Is it biblical for Jesus' followers to approve of the military practice?

[Guestman]

It's not that easy to put the historical Revisionist Pacifist swing to early Christians that some here would lead us to believe.

Marinus of Caesarea, Julius the Veteran of the 2nd century are prime examples of early Christians serving in the military. Marinus was a centurion, and upon promotion was required to do a pagan sacrifice. He refused but kept The Faith instead and was executed.

Emperor Diocletian (285 B.C.) tried to purge Christians from the military but did not succeed. Some scholars believe that Constantine's conversion to Christianity was helped because of these Christian Romans, even those that were of the imperial household!

2 Cor.10 by Apostle Paul is not about any idea of not serving in the military. It instead is Apostle Paul proclaiming that The Gospel Itself does the conquering, and not by man's weapons of war. He is alluding to conquering by The Spirit, a completely different subject than the Pacifist's ideas of not serving in the military.

Jesus gave an illustration at Matthew 13 whereby the one true religion that he established and went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E. would apostasize or "fall away" from his teachings, corrupting them.(Matt 13:24-30, 36-43) Following the death of the apostles, with John dying in about 100 C.E., the "antichrists" began to flourish, those who discounted Jesus words or twisted them.

John wrote in about 98 C.E.: "Young children, it is the last hour (before the apostasy begins to blossom fully), and, just as you have heard that antichrists is coming (those who rejected or distorted Jesus and his words), even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour (before these fully take over the congregation like a disease). They went out from us (ones from within the Christian congregation), but they were not of our sort (these set their own perimeters of "right and wrong", like Adam and Eve, Gen 3:6); for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us (instead of pushing ahead and discarding Jesus words at Matt 5:43-48 concerning godly love and military service). But they went out that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort."(1 John 2:18, 19)

These ones could not stand the thought of adhering to Jesus words, and hence set out on their own, apart from the Christian congregation, with the last surviving apostle John counseling true Christians that "antichrists" (meaning literally " against (or instead of) Christ") would be multiplying and argue against Jesus words to show genuine love, that military service does not violate God's law of love.

Only about some 75 years after the apostle John's death, it is noted that so-called "Christians" were now joining the military. Apostasy was making headway and was like a garden that is eventually overtaken by "weeds". These "weeds" that Jesus said that Satan had "oversown" especially after the death of the apostles were counterfeit Christians (Matt 13:25), false Christians, "wolves in sheep's clothing" (Matt 7:15) that now began to "rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:30)

They allowed the thinking of the "world", the spirit of independence to dominate them and pushed this ideology (Eph 2:2), whereby joining the military was now "right" in their eyes, to fight for one's nation rather than fight for the Christ and his teachings. Jesus said that the "weeds" would be allowed to grow down till the "harvest" with the "wheat" (genuine Christians), our time period.(Matt 13:29, 30)

However, Jesus said that during the time of the "harvest" that matters would be set straight. The "weeds" or imitation Christians, those who argue for military service among a whole host of "wrong" things, would be separated from among the "wheat", "sons of the kingdom", and be burned up. Now the the "weeds" are being exposed for who they are and the "wheat" are ' shining as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.'(Matt 13:43)

At Revelation 6, after the 5th seal was opened, the apostle John said that he "saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have." These ones wondered when God will bring justice in their behalf, but God said for them "to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."(Rev 6:9-11)

These would not violate Jehovah's law on love, refusing to join the military as well as in Caesar's time to offer a pinch of incense to him as the emperor, and there received the wrath of the state, many being killed. These would not trust in an "arm of flesh", the military might of nations such as Rome.(Jer 17:5) Rather these followed in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) to make "the name of Jehovah....a stronghold", whereby "into it the righteous run and is given protection."(Prov 18:10) When "being reviled, (Jesus) did not go reviling in return".(1 Pet 2:23)

N. Platt and M.J. Drummond wrote: "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans....Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers."(Our World Though the Ages, 1961, pg 125) And R and W. M.West wrote that "the first Christians (later so-called Christians did not agree, joining the military) thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers."(The New World's Foundation in the Old, 1929, pg 131)

 

[meshak]

thank you guestman,

I greatly appreciate your contribution to this thread.

blessings.

 

[HammerStone]

Again you are dismissing Jesus and His disciples' pacifism examples.

