Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

[BreadOfLife]

The way you interpret the symbols of bread and wine must be consistent with how you interpret other things Christ is said to be

RE-READ post #268 where I explained in great detail that Jesus was NOT speaking metaphorically – and even used hyperbole to drive His point across.

Compare that with the verses YOU posted like John 10:7, John 15:1, etc., where He says it once and doesn’t belabor the point, as He does in John 6.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, everything about salvation depends on the truth of what we believe....or have been led to believe.
Just because we have been led to believe something, doesn’t make it true.

And you still haven’t answered the question . . .

That is just the beauty of it.....none of us will know until the end, when the hammer falls and judgment has been made on the basis of what we have chosen as our truth, and how we have applied Jesus’ teachings in our lives. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves...the one God sees...not necessarily the person we believe ourselves to be.

And if Jesus is correct, (and we know he cannot be wrong) it is God himself who draws some people to the truth (John 6:44, 65) and leaves others to be ‘deluded’ by the devil in his false religious systems. It is a chosen delusion, so God knows the condition of their hearts, and allows them to keep it. He gives us the identifying characteristics of Christ’s true disciples in a world ruled by the devil, and these will stand out as those who meet the standard.....they will be united in their beliefs. (1Cor 1:10) With love amongst themselves. (John 13:34-35) And be “No part of the world” in its moral standards or conduct. (John 18:36) They will know “the only true God, and the one he sent”. (John 17:3)

What a frightening prospect – and a dangerous way to live.

That’s NOT security – it’s a crapshoot. It’s just throwing caution to the wins. Instead of everybody doing things their OWN way and flying by the seat of their pants – why not just do things HIS way and follow the Authority of His Church (M1tt. 16:18-19, M1tt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 12512-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess. 2:15).

It’s a classis example of spiritual PRIDE . . .

The Holy Spirit does not speak with a forked tongue.....it’s the other fellow who does that.
Disunity among professed Christians is a red flag, especially divisions within one denomination and in Christendom as a whole. Jesus said there would be “wheat” and “weeds” growing in the same “field”, that he said was “the world”. At the time of “the harvest”, there would be no similarity between them.....They will not resemble each other at all since the features that identify the “wheat” are not found in the “weeds”.

“Denominations” and “non-denominational” sects are precisely what disunity is.
It is a direct violation of the fervent prayer for unity of Jesus in John 17.

If you recall, the Revelation, which is the only Book that mentions a “greater Babylon”, was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and was about a future time....”the Lord’s day”....the features of which Jesus spoke about prior to the desolating of Jerusalem. It is a dual prophesy, with its first fulfilment on apostate Jerusalem, almost 40 years after Christ’s death, and a second fulfilment in the future when he was to return.

First of all, Vatican City is built on ONE hill – not 7.
Pagan Rome was built on 7 jills – as is apostate Jerusalem.

The Whore is called, "The Great City" (Rev. 17:18)
Jerusalem is called the "Great City" - “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).
WHERE was Jesus crucified??

Finally - Apostate Jerusalem has the blood of God’s holy people on her hands - prophets and martyrs (Rev 17:6, Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34, Gal. 4:9, 2 Cor 11:23-26).

And to say that ONLY the Catholic Church killed Christians is false because many Catholics were butchered by Protestants as well.

Do Catholic people accept that Christ has to return as he promised? And if so, how was he to do that?
I have hardly heard any Catholic person mention it.

We absolutely believe that He will return – the SAME way He departed from this world – in the clouds (Acts 1:11, Rev. 1:7). It was the Catholic Church who revealed this truth to the world.

It’s this kind of ignorant anti-Catholic arrogance that cracks me up every time . . .

The first two is “never”....and the last one is a no brainer. “All Scripture is inspired of God” which is a statement that no Christian can argue with....but it’s what Scripture was given for that tells the importance of it....“All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in uprightness, so that the man of God may be proficient and equipped for good work of every kind.” (2 Tim 3:16-17 NCB)
That is the purpose of Scripture. What more could we need?

What else do we need?
According to Jesus - we need His CHURCH (M1tt. 16:18-19, M1tt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 12512-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess. 2:15).

