In "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalms 51:5), David's grammatical inflection defines David as the iniquitous person. "I was brought forth" comes from a single Hebrew word which is first person/common gender/singular; furthermore, "in iniquity" comes from another single Hebrew word which is common gender/singular. David applied the characteristic of "iniquity" to himself, and the common gender with first person makes this completely clear.

Your heart says that David said "I was brought into a world of iniquity" which is NOT what David wrote, truly David wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity".

Woa, the only sinless person of His own doings is the Lord Jesus Christ, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

David was not good because "No one is good except God alone " (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18),

You are nullifying the need for the Savior!
 
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Kermos

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David did not say he was born a sinner in Psa 51:5, men read that idea into the verse...see how the NIV perverted this verse compared to accurate trnaslations and therefore the NIV is a corrupt translation of it. Your wrong interpretation of Psa 51:5. contradicts how the BIble defines sin per Rom 4:15; Rom 7:8-9; 1 Jn 3:4. David is using very poetic, figurative language and whatever interpretation one places upon that figurative language cannot contradict other verses on the subject. You interpretation does for a fact contradict other verses about how the Bible defines sin therefore you intrepretation must be rejected.

Eze 18
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
.

The context is the fathers sinned and as a consequence of their sinning God allowed Israel to go into captivity for 70 years. While in captivity, there were generations that were born and those captive generations were falsely claiming the father sinned yet they were being made accountable/responsible for sins they had not committed. This proverb they were saying was an attack against the justice of God for the perfect justice, righteouness of God does not punish the innocent of the guilt of another. Hence God puts the false saying to rest by pointing out each person is accountable for his own sin....soul that sinneth it shall die. Original sin is just as false as this proverbs of those captive generations in that original sin has Adam eating sour grapes and mankind's teeth are set on edge. Original sin makes children acountable for the sins of their fathers is just as false as the saying of those Israelites in captivity. Even in our justice/court system we have today innocent people are not tried and held accountable/responsible for the crimes of another for such would be considered a miscarriage of justice. God does not miscarriage justice either by holding an innocent person accoutable for another person's sins.







Again, the BIble does say men are sinful but NO VERSE says man is born sinful,,,,you are reading that idea into the verses. Rom 9:11 before children are born, they have done no good or evil meaning children are not born sinners since they have done no sin. Hence children are born neutral, innocent..they are born as a blank slate then upon intellectually maturing learning right from wrong (Isa 7:15-16; Deut 1:39) then become accountable to God's law choosing to sin (Rom 7:8-9) THEN become sinners. The idea of one being a sinner BEFORE one has even sinned is completely antagonistic to the teachings of the Bible. No one can be a sinner before they sin as no one can be righteous before they ever do God's righteousness. Sin and righteousness are not just abstract ideas that are unconditionally, randomlly passed from person to person.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), and none of the verses you quote state that man is good, not even from birth, so you deceive.

"No one is good except God alone" (Jesus Christ the Lord, Mark 10:18).

In Hebrew, the grammatical inflection of a word can indicate the person (first person "I", "me"; second person "you"; third person "he", "she", "it"), the gender (masculine, feminine, common), and the number (singular, plural); additionally, noun and verb agreement is established grammatically by inflection of the noun and the verb.

In "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalms 51:5), David's grammatical inflection defines David as the iniquitous person. "I was brought forth" comes from a single Hebrew word which is first person/common gender/singular; furthermore, "in iniquity" comes from another single Hebrew word which is common gender/singular. David applied the characteristic of "iniquity" to himself, and the common gender with first person makes this completely clear.

Not one of the verses you cite say man is born a sinner. Jeremiah does state man is deveitful and wicked but he does NOT state HOW man got that way, He dos NOT say man is innately, unconditionally born wicked and sinful. You read your ideas into the verses. No verse states infants are born deceitful and wicked but they can with intellectual maturity of learning bwtween right and wrong BECOME deceitful and wicked.

If one accepts the BIble's teaching on sin then one must reject the heresy of original sin. The Bible teaches if there where no law there would be no transgression (Rom 4:15) and John says sin is transgression of the law. Therefore the only way for one to BECOME a sinner is by CONDITIONALLY transgressing God's law. Original sin falsely tries to make one a sinner who has not transgressed God's law.

3 Jn 1:11; James 4:17; 1 Pet 3:11 man can "do good" but no man can do good in doing absolute, sinless perfection as God Who is perfectly good, Mk 10:18.

Your writings are contrary to the Word of God as shown in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "The heart is NOT deceitful above all things, and NOT desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating, again.

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating the Word of God such that it is no longer the Word of God but the mere word of man.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).

