Is Hell Eternal?

[williemac]

You right... that's why I'm not a Universalists. God isn't going to wave a magical wand and save everyone, but
God will use the Ages to come to correct the ones that didn't apply the Blood of Jesus in their lifetime. What we
haven't been taught properly is how God will judge an individual after he has been raised from the dead.

My point is, that person doesn't get away with anything, but he/she will have to go through a long correction to
pay the debt that he/she owes. For example, Paul said that the Law is weak (Rom. 8:3), all it could do was judge
and condemn the person's bad behavior. In other words, there was no forgiveness only condemnation. Also, if
a person killed two people the Law said, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, death for death. In this case all the man had
was one life. It was impossible for him to pay that debt, because the Law couldn't be satisfied in this circumstance.

Now... that's where the Ages come in. This man will be raised and will live two lifetimes in the carnal mind to pay
the debt of killing two people in his prior life. Through the wonderful righteous act of Jesus Christ on the cross this
man has the ability to pay his debt to society. He get's away with nothing, but he will be reconciled after he has
paid his last pence, and he will be accepted into the Kingdom of God.

We're not for off.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

with all due respect, universalism is simply the idea that no one will ultimately be lost. Therefore you are a universalist. It doesn't matter how you arrive at the end result. Just because you have a different version of how it plays out, you still maintain that all human beings will eventually be included in the kingdom og God. However, this is not biblcal. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. He did not say that the wages can be paid any other way. But this is what you maintain; that there is somehow another way. False doctrine by any other name is still false doctrine. Jesus in Math.10:28 did not speak of reconciliation or the payment of debt. What He spoke of is that in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), both body and soul would be destroyed.

The truth is that if a person refuses to be reconciled by way of the cross...for whatever reason....he will not be allowed to live. God will not permit sin to remain and pollute His kingdom or harm His loved ones. The sinner who will not be reconciled will be done away with. In John 6:50,51, living forever is designated only to they who partake of Jesus. There is no mention of the rest going into a program of debt payment to society. The alternative He gives in that passage is to die. The same applies in John 3:16: two alternatives...everlasting life or perish. In your version, perish means something else. It means a program of debt payment. If it doesn't, then there is no second alternative at all. No one will actually perish in your version. We are told that it is appointed man once to die and after that, the judgment,( albeit there is a lengthy period of time before the final judgment, whereby those awaiting are in conscious torment in Hades.) Your version is that after that, one enters a program with no wrath or death.

With all due respect, what enticed you to accept this nonesense?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

with all due respect, universalism is simply the idea that no one will ultimately be lost. Therefore you are a universalist. It doesn't matter how you arrive at the end result. Just because you have a different version of how it plays out, you still maintain that all human beings will eventually be included in the kingdom og God. However, this is not biblcal. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. He did not say that the wages can be paid any other way. But this is what you maintain; that there is somehow another way. False doctrine by any other name is still false doctrine. Jesus in Math.10:28 did not speak of reconciliation or the payment of debt. What He spoke of is that in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), both body and soul would be destroyed.

The truth is that if a person refuses to be reconciled by way of the cross...for whatever reason....he will not be allowed to live. God will not permit sin to remain and pollute His kingdom or harm His loved ones. The sinner who will not be reconciled will be done away with. In John 6:50,51, living forever is designated only to they who partake of Jesus. There is no mention of the rest going into a program of debt payment to society. The alternative He gives in that passage is to die. The same applies in John 3:16: two alternatives...everlasting life or perish. In your version, perish means something else. It means a program of debt payment. If it doesn't, then there is no second alternative at all. No one will actually perish in your version. We are told that it is appointed man once to die and after that, the judgment,( albeit there is a lengthy period of time before the final judgment, whereby those awaiting are in conscious torment in Hades.) Your version is that after that, one enters a program with no wrath or death.

With all due respect, what enticed you to accept this nonesense?

I agree that logabe fits the definition of a universalist for sheer lack of humility in his position. Missing is the acknowledgment that the Bible prescribes eternal loss for the reprobate and that God would be perfectly just in carrying out this sentence to the fullest. I believe universalists re-write in their mind what the Bible is communicating regarding the permanence of perdition. This is where, as I said, I'm miles apart from logabe.

But when you ask what enticed him to accept "this (nonsense)" I would have to say probably the same thing as what motivates my viewpoint on this. The Bible gives us many images of mercy having the final say, even when justice is impeccable. Jesus abandons 99 sheep to go after the one that strayed, Jesus preaches to the souls in captivity, and also there's my example of the 70 weeks of Babylonian captivity being cut short. There's a running theme in the Bible that God is just to punish the wicked, but even in punishing the wicked there exists tinges of God's mercy, even when mercy is undeserved.

Nothing you're saying is wrong.

I wanted that last sentence to have it's own paragraph for emphasis, so there be no misunderstanding. Where universalists err is failing to acknowledge what the Bible says and failing to assent to God's right to carry out eternal punishment of the wicked. Because I've seen aspects of God's character other than his pluperfect justice, I leave open the possibility that provision has been made to eventually reconcile all of His offspring to himself. For God would be just in doing that as well.

 

[williemac]

I agree that logabe fits the definition of a universalist for sheer lack of humility in his position. Missing is the acknowledgment that the Bible prescribes eternal loss for the reprobate and that God would be perfectly just in carrying out this sentence to the fullest. I believe universalists re-write in their mind what the Bible is communicating regarding the permanence of perdition. This is where, as I said, I'm miles apart from logabe.

But when you ask what enticed him to accept "this (nonsense)" I would have to say probably the same thing as what motivates my viewpoint on this. The Bible gives us many images of mercy having the final say, even when justice is impeccable. Jesus abandons 99 sheep to go after the one that strayed, Jesus preaches to the souls in captivity, and also there's my example of the 70 weeks of Babylonian captivity being cut short. There's a running theme in the Bible that God is just to punish the wicked, but even in punishing the wicked there exists tinges of God's mercy, even when mercy is undeserved.

Nothing you're saying is wrong.

I wanted that last sentence to have it's own paragraph for emphasis, so there be no misunderstanding. Where universalists err is failing to acknowledge what the Bible says and failing to assent to God's right to carry out eternal punishment of the wicked. Because I've seen aspects of God's character other than his pluperfect justice, I leave open the possibility that provision has been made to eventually reconcile all of His offspring to himself. For God would be just in doing that as well.