John 14:18
“I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you.”
Just as everything else Jesus said – this has a deeper meaning than just the Holy Spirit.

- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) because Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).

Either you’re following HIS plan – or you’re following your OWN path . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus tells us that the majority of those who claim him as their “Lord” will be rejected as those he “never knew”...these are the “weeds” or “goats”.
Only “few” will be found on the road to life. If you are part of a majority, then you are on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

He’s NOT talking about denominations or groups here. The warning is to INCIVIDUALS who are not prepared. Those individuals can be within His true Church and NOT just those outside of it. They can be YOUR friend and family members – or mine.

Jesus was the sole authority as the one sent by his Father, and he bestowed no authority on anyone else to teach anything different. The apostles taught what Christ taught them....and the Bible writers, being inspired to write as God’s spirit directed them, included all we need to know in order to gain salvation. This amazing book, available to all in this time of the end, takes us a thousands years into the future.....what need was there to add anything?

And this “amazing Book” was NOT available to Christians for the first 300 years of the Church‘s existence. HOW did they know Christ without the complete Bible?

Revelation was the last book of the Bible, and the warning was given not to add or to subtract anything from what was written. (Rev 22:18-19);

This warning is for the Book of Revelation only.

It says NOTHING about the importance Oral Tradition like 1 Cor. 11:2, Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess, 3:6, 2 Thess. 3:6 and others that place Tradition ON PAR with Scripture.

I guess that begs the question....who or what is “the church”?

Can I ask you who Jesus was addressing in Matt 18:18? Read verse 1, then 18, then 21...
It appears that Jesus’ instruction was also given to all the disciples....not just Peter.

Jesus gave Peter “the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens.”, which means that Peter received the assignment to unlock information about how faithful people, by receiving God’s holy spirit, could enjoy the privilege of entering the Kingdom in heaven. The keys unlocked a figurative door allowing others to gain entry into God’s kingdom.
First to Jews and Jewish converts, then to the Samaritans, and finally, to gentiles.

Jesus was addressing the LEADERS of His Church.

In the Gospels, Jesus instructed His inner circle differently than He instructed the crowds.
Whenever He gave full earthly Authority – it was to His inner circle – the leaders (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

When He gave general instruction and taught in Parables (Matt. 13:31-32, Mark 4:1-9, Luke 15:11-32) – it was to the crowds.

As to the Keys of the Kingdom mentioned I Matt. 16:18 – this is a fulfillment of Isaiah 22.

We can see this from the references to Isaiah 22:20-22 when Jesus appointed Peter as the bearer of the “keys to the kingdom” (Matt. 16:18-19).

Isaiah 22:20–22 - In that day I will call my servant ELIAKIM the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt. 16:18-19 - And so I say to you, you are PETER, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

This is a proclamation of AUTHORITY.

 

[Toro55]

There is hope for some at the White Thrown Judgment were people will be judged by their deeds not faith.

The White Throne Judgment, as described in Revelation some may be saved . This judgment is distinct from the Seat of Christ , which is for believers. At the White Throne Judgment, the dead will be resurrected and judged based on their deeds as recorded in the books, with those not found in the Book of life being cast into the Lake of Fire


Also in Revelations 22 Jesus says through the Angel .
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And you still haven’t answered the question . . .

I did answer your question....

“That is just the beauty of it.....none of us will know until the end, when the hammer falls and judgment has been made on the basis of what we have chosen as our truth, and how we have applied Jesus’ teachings in our lives. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves...the one God sees...not necessarily the person we believe ourselves to be.”

To which you replied.....

What a frightening prospect – and a dangerous way to live.

That’s NOT security – it’s a crapshoot. It’s just throwing caution to the wins. Instead of everybody doing things their OWN way and flying by the seat of their pants

It’s nothing like that.....it is a situation where everyone of us has the option of using our free will to choose one of only two roads....one leads to life, and the other to death. (Matt 7:13-14) Making the wrong decision leads to a stinging rejection by Jesus at the judgment. (Matt 7:21-23) When he says “I never knew you”....”NEVER” means “not ever”. Christ has never set foot in false religious institutions.