Your heart nullifies the need for the Savior!
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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The idea that man was or was not born a sinner was challenged in the 4th and 5th century between Pelagius and Augustine. In the end both were incorrect and unscriptural. Pelagius believed all men were born in the same state as Adam was created. They each sinned and become mortal. Poor man could not even recognize reality, let alone scripture.
Augustine in building his interpretation went to far the other way and said that all men were imputed with the sin of Adam, thus the doctrine of Original Sin. A theory that later entered into dogma of the RC in the 11th century with Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement which included Original Sin. Unfortunately almost all of western theology, definitely every reformer adopted the Satisfaction theory along with Original Sin theory.
It is quite easy to determine the truth when we come to understanding the Incarnation of Christ. If Original Sin was scriptural truth, then Christ was also born a sinner. After all, He took on our human nature and if that nature was imputed sin as Augustine wants, then we have a huge issue.
The RC apparently realized their error. So they began teaching the "Immaculate Conception of Mary." in the 12 century. However, it did not become dogma, a stated doctrine until 1854. It like two errors will make it right.
The scriptural Truth is that man is not born a sinner, he becomes one.
Philosophically the idea of imputing sin is impossible unless somehow one can impute guilt without the sin. Sin is an act of man. It is not a state of being as the word "sinner" implies. Thus we become sinners because we do acts of sin. We easily sin because of our mortal state of being.
Yes, the idea of original sin is man-made.

The IDEA of original sin is not found in the BIble the PROBLEM of Christ being born with original sin is not found in the BIble and no SOLUTION to this problem is not found in the BIble.

If original sin were true, then Christ being born with sin would be a major problem yet the BIble does not even provide a solution to that major problem. Catholics made up the idea of the immaculate conception and others made up the idea that original sin only passes through the father but neither made up "solution" is found in the Bible. Seems strange such a serious problem would exists with Christ being born with sin yet the Bible provides no solution.....but the BIble does not need to provide a solution to an idea or problem that does not even exist. The IDEA is not found in the BIble hence the PROBLEM does not exist hence no need for a SOLUTION for what does not exist.

Augustine may have gotten the idea of original sin from the Gnostics. The Gnostics tho't the flesh was inherently evil therefore they denied Christ was God in the flesh else Christ would have this evil flesh. In 1 or 2 John in dealing with these Gnostics, John never provided a solution as to how Christ could have been born without having the inherent evil flesh. Why? For John did not need to provide a solution to a problem that did not exist. The IDEA, the PROBLEM nor a SOLUTION of what the Gnostics believed are not found in the BIble just as the IDEA the PROBLEM nor the SOLUTION of original sin are not found in the BIble.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), and none of the verses you quote state that man is good, not even from birth, so you deceive.

Yet you post Psalms 51:5 and make David a sinner at conception. Now you quote Psa 58:3 that has one being a sinner from birth. Yet conception and birth are two distinct points separated by about nine months. So which is it? Is one conceived a sinner or born a sinner? If one is conceived a sinner then he cannot be a sinner when born for he already is a sinner. But if one is not a sinner until birth then one cannot be a sinner at conception. This is one of many problems you have in you erroneous, literal interpretation of these passages.


Again, if one takes the BIble definition of sin, Rom 4:15; 1 Jn 3:4; Rom 7:8-9, how the BIble defines sin makes the idea of original sin IMPOSSIBLE. Therefore your interpretation of Psalms MUST be wrong for you try and make one a sinner who has not transgressed and who is not accountable to God's law. For a person to be a sinner there must a law (Rom 4:15) that law must be transgressed (1 Jn 3:4) by a person who is accountable to God's law (Rom 7:8-9). Therefore how the BIble defines sin/sinners makes it impossible for David, or anyone else, be born a sinner. You continue to reject the Bible definition of sin/sinner.
"No one is good except God alone" (Jesus Christ the Lord, Mark 10:18).

In Hebrew, the grammatical inflection of a word can indicate the person (first person "I", "me"; second person "you"; third person "he", "she", "it"), the gender (masculine, feminine, common), and the number (singular, plural); additionally, noun and verb agreement is established grammatically by inflection of the noun and the verb.

In "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalms 51:5), David's grammatical inflection defines David as the iniquitous person. "I was brought forth" comes from a single Hebrew word which is first person/common gender/singular; furthermore, "in iniquity" comes from another single Hebrew word which is common gender/singular. David applied the characteristic of "iniquity" to himself, and the common gender with first person makes this completely clear.
Again, if men are born sinners then this would have Christ being born a sinner also and this would be a major problem. Strange for such a major probelm to exist with Christ being born a sinner yet NO SOLUTION to this problem is even found. That's because the idea of originals sin does not exist, the problem with Christ being born with sin does not exist therefore no solution to a problem is not needed for what does not even exist!!! (See my post #970)
Your writings are contrary to the Word of God as shown in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).
You keep citing the same verses but those verse do not say man is BORN wicked or BORN estranged from God.

