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Featured Is Hell worse for Some?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by batheltler01, May 24, 2019.

  1. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    This is a false, one cannot be spiritually dead until first they were made spiritually alive, and the only ones presently who are alive spiritually are those begotten of God's spirit.

    Adam was created a natural man no spark of spirituality was infused in him nor in any of his posterity save those believers following Pentecost who were begotten of the Lord's spirit.

    This too is false. It is evident you have fallen for the Adversaries lie. If you truly believe that there is a specific doctrine taught by the Lord which teaches life continues on after death please provide Chapter and verse.

    As for the texts you quote in Luke that is a parable. In a parable the words said are not the words meant, to take it as a literal statement is to involve all manner of absurdities.

    See the explanation of this parable here, The Rich Man and Lazarus
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    atthew 3:11 New International Version (NIV)
    11 “I baptize you witha]">[a] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
     
  3. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    No, it is NOT FALSE.
    And No, Once Spiritually ALIVE, There is No Death.

    Angels were created Spiritually ALIVE.
    Their spirit IS NOT Subject to Death!

    Nor is a mans spirit Subject to Death, Once it is MADE ALIVE!

    A mans "natural" spirit, is simply his TRUTH in his Heart.

    A mans "natural" self, body, IS Subject to Death.

    A mans "natural" self was PROCREATED from a mans "natural" seed.

    The FIRST MAN, was created GOOD...NOT Spiritual....but GOOD.

    The FIRAT MAN, had the OPPORTUNITY to BECOME "Spiritual".....WHEN, that First man, ADAM, was PUT in the Garden, AND TOLD He could EAT from the TREE OF LIFE!!

    Oops...He didn't eat from THAT TREE!

    Oops...He Ate from a TREE called Good "AND" Evil.

    Oops...From henceforth Adams Natural OFFSPRING from a mans NATURAL (Sperm) SEED, would thereafter, BE IN ADAMS LIKENESS....ie A natural man, Subject to the DEATH of His Natural Body.

    And IFY, that INCLUDES all of mankind!!

    God has OFFERED a WAY, for mankind TO, remain Alive in His Natural Blood Life of His Body, "AND" RECEIVE, a:
    Rebirth of his SPIRIT.
    "AND" Receive, a:
    Restoration of his SOUL.
    "AND" His BODY be Spiritually ACCOUNTED "DEAD" IN Christ.

    A man WHO chooses to NOT ACCEPT Gods Offering....IS Simply "spiritually" DEAD to God.

    God IS Spirit.
    ANY man having a RELATIONSHIP WiTH God, IS A SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP.

    A man IS NOT "naturally" BORN having a Spiritual Relationship WITH God.

    A man IS EITHER Accepting of Gods OFFERING, and HAS a Quickened BORN AGAIN SPIRIT....and ALIVE IN Christ.

    OR
    A man IS Not Accepting of Gods OFFERING, and IS Spiritually DEAD TO God.

    So, No, you are IN ERROR.
    Spirits do not Die.
    Human spirits become BORN AGAIN,
    (They do NOT DIE and then become born again).

    You are confused.
    It is the BODY that is Subject to DEATH.
    It is the BODY that MUST DIE before IT CAN BECOME Spiritually ALIVE.

    1 Cor 15
    [35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    [36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    Uh huh. Never said he was created "SPIRITUAL".

    So why are YOU attempting to make an argument out of something I never said?

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  4. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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  5. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Harvest 1874

    Until you learn to recognize Scriptures have TWO DIFFERENT MEANINGS....

    1) Written Scriptures IS Written KNOWLEDGE.

    Written KNOWLEDGE for a natural man from a Spiritual God.

    2) Gods KNOWLEDGE HAS Gods Spiritual Understanding.

    3) Gods KNOWLEDGE "ALSO" has Mankinds Natural Understanding.

    4) You leaning on Mankinds Natural Understanding IS OF NO INTEREST TO ME.

    5) Men Obtaining Gods Understanding of His OWN Word IS of Gods Desire for men to Obtain!

    Parables ARE the MANNER in which Jesus Delivered HIS DOCTRINE to men...
    Full well KNOWING, SOME men, (such as yourself) WOULD DENY what Jesus was Speaking was Absolute Truth, and Favor instead to Believe, a mans Natural understanding of a parable.

    If you believed Christ Jesus IS ALL KNOWING, as His disciples Believed, You would KNOW, He had NO Ability to SPeAK ANYTHING, that was NOT TRUE.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  6. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Its obvious you have little understanding of the true intent of this statement. It in no way supports your false doctrine.