Thanks for your reply. If you have ever read or remembered my postion on this, I do not see forever conscious torment in scripture pertaining to mankind. What I see is extermination. I do not leave open the possibility of eventual reconciliation of all mankind. You used the word "offspring" as though all men fit into that category. That is not the case. Mankind is a creation of God, not His offspring. We only become offspring of God by way of the new birth, where it is said one is a new creation, born of the Spirit. Offspring is produced through reproduction, not creation. It is not until His Seed enters into our being that we become offspring.

As far as reconciliation goes, check out 2 Cor.5:19,20. As we can see clearly in that passage, God has already reconclied the world to Himself. There is not future addition to this. It is done. But the passage also reveals that God pleads with the world to respond and be reconclied. This is in some way similar to a marriage proposal. The man proposes and the woman responds with a yes (or no).

The purpose of reconciliation is to enter into a relationship with God. John 17:3 describes eternal life as knowing God. But relationship is not a one way experience. It requires the willingness of both parties. So in any kind of doctrine that leaves out man's willingness, we enter into a control situation whereby the whole dynamic of intimacy and relationship is changed and made meaningless. Look at our own ideas in society. How do we reply to those who force themselves on others against thier will? We incarcerate them. But some would put God into this scenario. How is that possible? We are patterned after Him, not the other way around. We are made in His image. If therefore we are appalled at such controlling and forceful behavior, then maybe we should consider that it is because we are made to understand how relationship should work. Why would we allow oursleves to vary from this in God's case?

He courted us with a loving display of sacrifice at Calvary. He so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, reconciling the world to Himself. If rconciliation ended with this and was completed without a response required, then it would be obvious, both in our world and in the bible.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Thanks for your reply. If you have ever read or remembered my postion on this, I do not see forever conscious torment in scripture pertaining to mankind. What I see is extermination. I do not leave open the possibility of eventual reconciliation of all mankind. You used the word "offspring" as though all men fit into that category. That is not the case. Mankind is a creation of God, not His offspring. We only become offspring of God by way of the new birth, where it is said one is a new creation, born of the Spirit. Offspring is produced through reproduction, not creation. It is not until His Seed enters into our being that we become offspring.

As far as reconciliation goes, check out 2 Cor.5:19,20. As we can see clearly in that passage, God has already reconclied the world to Himself. There is not future addition to this. It is done. But the passage also reveals that God pleads with the world to respond and be reconclied. This is in some way similar to a marriage proposal. The man proposes and the woman responds with a yes (or no).

The purpose of reconciliation is to enter into a relationship with God. John 17:3 describes eternal life as knowing God. But relationship is not a one way experience. It requires the willingness of both parties. So in any kind of doctrine that leaves out man's willingness, we enter into a control situation whereby the whole dynamic of intimacy and relationship is changed and made meaningless. Look at our own ideas in society. How do we reply to those who force themselves on others against thier will? We incarcerate them. But some would put God into this scenario. How is that possible? We are patterned after Him, not the other way around. We are made in His image. If therefore we are appalled at such controlling and forceful behavior, then maybe we should consider that it is because we are made to understand how relationship should work. Why would we allow oursleves to vary from this in God's case?

He courted us with a loving display of sacrifice at Calvary. He so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, reconciling the world to Himself. If rconciliation ended with this and was completed without a response required, then it would be obvious, both in our world and in the bible.

I'm sorry, but "we are his offspring" is a biblical reference from Acts 17:28, so I was on solid ground with that claim.

As far as the nihilist viewpoint, it raises far more troubling issues than that of eternal or defined perdition. Can God, who made man in his own image, efface his own creation, rubbing him out as if he never existed? Would he have the right to do so? Do we have the right to kill our children simply because we were the ones who brought them into the world? Our very existence as sentient beings cries out at the injustice that some force could wipe us out of existence. We are eternal beings and we have the right to perpetual existence, a right, I believe, that even God cannot violate.

I think that many viewpoints that dissent from interminable punishment of the wicked are coping mechanisms our minds conjure because we recoil at the notion that God could subject man to such cruelty. We seek out alternatives so that our conscience does not accuse God of wrongdoing. Coming to terms with the fact that God may punish the wicked in perpetuity and be just in doing so is a difficult endeavor for the human mind. I would like to believe that eventually all souls will find eventual redemption, but I also have to accept that it might not be so.

I also take issue with the idea that our response is not required. But it's a popular Christian belief that such a transaction of the will must occur in this lifetime. While we're called to repent "while it is called 'today'". God works out salvation in life and in death, confounding all limitations, even those we theologically impose upon Him. The Bible says "every knee shall bow, those in heaven, on the earth, and beneath the earth...and every tongue confess" the name of Jesus. That highly inclusive statement portends hope, I believe, even for the damned, and it certainly more than implies the response necessary for salvation.

Look at the three of us, arguing from three different points of the same triangle!

 

[logabe]

with all due respect, universalism is simply the idea that no one will ultimately be lost. Therefore you are a universalist. It doesn't matter how you arrive at the end result. Just because you have a different version of how it plays out, you still maintain that all human beings will eventually be included in the kingdom og God. However, this is not biblcal. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. He did not say that the wages can be paid any other way. But this is what you maintain; that there is somehow another way. False doctrine by any other name is still false doctrine. Jesus in Math.10:28 did not speak of reconciliation or the payment of debt. What He spoke of is that in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), both body and soul would be destroyed.

The truth is that if a person refuses to be reconciled by way of the cross...for whatever reason....he will not be allowed to live. God will not permit sin to remain and pollute His kingdom or harm His loved ones. The sinner who will not be reconciled will be done away with. In John 6:50,51, living forever is designated only to they who partake of Jesus. There is no mention of the rest going into a program of debt payment to society. The alternative He gives in that passage is to die. The same applies in John 3:16: two alternatives...everlasting life or perish. In your version, perish means something else. It means a program of debt payment. If it doesn't, then there is no second alternative at all. No one will actually perish in your version. We are told that it is appointed man once to die and after that, the judgment,( albeit there is a lengthy period of time before the final judgment, whereby those awaiting are in conscious torment in Hades.) Your version is that after that, one enters a program with no wrath or death.

With all due respect, what enticed you to accept this nonesense?

Yes... I believe everyone will eventually be reconciled (made friendly) and have a relationship with
Jesus, but I do not believe that everyone will be saved from the Lake of Fire. If that's your definition
of being a Universalists that's okay... I've been called a lot worse, but let's get to the facts.