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

This verse does NOT say men are BORN out of the way or BORN unprofitable. For men are born without sin, born innocent but upon learning right from wrong they become accountable to God's law and then choose to sin BECOMING a sinner.

Psa 58:3 speaks of those who GO ASTRAY and not 'born astray'. Going astray shows personal culpability in sinning and not how one is unconditionally, passively born having committed NO transgression.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage​


Wayne Jackson


This essay addresses a verse commonly used in support of the false doctrine of original sin.

The doctrine of original sin—the notion that one is born into this world hereditarily totally depraved—is widely believed in the religious world.
For example, the Augsburg Confession of Faith (1530), Lutheranism’s creed, asserted:
[A]ll men, born according to nature, are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without confidence towards God and with concupiscence, and that this original disease or flaw is truly a sin, bringing condemnation and also eternal death to those who are not reborn through baptism and the Holy Spirit (Article II).
This, of course, explains the practice of infant baptism as advocated by numerous sects.
Christian Courier Recommends

Likely, the passage that is commonly appealed to in an attempt to justify the concept of original sin is Psalm 51:5.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Does this verse provide a basis for the doctrine of original sin? Assuredly, it does not. But let us carefully study the matter.

Preliminary Principles​

First of all, it needs to be initially recognized that this passage is Hebrew poetry. And Hebrew poetry abounds with bold and imaginative figures of speech; it is frequently characterized by a freedom which departs from customary forms of expression. It is, therefore, a mistake of great magnitude to extract statements from poetical literature and thus employ them as a foundation for doctrinal schemes.

This is precisely the error of the materialists (Watchtower Witnesses, Armstrongites, etc.) who dip into Old Testament poetical books, like Psalms and Job, for their doctrines of soul-sleeping and the annihilation of the wicked.

Secondly, one of the primary rules of Biblical interpretation suggests: “The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (Dungan n.d., 196).

There are numerous Bible verses, in plain, literal language, that affirm the innocency of infants, and Psalm 51:5 must not be arrayed against these. Consider the following:

(1) Scripture plainly teaches that sin is not inherited. “[T]he son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20); every person is responsible for his own conduct (Romans 14:12).

(2) Human sinfulness commences in that period of one’s life that is characterized as youth (Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 3:25).

(3) A child must reach a certain level of maturity before he is able to choose between evil and good (Isaiah 7:15, 16).

(4) The qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:3; 19:14) and for those already in the church (1 Corinthians 14:20). Surely the Lord was not suggesting that we emulate little, totally corrupt sinners!

(5) The human spirit is not inherited from one’s parents; rather, it is given by God (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Hebrews 12:9). Hence, at birth it must be as pure as the source from whence it comes.

Clearly, babies are not born in sin.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Psalm 51:5 Analyzed​

Having shown what Psalm 51: 5 cannot mean, we now turn to some possible views of the passage that do not violate portions of Scripture found elsewhere.

(1) Since Psalm 51 is one of David’s penitent psalms revealing the anguish resulting from his adulterous conduct with Bathsheba, some have felt that verse five contains words that are figuratively put into the mouth of the child conceived by that illicit union (2 Samuel 11:5), thus acknowledging the sinfulness of that relationship. The sinfulness is therefore attributed to the parent and not the child.

T. W. Brents commented:
Whatever may be the meaning of this passage, it can not be the imputation of sin to the child. ‘In sin did my mother conceive me:’ that is, she acted wickedly when I was conceived. Were the wife to say, ‘In drunkenness my husband beat me,’or the child that ‘in anger my father whipped me,’ surely no one would attribute drunkenness to the wife or anger to the child; neither can they impute the sin of the mother to the child (1957, 133, 134).

(2) Others have suggested that David alludes to an incident in his ancestral lineage, an adulterous affair (Genesis 38), whereby he was considered ceremonially defiled because he was of the tenth generation of that unlawful intercourse (Deuteronomy 23:2). This is probably a rather remote possibility.

(3) Most likely, however, Psalm 51:5 merely refers to the fact that David was born into a sinful environment. We all are conceived in and brought forth into a sinful world. But we do not actually sin until we arrive at a stage of spiritual responsibility.