    This passage is simply saying that Christ will baptize the people of Israel (the "remnant", Israelite's indeed) with the holy Spirit and (the rest of that nation with) fire (with trouble, with the destruction which befell that nation 40 years later). As a nation, the Jews had experienced great blessings and privileges, and these being misused brought great darkness and ultimately a terrible national judgment.

    "For this is the time of punishment (the days of vengeance) in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people." (Luke 21:22, 23 NIV)

    "Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7)

    "Wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Thess 2:16)

    This wrath burned (metaphorically speaking) fiercely against them in the great time of trouble which led to the collapse of their national polity in AD 69-70. Thus they were baptized in fire (trouble).
     
  7. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    There is also a scripture which states:

    "And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie (a false teaching or doctrine, specifically Satan's lie to Eve), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth (when spoken) but had pleasure in unrighteousness (in errors in falsehoods)." 2 Thess 2:11, 12

    It evident that you have fallen for this deception, I would counsel you to pray to the Lord that he might anoint your eyes with eye salve that you might see out of this darkness in which you have fallen. (Rev 3:18)
     
  8. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I am the one saying the Lord Jesus is the Truth and only speaks the truth;
    And you are the one saying what the Lord Jesus said is NOT TRUE....
    And you are the one saying "I fell for deception"?
    I doubt I am alone in noticing, you are the one in danger of being the recipient of a strong delusion.

    It's pretty lame for you to accuse me of WHAT you do.
    Don't be afraid to stand for what you believe and share with the Forum;
    Highlight the parts of Jesus' teaching OF HIS DOCTRINE, "YOU" claim are NOT Factual Truths.

    Luke 16
    [19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    [26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    [27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    [28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  9. Jon Mathews

    Jon Mathews Active Member

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    Not according to Jesus. The Rich man was quite aware of his torment and thirst while he was in hell.
    Luke 16:19-31
     
  10. illini1959

    illini1959 Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit didn't indwell believers until after Christ's resurrection, if that's what you mean.

    Separation from God -

    2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

    How can someone who doesn't exist after this life have no rest, suffer a punishment of eternal fire, and why would they care if they went to hell, to the unquenchable fire?

    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

    Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

    Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

    If they aren't alive, who cares?

    How can you definitively say it's a parable? Jesus did teach using many parables, but they were spiritual truths using an earthly example. Even IF it were a parable, clearly He is teaching hell is a real place and the people in it are alive and aware of their surroundings.

    Are you saying there's no life after death as far as hell goes, or do you not believe in eternal life with Christ as well?

    Just wondering. Thank you ~
     
  11. Wafer

    Wafer Active Member

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    You can definitively say you have a figure of speech when you see a statement that is impossible. The old testament says repeatedly that there is no awareness in the grave, no more a part in anything under the sun, and so on. So Jesus's story was impossible, therefore a figure of speech.

    A PARABLE is an extended figure of speech; a story based on a simile, metaphor, or hypocatastasis. If the story is possible, it is a MYTH. If the story is impossible, it is a FABLE. If a fable includes an explanation of the meaning, it is an ALLEGORY. These things were all studied and catalogued by the ancient Greek philosophers, so there is no guessing about them.

    More: Figures of speech in the bible
     
  12. Dan57

    Dan57 Active Member

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    I suspect that the temperature in the Lake of Fire is the same for everyone thrown into it.. However, I do believe heaven will be better for some.
     
  13. illini1959

    illini1959 Active Member

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    I know what a figure of speech is, and there are plenty in scripture.

    But, scripture is also full of things that are impossible - does that mean none of them are literally true?

    Mt 9:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Are you saying all the verses in the bible pertaining to hell or any afterlife are not true?

    And what 'things' were studied, etc., by Greek philosophers -

    Just so I understand....
     
  14. Wafer

    Wafer Active Member

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    You can go to any online bible and search words to see what the bible actually says. What you have been told the bible says is not reliable. What you guess when you don't understand something is not reliable. What you have heard on radio and tv is not reliable. Even an argument you get into with some stranger on the internet is not reliable. You have to verify everything in your own bible, and often you need to consult bible references (NOT commentaries) to get full understanding.

    As for your question, look up those verses and we can analyze them one at a time.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  15. illini1959

    illini1959 Active Member

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    Actually, I search words to see what they actually mean every day and have posted such here on these boards (I'm new so you won't find that many yet, but it's what I do on every forum/board I post on).

    How could you possibly know what I've been told the bible says? I don't 'guess' and I don't get my theology from tv...

    The one thing you got right in your post is that arguments/discussions with strangers on the internet aren't reliable.

    God's word is reliable, the Holy Spirit is reliable. Through Christ I have access to both, so I'm good.

    Since I don't know you, maybe you could share a bit about your faith....?

    Thank you ~
     
  16. Wafer

    Wafer Active Member

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    I do not care to get personal at this time.

    "Are you saying all the verses in the bible pertaining to hell or any afterlife are not true? "

    That is a loaded question and I decline to give you ammunition to use against me.
     
  17. illini1959

    illini1959 Active Member

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    I'm sorry you consider an honest question 'loaded'.

    I'm also sorry you appear to be ashamed to share your faith.

    Given those 2 things, I have to wonder why you're posting. Thanks, anyway.
     
  18. Mal'ak

    Mal'ak Member

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    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


    The early Catholic Church came up with the eight levels of hell, you probably know it from the book "dante's inferno" if you are not Catholic. Which uses flesh punishments for what the Church declared minor to major sins, example, if you went to Hell for gluttony you would eat all day in Hell but always feel as though you are starving. This is fake traditions of man in an era when the early Catholic church took the teaching of Jesus Christ and mixed it in with their suppositions and old gods. If you know the history of religions/faiths in the world, at one time there was only the Catholic Church (because they killed every Christian teaching non-Catholic doctrine), all modern religions/faiths have their roots from the Catholic Church and so adopted lots of their dogma.

    As James says above, if you commit any sin at all, you are guilty of all the law. If you murder or you envy your neighbor you are guilty of the law, and a sinner, the only punishment for any sin is death (which is why we need Jesus' sacrifice, his death became our death).

    Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

    1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    There has been at least one reply to this thread using another early Catholic belief, that when you die you sleep until Jesus returns and raises the dead. Sadly for those early Catholics and those using their beliefs now are missing, is that the book of Revelations is a spiritual book and if you take everything literal in flesh understanding then giant scorpions will be here eating you, which is as much nonsense as us staying dead until judgment day.

    There was some in Paul's day that believed we slept until judgment day as well in the early Church of the Corinthians, and Paul wrote them a letter in 1 Corinthians that if they believe the dead to not rise then how did Jesus rise? Part of the fault of the belief is that Christians still do not believe in spiritual bodies, that our flesh bodies will be raised and animated by the Holy Spirit like vampires. Which is not true, there is a flesh body and inside your flesh body is your soul along with spirit; long study short soul=spiritual body, spirit = mind/thoughts/personality. So the example in Genesis when Rachel died delivering Benjamin, the Word tells us "her soul was in departing", meaning when you die your soul leaves your body and return to God.

    Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    There was one person using Lazarus and the rich man story, this was not Heaven and Hell, for those that studied Hell in the Old Testament know that every good person that died before Jesus died on the cross went to Hell to a place called "Abraham's Bosom". As David explained in Psalm that he could not enter Heaven when he died because as a sinner he would corrupt Heaven, so he went to Hell but would not be left there. In Acts they quote David and tell us he was prophesying the coming of Jesus to die for our sins, then in 1 Peter 3 we learn why David would not be left in Hell. When Jesus died and was in the spirit during the three days he did not go to Heaven, he went to Hell and preached to those there including David then bringing everyone to Heaven that repented.

    Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    We are not told what Hell is like, but that it is a prison. Even though Abraham's bosom is not Heaven, I think it is the best scripture to explain Hell. There is a "great gulf" between those in Heaven and Hell which none can "pass", also those people in Hell can perhaps see those in Heaven who are being "comforted" by being in the presence of the Father and Jesus, while those in Hell know they are out of God's grace and separated from him so they are "tormented" by that realization which is the spiritual meaning of "burning in fire". Like jail for humans scripture shows your soul in Hell will be locked up separated from Heaven and the torment will be in your mind as you can do nothing but think; "will I be here forever?", "is there a worse fate for me coming?", etc.
     
  19. Wafer

    Wafer Active Member

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    I am not ashamed to share my faith, I am ashamed of my fellow Christians. The bible says several times we should love one another but most people who claim to be Christians are doctrine cops who have not learned correct doctrines. The rest think that commandment means I have a responsibility to act loved.
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The fire spoken of is everlasting fire; and it is spoken of it that it shall never be quenched.
     
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