No, I'm merely highlighting your idolization of pacifism, as you have now further reinforced because you resort to the ole' fashioned straw man's argument. Because I bring out episodes of violence which directly conflict with your opinion of things, I am "dismissing" all other examples which is an absurd and terrible argument to make.

Yes, He did. However, Jesus' used all godly practice, not all OT practices are of God. Jesus corrected many of them.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2
Then the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Either God didn't say the above so we turn the gospel into a buffet, or we work to reconcile commands like this with what Jesus said:

Jesus speaking:

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Killing and driving out people with whip is not the same, dear. It is
just absurd comparison that pro-military people uses all time.

Well then, dear, please make up your mind whether we're talking about "violent acts" - which was the question you asked - or explicitly killing. I can provide examples of the latter rather easily, but you certainly asked for the former. If God is a pacifist in how you mean the define the word, then we better throw out passages like Matthew 7:19 because they imply death.

Your argument is not very convincing outside of those with already itching ears.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not very pacifist of God - shall we throw that one out too?

 

[veteran]

Jesus gave an illustration at Matthew 13 whereby the one true religion that he established and went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E. would apostasize or "fall away" from his teachings, corrupting them.(Matt 13:24-30, 36-43) Following the death of the apostles, with John dying in about 100 C.E., the "antichrists" began to flourish, those who discounted Jesus words or twisted them.

John wrote in about 98 C.E.: "Young children, it is the last hour (before the apostasy begins to blossom fully), and, just as you have heard that antichrists is coming (those who rejected or distorted Jesus and his words), even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour (before these fully take over the congregation like a disease). They went out from us (ones from within the Christian congregation), but they were not of our sort (these set their own perimeters of "right and wrong", like Adam and Eve, Gen 3:6); for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us (instead of pushing ahead and discarding Jesus words at Matt 5:43-48 concerning godly love and military service). But they went out that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort."(1 John 2:18, 19)

These ones could not stand the thought of adhering to Jesus words, and hence set out on their own, apart from the Christian congregation, with the last surviving apostle John counseling true Christians that "antichrists" (meaning literally " against (or instead of) Christ") would be multiplying and argue against Jesus words to show genuine love, that military service does not violate God's law of love.

Only about some 75 years after the apostle John's death, it is noted that so-called "Christians" were now joining the military. Apostasy was making headway and was like a garden that is eventually overtaken by "weeds". These "weeds" that Jesus said that Satan had "oversown" especially after the death of the apostles were counterfeit Christians (Matt 13:25), false Christians, "wolves in sheep's clothing" (Matt 7:15) that now began to "rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:30)

They allowed the thinking of the "world", the spirit of independence to dominate them and pushed this ideology (Eph 2:2), whereby joining the military was now "right" in their eyes, to fight for one's nation rather than fight for the Christ and his teachings. Jesus said that the "weeds" would be allowed to grow down till the "harvest" with the "wheat" (genuine Christians), our time period.(Matt 13:29, 30)

However, Jesus said that during the time of the "harvest" that matters would be set straight. The "weeds" or imitation Christians, those who argue for military service among a whole host of "wrong" things, would be separated from among the "wheat", "sons of the kingdom", and be burned up. Now the the "weeds" are being exposed for who they are and the "wheat" are ' shining as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.'(Matt 13:43)

At Revelation 6, after the 5th seal was opened, the apostle John said that he "saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have." These ones wondered when God will bring justice in their behalf, but God said for them "to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."(Rev 6:9-11)

These would not violate Jehovah's law on love, refusing to join the military as well as in Caesar's time to offer a pinch of incense to him as the emperor, and there received the wrath of the state, many being killed. These would not trust in an "arm of flesh", the military might of nations such as Rome.(Jer 17:5) Rather these followed in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) to make "the name of Jehovah....a stronghold", whereby "into it the righteous run and is given protection."(Prov 18:10) When "being reviled, (Jesus) did not go reviling in return".(1 Pet 2:23)

N. Platt and M.J. Drummond wrote: "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans....Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers."(Our World Though the Ages, 1961, pg 125) And R and W. M.West wrote that "the first Christians (later so-called Christians did not agree, joining the military) thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers."(The New World's Foundation in the Old, 1929, pg 131)