There are only two categories of people whom God sees....not denominations, but “sheep or goats”....”wheat or weeds”. There are no fences to sit on in order to jump one way or the other at the last moment. Our decisions have to be made before the judgment....like the people of Noah’s day, they will have no excuse to have ignored the messengers. (Matt 24:37-39)

It’s a classis example of spiritual PRIDE

Which of course the RCC has none.....following a man, a sinner whom they think is infallible.....no such person descended from Adam, exists.

“Denominations” and “non-denominational” sects are precisely what disunity is.
It is a direct violation of the fervent prayer for unity of Jesus in John 17.

You are correct...but it’s where those denominations got their beliefs and practices, that also merits investigation. If they are perpetuating false religious ideas that were adopted centuries before by an apostate church, then the daughters are just as guilty as their mother for promoting false religion.

The Whore is called, "The Great City" (Rev. 17:18)

Yes, one that ”has a kingdom over the kings of the earth”....the religious leaders of many religions in the world dictate to their political leaders. Nowhere was this more evident than in the Catholic Church in its influence on the political decisions of their day.....it’s nothing new....Muslim nations too are infuenced by their religious leaders.....ancient Babylon was influenced by its religious leaders.

Jerusalem is called the "Great City" - “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

Another Scripture taken out of context....the symbolic language used here does not allow for the interpretation you have put on these verses.

Finally - Apostate Jerusalem has the blood of God’s holy people on her hands - prophets and martyrs

And the Catholic Church by its execution of so-called heretics, had no sanction from God to execute anyone.
Excommunication was the most a promoter of false doctrine could expect....not the torture and forced confessions extracted by an apostate church, drunk with its own power. You cannot deny history.

We absolutely believe that He will return – the SAME way He departed from this world – in the clouds (Acts 1:11, Rev. 1:7). It was the Catholic Church who revealed this truth to the world.

How did Jesus depart? The world at large was not aware of it...only his closest associates witnessed it.
The angels told the apostles that Jesus would return in “the same manner”....the clouds obscured him from their view.....the Catholic Church revealed nothing about that.

What else do we need?
According to Jesus - we need His CHURCH

But first we have to identify his “church” which he said would be infiltrated by “weeds”...promoters of false religious ideas that Paul indicated were “already at work” in his day. The weeds did what weeds always do...they almost choked the wheat out of existence because anyone who opposed the authority of “the church”, paid dearly for their bravery.....those who spoke out were silenced.....so silence meant staying alive.

The wheat never went away but flourished in spite of the danger that “the church” itself posed to them.

- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) because Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).

Yes “his church”...which is not the one you hold membership in. It does not operate on “the fullness of the Christ” but by the authority of an elected Pope. Who elects him? Men do...and he is a man who must conform to the will of the church.

Either you’re following HIS plan – or you’re following your OWN path . . .

No!....we are either following the truth, or a bunch of lies masquerading as the truth. We are either among the wheat...or we are stuck in the weeds.....only careful Bible study will reveal where we are...and the validity of what we believe.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did answer your question....

It’s nothing like that.....it is a situation where everyone of us has the option of using our free will to choose one of only two roads....one leads to life, and the other to death. (Matt 7:13-14) Making the wrong decision leads to a stinging rejection by Jesus at the judgment. (Matt 7:21-23) When he says “I never knew you”....”NEVER” means “not ever”. Christ has never set foot in false religious institutions.

There are only two categories of people whom God sees....not denominations, but “sheep or goats”....”wheat or weeds”. There are no fences to sit on in order to jump one way or the other at the last moment. Our decisions have to be made before the judgment....like the people of Noah’s day, they will have no excuse to have ignored the messengers. (Matt 24:37-39)

Unnmm, YOU said:
“That is just the beauty of it.....none of us will know until the end, when the hammer falls and judgment has been made”

I said that this is NOT security. Security is having some assurance of salvation
YOUR vision is that our eternity is just a crapshoot – a “we’ll see” situation.

Which of course the RCC has none.....following a man, a sinner whom they think is infallible.....no such person descended from Adam, exists.

That’s because you don’t understand the concept of Papal infallibility.
It has nothing to do with the idea that he can’t make mistakes.

