Is Hell Eternal?

[This Vale Of Tears]

Originally posted by me: http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/3168-Is-Hell-Eternal?s=c1bae3dbc9269787318ea3353a2690e3 I am saintmichaeldefendthem.

No I haven't become a Universal Salvationist.

And yes I know the teaching of my church and that of most mainline Protestant denominations.

My question doesn't dismiss the well entrenched doctrines and supporting scriptures that characterize hell as eternal in nature. Every bit of that can be true, but it can also not be the final word on the subject. I certainly don't question the justice by which God can hold true to his promise and carry out his just sentence upon the unregenerate in every detail. God is holy and there is no unrighteousness in him.

My question pertains specifically to people who, by all accounts, were deceived, not the fallen angels who deceived them in full lucidity of the consequences of their actions. My question pertains just to people, created Imago Dei and just a little lower than the angels, whom God so loved that he came in the form of us, dwelt amongst us, and died for our sins in hopes that all men would be saved.

I would state emphatically that God has every right to carry out his sentence, but I also note the many times where he hasn't. He decreed 490 years of captivity upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians, yet brings them out of exile 7 years early. He scattered the Jews among the many nations, and yet makes way for them to eventually become a nation again and showers his favor upon them during the intervening centuries. So my question is, is there room for parole in God's system of final judgment?

Time and time again, I see God's justice wrought upon those who practice unrighteousness, but time and time again, I also see that Mercy has the final word. As you can quickly gather and as I said from the start, the teachings of the Catholic Church and the beliefs of most Protestants aren't undone by this question. To teach the eternity of reprobation is to teach the truth right from holy Scripture but I think it cannot eliminate the possibility that God will go back on his word and eventually spare those suffering the torments of hell and offer them another chance to receive his love. It certainly is within his proven character to do so.

Please don't jump all over me, you Bible thumping fundamentalists! I'm just asking a question.

 

[Madad21]

Vale have you become a Universal Salvationist !!
Dont you know the teachings of your church and that of most mainline Protestant denominations ?

Where you been hiding?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Vale have you become a Universal Salvationist !!
Dont you know the teachings of your church and that of most mainline Protestant denominations ?

Where you been hiding?

Here I am trying to walk a fine line and you come along and push me over to one side!

 

[Madad21]

Here I am trying to walk a fine line and you come along and push me over to one side!

LOL

But seriously there was a guy on here a while back I think you might remember. he was a universalist and held this belief.
As it worked out it didnt matter how you argued with him he always refer to eternity as to mean time abiding, because in literal translations like the youngs eternal was mostly rendered as "age abiding". which made it hard to chase him down, his only downfall was his constantly using Scripture right out of context to back his beliefs. to the point he started his own thread where he wanted to argue why it is we should take scripture in context.
My back and forth with him lasted days and then I just gave up because he just started getting ridiculous and going in circles.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

LOL

But seriously there was a guy on here a while back I think you might remember. he was a universalist and held this belief.
As it worked out it didnt matter how you argued with him he always refer to eternity as to mean time abiding, because in literal translations like the youngs eternal was mostly rendered as "age abiding". which made it hard to chase him down, his only downfall was his constantly using Scripture right out of context to back his beliefs. to the point he started his own thread where he wanted to argue why it is we should take scripture in context.
My back and forth with him lasted days and then I just gave up because he just started getting ridiculous and going in circles.

I hope my position is just a little more humble. I really can't say for sure that God will relent on the full execution of sentence upon the reprobate and certainly He is within His right to carry out his sentence upon the unjust. I just leave open the possibility that even these will eventually be objects of mercy. I find Universalists to be arrogant, reading into Scripture what isn't there to build a body of doctrine that has no right to assert itself as legitimate. As you can see from my post, I'm not trying to change what Scripture says and fully agree it prescribes eternal loss to the unregenerate souls. I'm just also suggesting it's God's prerogative to relent on what He said He would do and has demonstrated this tendency repeatedly. By no definition am I a Univeralist.

 

[Madad21]

Dnt get me wrong Universalisim is a nice idea, but it certainly isnt supported by scripture.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Dnt get me wrong Universalisim is a nice idea, but it certainly isnt supported by scripture.

I'll make sure to pass that on to any Universalist who chances upon this thread.

 

[Forsakenone]

If it is eternal then it would have had to existed before the finite nature of the universe begin.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Jesus said Hell was created for the fallen angels. So, we can extrapolate from that - Hell was created some time after the rebellion, which satan started, and lost.
Hell had a beginning, when Jesus created it. Then Hell continues for eternity.