Perhaps David also, by the use of dramatic language, alludes to the fact that sin had characterized his whole life, relatively speaking.
In a similarly poetic section, for example, Job, in denying that he had neglected his benevolent responsibilities, affirmed that he had cared for the orphan and the widow from his mother’s womb! Surely, no one believes that on day one of Job’s existence that he was out ministering to the needy! In fact, the Hebrew parallelism of this verse (Job 31:18), clearly indicates that the word “womb” is used in the sense of youth.

A Concluding Problem​

Those who employ Psalm 51:5 to buttress the doctrine that sin is inherited from one’s mother are faced with a serious problem. Jesus was both conceived by and brought forth from a human mother (Luke 1:31). If original sin is inherited from one’s mother, Christ had it. If, however, someone should suggest that depravity is received only from the father, Psalm 51:5 cannot be used to prove it, for it mentions only the mother!

The truth of the matter is, the doctrine of original sin is not Biblical. It had its origin in the writings of the so-called “church fathers” in the post-apostolic era. Such men as Tertullian (160-220) and Cyprian (200-258) first formulated the doctrine and it was later popularized by Augustine and John Calvin.

Those who accept the plain testimony of the sacred Scriptures will reject this error.
SOURCES
  • Brents, T. W. 1957. The Gospel Plan of Salvation. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate.
  • Dungan, D. R. n.d. Hermeneutics. Cincinnati, OH: Standard.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Does Psalm 58 Teach “Original Sin”?​


Wayne Jackson

We are quite familiar with Psalm 58. Verses 3-6 read as follows:

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: They are like the deaf adder that stops up her ear, who listens not to the voice of charmers, charming ever so wisely. Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: Break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Jehovah.”

The first thing that the careful Bible student must observe is the fact that this text is a part of that body of Old Testament literature that is highly poetic in nature, and as such, is punctuated with graphic figures of speech.

These four verses contain several vivid figures, e.g., the hyperbole, the simile, and metonymy. Hyperbole is an exaggeration for emphasis’ sake; simile is a comparison between two objects by the use of “like” or “as,” etc., and metonymy involves the substitution of one name for another in order to stress an important truth.

One of the most significant sources of erroneous views about the Bible is the failure to discern the difference between the literal and the figurative expressions of Scripture. And that is precisely the problem in reading this text, and concluding that it provides substance for the doctrine of “original sin” or “hereditary total depravity,” i.e., the notion that infants are born in sin. Our response to this question, therefore, involves an understanding of several important principles of interpretation.

First, the Bible teaches — in unambiguous prose — that moral responsibility for sin comes in the “youth” of one’s life, and not at the point of one’s conception, or birth (see Gen. 8:21; Isa. 7:16, etc.). For a more detailed discussion of this point, we refer the reader to our companion article on Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage. Passages such as Psalm 51:5; 58:3ff, which are highly figurative in composition, must be brought into harmony with the literal language of prose – not the reverse.

Second, when one presses the language of these two Psalms, in order to extract the dogma of “original sin,” he encounters some insuperable difficulties. Consider the following points.

A contradiction​

If the language of Psalm 51:5 and 58:3-6 is to be pressed literally, then one encounters a contradiction between the two texts. Psalm 51:5 would teach that the child is a sinner from the moment of his conception, whereas Psalm 58:3 would suggest that the infant does not “go astray” until he is born — nine months later. Which is it – if the text is strictly literal?

Going astray​

The fact that the sinner is said to “go astray” (Psa. 58:3), rather than being “born astray,” reveals the individual’s personal culpability, rather than Adam’s responsibility (as in the “original sin” theory). Compare Isaiah’s declaration: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way” (Isa. 53:6). No one is considered “sinful” on account of the sins of someone else (Ezek. 18:20).

An impossibility​

A literal interpretation of Psalm 58:3 involves an impossibility. It has the infant “speaking” lies as soon as it is born, which every parent knows is not the reality. It is the case, however, that we often figuratively (using hyperbole) refer to the language that one has spoken most of his life as the tongue of his “birth” (cf. Acts 2:8).

Similarly, the fact that these “estranged” people are said to have “teeth” at the point of birth (v. 6) is further evidence that the sacred writer is not speaking of a literal, newborn child. Can anyone cite a case of where a day-old child has told a lie?

Kill the baby?​

If the text of Psalm 58:3ff is to be pressed literally, these little ones who are “speaking lies” must have their teeth broken (v. 6). And since they are compared to poisonous snakes, the implication is that they should be killed so that their venom will not be deadly to others. Can the reader not see the gross error in pressing this language into a literal mold?