What are we being saved from?

DEATH!!!

What is death? Rom. 8:6 says,

6 For to be carnally minded is death;

My point is, we are already in death or vanity, as Paul calls it in Rom. 8:20. Everyone of us have a
carnal mind and the ability to live in it if we choose.

Jesus died @ Calvary to give us the ability to walk out of the carnal mind (death), and live a victorious
life on this earth, but the real life comes when this mortal puts on immortality. No one except Jesus has
immortality, which is, living without a carnal mind. When Jesus comes back the fruit of the harvest will
be gathered and the carnal mind will be eliminated from the ones that matured by submitting to the
purpose and the plan of God.

What is the purpose and plan of God?

Isa. 9:7 says,

7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of
peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish
it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on
and forevermore . The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish
this.

God is going to establish His Government upon this earth where there will be justice and righteousness
that will flourish and continue to INCREASE to no end. In other words, until God has reconciled his
offspring back into His Kingdom. That is His Plan.

Can He do it? Isaiah believes He can. Paul believes He can. But do you believe He can?

Col. 1:20 says,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made
peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether
things on earth or things in heaven.

Willie, all mankind is God's offspring because we all have a spirit and that makes them a product of the
Creator. Man has lost the ability to know that he is kin to God by creation. God owns everything, but man
has lost his way. The plan that I referred to will be accomplished whether we believe it or not. God will
leave the 99 and go get the one, because Jesus so loved the world.

But what about the ones that refuse to be reconciled in their lifetime? They will be reconciled when they
are raised from the dead and stand before God. Isa. 45:23 says,

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in
righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow,
every tongue will swear allegiance.

That sounds like what Paul said in Philippians. All of these people will bow and confess so they can be
reconciled. At the Great White Throne ALL will realize their mistake and be ashamed and begin to confess
Him, because God said He swears they will do it.

My point is, when they confess and bow to Jesus, they will be accepting what Jesus done on the cross. Isn't
that what Paul said.

Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.

We are hung up on not accepting Jesus in our lifetime. God has allowed this lifetime to see who wants to be
in His Government. If you learn to forgive and understand the ways of the Lord, God will give you the heathen
to teach them His ways.

Bottom line is death (Hell or the Lake of Fire) will be destroyed because Jesus died @ Calvary.

1st Cor. 15:26 says,

26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[williemac]

Logabe. Thes points you are making are well and good, but what I see you doing is making assumptions and connections and then using these points to justify them. For example: reconcling all things to Himself. Your conclusion.... All human beings will eventually live forever in God's kingdom. You are taking one statement to mean what you desire it to mean. Another example...every knee shall bow and declare Jesus as Lord. Your conclusion...this means all human beings will eventually live forever in God's kingdom. Again, a connection that cannot be conclusively made from one statement.

You have no way of proving that God had the agenda to first give men the ability to make decisions and choices and then ultimately manipulate or influence every last one of these choices to His will. In fact, the bible proves just the opposite. God gave instructions to Adam and Eve. They disobeyed them. He gave laws. Man could not keep them. Why did He allow men to go their own way in the first place? Look around at the pain and suffering this world has endured for centuries. Are you telling us that God allowed these things even though He could have prevented them all along? It takes the lake of fire to change a person's mind? Where does the bible say that is the purpose of the lake of fire? Jesus said itr is a place where both body and soul will be destroyed, not changed.

He had angels in heaven under His reign that rebelled and were cast out. For at least three of these, the bible speaks of torment forever and ever. So now you think that God is able and will change men's minds but He has no desire or plan to do the same for the fallen angels?

Then Jesus said that there are two possibilites for a man. To live forever or die, perish. You are saying that the latter will not actually happen. Therefore this renders Jesus a deceiver in suggesting it is a possible end for some, because you claim that all will live forever and none will die or perish or be destroyed (both body and soul in Gehenna re:Math.10:28).

So what am I saying? Your conclusions from a few passages conflict with and contradict other passages.

I have had this discussion with others concerning passages I have mentioned and one that stands out a great deal to me is Math.10:28. Jesus advises them there to not fear they who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. I have asked some people about this in relation to forever conscious torment. My point is that God indeed can kill the soul. However some have replied that though He can, He will not. I hope you don't follow that reasoning. Why would Jesus tell them to fear God for something He has no intention of doing? The passage is not talking about changing the soul, reforming the soul, reconciling the soul, but rather killing the soul. There can be no mistaking the intention of the context. We all know what killing the body means. A dead body is a corpse with no life in it. When Jesus says " kill the body but cannot kill the soul" He could not possibly be changing the meaning of the word 'kill' in mid sentence. To do so would be grammatically wrong and inappropriate. Can a soul die? Yes. Will God kill the souls of the damned? Apparently. The word 'destroy' is not a less significant word that kill, but rather carries more weight. It is used because the place that Jesus used as an allegory to the lake of fire was Gehenna. It was in simple terms, a garbage dump where refuse was taken to be burned up and therefore "destroyed". This is the example Jesus used to give us a picture of what is accomplished in the final judgment. There is no redeeming factor in being thrown into the fire in this passage. Its purpose is to be rid of something that no longer has value, not to transform it.

 

[logabe]

Logabe. Thes points you are making are well and good, but what I see you doing is making assumptions and connections and then using these points to justify them. For example: reconcling all things to Himself. Your conclusion.... All human beings will eventually live forever in God's kingdom. You are taking one statement to mean what you desire it to mean. Another example...every knee shall bow and declare Jesus as Lord. Your conclusion...this means all human beings will eventually live forever in God's kingdom. Again, a connection that cannot be conclusively made from one statement.

You have no way of proving that God had the agenda to first give men the ability to make decisions and choices and then ultimately manipulate or influence every last one of these choices to His will. In fact, the bible proves just the opposite. God gave instructions to Adam and Eve. They disobeyed them. He gave laws. Man could not keep them. Why did He allow men to go their own way in the first place? Look around at the pain and suffering this world has endured for centuries. Are you telling us that God allowed these things even though He could have prevented them all along? It takes the lake of fire to change a person's mind? Where does the bible say that is the purpose of the lake of fire? Jesus said itr is a place where both body and soul will be destroyed, not changed.

He had angels in heaven under His reign that rebelled and were cast out. For at least three of these, the bible speaks of torment forever and ever. So now you think that God is able and will change men's minds but He has no desire or plan to do the same for the fallen angels?