John

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Jesus said Hell was created for the fallen angels. So, we can extrapolate from that - Hell was created some time after the rebellion, which satan started, and lost.
Hell had a beginning, when Jesus created it. Then Hell continues for eternity.

John

And perhaps the title was an error because I agree with you that hell will indeed be eternal for the angels that sinned. In fact, I believe a far worse punishment awaits them than even the worst human being. It's the people that I wonder about, whether they will experience hell for eternity. I suspect no.

 

[Bronzesnake]

And perhaps the title was an error because I agree with you that hell will indeed be eternal for the angels that sinned. In fact, I believe a far worse punishment awaits them than even the worst human being. It's the people that I wonder about, whether they will experience hell for eternity. I suspect no.

Hello brother Vale.

When Jesus comes back - the second coming, not the rapture - An angel, probably Michael, grabs satan and locks him up for a thousand years in the "pit"
Once the thousand years is up, satan will be released for a short time, to tempt those who lived through the seven year wrath of God, and didn't accept the mark of the beast, or worship his image.

The Thousand Years
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

The Judgment of Satan
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The Judgment of the Dead
Here we can see that some people actually do go to Hell.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

John

 

[Madad21]

I'll make sure to pass that on to any Universalist who chances upon this thread.

cool thanks, tell em madad said so, in the meantime I will work on an interpretive dance.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Bronzesnake, we don't agree on your interpretation of the 1000 year period, which I don't believe to be a literal thousand years, but rather as a Hebrew idiom indicating a large number that cannot be counted. (God owns the cattle on a "thousand hills") Satan is bound right now and we are in the reign of Christ. It explains Western Civilization becoming the dominant culture around the world bringing Christianity to every corner of the globe. The Bible describes Satan as being held in check by Michael, but when Michael desists, Satan will be able to achieve his full potential, sending strong delusions upon the nations and persecuting Israel. The debate of millennialism belongs on a thread all it's own, as this thread is about the eternal fate of people, not angels.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Bronzesnake, we don't agree on your interpretation of the 1000 year period, which I don't believe to be a literal thousand years, but rather as a Hebrew idiom indicating a large number that cannot be counted. (God owns the cattle on a "thousand hills") Satan is bound right now and we are in the reign of Christ. It explains Western Civilization becoming the dominant culture around the world bringing Christianity to every corner of the globe. The Bible describes Satan as being held in check by Michael, but when Michael desists, Satan will be able to achieve his full potential, sending strong delusions upon the nations and persecuting Israel. The debate of millennialism belongs on a thread all it's own, as this thread is about the eternal fate of people, not angels.

Hey Vale.
When you say "we don't agree" who is "we"?

And perhaps the title was an error because I agree with you that hell will indeed be eternal for the angels that sinned. In fact, I believe a far worse punishment awaits them than even the worst human being. It's the people that I wonder about, whether they will experience hell for eternity. I suspect no.

Of course what I posted was relevant to this discussion Vale.
The reason I brought up the thousand year rain was to show that people also go to eternal Hell.
You stated that you did not believe people went to Hell for eternity, so I posted scripture which shows unambiguously that people do go to eternal Hell Vale.

John

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hey Vale.
When you say "we don't agree" who is "we"?


Of course what I posted was relevant to this discussion Vale.
The reason I brought up the thousand year rain was to show that people also go to eternal Hell.
You stated that you did not believe people went to Hell for eternity, so I posted scripture which shows unambiguously that people do go to eternal Hell Vale.

John

We means you and me.

And I don't fault you for your beliefs, as I stated more than once, THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. And nothing is amiss if it's carried out to the letter. Universalists who want to make the Bible say something other than it does are in error. All I'm suggesting is that God might relent as he has demonstrated an ability to do, allowing mercy even when eternal punishment is just. It's just a theory and you won't hear me promoting it as truth because I just don't know.

 

[Bronzesnake]

We means you and me.

And I don't fault you for your beliefs, as I stated more than once, THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. And nothing is amiss if it's carried out to the letter. Universalists who want to make the Bible say something other than it does are in error. All I'm suggesting is that God might relent as he has demonstrated an ability to do, allowing mercy even when eternal punishment is just. It's just a theory and you won't hear me promoting it as truth because I just don't know.

OK Vale, I see where you're coming from now brother.

John

 

[logabe]

Originally posted by me: http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/3168-Is-Hell-Eternal?s=c1bae3dbc9269787318ea3353a2690e3 I am saintmichaeldefendthem.

No I haven't become a Universal Salvationist.

And yes I know the teaching of my church and that of most mainline Protestant denominations.