Lions or people?​

If the language of Psalm 58:3-6 is literal, one must conclude that the divine writer was not dealing with human beings at all, but with “lions” — and, in fact, lions that spoke lies (v. 6). What is this: an example of figurative language, or some kind of Walt Disney production?
One of the cardinal rules of Bible interpretation is that one must never force a scriptural statement into a situation wherein an absurdity is affirmed. Such certainly would be the case, however, if the “original sin” interpretation of this passage is maintained.

The meaning of the text, then, is simply this. When the panorama of one’s life is viewed as a whole, relatively early in life each rational person begins to move away from God into a sinful state of spiritual rebellion. He utters things contrary to the will of God – his speech being a commentary on the disposition of his heart (cf. Mk. 7:21). He does not listen and respond to the voice of the Lord. Such conduct, therefore, if pursed continuously, is worthy of punishment.

As one writer observes, these enemies of the Lord “are so evil, it seems as if they had been born to it (cf. Ps. 51:5). This is literally impossible, and those who use this verse to argue for infant depravity surely miss the author’s point” (Ash 1980, 198).

It is not the case that one goes astray and speaks lies from his mother’s womb in a literal sense, any more than it was a reality that Job was caring for orphans and widows from his mother’s womb (Job 31:18). Why is the Psalms passage considered to be literal, while the Job text is acknowledged to be figurative?

It is interesting to observe that Albert Barnes, the renowned Presbyterian commentator who believed in the dogma of “original sin,” conceded that this doctrine could not be sustained from this passage by itself. He said this text spoke of the fact that men “develop a wicked character” fairly “early” in life. He acknowledged that the concept of “original sin” would have to be found elsewhere in Scripture before this context could be said to lend any support to the idea (1980, 138).

Note: Barnes’ view of “original sin” was somewhat confusing. He once wrote: “The notion of imputing sin, is an invention of modern times .... Neither the facts, not any proper inferences from the facts, affirm that I am, in either case, personally responsible for what another man did before I had an existence” (1830, 7; emphasis original).

The reality is — the doctrine of “original sin” is not found in Psalm 58, or elsewhere in the Bible.

SOURCES
  • Ash, Anthony and Clyde Miller. 1980. Psalms. Austin, Texas: Sweet.
  • Barnes, Albert. 1980. Notes on the Psalms. Vol. 2. London, England: Blackie & Son.
  • Barnes, Albert. 1830. Sermon. February 8, 1829. Morris-Town, New Jersey: Jacob Mann.
(my emp)
 
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Rightglory

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""""""Wherefore, as by one man, Adam, sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:."""""

Here is also what you are not understanding, Rightglory.

You get your Adamic nature from a Male., "by one man".
And that is your daddy, as you are his SEED.
You are the SEED of a sinner, fallen, who is of the Adamic nature...same as fallen Adam.
Sin is in your blood and not just in your head and heart.
That is why your body DIES.

Listen ....

Jesus, whom you just insulted, ... He is from the seed of His Father.
His Father is God.

So, think about that, before you again accuse the Holy Lord Jesus The Christ or even suggest that He is a sinner.
Christ did not take on himself a fallen nature. He took upon Him self our human nature. Adam had a human nature that was not fallen. Christ, born of the Virgin had a human nature just like Adam. Or are you saying women don't have a human nature? Christ was not born fallen, or mortal. I'm not the one claiming man is a sinner by nature, those that believe sin is imputed put that on Christ since he was born with a human nature thus imputed sin. All men are born innocent of sin. We do not inherit sin through Adam. I suggest you believe what scripture states rather than imposing a nonscriptural theory of Original Sin
 

Kermos

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The idea that man was or was not born a sinner was challenged in the 4th and 5th century between Pelagius and Augustine. In the end both were incorrect and unscriptural. Pelagius believed all men were born in the same state as Adam was created. They each sinned and become mortal. Poor man could not even recognize reality, let alone scripture.
Augustine in building his interpretation went to far the other way and said that all men were imputed with the sin of Adam, thus the doctrine of Original Sin. A theory that later entered into dogma of the RC in the 11th century with Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement which included Original Sin. Unfortunately almost all of western theology, definitely every reformer adopted the Satisfaction theory along with Original Sin theory.
It is quite easy to determine the truth when we come to understanding the Incarnation of Christ. If Original Sin was scriptural truth, then Christ was also born a sinner. After all, He took on our human nature and if that nature was imputed sin as Augustine wants, then we have a huge issue.
The RC apparently realized their error. So they began teaching the "Immaculate Conception of Mary." in the 12 century. However, it did not become dogma, a stated doctrine until 1854. It like two errors will make it right.
The scriptural Truth is that man is not born a sinner, he becomes one.
Philosophically the idea of imputing sin is impossible unless somehow one can impute guilt without the sin. Sin is an act of man. It is not a state of being as the word "sinner" implies. Thus we become sinners because we do acts of sin. We easily sin because of our mortal state of being.