Then Jesus said that there are two possibilites for a man. To live forever or die, perish. You are saying that the latter will not actually happen. Therefore this renders Jesus a deceiver in suggesting it is a possible end for some, because you claim that all will live forever and none will die or perish or be destroyed (both body and soul in Gehenna re:Math.10:28).

So what am I saying? Your conclusions from a few passages conflict with and contradict other passages.

I have had this discussion with others concerning passages I have mentioned and one that stands out a great deal to me is Math.10:28. Jesus advises them there to not fear they who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. I have asked some people about this in relation to forever conscious torment. My point is that God indeed can kill the soul. However some have replied that though He can, He will not. I hope you don't follow that reasoning. Why would Jesus tell them to fear God for something He has no intention of doing? The passage is not talking about changing the soul, reforming the soul, reconciling the soul, but rather killing the soul. There can be no mistaking the intention of the context. We all know what killing the body means. A dead body is a corpse with no life in it. When Jesus says " kill the body but cannot kill the soul" He could not possibly be changing the meaning of the word 'kill' in mid sentence. To do so would be grammatically wrong and inappropriate. Can a soul die? Yes. Will God kill the souls of the damned? Apparently. The word 'destroy' is not a less significant word that kill, but rather carries more weight. It is used because the place that Jesus used as an allegory to the lake of fire was Gehenna. It was in simple terms, a garbage dump where refuse was taken to be burned up and therefore "destroyed". This is the example Jesus used to give us a picture of what is accomplished in the final judgment. There is no redeeming factor in being thrown into the fire in this passage. Its purpose is to be rid of something that no longer has value, not to transform it.

Willie, I'm remodeling right now and I'm pressed for time, but I will try to answer all
of your questions tomorrow.

What you can do is take a look @ Daniel 7:9-14 and let me know what your take is
on these scriptures. It might answer some of your questions that you have presented
to me. Keep in mind the Kingdom is progressing.

I'm trying not to assume anything, but if you read this and study it with an open mind
God will begin to let you see what Daniel is saying. Please understand it is not me telling
you this, but Daniel is telling you so you can get the revelation of the Lake of Fire.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[williemac]

Willie, I'm remodeling right now and I'm pressed for time, but I will try to answer all
of your questions tomorrow.

What you can do is take a look @ Daniel 7:9-14 and let me know what your take is
on these scriptures. It might answer some of your questions that you have presented
to me. Keep in mind the Kingdom is progressing.

I'm trying not to assume anything, but if you read this and study it with an open mind
God will begin to let you see what Daniel is saying. Please understand it is not me telling
you this, but Daniel is telling you so you can get the revelation of the Lake of Fire.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Thanks for sharing that passage. But I have to admit I have no idea what it is in it that I am supposed to see that would change my viewpoint about the lake of fire. Here is a quote from you:

Bottom line is death (Hell or the Lake of Fire) will be destroyed because Jesus died @ Calvary.

1st Cor. 15:26 says,

26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Again, I will comment that we should not make assumptions about this kind of promise, or draw conclusions that take license with what is being said. In order for death to be abolished, why assumed that this requires all who have died to come back to life? Why couldn't it simply mean that all who remain will not die? If no more will die, then death will have successfully been abolished. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, it was because it bore no fruit, therefore rendering it useless. He didn't fix the tree. He rather ended its life. This is a picture for us about God's position concerning life. A supporting picture is found in the lesson of the talents. Eah man was given money and told to use it to bear fruit. The person who dug a hole and buried it showed a refusal to bear any fruit at all. The master indicated it would have been enough to simply but it in the bank and allow it to collect interest.

I have observed that the one thing that all of life has in common is reproduction. God gave Adam and Eve the command to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. With the strong sex drive in man's soul, its not like this was going to be a hard command to obey. However, the self exalting and self serving plans of God's enemies represent a refusal to fulfill one's God given destiny in life to bear the fruit of His choosing. This is what the man did when he buried his talent in the ground. He opposed the plan. All indications and examples in the bible concerning God's response to this are the same. They reveal His heart in the matter. The sinner can indeed be reconciled. But all those who oppose God by refusing to be a part of His plan and purpose, are met with the same response from God. They are, or will be, done away with.

And all those who at least agree in principle with His authority and His Godhead, will be made whole. This is how He reconciles all things to Himself. We know and can clarify these things precisely because of words such as death, destroy, perish. They mean what they mean. There is no trick or hidden meaning to these words, nor some kind of differing bible use for them. In John 6:50,51, Jesus gave two alternatives. He said one will either live forever or die. To die in that passage must therefore mean something other than living forever. In the bible, we have a second resurrection which leads to a second death. All those who are part of the first resurrection are considered blessed, for over them the second death has no power.(Rev.20:6) The same cannot be said for the others. Those in the first resurrection live during the 1000 yr. reign of Christ. After that is the great white throne judgment, where the rest who are still in Hades come back into a body and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire where both body and soul are destroyed. There is absolutely no picture of reconciliation or restoration in any description of the lake of fire, not even in Daniel.

Yes, it is God's desire that none should perish but all come to repentance ( a change of mind). But He is not in control of that. He is not a puppet master, nor does He produce robots. Concering the change of another's mind, He can only ask, plead, command, show His love of course, and even warn of judgment. But control? No way. The perceived delay in His coming reveals His great longsuffering (patience). In giving man a free thinking mind, He has waved any ability He might have to control that mind.

 

[logabe]

Willie, I'm remodeling right now and I'm pressed for time, but I will try to answer all
of your questions tomorrow.

What you can do is take a look @ Daniel 7:9-14 and let me know what your take is
on these scriptures. It might answer some of your questions that you have presented
to me. Keep in mind the Kingdom is progressing.

I'm trying not to assume anything, but if you read this and study it with an open mind
God will begin to let you see what Daniel is saying. Please understand it is not me telling
you this, but Daniel is telling you so you can get the revelation of the Lake of Fire.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Okay... let's talk about Col. 1:20:

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things
in heaven.

Paul is telling us that everything that God created will be reconciled one day. That is as
plain as Paul could say it. It would be really hard to twist this statement, but we still need
a witness to verify this very controversial scripture. John speaks in Rev. 5:13,

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on
the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all
things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on
the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor
and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Did God create every human being on the face of the earth, or did someone else create a
race that we didn't know about? I think we are all in agreement that God created everyone
and everything in the beginning. Well John is saying the same thing that Paul said, which
establishes a 2nd witness. John is showing us what will happen when all has been reconciled
back to God. They will be WORSHIPPING their creator.

I'm still not convinced that it really means God will reconcile all peoples back to Himself. Let's
see what Paul says in Eph. 1:9-12,

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to
His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of
the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things
in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined
according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of
His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would
be to the praise of His glory.

Wow... Paul said a lot things in these four scriptures that are really hard to understand if a person
isn't familiar with the fullness of times . The summing up of all things in Christ refers to what Paul
spoke of in 1st Cor. 15:22-23,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order:

Meaning eventually one day everyone will be in Christ, but not all @ the same time. It will take a very
long time for everyone to be in Christ, but in the fullness of times, God will declare a Jubilee. Let's have
three witnesses... Acts 3:19-21 says,

19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped
away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the
presence of the Lord;
20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of
all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy
prophets from ancient time.

You see the pattern? Peter is speaking of a time when things will change and God will do His Thing
called the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS confirming the statements that Paul and John spoke
of in other places, but all three were saying the same thing. Repent or you will be cut off from this
time spoken. Most Christians think He is saying you will be cut off (go to hell forever), but He is
saying you will cut off from that age of Tabernacles where you can be a king and a priest (Rev. 20:
4-6).

As for as me not believing that they want perish is just not true. I believe they will perish more than
most people. I just believe it isn't for eternity, but they will perish during the AGE of Restoration and
want be able to enjoy immortality first, as in the First Fruits. God will not use them because they didn't
learn how to walk in the Spirit during their lifetime, so they squandered their opportunity of enjoying
the things that the Lord has promised them that love him. 1st Cor. 2:9 says,

9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND
EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART
OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

What has God prepared for them that love Him?

The Tabernacles Age where we become kings and priest to administer justice and righteousness to the
people that will be born. Do you want to be a disciple and do God's work of restoring the kingdom, and
making it the best it has ever been upon this earth? God is preparing to step on the scene and give the
saints of the Most High the Dominion Mandate. Daniel 7:18 says,

18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and
possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'

The KJV says,

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and
possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The KJV uses ever, for ever and ever, but anyone can see that the writer was speaking of the Ages. I
believe that this keeps Christians from understanding the scriptures when it is translated to English this
way.

What difference does it make?

It makes a lot of difference if you think the writer is saying eternity, but he is saying of that Age. There
is an Age coming that will change how we operate in the Kingdom of God, but that Age will be just the
beginning of the restoration, and it will end, but the restoration will continue in another Age until the
fullness of time has been complete.

It's time to get excited about the Plan of the Restoration that will take place, because God wants you to
be a part of it.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[KingJ]

What I believe is God will deal with every human being that has ever lived in the ages to come.
That is how God will make the many righteous. The ones that didn't allow Jesus to cover their sins
in this Age will be cast into the Lake of Fire for correction, but some will be corrected in their lifetime.

Matt 15:18 But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them and John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil, both point to a chosen nature. Something that cannot be corrected without over riding the individuals free will. Which would be evil of God.

God needs to make an eternal home for those that hate Him. If there was any hope of them being in heaven, they would already be in heaven. We need to understand that the verdict for those who desire what is good, but yet still do evil things, is heaven via Jesus.

Sin does not get us into hell. Absence of sin does not get us into heaven.

As far as reconciliation goes, check out 2 Cor.5:19,20. As we can see clearly in that passage, God has already reconclied the world to Himself. There is not future addition to this. It is done. But the passage also reveals that God pleads with the world to respond and be reconclied. This is in some way similar to a marriage proposal. The man proposes and the woman responds with a yes (or no).

This makes sense except for when we add your post # 48, what you actually believe is in NO WAY similar to a marriage proposal.

Marriage proposal = Court a woman, propose to her, respect her decision whether it is a yes or no = Good.
Your belief = Court a woman, propose to her, ANNIHILATE HER if she says no = Evil.

God is not evil.

I find all your other beliefs sane. But annihilation :huh:.

Will people be burning, but never burnt up as many speculate? No, not at all. People will be tormented by their past, but won't be tortured beyond that, for God is not cruel. Certainly in the parable of Lazareth and the Rich Man, the man who was in hell could, even amidst the torments of unrelenting heat, thirst, and discomfort, carry out a cognitive conversation. He wasn't writhing and screaming in pitched agony as would be expected of somebody aflame.

Agreed and amen on the underlined!

 

[williemac]

This makes sense except for when we add your post # 48, what you actually believe is in NO WAY similar to a marriage proposal.

Marriage proposal = Court a woman, propose to her, respect her decision whether it is a yes or no = Good.
Your belief = Court a woman, propose to her, ANNIHILATE HER if she says no = Evil.

God is not evil.

I find all your other beliefs sane. But annihilation :huh:.

Thank you for the compliment. But concerning annihilation, I can understand what you are saying but disagree with your analysis. I said "similar", not identical to a marriage proposal. We do not annihilate anyone. But Jesus used the word "destroy" in Math.10:28. What's the difference? Court a woman, propose to her, but destroy her if she says no? If you do not like the analogy because of the possibility of annihilation, then you could not possibly like it with the possiblity of destruction, for the same reason.

As well, I don't use the word annihilation. I use extermination, for what it's worth. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Seems that so many are fine with this but somehow balk at the thought of something final concerning death. It's all ok. if God sends a person to everlasting conscious torment but He becomes intolerable if He exterminates a person?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not the right avenue or argument to be using in determining the truth on this subject. We don't get to question or judge God. We simply must understand and accept what He has determined to do, no matter how we emotionally connect with it. I don't care to listen to an argument for forever conscious human torment if it is relying on a logical assessment, or some kind of reasoning that this is fair of God to do so. These reasonings are not ours to decide. The bible is the final authority....period.

Those who are saved enter into a relationship with God. Those who are not saved are destroyed, both body and soul. Will they ever come back in a resurrection (after the second resurrection and second death)? No. Their punishment is permanent. Another word for this is everlasting. Death and destruction is an everlasting punishment. It lasts forever. For the life of me, I marvel that some use this term to mean that a person is consciously experiencing being punished.They might not admit that this is simply the attaching of a pre determined conclusion onto a term (everlasting punishment), but that is precisely what they are doing in my humble opinion.