You are correct...but it’s where those denominations got their beliefs and practices, that also merits investigation. If they are perpetuating false religious ideas that were adopted centuries before by an apostate church, then the daughters are just as guilty as their mother for promoting false religion.

They are based on the personal interpretations of MANY individuals. Thousands of different interpretations led to thousands of splintering sects who ALL teach different doctrines – and ALL claiming to have been “led” by the Holy Spirit to this confusion.

Do you honestly believe this is what Jesus preyed for in John 17 when He prayed for the UNITY of His Church??

Yes, one that ”has a kingdom over the kings of the earth”....the religious leaders of many religions in the world dictate to their political leaders. Nowhere was this more evident than in the Catholic Church in its influence on the political decisions of their day.....it’s nothing new....Muslim nations too are infuenced by their religious leaders.....ancient Babylon was influenced by its religious leaders.

Another Scripture taken out of context....the symbolic language used here does not allow for the interpretation you have put on these verses.

Once again – you have completely IGNORED the Scriptural reference to the “Great City” (Jerusalem).

Rev. 11:8 is crystal-clear that the “Great City” is the place “where also their Lord was crucified”.

Epic FAIL on your part . . .

And the Catholic Church by its execution of so-called heretics, had no sanction from God to execute anyone.
Excommunication was the most a promoter of false doctrine could expect....not the torture and forced confessions extracted by an apostate church, drunk with its own power. You cannot deny history.

NO - you CAN'T destroy history . . .

Protestants/Non-Catholics have MUCH blood on their hands as well. The massacres of Catholics in England, Northern Ireland, Prussia, Germany, Scotland and elsewhere are matters of historic FACT.

Don’t even get me started with the English Reformation , where tens of thousands of Catholics were slaughtered o and starved to death.

This is a perfect example of the sin nature that we ALL live in – yet many deny.
As long as human beings are part of the Church – there will be errors in behavior . . .

How did Jesus depart? The world at large was not aware of it...only his closest associates witnessed it.
The angels told the apostles that Jesus would return in “the same manner”....the clouds obscured him from their view.....the Catholic Church revealed nothing about that.

READ your Bible . . .
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

He ascended into the heavens.

When He returns – He will descend from Heaven:
1 Thess. 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

But first we have to identify his “church” which he said would be infiltrated by “weeds”...promoters of false religious ideas that Paul indicated were “already at work” in his day. The weeds did what weeds always do...they almost choked the wheat out of existence because anyone who opposed the authority of “the church”, paid dearly for their bravery.....those who spoke out were silenced.....so silence meant staying alive.

The wheat never went away but flourished in spite of the danger that “the church” itself posed to them.

And the way to identify that Church is to find out if it can be documented back to the Apostles. The Catholic Church CAN.

YOUR sect can’t go back any further than the 16th century . . .

Yes “his church”...which is not the one you hold membership in. It does not operate on “the fullness of the Christ” but by the authority of an elected Pope. Who elects him? Men do...and he is a man who must conform to the will of the church.

The Church is CHRIST (Acts 9:4-5).
He conforms to the will of Christ . . .

No!....we are either following the truth, or a bunch of lies masquerading as the truth. We are either among the wheat...or we are stuck in the weeds.....only careful Bible study will reveal where we are...and the validity of what we believe.

NO??

You either follow HIS plan or your OWN plan.
By adhering to your perverted doctrines - YOU have chosen the latter . . .

 

[Aunty Jane]

YOU said:
“That is just the beauty of it.....none of us will know until the end, when the hammer falls and judgment has been made”

I said that this is NOT security. Security is having some assurance of salvation
YOUR vision is that our eternity is just a crapshoot – a “we’ll see” situation.

There is an assurance of salvation for those to whom God reveals his truth. No one comes to the son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) No invitation means no admittance.

That’s because you don’t understand the concept of Papal infallibility.
It has nothing to do with the idea that he can’t make mistakes.

LOL...are you hearing yourself? Show us please “papal infallibility” in the Scriptures....or better still, show a pope who carries the pagan Roman title of “the Pontiff”.....a mere man who presents himself and is adored by Catholics the world over as if he was Christ himself.