You wrote "Poor man could not even recognize reality" which describes you.

your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) thoughts are proven deception according to the Word of God in these three installments which explain your deceptions of (1) 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God taught and you ignorantly think you choose to be born, (2) you contradict scripture by thinking God loves everyone thus God fails to save the ones God loves according to your free-willian philosophy, and (3) you express confusion as to why God created man.

you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Your vehement argument against sola scriptura makes you promiscuus scriptura.
 

Rightglory

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You wrote "Poor man could not even recognize reality" which describes you.

your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) thoughts are proven deception according to the Word of God in these three installments which explain your deceptions of (1) 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God taught and you ignorantly think you choose to be born, (2) you contradict scripture by thinking God loves everyone thus God fails to save the ones God loves according to your free-willian philosophy, and (3) you express confusion as to why God created man.

you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Your vehement argument against sola scriptura makes you promiscuus scriptura.
Coming from a man who cannot refute the Truth.
You have built a grand theology of one which has no bearing on scripture in the least.
God have mercy
 

Kermos

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Yet you post Psalms 51:5 and make David a sinner at conception. Now you quote Psa 58:3 that has one being a sinner from birth. Yet conception and birth are two distinct points separated by about nine months. So which is it? Is one conceived a sinner or born a sinner? If one is conceived a sinner then he cannot be a sinner when born for he already is a sinner. But if one is not a sinner until birth then one cannot be a sinner at conception. This is one of many problems you have in you erroneous, literal interpretation of these passages.


Again, if one takes the BIble definition of sin, Rom 4:15; 1 Jn 3:4; Rom 7:8-9, how the BIble defines sin makes the idea of original sin IMPOSSIBLE. Therefore your interpretation of Psalms MUST be wrong for you try and make one a sinner who has not transgressed and who is not accountable to God's law. For a person to be a sinner there must a law (Rom 4:15) that law must be transgressed (1 Jn 3:4) by a person who is accountable to God's law (Rom 7:8-9). Therefore how the BIble defines sin/sinners makes it impossible for David, or anyone else, be born a sinner. You continue to reject the Bible definition of sin/sinner.

Again, if men are born sinners then this would have Christ being born a sinner also and this would be a major problem. Strange for such a major probelm to exist with Christ being born a sinner yet NO SOLUTION to this problem is even found. That's because the idea of originals sin does not exist, the problem with Christ being born with sin does not exist therefore no solution to a problem is not needed for what does not even exist!!! (See my post #970)

You keep citing the same verses but those verse do not say man is BORN wicked or BORN estranged from God.

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

This verse does NOT say men are BORN out of the way or BORN unprofitable. For men are born without sin, born innocent but upon learning right from wrong they become accountable to God's law and then choose to sin BECOMING a sinner.

Psa 58:3 speaks of those who GO ASTRAY and not 'born astray'. Going astray shows personal culpability in sinning and not how one is unconditionally, passively born having committed NO transgression.

I quoted Psalm 58:3 to you repeatedly, but you blindly blew past it, and now you adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) based upon your closing paragraph.

I did not write that David was a sinner at conception, rather I quoted David who about himself wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5), and I specifically addressed this clause in the lexical Hebrew examination, which I supply here again because you seem to have a severe blindness problem based upon you missing Psalm 58:3 over and over. In fact, I indent the paragraphs to make it even more clear for you:

In Hebrew, the grammatical inflection of a word can indicate the person (first person "I", "me"; second person "you"; third person "he", "she", "it"), the gender (masculine, feminine, common), and the number (singular, plural); additionally, noun and verb agreement is established grammatically by inflection of the noun and the verb.

In "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalms 51:5), David's grammatical inflection defines David as the iniquitous person. "I was brought forth" comes from a single Hebrew word which is first person/common gender/singular; furthermore, "in iniquity" comes from another single Hebrew word which is common gender/singular. David applied the characteristic of "iniquity" to himself, and the common gender with first person makes this completely clear.

You wrote "if men are born sinners then this would have Christ being born a sinner also and this would be a major problem" after the quote of "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).

FIRST, YOUR HEART NULLIFIES THESE CHRIST'S WORDS because you repeatedly convey that others besides God are good.

LOOK AT JESUS' WORDS, ERNEST T. BASS, LOOK FOR THE WORD "SINNER", and you'll see that the word "sinner" is absent from Christ's words recorded in Mark 10:18.