 

[Chuckt]

Hell is eternal as we will see but Jesus said "I am alive forevermore" and they are the same words translated "forever and ever". If some versions translate God as everlasting then you have no choice but to translate hell as being everlasting because the different translations use the same words for both hell and God. Since the old heavens and the earth will pass away, the old location of hell will be passed away or thrown into the new location which is the lake of fire.

Jesus said,"I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore [eis tous aionas ton aionon] (Rev. 1:17-18, NASB).

Revelation 20:10: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [eis tous aionas ton aionon]."

The reality is that you can't translate the phrase about hell as being not eternal without translating the phrase about God as being not eternal.

Not one of these translations translates "aionion" as anything other than "eternal" or similar:

New International Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

New Living Translation
"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

English Standard Version
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

New American Standard Bible
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

King James Bible
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then He will also say to those on the left, Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!

International Standard Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

NET Bible
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then he will say also to those who are at his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed ones, into eternal fire, that which was prepared for The Devil and for his Angels.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Then the king will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels!

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then he shall also say unto those who shall be on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

King James 2000 Bible
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

American King James Version
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

American Standard Version
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Darby Bible Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

English Revised Version
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

Webster's Bible Translation
Then will he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Weymouth New Testament
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

World English Bible
Then he will say also to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Young's Literal Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

http://bible.cc/matthew/25-41.htm

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and hell delivered up the dead. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire indicating that it isn't the same location.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The people in hell were then cast into the lake of fire indicating a different position.

Quote:
"Verse 5: 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.'

"The 'resurrection of the just' is mentioned in Luke 14:13-14, and the 'resurrection of life' is definitely distinguished from the 'resurrection unto damnation' in John 5:29. Here in Revelation 20:5 we learn for the first time the interval that separates the two resurrections: One thousand years. When Jesus comes in the Rapture, only the righteous will be raised (I Thess. 4:13:18).

"When He comes in the end of the ages, only the wicked will be raised and will appear before the great White Throne to be judged. The doctrine of a general resurrection- a time when the good and bad, just and unjust are raised-is certainly disproved by this text. In John 5:28-29 we read, 'Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

-p.487, The Revelation, Verse by Verse Study, The Gospel Hour, Inc., Dr. Oliver B. Green.

Quote:
"The throne set up in Matthew 25:31 is not the great White Throne of Revelation 20:11. The former was set up before the Millennium, and the parties judged there will be living persons on earth-the sheep and the goat nations. The great White Throne judgment is set up to reward all the wicked dead according to their wickedness. The judgment in Matthew 25:31 has to do with nations; the great White Throne judgment has to do with individuals."

-p.498, ibid.

[SIZE=10pt]Rev 22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

At the judgment, it says they will keep on sinning "still do wrong" and you can't still do wrong if you are annihilated. I know this is the NASB and not the King James but the definitions for the King James in the Blue Letter Bible support the way it was translated in the NASB even though the King James translators didn't bring out the meaning.[/SIZE]

Psalm 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

David or this messianic passage is applied to a person meaning that the worm is symbolic of a person.

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The sinner is compared to a worm that "dieth not". He isn't compared to a worm that dies.
Annihilationism verses Immortality
by Chuckt on Mon May 19, 2008

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

If the dead shall be raised incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:52) and if the mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:54) and if death is swallowed up in victory, how will the dead be annihilated if they are immortal?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Their bodies are awakened to everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I've been reading "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament" (Volume III) by Dr. Kenneth Wuest who was one of the NASB translators and was also a professor of Greek.

He quotes Moulton and Milligan's "Vocabulary of the Greek Testament", Grimm-Thayer, Webster's International Dictionary, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Gree, by Herman Cremer, D.D., the LXX, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (classical).

Wuest says "Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word 'prepared' in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results."-p.40 (second section of books bundled together in one book)

Wuest also writes "As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have 'sin' instead of 'damnation,' which latter word appears in the A.V., as translation of a Greek word meaning 'judgment," and which is a rejected reading. The words 'in danger of' are from a Greek word which refers to anyone 'held in anything so that he cannot escape.' Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have 'everlasting destruction.' The Greek word translated 'destruction' does not mean 'annihilation.' Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: 'ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.' Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings 'ruin, destruction, death.' The word comes from the verb meaning 'to destroy.' But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile."-p. 41
“And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”-Mark 1:24

[SIZE=14pt]The word for “destroy” in Mark 1:24 is apollumi and it is used of the unclean spirit. The idea is “to perish” of persons but Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words describes it as “...not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well being.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”-Matthew 10:28[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”-Matthew 23:33[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those who do not believe in hell have a serious problem with this verse. Those who believe you have to wait until the white throne judgment to be judged have a serious problem too. Abideth means:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3306&t=KJV[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1) to remain, abide

a) in reference to place

1) to sojourn, tarry

2) not to depart

a) to continue to be present

b) to be held, kept, continually

b) in reference to time

1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure

a) of persons, to survive, live

c) in reference to state or condition

1) to remain as one, not to become another or different

2) to wait for, await one


And that is my teaching[/SIZE]
The punishment of the unsaved is not annihilation, nor will they be restored after some time of punishment. In other words, the Bible does not allow for conditional immortality (final annihilation) or classic universalism (restoration after a time of punishment). The same word that is used for eternal judgment (Heb 6:2), is used for eternal life (John 3:15), and for the eternal God (1 Ti 1:17). If one of these is temporary, then the others must bee too. Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28) and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11). Again there is no way to escape the conclusion that if God is everlasting, so is punishment. It is based on misinterpretations of Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Colossians 1:20, but it completely ignores the biblical teaching of the diverse destinies of the righteous and wicked (Mt 25:46, Jn 5:29; Ro 2:8-10; Rev 20:10,15).
[SIZE=14pt]-p. 184, A Survey of Bible Doctrine by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie[/SIZE]

 

[KingJ]

Thank you for the compliment. But concerning annihilation, I can understand what you are saying but disagree with your analysis. I said "similar", not identical to a marriage proposal. We do not annihilate anyone. But Jesus used the word "destroy" in Math.10:28. What's the difference? Court a woman, propose to her, but destroy her if she says no? If you do not like the analogy because of the possibility of annihilation, then you could not possibly like it with the possiblity of destruction, for the same reason.

As well, I don't use the word annihilation. I use extermination, for what it's worth. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Seems that so many are fine with this but somehow balk at the thought of something final concerning death. It's all ok. if God sends a person to everlasting conscious torment but He becomes intolerable if He exterminates a person?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not the right avenue or argument to be using in determining the truth on this subject. We don't get to question or judge God. We simply must understand and accept what He has determined to do, no matter how we emotionally connect with it. I don't care to listen to an argument for forever conscious human torment if it is relying on a logical assessment, or some kind of reasoning that this is fair of God to do so. These reasonings are not ours to decide. The bible is the final authority....period.

Those who are saved enter into a relationship with God. Those who are not saved are destroyed, both body and soul. Will they ever come back in a resurrection (after the second resurrection and second death)? No. Their punishment is permanent. Another word for this is everlasting. Death and destruction is an everlasting punishment. It lasts forever. For the life of me, I marvel that some use this term to mean that a person is consciously experiencing being punished.They might not admit that this is simply the attaching of a pre determined conclusion onto a term (everlasting punishment), but that is precisely what they are doing in my humble opinion.

You are making two mistakes imho ^_^.

1. Not judging God.
2. No lateral thought.

1. Yes, who are we to judge God. We cannot judge God properly as we cannot grasp Him. But what we CAN grasp. We CAN judge. We can grasp that eternal torture for a minor crime is evil. We can grasp that annihilation is a lessor evil but still an evil.

When God gave us scripture stating that He is good and just, He used our vocabulary. His '''good''' is not good + evil. Otherwise Psalm 136:1 would read God is good with some evil tendencies. When David said He is good, He meant it.

This leads to is an absolute truth. Namely, that you believe in your mind that you serve an evil God. How can you serve a God that you believe would annihilate? The allied forces did NOT do that to the German POW's after WW2. The worst of the worst get a prison sentence in most countries. With a sentence shortened for good behavior. The Geneva convention forbids the torture / annihilation of prisoners. So in a nutshell, you believe God is on par with the Russians and Germans of WW2? God would not pass the Geneva convention?

2. God gave us our brains not to be used? God told us to love our enemies. But He can kill them?

We know God is currently and historically good. It can be proven to beyond a doubt. But, now on the future / unknown...why in the universe does anyone assume God is evil and ..dumb? Only an evil and dumb omniscient and omnipotent God would create people for destruction and eternal torture

These reasonings are not ours to decide. The bible is the final authority....period.

Taking a few verses literally is not the final authority...period. We need to look at where scripture points on all the unknowns. Scripture mentions many times that we were spiritually dead before being made alive in Christ. Sin never condemned all to Hades. Many with sin were in Abrahams bosom. So we can't ever just take ''wages of sin = death' literally...unless death = out of God's presence as both those in Hades and Abrahams bosom were.

 

[Chuckt]

Thank you for the compliment. But concerning annihilation, I can understand what you are saying but disagree with your analysis. I said "similar", not identical to a marriage proposal. We do not annihilate anyone. But Jesus used the word "destroy" in Math.10:28. What's the difference? Court a woman, propose to her, but destroy her if she says no? If you do not like the analogy because of the possibility of annihilation, then you could not possibly like it with the possiblity of destruction, for the same reason.

As well, I don't use the word annihilation. I use extermination, for what it's worth. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Seems that so many are fine with this but somehow balk at the thought of something final concerning death. It's all ok. if God sends a person to everlasting conscious torment but He becomes intolerable if He exterminates a person?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not the right avenue or argument to be using in determining the truth on this subject. We don't get to question or judge God. We simply must understand and accept what He has determined to do, no matter how we emotionally connect with it. I don't care to listen to an argument for forever conscious human torment if it is relying on a logical assessment, or some kind of reasoning that this is fair of God to do so. These reasonings are not ours to decide. The bible is the final authority....period.

Those who are saved enter into a relationship with God. Those who are not saved are destroyed, both body and soul. Will they ever come back in a resurrection (after the second resurrection and second death)? No. Their punishment is permanent. Another word for this is everlasting. Death and destruction is an everlasting punishment. It lasts forever. For the life of me, I marvel that some use this term to mean that a person is consciously experiencing being punished.They might not admit that this is simply the attaching of a pre determined conclusion onto a term (everlasting punishment), but that is precisely what they are doing in my humble opinion.

Growing up, my brother destroyed a lot of my toys but they didn't cease to exist.

And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;-Ephesians 2:11
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm

In Ephesians 2:11, we were all dead but God quickened us and made us alive. We didn't cease to exist from being dead.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Thank you for the compliment. But concerning annihilation, I can understand what you are saying but disagree with your analysis. I said "similar", not identical to a marriage proposal. We do not annihilate anyone. But Jesus used the word "destroy" in Math.10:28. What's the difference? Court a woman, propose to her, but destroy her if she says no? If you do not like the analogy because of the possibility of annihilation, then you could not possibly like it with the possiblity of destruction, for the same reason.

As well, I don't use the word annihilation. I use extermination, for what it's worth. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Seems that so many are fine with this but somehow balk at the thought of something final concerning death. It's all ok. if God sends a person to everlasting conscious torment but He becomes intolerable if He exterminates a person?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not the right avenue or argument to be using in determining the truth on this subject. We don't get to question or judge God. We simply must understand and accept what He has determined to do, no matter how we emotionally connect with it. I don't care to listen to an argument for forever conscious human torment if it is relying on a logical assessment, or some kind of reasoning that this is fair of God to do so. These reasonings are not ours to decide. The bible is the final authority....period.

Those who are saved enter into a relationship with God. Those who are not saved are destroyed, both body and soul. Will they ever come back in a resurrection (after the second resurrection and second death)? No. Their punishment is permanent. Another word for this is everlasting. Death and destruction is an everlasting punishment. It lasts forever. For the life of me, I marvel that some use this term to mean that a person is consciously experiencing being punished.They might not admit that this is simply the attaching of a pre determined conclusion onto a term (everlasting punishment), but that is precisely what they are doing in my humble opinion.

I think that one false way of viewing perdition has caused you to seek an alternative which, in the end, is equally flawed. I also think you make the mistake of eclectically picking among the many images given describing the fate of the unrepentant, and making literal what was meant to be metaphorical when it suits your purpose.

I think we both agree that God is not throwing people into a furnace and watching them cook like popcorn. Everything the Bible says, regarding the afterlife, is based on our choices, and even the torments of hell are based on what we chose to do in life. People live outside of God's presence and apart from his love, goodness, and grace. Left to their depraved selves, they are tormented by who they are, the choices they made, and the consequences of it. Scripture says that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust in this life, which is why even those who don't know God can love, be selfless, enjoy beauty, and experience contrition of their mistakes. Such will not be the case in hell. When God casts out of his presence those who decided in life to live apart from Him, the loss and emptiness will be so tremendous as to take one's breath away. In this sense, God is not punishing anyone, but giving to them what they chose for themselves, to continually exist in a wretched state. There is no cruelty here, no injustice, and all of it is predicated on the choices people make for themselves.

The nihilist viewpoint, (you can't change it by calling it something different) is deeply flawed in that it causes God to be double minded. God is described in the epistle of James as "in him there is no variance or shadow of turning". This has unavoidable and profound implications when it comes to the people God created, for if God willed for a person not to exist, that decision would have been made by not creating him in the first place. God cannot efface what he made in his own image because once created, that person has a right to exist eternally, a right that even God cannot violate. That may sound bold, but think about the children we bring into the world as parents who, upon coming into existence, continue to have the right to exist, a right that even those who sired them to begin with cannot trample. Our decision over their existence was made when we gave them life to begin with.

For God to rub out people He created in His image is simply unthinkable. It would impugn the integrity of God irreparably, for it would cause him to go back on his decision to create a life. To know the Almighty is to understand what is entirely outside of his character, what he will never, ever do. Nihilism is false because God is God.

 

[Chuckt]

I think we both agree that God is not throwing people into a furnace and watching them cook like popcorn. Everything the Bible says, regarding the afterlife, is based on our choices, and even the torments of hell are based on what we chose to do in life. People live outside of God's presence and apart from his love, goodness, and grace. Left to their depraved selves, they are tormented by who they are, the choices they made, and the consequences of it. Scripture says that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust in this life, which is why even those who don't know God can love, be selfless, enjoy beauty, and experience contrition of their mistakes. Such will not be the case in hell. When God casts out of his presence those who decided in life to live apart from Him, the loss and emptiness will be so tremendous as to take one's breath away. In this sense, God is not punishing anyone, but giving to them what they chose for themselves, to continually exist in a wretched state. There is no cruelty here, no injustice, and all of it is predicated on the choices people make for themselves.

God does send rain on the just and the unjust but in this life, He won't look on evil or else He will have to judge (Habukkuk 1:13).

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hab&c=1#comm/13

Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&t=KJV#20

I use to quote this verse in mercy until I read the word "till" and that implies that he will break and quench people who are smoking flaxes.

God gives people many chances here on earth until it is time for judgment and everyone will give an account.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Growing up, my brother destroyed a lot of my toys but they didn't cease to exist.

And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;-Ephesians 2:11
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm

In Ephesians 2:11, we were all dead but God quickened us and made us alive. We didn't cease to exist from being dead.

We've seem to establish that williemac is making literal passages of scripture that are meant to be metaphorical within it's context. Life outside of Christ is described as "death" because it paints an image of being cut off from the source of all life. Jesus repeatedly taught that He is the way to life, that in him is life, that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood have life. Before people are translated into the kingdom of heaven, they are described as "dead in trespass" but we know they aren't physically dead, and are certainly not annihilated. Unfortunately what we're seeing here promoted by the nihilist viewpoint is an abuse of scripture to substantiate what is error.

God does send rain on the just and the unjust but in this life, He won't look on evil or else He will have to judge (Habukkuk 1:13).

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hab&c=1#comm/13

Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&t=KJV#20

I use to quote this verse in mercy until I read the word "till" and that implies that he will break and quench people who are smoking flaxes.

God gives people many chances here on earth until it is time for judgment and everyone will give an account.

Read what I said again. I referenced this passage as applying only to this life, distinguished from what will happen in eternity where the unjust will not experience God's presence or grace (rain).

 

[HearGod]

Hell is eternal as we will see but Jesus said "I am alive forevermore" and they are the same words translated "forever and ever". If some versions translate God as everlasting then you have no choice but to translate hell as being everlasting because the different translations use the same words for both hell and God. Since the old heavens and the earth will pass away, the old location of hell will be passed away or thrown into the new location which is the lake of fire.

Jesus said,"I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore [eis tous aionas ton aionon] (Rev. 1:17-18, NASB).

Revelation 20:10: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [eis tous aionas ton aionon]."

The reality is that you can't translate the phrase about hell as being not eternal without translating the phrase about God as being not eternal.

Not one of these translations translates "aionion" as anything other than "eternal" or similar:

New International Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

New Living Translation
"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

English Standard Version
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

New American Standard Bible
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

King James Bible
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then He will also say to those on the left, Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!

International Standard Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

NET Bible
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then he will say also to those who are at his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed ones, into eternal fire, that which was prepared for The Devil and for his Angels.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Then the king will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels!

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then he shall also say unto those who shall be on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

King James 2000 Bible
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

American King James Version
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

American Standard Version
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Darby Bible Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

English Revised Version
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

Webster's Bible Translation
Then will he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Weymouth New Testament
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

World English Bible
Then he will say also to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Young's Literal Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

John 3:16A (KJV)
For God so loved the world (kosmos)...

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever (aion) and ever (aion)

Matthew 25:41A (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire...

2Corinthians 4:4A (KJV)
In whom the god of this world (aion)...

Without a doubt, 2Corinthians 4:4 should not be rendered as:

In whom the god of eternity (aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

or

In whom the god of forever (aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Therefore, aion/aionios might be age-abiding.

 

[Chuckt]

John 3:16A (KJV)
For God so loved the world (kosmos)...

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever (aion) and ever (aion)

Matthew 25:41A (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire...

2Corinthians 4:4A (KJV)
In whom the god of this world (aion)...

Without a doubt, 2Corinthians 4:4 should not be rendered as:

In whom the god of eternity (aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

or

In whom the god of forever (aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Therefore, aion/aionios might be age-abiding.

Good point.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world (aion) without end (aion). Amen.

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G165&t=KJV

1.for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

It is an unbroken age which would mean hell is eternal.

 

[MrKruback]

Although I believe hell is eternal. I am not positive everyone who goes there, will spend eternity there. However, could any soul come back from something like that? I do not have scripture to back up my idea's like the rest of you, but I believed Hell for one person is not the same hell for another. I think it is because I never liked the idea that all sin's had the same punishment. As if on earth, all crimes would be life in prison. I know the way I want things, and the way they are are two different things, but I can always hope.