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Featured Is Hell worse for Some?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by batheltler01, May 24, 2019.

  1. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    In other words you're saying that the Lord's prophets of old who were moved by the holy spirit, the same spirit which speaks to us today gave them a completely different interpretation of the matter. Sorry but I'm not seeing that.
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I see what you're up to.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  3. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    No it is not separation from God, the Scriptures are quite clear on this matter, the wages of sin is death (the opposite of life, i.e. the cessation of life), the soul that sins it shall die, period.

    To believe that the soul somehow continues to live on is to fall prey to the lie first put forth by the Adversary who said to Eve, 'Thou shall surly not die."

    Who then shall we believe on this matter the Lord (as revealed in his word) or the Adversary?

    As for myself I think I'll take the Lord's word on this matter over that of the Adversary and those who have been decieved by his lie.
     
  4. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    That's strange because as I read the Scriptures they say that you are wrong.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Considering that it might be a parable, I would like to take a closer look at it. In any true parable, the elements of the parable represent something. So, let us see what the parable says:

    Luk 16:19, There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    Luk 16:20, And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    Luk 16:21, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Luk 16:22, And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    Luk 16:23, And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Luk 16:24, And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    Luk 16:25, But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    Luk 16:26, And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    Luk 16:27, Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    Luk 16:28, For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    Luk 16:29, Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    Luk 16:30, And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    Luk 16:31, And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


    Now in the above scripture, what is represented by the things emphasized above in larger letters? What is the interpretation?

    Note that you can say that it is a parable all you want; but parables have an interpretation; and therefore if you do not have an interpretation you cannot rightly say that it is a parable. What is represented by this thing in the parable: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    I'm certain that you will want to come up with an interpretation that will minimize the concept of hell and eternal torments; but one thing is clear: being tormented in this flame has a parabolic meaning if this is even only a parable, and I would like to know what you think that meaning is.

    So you're saying that Jesus was wrong in what He said in Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46. If you combine these passages (and they ought to be combined for they are of the same subject), you cannot escape the reality of everlasting punishment that amounts to wailing and gnashing of teeth (conscious eternal torments).

    Here:

    Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    I am of the opinion that what is written later often is more important than what was written before; because the holy scriptures are a progressive revelation.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Annihilation is not in the Bible.
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    And that would be New World translation?
     
  8. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    In a parable the things said are not the things meant. For example in the Parable of the Wheat and the tares when the Lord spoke of “wheat” he was not talking about actual wheat nor was he talking about actual “tares” (weeds). The “reapers” were not actual reapers working an actual wheat field nor were the tares who were bundled together actually burned with fire. The Lord explains all this in Matt 13:36-43. The wheat are the sons of the kingdom, the tares the sons of the wicked one, the reapers angels (messengers) and the fire in which the tares are to be burned is the great time of trouble in which this age ends. Fire is synonymous with trouble, destruction, torment, persecution, judgement.

    Who said we did not have an interpretation of this parable? It can be found right here, The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Fundamentalists like to use this verse to prove hellfire, but this is a parable showing the condition of the Jew down through the Gospel Age. “Fireindicates persecution, and in their extreme experiences the Jews have longed for a figurative drop of water to cool their tongues. They have, figuratively speaking been in the valley of dry bones under the heat and scorching of the sun all throughout the entire Gospel age.

    No I’m saying your interpretation of these texts is colored by your preconceived ideas concerning a literal hell of fire and brimstone. We have attempted to address some of these texts mentioned in our blog post entitled, “A Great Blasphemy

    I am of the opinion that God’s word is one complete harmonious whole, and in no way contradicts itself, therefore we are left with two possible conclusions either God’s word is wrong or we have misunderstood and misinterpreted the texts (having failed to “rightly divide the word of truth2 Tim. 2:15 in this case failing to distinguish between what is a figurative or parabolic statement and what is a literal statement) this and not fully considering all that the Lord has to say on the matter, but choosing rather to rely only on those texts which we believe support out conclusions, our theories.
     
  9. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Everlasting existence (life) in eternal torment is not in the Bible, it is a man-made doctrine contrived by the professing church in order to drive men to Christ through fear.

    As our Lord so stated, “He that hath the Son hath life, he that hath not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God (the curse, the sentence of death) abides on him.” (1 John 5:12)
     
  10. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    I don't use the New World translation, I used the NKJV (along with several other Bibles for cross reference).
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:12 New International Version (NIV)
    12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Death means separation from God, not annihilation.

    Matthew 25:41 New International Version (NIV)
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The Bible speaks of eternal life and death.

    If one is annihilated they cannot suffer from eternal death or punishment. They simply don't exist to experience anything.
     
  13. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Yes....especially Dante’s personal enemies
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    And the Bible teaches those in the lake will have eternal worms feasting upon them.

    If you don't exist how can that be true?
     
  15. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Bodies are subject to Physical Death.
    All Bodies are currently Spiritually DEAD.

    To Disbelieve Souls Continue to Live ON After Physical Death, IS TO DENY Jesus' Own Doctrine.

    Souls Separated from God are Spiritually Dead.

    Souls IN HELL, spiritually Separated from God SHALL BE DESTROYED.

    Obviously the Lord's OWN Doctrine.

    Is that So?

    Luke 16
    [19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    Do explain HOW a DEAD and BURIED MAN, IS IN HELL AND SPEAKING TO ABRAHAM...


    I'll Wait.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The devil would minimize the warning in people's minds so that fewer people would heed it.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No, for the rich man is tormented in the flame.

    Persecution is not something that would bring torments but rather a blessing (Matthew 5:10-12 (kjv)); as evidenced by the principle in Ecclesiastes 8:5a (kjv).

    Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


    Ecc 8:5, Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.

    It is mentioned in the "parable" that the torments mentioned take place in hell.

    What is the parabolic meaning of hell?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Since Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50 are both part of Jesus' explanation of parables that He has just given, it is impossible that He would have been making them as parabolic statements.

    THE PARABLE:
    Mat 13:24, Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    Mat 13:25, But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    Mat 13:26, But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    Mat 13:27, So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    Mat 13:28, He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    Mat 13:29, But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    Mat 13:30, Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


    THE EXPLANATION:
    Mat 13:36, Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    Mat 13:37, He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

    Mat 13:38, The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    Mat 13:39, The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40, As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 13:43, Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Not much of a difference there between the plain meaning of the parable and the explanation Jesus gave to say what the parable means. "Wheat" and "tares" may represent something other than vegetation; but in both the parable and in the explanation fire means fire.

    THE PARABLE:
    Mat 13:47, Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    Mat 13:48, Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


    THE EXPLANATION:
    Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  19. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    This is merely your opinion and is not supported by the Scriptures. As for the text cited this actually contradicts your assumption. Fire is not a preserving element it is a consuming element. Whatever is thrown in it is utterly consumed until it exist no more. Have you ever heard of a preserving fire? I think not.
     
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