ALL PEOPLE ARE EVIL AT BIRTH EXCEPT FOR CHRIST WHO was the only sinless person of His own doings for it is written of the Lord Jesus Christ, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). SEE THAT CHRIST "KNEW NO SIN".

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION IN "NO ONE DOES GOOD, NOT EVEN ONE" (ROMANS 3:12), so you are not good and your adulteration of the Word of God proves that you are not good. NO ONE IS GOOD AT BIRTH BECAUSE PAUL DOES NOT PROVIDE EXCEPTION FOR BIRTH.

You wrote "This verse does NOT say men are BORN out of the way" of Romans 3:12, so your heart adulterates Paul's words into "people are born good, yes everyone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) of which your thoughts are against Christ who says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18) - Christ provided for no exception, not even at birth.

THE FOLLOWING REMAINS AN ACCURATE EXAMINATION AND CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS.

Not one of the verses you cite say man is born a sinner. Jeremiah does state man is deveitful and wicked but he does NOT state HOW man got that way, He dos NOT say man is innately, unconditionally born wicked and sinful. You read your ideas into the verses. No verse states infants are born deceitful and wicked but they can with intellectual maturity of learning bwtween right and wrong BECOME deceitful and wicked.

If one accepts the BIble's teaching on sin then one must reject the heresy of original sin. The Bible teaches if there where no law there would be no transgression (Rom 4:15) and John says sin is transgression of the law. Therefore the only way for one to BECOME a sinner is by CONDITIONALLY transgressing God's law. Original sin falsely tries to make one a sinner who has not transgressed God's law.

3 Jn 1:11; James 4:17; 1 Pet 3:11 man can "do good" but no man can do good in doing absolute, sinless perfection as God Who is perfectly good, Mk 10:18.

Your writings are contrary to the Word of God as shown in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "The heart is NOT deceitful above all things, and NOT desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating, again.

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating the Word of God such that it is no longer the Word of God but the mere word of man.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).

YOUR HEART NULLIFIES THE NEED FOR THE SAVIOR!
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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I quoted Psalm 58:3 to you repeatedly, but you blindly blew past it, and now you adulterate "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) into your unscriptural thoughts of "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) based upon your closing paragraph.

I did not write that David was a sinner at conception, rather I quoted David who about himself wrote "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5), and I specifically addressed this clause in the lexical Hebrew examination, which I supply here again because you seem to have a severe blindness problem based upon you missing Psalm 58:3 over and over. In fact, I indent the paragraphs to make it even more clear for you:
In Hebrew, the grammatical inflection of a word can indicate the person (first person "I", "me"; second person "you"; third person "he", "she", "it"), the gender (masculine, feminine, common), and the number (singular, plural); additionally, noun and verb agreement is established grammatically by inflection of the noun and the verb.​
In "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalms 51:5), David's grammatical inflection defines David as the iniquitous person. "I was brought forth" comes from a single Hebrew word which is first person/common gender/singular; furthermore, "in iniquity" comes from another single Hebrew word which is common gender/singular. David applied the characteristic of "iniquity" to himself, and the common gender with first person makes this completely clear.​

You wrote "if men are born sinners then this would have Christ being born a sinner also and this would be a major problem" after the quote of "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).

FIRST, YOUR HEART NULLIFIES THESE CHRIST'S WORDS because you repeatedly convey that others besides God are good.

LOOK AT JESUS' WORDS, ERNEST T. BASS, LOOK FOR THE WORD "SINNER", and you'll see that the word "sinner" is absent from Christ's words recorded in Mark 10:18.

ALL PEOPLE ARE EVIL AT BIRTH EXCEPT FOR CHRIST WHO was the only sinless person of His own doings for it is written of the Lord Jesus Christ, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). SEE THAT CHRIST "KNEW NO SIN".

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION IN "NO ONE DOES GOOD, NOT EVEN ONE" (ROMANS 3:12), so you are not good and your adulteration of the Word of God proves that you are not good. NO ONE IS GOOD AT BIRTH BECAUSE PAUL DOES NOT PROVIDE EXCEPTION FOR BIRTH.

You wrote "This verse does NOT say men are BORN out of the way" of Romans 3:12, so your heart adulterates Paul's words into "people are born good, yes everyone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) of which your thoughts are against Christ who says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18) - Christ provided for no exception, not even at birth.

THE FOLLOWING REMAINS AN ACCURATE EXAMINATION AND CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS.



Your writings are contrary to the Word of God as shown in the following verses.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "The heart is NOT deceitful above all things, and NOT desperately wicked" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating, again.

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

In a reviling self-willed shout (2 Peter 2:9-10), you say "No one is good except man and God alone" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) thus adulterating the Word of God such that it is no longer the Word of God but the mere word of man.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).