They are based on the personal interpretations of MANY individuals. Thousands of different interpretations led to thousands of splintering sects who ALL teach different doctrines – and ALL claiming to have been “led” by the Holy Spirit to this confusion.

Do you honestly believe this is what Jesus preyed for in John 17 when He prayed for the UNITY of His Church??

Exactly why my brotherhood are no part of Christendom. We have studied the Bible very carefully and weeded out all doctrines that originated in ancient Babylon. The “greater Babylon” teaches all manner of false doctrines adopted like lost puppies, and over the centuries have grown and reproduced according to their “kind”. Not a single doctrine or practice that is accepted by Christendom, as it separated from the ‘mother church’, has its roots in Scripture, either.

Once again – you have completely IGNORED the Scriptural reference to the “Great City” (Jerusalem).

Rev. 11:8 is crystal-clear that the “Great City” is the place “where also their Lord was crucified”.

Epic FAIL on your part . . .

The “epic fail” is in taking Scripture out of context and passing it off as proof of ’scriptural’ doctrine, when you claim that no real aherance to Scripture is necessary, because the church can add to or subtract from what the Bible teaches, and for some reason, you all accept it without question.

How else could Jesus end up being what your church turned him into? He was a Jewish monotheist.
How else could his mother have obtained the status she has in the Catholic faith, when she is really not mentioned much at all in the Bible?
How else could idolatry have become so acceptable to the Catholic church when it is forbidden to “make an image of anything” to be used in worship? (Ex 20:4)

How else could the church have departed from original Christianity so completely and turned itself into a replica of old apostate Judaism?....complete with ornate temples and priestly vestments, alters, rituals and incense and holy water, which did not exist in the church that Jesus started...nor was any of that taught by the apostles.

NO - you CAN'T destroy history . . .

Protestants/Non-Catholics have MUCH blood on their hands as well. The massacres of Catholics in England, Northern Ireland, Prussia, Germany, Scotland and elsewhere are matters of historic FACT.....
Don’t even get me started with the English Reformation , where tens of thousands of Catholics were slaughtered o and starved to death.

And all of Christendom stands convicted by your words. Just because they did what your church did doesn’t make them right in God’s eyes, but equally as guilty of unsanctioned bloodshed. (Isa 1:15)

This is a perfect example of the sin nature that we ALL live in – yet many deny.
As long as human beings are part of the Church – there will be errors in behavior . . .

Yes, but a sin nature does not excuse sin.....it only explains it. God teaches us how to get a grip and fight those inclinations in us. We cannot break God’s Laws and ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ because our church tells us it’s OK to do that. We are commanded to “love our enemies and to pray for them” (Matt 5:43-45) Can you love your enemies with weapons, and pray for them before you kill them?

 

[Aunty Jane]

READ your Bible . . .
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

He ascended into the heavens.

When He returns – He will descend from Heaven:
1 Thess. 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

I do read the Bible...everyday. I study it carefully.
It’s amazing that you can bolden and highlight the first part of that scripture whilst ignoring the rest of it.

Context is important....what does the rest of that passage say?
1 Thess 4:13-17....NCB...
“The Dead and the Living at the Lord’s Coming. We do not wish you to be uncertain, brethren, about those who have fallen asleep. You should not grieve as do those who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so too do we believe that God will bring forth with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. Indeed, we can assure you, on the word of the Lord himself, that we who are still alive at the coming of the Lord will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep. When the command is given, at the sound of the archangel’s voice and the call of God’s trumpet, the Lord himself will descend from heaven, and those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise. Then those of us who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them on clouds in the air to meet the Lord. And so, we will be with the Lord forever.“

What is the timeline here? This is speaking about the Lord’s return....only then will the dead in Christ be raised. Those ”sleeping” in death, who have died faithful will rise “first”. (Rev 20:6) Which means that no one could go to heaven before this event....so, there were to be no “saints” in heaven until ‘the coming of the Lord’. Then it states that those who are still alive on earth when he arrives, will be instantly transformed to join Christ’s elect or saints. They will have no advantage over the saints who have died before them. All are raised in this same period of time. How do you explain this away?