My question doesn't dismiss the well entrenched doctrines and supporting scriptures that characterize hell as eternal in nature. Every bit of that can be true, but it can also not be the final word on the subject. I certainly don't question the justice by which God can hold true to his promise and carry out his just sentence upon the unregenerate in every detail. God is holy and there is no unrighteousness in him.

My question pertains specifically to people who, by all accounts, were deceived, not the fallen angels who deceived them in full lucidity of the consequences of their actions. My question pertains just to people, created Imago Dei and just a little lower than the angels, whom God so loved that he came in the form of us, dwelt amongst us, and died for our sins in hopes that all men would be saved.

I would state emphatically that God has every right to carry out his sentence, but I also note the many times where he hasn't. He decreed 490 years of captivity upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians, yet brings them out of exile 7 years early. He scattered the Jews among the many nations, and yet makes way for them to eventually become a nation again and showers his favor upon them during the intervening centuries. So my question is, is there room for parole in God's system of final judgment?

Time and time again, I see God's justice wrought upon those who practice unrighteousness, but time and time again, I also see that Mercy has the final word. As you can quickly gather and as I said from the start, the teachings of the Catholic Church and the beliefs of most Protestants aren't undone by this question. To teach the eternity of reprobation is to teach the truth right from holy Scripture but I think it cannot eliminate the possibility that God will go back on his word and eventually spare those suffering the torments of hell and offer them another chance to receive his love. It certainly is within his proven character to do so.

Please don't jump all over me, you Bible thumping fundamentalists! I'm just asking a question.

I have a question Vale.

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 18:34?

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over
to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed
him.

This was a bond slave that was forgiven by Jesus in this parable, but he refused to forgive
the debt that his fellow servant owed him... when the fellow servant begged him to do so.

The Master (Jesus) was very upset and put him in torment, but it sounds like it is not for
eternity. I don't want to put you on the spot, but I am interested in your answer so we all
can see both sides of this subject.

So my question... is hell temporary or for eternity?

Logabe

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I have a question Vale.

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 18:34?

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over
to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed
him.

This was a bond slave that was forgiven by Jesus in this parable, but he refused to forgive
the debt that his fellow servant owed him... when the fellow servant begged him to do so.

The Master (Jesus) was very upset and put him in torment, but it sounds like it is not for
eternity. I don't want to put you on the spot, but I am interested in your answer so we all
can see both sides of this subject.

So my question... is hell temporary or for eternity?

Logabe

That's actually a reference to Purgatory, not hell. The two have nothing in common. Purgatory is a preparation for those destined for heaven, hell is for those eternally lost souls.

And you missed the whole point of the OP. It isn't about whether hell is temporary or for eternity, it's whether or not God will relent in carrying out the full, well deserved sentence as he has demonstrated in the past to be in his character?

 

[Webers_Home]

That's actually a reference to Purgatory

What you've labeled a "reference" to a Purgatory is actually an allusion to
a Purgatory. Seeing as how there are no clear-cut mentions of a Purgatory
in the Bible, the Church has constructed its purgatorial doctrine upon
passages that suggest the possibility of one.

One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a Purgatory was
Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with
some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and
this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness. In
other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a Purgatory are unable to
sin; subsequently, they are sinless and will not commit new sins while
undergoing purgatorial discipline and purification.

None of the Church's Ecumenical Councils-- beginning with Nicaea 1 in 325
AD till Vatican 2 in 1962-65 AD, a total of twenty-one Ecumenical Councils in
all --have taken in hand to write Leo's concept into the Catechism; yet it
isn't uncommon for professing Catholics to refer to Leo's Bull as the
teachings of the Church. I have a hunch there will come a day when the
concept of sinless purgatorians will be stricken from Catholicism just as
Limbo already has.

However, I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for
souls in a Purgatory to be sinless, because if they weren't, then Rome’s
promise in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians,
would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while
interred in a Purgatory would add time to the penitent’s original sentence;
with the very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where
they would never be released.

In a nutshell; discipline is for correcting the flesh; whereas discipline is quite
useless for correcting spirit that's born of the Spirit because there is
nothing about spirit born of the Spirit that needs correction.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Well then; seeing as how according to Col 2:11-12 born-again Christians are
not taking the nature of their flesh with them when they depart this life,
then for them, time in a Purgatory would be tantamount to punishing an
innocent man.


Buen Camino
/

 

[Enquirer]

For all those opposed to Hell being eternal, all I ask is one Scripture to prove it, just one.
Show me where the Bible says that someday, whenever, a person will be released from Hell.
That's not much is it ?