YOUR HEART NULLIFIES THE NEED FOR THE SAVIOR!
Look again!!!!! I did not "blow past" Psalms 58:3 but dealt with it head on, even made a post with a break down of the verse that clearly show the figurative language and the error one gets into by pressing for literal language and showed it does not in anyway teach original sin. You try and force original sin into the text qwhich created contradictions with how the BIble defines sin yet you ;blow past; reconciling those contradictions you continue to create.

You tried to force original sin in Psa 51:5 that speaks about concrption and Psa 58:3 that speaks about birth. If these verses teach original sin then is one a siner at conception or at birth? Two distinct points separated by about 9 months. What this shows is the error some have in placing a literal interpretation upon these figurative passages.

Psa 51:5
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

The Bible says the world is a wicked, sinful place and it has been my understanding of this verse that David was speaking about being born into this wicked environment not that he was born a sinner. The phrase "in iniquity" (Hebrew aon) is also found in Genesis 19:15 that says:
"And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity (aon) of the city." The phrase "in the iniquity" does NOT mean Lot inherited the sin of that wicked city but that he was in a wicked environment and is being told to leave it.

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If original sin were true then for a fact Christ would have been born with if for he was "made like unto his brethren" (Heb 2:17) and "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; And being found in fashion as a man.." (Phil 2:7-8). It total depravity-original sin were true, then Christ would have had it like other men else Christ could not possibly know what it was like to be a man, he could not know what it's like to be tempted as a man having been born without any sin, without an innate nature causing man to sin. Therefore if original sin were true then it creates a major problem with Christ having it yet the BIble does not provide a solution as to how Christ could be made in the likeness of men, be fashioned as a man with original sin yet be a sinless sacrifice for man's sin at the same time. Yet the Bible does not teach the IDEA of original sin, therefore there is no PROBLEM with Christ being born with original sin therefore no SOLUTION is necessary to a problem that is not found in the Bible but original sin is a problem of man's perverse creation.

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Men are born again by choice not something forced upon them by God thereby having God CAUSE men to be born again against their will.
 

Kermos

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Look again!!!!! I did not "blow past" Psalms 58:3 but dealt with it head on, even made a post with a break down of the verse that clearly show the figurative language and the error one gets into by pressing for literal language and showed it does not in anyway teach original sin. You try and force original sin into the text qwhich created contradictions with how the BIble defines sin yet you ;blow past; reconciling those contradictions you continue to create.

You tried to force original sin in Psa 51:5 that speaks about concrption and Psa 58:3 that speaks about birth. If these verses teach original sin then is one a siner at conception or at birth? Two distinct points separated by about 9 months. What this shows is the error some have in placing a literal interpretation upon these figurative passages.

Psa 51:5
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

The Bible says the world is a wicked, sinful place and it has been my understanding of this verse that David was speaking about being born into this wicked environment not that he was born a sinner. The phrase "in iniquity" (Hebrew aon) is also found in Genesis 19:15 that says:
"And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity (aon) of the city." The phrase "in the iniquity" does NOT mean Lot inherited the sin of that wicked city but that he was in a wicked environment and is being told to leave it.

===============


If original sin were true then for a fact Christ would have been born with if for he was "made like unto his brethren" (Heb 2:17) and "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; And being found in fashion as a man.." (Phil 2:7-8). It total depravity-original sin were true, then Christ would have had it like other men else Christ could not possibly know what it was like to be a man, he could not know what it's like to be tempted as a man having been born without any sin, without an innate nature causing man to sin. Therefore if original sin were true then it creates a major problem with Christ having it yet the BIble does not provide a solution as to how Christ could be made in the likeness of men, be fashioned as a man with original sin yet be a sinless sacrifice for man's sin at the same time. Yet the Bible does not teach the IDEA of original sin, therefore there is no PROBLEM with Christ being born with original sin therefore no SOLUTION is necessary to a problem that is not found in the Bible but original sin is a problem of man's perverse creation.

=====================

Men are born again by choice not something forced upon them by God thereby having God CAUSE men to be born again against their will.

So, in your self-assigned self-willed status (2 Peter 2:9-10), your heart subtracts the scripturally declared meaning of "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3) with your unscriptural thoughts of "break down of the verse that clearly show the figurative language and the error one gets into by pressing for literal language" resulting in "The wicked are NOT estranged from the womb; these who speak lies DO NOT go astray from birth" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

And you insult David respecting Psalm 58:3 in order for you to be able to say:

Not one of the verses you cite say man is born a sinner.

The verse declares spiritual truth "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), so you deceive by conveying that people are good from the womb even from birth.