I do not dispute that Christ “descends from heaven....he ascended to heaven to “prepare a place” for those of his chosen ones to follow him into heaven......but this was not to take place until he came back for them.

What does this reveal about the expectation of his “coming”? What is Christendom expecting that they have missed because of believing in immortality of the soul? The Bible does not teach that souls are immortal, (Ezekiel 18:4) but that at death, all descend into the same place....Sheol/hades....the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10) Death is not a continuation of life....but the cessation of it. The dead “sleep” until Christ awakes them. (John 5:28-29) There is no such place as”hell”. There are no souls alive to torture.

And the way to identify that Church is to find out if it can be documented back to the Apostles. The Catholic Church CAN.

YOUR sect can’t go back any further than the 16th century . . .

What can your church “document”....a succession of apostates.....not apostles....it was a gradual adding and subtracting of many things in the early church that led to the formation of Roman Catholicism and it’s mandated conversion as the religion of the empire....and by a pagan Roman emperor at that. Where does the pope’s title “Pontiff” come from? It’s not Christian.

Christianity does not have a nationality. Rome was a pagan state and remained such even when it rebranded its paganism to appease the Roman people who were introduced to a butchered version of Christianity that Jesus was never a part of.

The Church is CHRIST (Acts 9:4-5).
He conforms to the will of Christ . . .

He never has, and he never did. The churches are up to their necks in political squabbles because the church has never obeyed Christ (John 18:36).....they only obeyed the man who claimed to represent him.

NO??

You either follow HIS plan or your OWN plan.
By adhering to your perverted doctrines - YOU have chosen the latter . . .

Perhaps you should do some study of the Scriptures, instead of church theology, which were given to us for a reason.
If “all Scripture is inspired of God” as it says in 2 Tim 3:16-17, then as it goes on to say, these are “useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in uprightness, so that the man of God may be proficient and equipped for good work of every kind.”

These are the only provisions we need....to become acceptable worshippers of “the only true God” and disciples of “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3)

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is an assurance of salvation for those to whom God reveals his truth. No one comes to the son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) No invitation means no admittance.

And a “no-show” means the invited guest changed his mind . . .

LOL...are you hearing yourself? Show us please “papal infallibility” in the Scriptures....

At the Last Supper, Jesus told the Apostles – the first Bishops of the Church - that the Holy Spirit would “guide you into ALL TRURH” (John 16:13).
This is how a group og Biships and a Pope were ab;le to declare the Canon of Scripture some 3 centuries later . . .

Their offices were successive (Acts 1:20) and Peter was the Leader (Matt. 16:18-19, Mark 16:7, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19, Acts 2:14-36, Acts 5:2-11).

or better still, show a pope who carries the pagan Roman title of “the Pontiff”.....a mere man who presents himself and is adored by Catholics the world over as if he was Christ himself.

As I educated you earlier – Pontiff simply means “Bridge-Builder”.
There nothing “sinister” or “pagan” about it . . .

Exactly why my brotherhood are no part of Christendom. We have studied the Bible very carefully and weeded out all doctrines that originated in ancient Babylon. The “greater Babylon” teaches all manner of false doctrines adopted like lost puppies, and over the centuries have grown and reproduced according to their “kind”. Not a single doctrine or practice that is accepted by Christendom, as it separated from the ‘mother church’, has its roots in Scripture, either.

So, you’re not a Christian?
Gee – what a surprise . . .

How else could Jesus end up being what your church turned him into? He was a Jewish monotheist.
How else could his mother have obtained the status she has in the Catholic faith, when she is really not mentioned much at all in the Bible?
How else could idolatry have become so acceptable to the Catholic church when it is forbidden to “make an image of anything” to be used in worship? (Ex 20:4)

That’s NOT what Exod. 20:4 says. READ your Bible . . .

Exod. 20:4-6
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or WORSHIP them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

The Commandment in NOT against making images because we see God ordering the Hebrews to make 2 Golden Cherubim for the Ark (Exod. 25:18-22). The people bowed and fell prostrate before the Ark.

We also see God commanding them to make a Bronze Serpent and place it on a pole so that the people who gazed upon it would be healed (Num. 21:8-9).