Just as there are Christian socialists that don't believe in serving in the military today, so it was the same with some in the early Church, but that is not representative of all the early Church as I have already shown with Christian Roman soldiers. That's why you cannot try to use a couple of opinion quotes to create Revisionist history against the fact of early Christians serving in the militaries of Rome, and those like Diocletian trying to purge Christians out of the military back then. Also, it has been God's Will that the nations under The Gospel of Jesus Christ not perish, and in 700 A.D. with the Muslim invasions of the west that was one of the greatest dangers to the Christian nations in its history; those Christians defended theirselves, and God's people did not perish.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

There will be those who call themselves brother's yet they are like Judas who bring in the outsiders and stand with them against those who truly adhere to the Word of God for they are not really following Christ they are counterfeit Christian's and they fight not with a spiritual sWord in their mouth but with a carnal sword like Cain who killed his good brother Abel, for their earthly country that is mixed with believer's and unbeliever's who have strayed away from Christ and that kill for covetous sake. They do not look to God for protection and abide in the peace of Christ, they are using their store bought swords that they can see, and they refused to give offerings to the man of God who is to help equip them with their spiritual sWord. The thought little of that sWord and they chose to spend their treasures for their carnal lusts instead of salvation of their soul to satisfy their flesh body like ESAU.
Gal 6:6-9
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
KJV
Do not fear what man can do to you, Fear the One who can destroy the body and the soul.
All government is ordained of God, yet that does not mean that they are all nice people not that they even believe in God. It just mean's that they are there for God's purposes to use due to a WILLING heart to afflict pain, to bring carnal judgment upon our defiant flesh when we reject the Truth of His Word to live by. As God told Moses, tell Pharaoh my Words, and if he does not listen to them, then show him the consequences by the leprosy that comes to punish the flesh.

2 Tim 2:3-4
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
KJV
Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
KJV
Matt 26:52
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
KJV
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
KJV

 

[meshak]

There will be those who call themselves brother's yet they are like Judas who bring in the outsiders and stand with them against those who truly adhere to the Word of God for they are not really following Christ they are counterfeit Christian's and they fight not with a spiritual sWord in their mouth but with a carnal sword like Cain who killed his good brother Abel, for their earthly country that is mixed with believer's and unbeliever's who have strayed away from Christ and that kill for covetous sake. They do not look to God for protection and abide in the peace of Christ, they are using their store bought swords that they can see, and they refused to give offerings to the man of God who is to help equip them with their spiritual sWord. The thought little of that sWord and they chose to spend their treasures for their carnal lusts instead of salvation of their soul to satisfy their flesh body like ESAU.
Gal 6:6-9
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
KJV
Do not fear what man can do to you, Fear the One who can destroy the body and the soul.
All government is ordained of God, yet that does not mean that they are all nice people not that they even believe in God. It just mean's that they are there for God's purposes to use due to a WILLING heart to afflict pain, to bring carnal judgment upon our defiant flesh when we reject the Truth of His Word to live by. As God told Moses, tell Pharaoh my Words, and if he does not listen to them, then show him the consequences by the leprosy that comes to punish the flesh.

2 Tim 2:3-4
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
KJV
Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
KJV
Matt 26:52
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
KJV
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
KJV

well said, faithfulone

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Thank you Meshak... all glory unto God!

 

[tarmack09]

That's actually the main problem I have with the holy book. There is too much waring and battling not enough love making!

 

[meshak]

No, I'm merely highlighting your idolization of pacifism, as you have now further reinforced because you resort to the ole' fashioned straw man's argument. Because I bring out episodes of violence which directly conflict with your opinion of things, I am "dismissing" all other examples which is an absurd and terrible argument to make.


Deuteronomy 7:1-2
Then the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Either God didn't say the above so we turn the gospel into a buffet, or we work to reconcile commands like this with what Jesus said:

Jesus speaking:

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


Well then, dear, please make up your mind whether we're talking about "violent acts" - which was the question you asked - or explicitly killing. I can provide examples of the latter rather easily, but you certainly asked for the former. If God is a pacifist in how you mean the define the word, then we better throw out passages like Matthew 7:19 because they imply death.

Your argument is not very convincing outside of those with already itching ears.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not very pacifist of God - shall we throw that one out too?

Denver,

You seem to be satisfied preconceived notion of traditional corrupt mainstream faith. His servants loyalty should belong to Jesus, not your organization, friend.

I urge you to read 4 gospels without preconceived notion. Jesus teaches us what it takes to be His servant.

It seems that your Lord is your organization and their doctrines. Jesus' followers Lord is Jesus.

I have been explaining to you simply but you are not willing to listen. You are only 25 years old. Please dont satisfy with conventional faith. Let Jesus teach you instead of your church doctrines.

blessings.

 

[HammerStone]

Attack my age, that's the way to win an argument!

Until you actually respond to my points with a coherent response, you're currently unable to show what you advocate. It's amazing, yet not amazing that you continue to ignore anything that presents a challenge and move right along to the next point of attack.

Until then, let's drop the gibberish about organizations and other nonsense. Either debate the points or move along.

 

[KingJ]

Attack my age, that's the way to win an argument!

Until you actually respond to my points with a coherent response, you're currently unable to show what you advocate. It's amazing, yet not amazing that you continue to ignore anything that presents a challenge and move right along to the next point of attack.

Until then, let's drop the gibberish about organizations and other nonsense. Either debate the points or move along.

I agree, having read the posts here it is extremely annoying to see how scripture opposing the OP is just dismissed / ignored.

Meshak, you have to take all sripture together before you form an opinion! God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. God has always and will always support war for self defence.

I propose a different approach....think of what Paul says, 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life? Do you not know that you must protect your family? Do you not know that you must use the brain God gave you to judge and discern the need for self-defence?

Saying that we must not fight in self-defence is on par with saying we must sit and watch as our wife is raped.

God ONLY helped the Kurds being gassed by Sadam when US and Uk tanks rolled into Iraq. Fact! Prayer is good, but if we have the capacity to do something we know is right, we must do it, otherwise we have the blood of innocents on our hands!

 

[Guestman]

Jesus instructed his disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36) and Peter lopped off an ear when his rabbi was threatened (John 18:10). These are hardly the actions of a total pacifist, even ignoring God's commands in the OT.

I do not buy into constant and eternal wars, but neither do I buy into the entire total pacifism. War and violence should be an absolute last resort for any Christian, active only when there are no other options.

So many that call themselves Christian fail to understand why Jesus gave the command to his disciples to ' buy a sword ', not reading the next verses, in which Jesus said: "For I tell you that this which is written (written where ? at Isaiah 53:12) must be accomplished in me, namely, ' And he (Jesus) was reckoned with the lawless ones.' For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment." Some disciples then says to Jesus: "Lord, look ! here are two swords" in which Jesus says that "It is enough".(Luke 22:36-38)

How many have read Matthew 5, whereby Jesus said that "truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter (Greek iota [8th letter in Greek alphabet], meaning "figuratively a very small part of anything") or one particle of a letter (Greek keraia, meaning "the apex of a Hebrew letter") to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place " ? (Matt 5:18) Hence, for every detail of prophecy concerning him to take place, Jesus required that swords be brought with them, not for the purpose of fighting.

Jesus perfect example is for genuine Christians to follow, for when "being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one (Jehovah God) who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:22) Thus, Jesus suffered an ignominious death. Did not Jesus tell Peter, after cutting off the high priest slave's ear to "return your sword to its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."(Matt 26:52) Why ? Because the teachings of Jesus are not compatible with violence.

Hence, he further said: "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels ? "(Matt 26:53) Jesus could have appealed to Jehovah God for some 72,000 angels but did not. Why ? Not because of pacifism but because he taught how to show genuine love that his Father had taught him. Furthermore, Jesus understood Psalms 11:5, that says: "Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul cetainly hates." Righteous ones will hate violence, whereas "wicked ones" will see it as the means to settle disputes.

 

[HammerStone]

Did not Jesus tell Peter, after cutting off the high priest slave's ear to "return your sword to its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."(Matt 26:52) Why ? Because the teachings of Jesus are not compatible with violence.

So I see this as implicit denial that Peter was told to put down the sword because the resulting melee would have changed/influenced Jesus being on the cross? Am I correct in this assessment? Let's be honest.

The problem I am having with your reading is that you're reading into this passage (Matthew 26:52) that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword not because the Son of Man is about to die on the cross, but solely for the sake of Pacifism. Thus, the focus is shifted from the Savior of mankind (and what he is about to do on the cross) to essentially a political position. You guys are reading that it's more important to take a pacifist line over what Jesus did to save us all on the cross, and I cannot assent to that proposition.

I reject wholeheartedly the notion that I or anyone else here is pro-violence because we see self defense as an option in the Bible for family and friends at the most basic level. The polarization of this issue is absurd.

 

[meshak]

I agree, having read the posts here it is extremely annoying to see how scripture opposing the OP is just dismissed / ignored.

Meshak, you have to take all sripture together before you form an opinion! God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. God has always and will always support war for self defence.

I propose a different approach....think of what Paul says, 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life? Do you not know that you must protect your family? Do you not know that you must use the brain God gave you to judge and discern the need for self-defence?

Saying that we must not fight in self-defence is on par with saying we must sit and watch as our wife is raped.

God ONLY helped the Kurds being gassed by Sadam when US and Uk tanks rolled into Iraq. Fact! Prayer is good, but if we have the capacity to do something we know is right, we must do it, otherwise we have the blood of innocents on our hands!

We are all deal with the Scripture; we just deal with it so differently. I follow whole concept of Jesus' word. Mainstream church doctrines are following without Jesus' word. It does not harmonize with His teachings at all.

You should know that Jesus' servants' loyalty belong to Jesus, not organizational doctrines.

So I see this as implicit denial that Peter was told to put down the sword because the resulting melee would have changed/influenced Jesus being on the cross? Am I correct in this assessment? Let's be honest.

The problem I am having with your reading is that you're reading into this passage (Matthew 26:52) that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword not because the Son of Man is about to die on the cross, but solely for the sake of Pacifism. Thus, the focus is shifted from the Savior of mankind (and what he is about to do on the cross) to essentially a political position. You guys are reading that it's more important to take a pacifist line over what Jesus did to save us all on the cross, and I cannot assent to that proposition.

I reject wholeheartedly the notion that I or anyone else here is pro-violence because we see self defense as an option in the Bible for family and friends at the most basic level. The polarization of this issue is absurd.

You still cannot see that Jesus and His disciples did not practice violence throughout the whole Gospels. Why is that? It seems that you are on denial.

 

[Guestman]

So I see this as implicit denial that Peter was told to put down the sword because the resulting melee would have changed/influenced Jesus being on the cross? Am I correct in this assessment? Let's be honest.

The problem I am having with your reading is that you're reading into this passage (Matthew 26:52) that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword not because the Son of Man is about to die on the cross, but solely for the sake of Pacifism. Thus, the focus is shifted from the Savior of mankind (and what he is about to do on the cross) to essentially a political position. You guys are reading that it's more important to take a pacifist line over what Jesus did to save us all on the cross, and I cannot assent to that proposition.

I reject wholeheartedly the notion that I or anyone else here is pro-violence because we see self defense as an option in the Bible for family and friends at the most basic level. The polarization of this issue is absurd.

Was Jesus promoting pacifism at Matthew 26:52 ? Did Jesus tell Peter to use the sword in his behalf ? No, and if you had read more carefully Luke 22, it could be recognized why Jesus had a sword brought along, that he "be reckoned with lawless ones" in fulfilling Isaiah 53:12, these "lawless ones" being ones who settle disputes or arguments with "a sword", not ones who followed in Jesus "footsteps".(1 Pet 2:21)

You further fail to see what Jesus did when being "reviled", that he did not push for violence, but "did not go reviling in return."(1 Pet 2:22) He waited on his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, to settle all issues once and for all, "committing himself to the one who judges righteously", and ' bearing our sins in his own body upon the stake.' (1 Pet 2:23, 24) The 1st century Christians "got the sense" of Jesus words, whereas later so-called Christians argued in favor of joining the military and became "part of the world" as opposed to Jesus and his genuine disciples.(John 17:16)

The churches have proven themselves as violent, slaughtering people by the millions in their inquisitions and crusades, sending off their young men to the "god of war". That is why at Revelation 18, it says, as a "daughter" of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, that it has partaken in the shedding of much blood, saying: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth."(Rev 18:24)

For this criminal behavior, what will God do ? Revelation 18:5, 6 says: "For her sins have massed clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her."

Then , over at Revelation 19, it describes what is to happen to those who support human political governments and their military, saying: "I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cries out with a loud voice and said to all the birds in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered to the great evening meal of God. that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men (the valiant men of war) and the fleshy parts of horses (in warfare or their military mechanisms) and those seated upon them (such as those following their commanders into battle), and of the fleshy parts of all, of freeman as well as of slaves (who are all used to support the military machine, keeping it running) and of small ones and the great."(Rev 19:17-19)

At Revelation 19:11, it says that there is one who is seated on "a white horse...and he judges and carries on war in righteousness." Who is this ? Jesus Christ. He is at the forefront of an angelic army, leading them to wipe out all human political governments and their military.(Rev 19:14, 15. See also Dan 2:44, whereby the account says that God's kingdom will "crush all these kingdoms" or human political governments existing during our time period)

Hence, Jesus is not a pacifist, but will be actively engaged in the near future to remove all political regimes on earth to make way for God's kingdom to become "a large mountain and fill the whole earth."(Dan 2:35)

 

[HammerStone]

You're only examining Jesus in the context of the Gospels and his mission on the cross, which is a piece of the whole. You're failing to account for both the Old Testament in the Revelation where the language is quite violent. The error is yours, but I only argue with brick walls for so long, sorry.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Man thinks that to kill for another is a person of honor, but that is not so, for the work of the physical rod is considered a position of dishonor, not honor in God's eyes. Even David was not allowed to build the physical temple due to him being a man of war.
And here in these scriptures we get a picture of how we should think of those who allow themselves to be used as dogs of war.
I know this will upset many, but I seek to be a God pleaser not a MAN pleaser and only those led of the flesh will have a problem with what the scripture shows, and they will walk around the Word of truth, just to come and call me false, completely denying the Word that I am showing.
If no man was willing to kill there would be no death by the hand of man. But when we will kill for a GOOD REASON, then who is to say what is a good reason? Killing will live on for we must not return evil for evil.
Judg 7:1-9
7:1 Then Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, and all the people that were with him, rose up early, and pitched beside the well of Harod: so that the host of the Midianites were on the north side of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley.
2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.
8 So the people took victuals in their hand, and their trumpets: and he sent all the rest of Israel every man unto his tent, and retained those three hundred men: and the host of Midian was beneath him in the valley.
9 And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Arise, get thee down unto the host; for I have delivered it into thine hand.
KJV
1 John 3:12
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
KJV

We have natural brother's born of the flesh and we in Christ have spiritual brethren.
Those of the natural are NOT our brothers of the promise, but they are the Esau's, the Cain's who are led of their flesh that we are to rescue from the hands of the enemy who teaches them to kill, by taking the Good News to them to spiritually save them NOT TO HELP the enemy kill them.
And do you realize that when we who are supposed to be a holy temple for God's kingdom which is not of this world, fight for our natural nation, we are standing with the enemy to kill our brethren in Christ who were WILLING to pledge their allegiance to their earthly brother's and nation which is opposing to God's kingdom of Peace not war, and they you?


2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity{WICKEDNESS}.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
KJV

 

[veteran]

Those here against our God-given right to self-defense only reveal themselves to be on an Agenda that is against God's Word and His people. One could lift much of their words right out of the Communist Manfiesto, for it is World Communism that started the strategy in 1958 to push Disarmament and Pacifism in the Christian West via the Church leaders they brainwashed during their religious summits in Moscow. That is where their rhetoric is originating from today, where those here who preach it realize it or not (see defector ex-KGB colonel Golitsyn's 1984 New Lies For Old where he outlined that Communist Disarmament/Pacifist Agenda against the Christian West).

 

[Guestman]

So I see this as implicit denial that Peter was told to put down the sword because the resulting melee would have changed/influenced Jesus being on the cross? Am I correct in this assessment? Let's be honest.

The problem I am having with your reading is that you're reading into this passage (Matthew 26:52) that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword not because the Son of Man is about to die on the cross, but solely for the sake of Pacifism. Thus, the focus is shifted from the Savior of mankind (and what he is about to do on the cross) to essentially a political position. You guys are reading that it's more important to take a pacifist line over what Jesus did to save us all on the cross, and I cannot assent to that proposition.

I reject wholeheartedly the notion that I or anyone else here is pro-violence because we see self defense as an option in the Bible for family and friends at the most basic level. The polarization of this issue is absurd.

Jesus telling Peter to "return the sword to its place" was to provide how a genuine Christian is to act, to be ' peaceable with all men as far it depends on you'.(Rom 12:18) Jesus teachings are incompatible with violence, for "when being reviled", what did Jesus do ? It says that "he did not go reviling in return. When suffering, he did not go threatening (as Peter did with a sword), but kept committing himself to the one (Jehovah God) who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:22, 23)

Jesus telling Peter to "return the sword to its place" has nothing to do with influencing or changing whether Jesus was to be put on a torture stake nor pacifism, but rather with how true Christians are to imitate Jesus, how they are disposed toward others. At John 13, Jesus tells his eleven faithful apostles: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."(John 13:34, 35)

What example did Jesus set for his disciples ? First he always showed loving kindness and then on the following day after saying this, he willingly gave his life for others.(John 10:17, 18) Not once did Jesus accede to violence. However, at God's appointed time in the near future, all this world's political governments and those who who support them as well anyone who fails to fully support Jesus personality by imitating it and his rulership will be disposed of.(Rev 19:19-21: 1 John 2:17; Matt 12:30)

It need be remembered that all those who render violence are hated by Jehovah. At Psalms 11, it says: "Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates."(Ps 11:5) The contrast is here between a "righteous one" and the "wicked one", and it is the "wicked one" that loves violence, but then is hated by Jehovah God.

On the other hand, the "righteous one" does not follow the idea of violence, but rather he "keeps silent before Jehovah and waits longingly on him." (Ps 37:7) Apparently you accept the route of taking a violent course, rather than follow Jesus words to "love one another". Those who do, Psalms 11 further says that God "will rain down upon the wicked ones traps, fire and sulphur and a scorching wind, as the portion of their cup. For Jehovah is righteous; he does love righteous acts. The upright ones are the ones that will behold his face."(Ps 11:6, 7)

Hence, what are the "righteous acts" that God loves ? Is it being violent or showing loving kindness towards others ? What does the context say at Psalms 11 ? How would Jehovah judge those who are "loving violence" ? Bringing upon him "fire and sulphur and a scorching wind." He has become his enemy.

It is not the position of genuine Christians to take up arms or use violence no matter what is done, be it persecution or the putting to death of a true Christian, for they "keep on waiting on Jehovah" whereby Romans 12 says to "return evil for evil to no one....Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath, for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah."(Rom 12:17, 19)

How then are genuine Christians to respond to even persecution and violence toward them ? Paul, quoting from Proverbs 25, says: "But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head."(Rom 12:20) What is meant by ' heaping fiery coals' on an enemy's head ?

Paul points toward an ancient smelting process, whereby metal ores are heated to a very high heat to separate the metal from the ore. Likewise, a genuine Christian shows loving kindness in the face of persecution, in which this may soften his antagonistic feelings, so that he now may listen to the hope from the Bible of these true Christians. These true Christians have also followed Proverbs 15, whereby it says: "An answer when mild turns away rage, but a word causing pain makes anger come up."(Prov 15:1)

As for personal defense, how did Jesus address this ? For one, he often avoided those who were seeking to harm him.(Matt 12:14, 15) He gave this wise counsel: "Look ! I am sending you as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."(Matt 10:16) Do doves cause harm to others ? Hence, using godly wisdom can cause a true Christian to avoid anyone intent on harming them, as well as just being generally safe.

Something else to consider is at Ecclesiastes 9: "A live dog is better off than a dead lion."(Ecc 9:4) What does this mean ? That rather than trying to be a "hero" and take on violence, a wise Christian will seek to avoid trouble, like a dog that may even run away.

You're only examining Jesus in the context of the Gospels and his mission on the cross, which is a piece of the whole. You're failing to account for both the Old Testament in the Revelation where the language is quite violent. The error is yours, but I only argue with brick walls for so long, sorry.

You also fail to grasp the meaning of Romans 12:19: "Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah."(Deut 32:35; Ps 99:8) True Christians leave it to Jehovah God to repay any harmful acts done to them.

At Revelation 6, there is the scene of loyal servants of God asking him after their deaths: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth ?"(Rev 6:10) These loyal ones who died at the hands of enemies recognize that God will avenge their deaths, not other Christians.

 

[KingJ]

Something else to consider is at Ecclesiastes 9: "A live dog is better off than a dead lion."(Ecc 9:4) What does this mean ? That rather than trying to be a "hero" and take on violence, a wise Christian will seek to avoid trouble, like a dog that may even run away.

Correct, we are no better then a dog if we run away!

So in WW2, lets say you were Chamberlain, how would you deal with Hitler?