These verses are clearly talking about not making gods out of images and not bowing TO them and serving them. The Church has always condemned this practice.

How else could the church have departed from original Christianity so completely and turned itself into a replica of old apostate Judaism?....complete with ornate temples and priestly vestments, alters, rituals and incense and holy water, which did not exist in the church that Jesus started...nor was any of that taught by the apostles.

These fallacies are based in your incredible ignorance of Scripture and the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Book of Revelation is filled with similarities between Mass on earth and that of the Heavenly liturgy. Here is a list of some of them:
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 tells us about priests wearing special vestments in the Heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.

Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 speaks of an altar being present in heaven – which illustrates that an Eternal Sacrifice is being offered. That sacrifice is the very same one being offered on the altar during the Mass.

Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 speaks of incense being used in Heaven which has been part of the celebration of the Mass from the beginning.

As for your disdain of “Rituals” - baptisms, weddings, funerals, worship services, prayer meetings, etc., are ALL rituals.

And all of Christendom stands convicted by your words. Just because they did what your church did doesn’t make them right in God’s eyes, but equally as guilty of unsanctioned bloodshed. (Isa 1:15)

The errors they committed are NO worse than the spiritual abominations of Fathers of YOUR cult.

In fact, theirs have been repented of – whereas, YOURs havn’t . . .

Yes, but a sin nature does not excuse sin.....it only explains it. God teaches us how to get a grip and fight those inclinations in us. We cannot break God’s Laws and ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ because our church tells us it’s OK to do that. We are commanded to “love our enemies and to pray for them” (Matt 5:43-45) Can you love your enemies with weapons, and pray for them before you kill them?

The Bible tells us that as followers of Christ, we still live in sinful flesh and will struggle with sin (Rom. 7).
The difference between a Chistian and a person who rejects Christ and His Church is that WE have recourse in Christ. We find forgiveness in repentance.

Those eho reject Christ and His Church have NO forgiveness . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do read the Bible...everyday. I study it carefully.
It’s amazing that you can bolden and highlight the first part of that scripture whilst ignoring the rest of it.

What is the timeline here? This is speaking about the Lord’s return....only then will the dead in Christ be raised. Those ”sleeping” in death, who have died faithful will rise “first”. (Rev 20:6) Which means that no one could go to heaven before this event....so, there were to be no “saints” in heaven until ‘the coming of the Lord’. Then it states that those who are still alive on earth when he arrives, will be instantly transformed to join Christ’s elect or saints. They will have no advantage over the saints who have died before them. All are raised in this same period of time. How do you explain this away?

I do not dispute that Christ “descends from heaven....he ascended to heaven to “prepare a place” for those of his chosen ones to follow him into heaven......but this was not to take place until he came back for them.

The disembodied SOUS of the saints are already in Heaven (Rev. 6:9). At Christ’s Return, they will be reunited sith their bodies, now glorified (1 Thess 4:13-17).

What does this reveal about the expectation of his “coming”? What is Christendom expecting that they have missed because of believing in immortality of the soul? The Bible does not teach that souls are immortal, (Ezekiel 18:4) but that at death, all descend into the same place....Sheol/hades....the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10) Death is not a continuation of life....but the cessation of it. The dead “sleep” until Christ awakes them. (John 5:28-29)

WRONG.

As I already educated you, Rev. 6 shows the disembodied souls of the martyrs in Heaven awaiting fellow martyrs.

Rev. 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOUS of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

There is no such place as”hell”. There are no souls alive to torture.

Hell is a REAL place - and it is for eternoity (Isa. 33:11, 14, Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46, Mark 9:47–48, Luke 3:16-17, 2 Thess. 1:6-9).

You're in for a very RUDE awakening . . .

What can your church “document”....a succession of apostates.....not apostles....it was a gradual adding and subtracting of many things in the early church that led to the formation of Roman Catholicism and it’s mandated conversion as the religion of the empire....and by a pagan Roman emperor at that. Where does the pope’s title “Pontiff” come from? It’s not Christian.

It’s a term that simply means “Bridge-Builder”.

Why do I have to keep educating you on this point??

Christianity does not have a nationality. Rome was a pagan state and remained such even when it rebranded its paganism to appease the Roman people who were introduced to a butchered version of Christianity that Jesus was never a part of.

The Church IN Rome was not part OF Rome. Peter and Paul established the Church there and it became the hub of Christianity.

And ALL of the martyrs of the pagan Roman Persecutions were CATHOLICS.
MOST of them were CLERGY – Priests, Bishops and Popes . . .

He never has, and he never did. The churches are up to their necks in political squabbles because the church has never obeyed Christ (John 18:36).....they only obeyed the man who claimed to represent him.

THIS coming from an adherent of unbiblical heresies like “Soul Sleep” and the fairy tale that there is no Hell . .

Perhaps you should do some study of the Scriptures, instead of church theology, which were given to us for a reason.
If “all Scripture is inspired of God” as it says in 2 Tim 3:16-17, then as it goes on to say, these are “useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in uprightness, so that the man of God may be proficient and equipped for good work of every kind.”

These are the only provisions we need....to become acceptable worshippers of “the only true God” and disciples of “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3)

Yes - Scripture IS useful for all of those thngs.

NOWHERE does it say it is sufficient - or ALL we need. On the contrary, the Bible itself - not having come into existence until the Fourth Century - tells us that the CHURH is our final earthly Authority. Disobedience and rejection of Christ's Church is disobedience and rejection of HIM:

Matt 16:19; 18:18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide YOU to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind, what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish? Three views of the final judgment: - Damnationism (eternal punishment) - Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked) - Universalism...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient​

This was the "Why only us?" question I had to grapple with as a young adult.

Is it true? Heaven is only for Christians? What does that even mean?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient​

This was the "Why only us?" question I had to grapple with as a young adult.

Is it true? Heaven is only for Christians? What does that even mean?

Where is Heaven promised as the reward of the saints? The Scriptures say, ‘The meek shall inherit the earth!’ Why is it that in many instances your posts begin with a negative or false premise?

 

[quietthinker]

Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient​

ahhhhhh, convenience! 7/11 got onto that.....albeit, there'll be a rebranding, 24/7.....but I guess Christians might settle for 24/6 considering their day of rest.

 

[St. SteVen]

.....but I guess Christians might settle for 24/6 considering their day of rest.

I have observed that Christians want the hell-bound pagans to serve them 24/7.

On the other hand, I was surprised to hear my agnostic friend defending Chic-Fil-A.

 

[Jack]

I have observed that Christians want the hell-bound pagans to serve them 24/7.

Where did you observe that? In your dreams?

On the other hand, I was surprised to hear my agnostic friend defending Chic-Fil-A.

 

[Behold]

Is it true? Heaven is only for Christians? What does that even mean?

The answer to your question is very simple to understand, if you are a Christian.

So.........Heaven is obviously not "'only" for Christians.
This is why you find the Host of Heaven there... (Angelic beings). (others).

And regarding SINNERS.......... Heaven is offered to every Sinner, by/through being reconciled to God, through The Cross of Christ..= while you are still breathing.
If you die never being forgiven, never born again, then you go to HELL, and there is no 2nd chance in Hell.
All your 2nd Chances were used up as every day you were alive on earth, when you could have become a born again Christian, through Faith in Christ.

 

[Jack]

The answer to your question is very simple to understand, if you are a Christian.

So.........Heaven is obviously not "'only" for Christians.
This is why you find the Host of Heaven there... (Angelic beings). (others).

And regarding SINNERS.......... Heaven is offered to every Sinner, by/through being reconciled to God, through The Cross of Christ..= while you are still breathing.
If you die never being forgiven, never born again, then you go to HELL, and there is no 2nd chance in Hell.
All your 2nd Chances were used up as every day you were alive on earth, when you could have become a born again Christian, through Faith in Christ.

Excellent!

 

[St. SteVen]

Heaven is offered to every Sinner

Not in this lifetime.
Countless billions have never heard.
There are still unreached people groups.

 

[Jack]

Not in this lifetime.
Countless billions have never heard.
There are still unreached people groups.

Have you ever read a Bible STV? Oh that's right, you said you don't trust the Bible.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: