Is it possible to lose salvation?

[mailmandan]

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Amen!

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

I don't promote a license for immorality, like these ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed in Jude 4.

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Paul says in Hebrew 3:15 while it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

This rest is talking about the thousand year millennium. When Jesus make his second coming and most people who don't believe will not get into that rest.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE. Just as we see in Hebrews 3:18,19 - And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[nedsk]

Descriptive of believers and unbelievers.
The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

Copying and pasting what?

No one is sinless except for Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22)

(1 John 1:8-10)

Yes, and none of us have flawlessly obeyed Jesus and none of us are sinless. So now what? Seek salvation through "imperfect" obedience (works) or by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Yes, of course.

James 4:17 - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

How so? In the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14) I am the tax collector. How would that make me a legalist? I don't trust in myself that I am righteous (vs. 9) like the Pharisee.

I did not add to scripture. If indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. In contrast, those who do not continue had a faith that was not grounded and steadfast in the hope of the gospel because they believed in vain, just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:2.

If one is not firmly grounded and steadfast in the hope of the gospel, then expect one to fall away. That does not mean they were truly saved to begin with. At least we should be able to agree that only faith which is grounded and steadfast in the hope of the gospel saves.

In regard to Romans 11:17-24, the Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians, who are Gentiles, are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)

But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)

Amen! As Paul stated - I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. There is the contrast.

Amen! and not everyone holds fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached. Some believe in vain and will not be saved.

How does one "believe in vain"?

 

[nedsk]

Amen!

I don't promote a license for immorality, like these ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed in Jude 4.

In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE. Just as we see in Hebrews 3:18,19 - And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Of course there is lose of salvation. The prodigal son. He was with the Father. He decided to leave the Father. Salvation wasnt unavailable to him he chose against it but came to his senses and returned. Stop with this osas stuff please.

 

[mailmandan]

How does one "believe in vain"?

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (unsuccessful or of no value, indicating that efforts were made in vain).

 

[nedsk]

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (unsuccessful or of no value, indicating that efforts were made in vain).

Believe without effect? So like faith is completed by works just as James said. So if you believe but choose not to do the work of God then your faith is useless, dead, futile like the fig tree. Excellent

 

[mailmandan]

Of course there is lose of salvation. The prodigal son. He was with the Father. He decided to leave the Father. Salvation wasnt unavailable to him he chose against it but came to his senses and returned. Stop with this osas stuff please.

Please show me the words, "lost salvation" in scripture. In regard to the prodigal son. CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) People in the NOSAS camp will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course, Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NAS). What was the end result of the prodigal son? That is what really matters. It's not over until it's over.

 

[nedsk]

Please show me the words, "lost salvation" in scripture. In regard to the prodigal son. CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) People in the NOSAS camp will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course, Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NAS). What was the end result of the prodigal son? That is what really matters. It's not over until it's over.

Please show me "faith alone" in scripture. Oh right, We are saved by works and not FAITH ALONE. This protestant idiocy of "show me the words..." you're not a serious person

 

[mailmandan]

Believe without effect? So like faith is completed by works just as James said. So if you believe but choose not to do the work of God then your faith is useless, dead, futile like the fig tree. Excellent

Paul is talking about believing the gospel and not producing works after one believes the gospel and becomes saved. We are not saved by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and there is nothing excellent about works-righteousness which renders Christ an insufficient Savior. Belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence, believe in vain. What does the fig tree represent?

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

 

[nedsk]

Paul is talking about believing the gospel and not producing works after one believes the gospel and becomes saved. We are not saved by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and there is nothing excellent about works-righteousness which renders Christ an insufficient Savior. Belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence, believe in vain. What does the fig tree represent?

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

but his faith was not sufficient if it was it wouldnt have needed completion like James said. Keep dancing cowboy

 

[mailmandan]

Please show me "faith alone" in scripture. Oh right, We are saved by works and not FAITH ALONE. This protestant idiocy of "show me the words..." you're not a serious person

Show me the words "saved by works" in scripture. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Check mate.

 

[mailmandan]

but his faith was not sufficient if it was it wouldnt have needed completion like James said. Keep dancing cowboy

You don't understand what complete means. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous. Stop dancing and start believing.

 

[nedsk]

You don't understand what complete means. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous. Stop dancing and start believing.

It's funny it's never you people that don't understand. The words of Scripture are clear, we are saved by works and not faith alone. YOU demanded "lose salvation" when I ask you for "faith alone" you claim I don't understand. What I understand, because I have a functioning brain, is that if faith was sufficient for salvation it wouldn't need any kind of completion.

You believe huh? That's sufficient huh? James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well to assert that. But even the demons believe and tremble. Friends of yours are they?

 

[mailmandan]

It's funny it's never you people that don't understand. The words of Scripture are clear, we are saved by works and not faith alone. YOU demanded "lose salvation" when I ask you for "faith alone" you claim I don't understand. What I understand, because I have a functioning brain, is that if faith was sufficient for salvation it wouldn't need any kind of completion.

You believe huh? That's sufficient huh? James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well to assert that. But even the demons believe and tremble. Friends of yours are they?

So, you still have not shown me a verse that says, "save by works" or "lose salvation." Ephesians 2:8,9 says saved by grace, through faith and not by works. Either we are saved through faith and not by works or else we are saved through faith and works. Hence faith alone. You can't have it both ways.

In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have faith in/assurance in/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Learn the difference.

 

[nedsk]

So, you still have not shown me a verse that says, "save by works" or "lose salvation." Ephesians 2:8,9 says saved by grace, through faith and not by works. Either we are saved through faith and not by works or else we are saved through faith and works. Hence faith alone. You can't have it both ways.

In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have faith in/assurance in/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Learn the difference.

You still haven't shown me that we are saved by "faith alone". Your standard is juvenile and you can't even live up to a standard you expect of me. You people always do this crap. However as to "saved by works"

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Now won't move on until you provide a passage that reads we are saved or justified by "faith alone". If you can't meet your own standard then you're nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. You're a child.

 

[mailmandan]

You still haven't shown me that we are saved by "faith alone".

Yes I did. Saved through faith, not works. The word faith "stands alone" in connection with "saved" in Ephesians 2:8,9. In order for it not to be faith alone, it would have to read saved through faith and works. Again, you can't have it both ways.

Your standard is juvenile and you can't even live up to a standard you expect of me. You people always do this crap. However as to "saved by works"

No need to be rude.

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

In context, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Learn the difference.

The word "justified" can mean "accounted as righteous" as in Romans 4:2-3 or "shown to be righteous" as in James 2:24.

Now won't move on until you provide a passage that reads we are saved or justified by "faith alone". If you can't meet your own standard then you're nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. You're a child.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ. Your name calling is childish.

 

[Kokyu]

You're going to have to post the scripture if we're going to have a serious conversation.
I don't have the NT memorized so I don't know what Romans 6:1-11 states unless you post it.

I assume you have a print Bible. Yes? Perhaps even a digital one on your p.c.? There's Bible Gateway online, or Blue Letter Bible. Can you not access them?

So, again, are you stating that once a person is saved, he can either choose to obey Jesus and do good works OR not obey Jesus?
THIS sounds like what you said in the post to which I'm responding.

Again,,,here is what you posted in no. 343, to which I was responding:

"And so, Paul has many places in his letters where he explains the spiritual reality in which Christians are as adopted children of God so that they act properly in resistance of the old, carnal nature under which they once lived in bondage (and may still, if they so choose)."

Please correct me if I don't understand but the above SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that a born again person should act properly in resisting the old, caarnal nature in which they once lived....AND MAY STILL IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

I really would like to clarify this.

IOW,,, it sounds like you're stating that, if we so choose, we could still live under the old carnal nature.

I find your confusion here very odd. Perhaps you're expecting that I hold to antinomianism, or I'm a "free grace" person who thinks salvation is a license to sin. I'm not. When I say a Christian may still choose to live in sin I am NOT indicating that any Christian SHOULD do so, or that God is okay with the Christian who lives according to the dictates of their old, unregenerate Self. Of course not. I mean only that the born-again person has a sin-nature as well as a new nature in Christ and that these war against each other within the Christian (Ga. 5:17), as Paul described in Romans 7:14-22. Neither nature has an overwhelming, compelling power over the Christian person, which is why they choose one or the other to follow every day.

HOW can a Christian choose to follow the direction of the old carnal self??

The better question, I think, is: How can they not? Anyway, no Christian should be directed by the old Self as Romans 6:1-11 explains, but many, if not most, are directed by it because they understand next-to-nothing of Romans 6, Galatians 2:20; 5:16, 25, Philippians 2:13 or Romans 8:9-14.

YOU posted Romans 7:14-22 so you must like what it states.
I asked you what you believe it states,
to which you have not replied.

What you've written above is a glaring non sequitur. Why would I "like" the terrible struggle Paul described in Romans 7? Why would my reference to it necessarily mean I "like it"? I've referenced murder, adultery, homosexuality, lying, even human sacrifice in various forum posts I've made over the last twenty years but never in approval of these things. Does the oncologist who speaks of his patient's tumor do so because he likes the tumor? Is the police officer who speaks in court of the details of a murder expressing, therefore, that he likes murder? I'm sure you'd say not.

Paul tells us to stand fast in our faith.

I'll post the scripture again...perhaps you could concentrate on Paul stating that we must hold fast TO OUR FAITH.

I already pointed out what he actually wrote. And he wrote nothing about a Christian losing their salvation. He wrote that if they did not remain steadfast in their faith they would not be presented holy, blameless and unreproveable at the Final Judgment but this isn't to say they would be unsaved. If Paul had wanted to say such a thing, he could - and would - have done so explicitly and plainly, which he never does. Instead, folks like yourself misconstrue or stretch his words to mean salvation-lost. But your willingness to impose this meaning on his words in no way obliges me to go along with you in doing so.

I asked you to explain Galatians 5:17...to which you have not replied.

What is there to explain, exactly? Paul could not have been more plain in his language in the verse. Shall I just repeat what he said in my own words? Is this what you're wanting?

Paul states that we will be presented holy and blameless before God
IF we CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....

IOW,,,we must CONTINUE IN THE FAITH IF we're going to be saved.
IF we DO NOT CONTINUE IN THE FAITH we will NOT be saved.

Yes, Paul wrote what you say he did in the first sentence above. But he most certainly did NOT write - or mean - what you've asserted in the second sentence. If Paul had meant to say that not remaining steadfast dissolved one's salvation, he was more than capable of stating that clearly and plainly. But he did NOT write this. He wrote only of a bad showing at the Final Judgment, not the loss of one's salvation (See 1 Co. 3:11-15). There is NOTHING in the text of the verse that requires the "in other words" that you're asserting. Nothing. You're simply forcing your saved-and-lost presupposition onto Paul's words, as far as I can see.

Because K,,,if one departs from the faith he is no longer ABIDING in Christ.
Abiding in Christ is necessary for one to be saved.

John 15:6 Jesus said
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus never said in verse 6 "If the saved person no longer abides in Me," or "If you no longer abide in me," or "If you cease to abide in me." No, he spoke of "anyone," not his disciples specifically, and said, "Does not abide in me" rather than "no longer abides," or "ceases to abide." Verse 6, then, doesn't describe a single person moving from one condition to another - from abiding to not abiding. Verse 6 stands in contrasting parallel to the person who abides in Christ (i.e. is saved). This is the yet-to-be-saved person, the lost person, who, if s/her remains so, is "cast into the fire and burned."

2 John 1:9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Who's in view in John's remarks here? Deceivers, who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (vs. 7). What's at stake if John's readers are taken in by these deceivers? Their heavenly reward. Is this reward the same thing as their salvation? No. See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. One can lose all of one's reward and still be saved. And, as well, salvation is a gift, not a reward.

Romans 5:15
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

A reward is earned but a gift is not. God gives to us His Son and salvation in him to us freely, as a gift, when we were yet sinners, weak, "dead in trespasses and sins," "foolish, disobedient and deceived" (Ro. 5:6; Eph. 2:1; Tit. 3:3). When John wrote of "a full reward," then, he could not have meant salvation which no one deserves, no one can earn and which God offers to us purely as an expression of His love, grace and mercy.

In any case, the "anyone" who "goes too far" and "does not abide in the teaching of Christ" does not lose God, s/he does not become lost again. Instead, what John wrote was that such a person - a deceiver, not a believer - "does not have God," not "no longer has God," or "ceases to have God." John, then, is not writing about how one could lose one's salvation but about the never-saved deceiver who must be refused entrance into a Christian's home.

 

[Kokyu]

Jesus said this, I quoted John 15:6 above.
John stated this in 2 John 1:9

See above. They only "say this" once you've forced a saved-and-lost construction upon their words.

I just post scripture.
It's plainly written and easy to understand.

No, you post Scripture and then add your own saved-and-lost spin to it; you don't "just post Scripture." See above.

I wish Scripture was, for you, as you think it is. But the eisegetical warping that you're doing to Scripture suggests it's understood by you - in respect to this question of eternal security, at least - very poorly.

What do you mean by standing before God not holy?
Paul said we must be blameless AND holy when we stand before God.

Colossians 1:22
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

Where is the "must" in this verse? As in other instances with the proof-texts you've offered, you're adding words to, you're imposing meaning upon, what is written. Paul did NOT say we must be blameless and holy when we stand before God at the Final Judgment.

That's a favorite verse of those that believe in OSAS...
unfortunately it does not mean what you believe it means.
Don't take my word for it...look it up.

There were some gnostics that had entered into Jesus' groupl.
They were never Christian or followers of Jesus.

Well, your merely saying it doesn't mean what I think it means doesn't make it so. I have "looked it up" many times and, because I understand what John wrote, I referred to 1 John 1:19 as I did in a perfectly appropriate way.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Who's in view in this passage? Antichrists. John says that they are exposed as such when they leave the Body of Believers. Were these antichrists themselves born-again believers? John wrote that "...they were not really of us..." for if they had been, they'd have remained within the Church. These are the "false brethren" of whom Paul spoke (2 Co. 11:26; Ga. 2:4), the "tares" Jesus said would be in the kingdom of God (Matt. 13:36-43), the "false prophets/teachers" in the Church of whom Peter warned so stridently (2 Pe. 2). And one of the ways they reveal what they really are is by their going out from the Church at some point.

So, John lays out a general principle in verse 19: If a person departs the Church/the faith, they reveal they were never really of God's family and kingdom. I come to this conclusion without having to add anything to what John wrote; I just take his words exactly as they're written.

Paul admonishes to REMAIN IN THE FAITH.
REMAIN IN THE FAITH
means the persons he's addressing were IN THE FAITH.

He warned against FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH:

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

In order to fall away from faith...
you must HAVE faith.

Hebrews 3:12 doesn't say "REMAIN IN THE FAITH." The writer of Hebrews warns against "an evil, unbelieving heart" that leads to "falling away from the living God," but the writer nowhere in the verse wrote "REMAIN IN THE FAITH." Anyway, what does the writer mean by "falling away"? I think he indicates very clearly exactly what he means: taking up an unbelieving heart and being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

The writer of Hebrews was actually referring to what the Israelites did when they finally arrived at the border of Canaan. They took up an "evil heart of unbelief" and refused to go in and take the Promised Land to which God had led them (See Numbers 13-14). Having "fallen away" from God in this manner, refusing to believe His promise and enter Canaan, did God abandon Israel or cast them away as a nation that was no longer His? Not at all. Instead, for the next forty years, He supplied for, and preserved His Chosen People while they wandered in the wilderness.

What does "falling away" mean, then, in this context? Lost salvation? No. It means the loss, not of one's relationship to God, but of all the benefits of the spiritual Promised Land in Christ, obtained in faith-filled fellowship with God. I think of it this way: If I own a lawnmower but come to believe I can do a better job trimming my grass with a pair of nail-clippers, do I cease to own the lawnmower? No, I cannot enjoy the benefits of the lawnmower if I don't believe it can cut my grass better than a pair of nail-clippers, but I still possess my lawnmower.

So, too, the Christian who "falls away" from God in unbelief. Like the disbelieving Israelites, the Christian doesn't cease to be in relationship with God, but s/he does cease to enjoy the spiritual benefits of their "Promised Land" in Jesus Christ. And, of course, God is very displeased by this state-of-affairs, too.

In order to fall away from faith...
you must HAVE faith.

But Hebrews 3:12 doesn't say anything about falling away from the faith. This is another of your additions to the text of Scripture. You're assuming that "fall away from the living God" means "fall away from the faith" but, as I explained above, this isn't the case.

 

[nedsk]

Yes I did. Saved through faith, not works. The word faith "stands alone" in connection with "saved" in Ephesians 2:8,9. In order for it not to be faith alone, it would have to read saved through faith and works. Again, you can't have it both ways.

No need to be rude.

In context, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Learn the difference.

The word "justified" can mean "accounted as righteous" as in Romans 4:2-3 or "shown to be righteous" as in James 2:24.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ. Your name calling is childish.

What a load of horse crap. The word faith standing alone is not the same as we are saved by "faith alone." You're either stupid or you're playing stupid. Which is it?

 

[mailmandan]

What a load of horse crap. The word faith standing alone is not the same as we are saved by "faith alone." You're either stupid or you're playing stupid. Which is it?

The word faith standing alone is faith (rightly understood) in Jsus.Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) What part of "God imputes righteousness apart from works" and "saveed through faith not works" do you not understand? Your name calling is not helping your case at all.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[nedsk]

The word faith standing alone is faith (rightly understood) in Jsus.Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) What part of "God imputes righteousness apart from works" and "saveed through faith not works" do you not understand? Your name calling is not helping your case at all.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Ah there we go, "rightly" understood. That's protestant for, that what I need it to say. You wanted something from Scripture that says, "saved by works". I gave it to you. Now I want you to show me where Scripture says, we are saved my "faith alone" which is what you are claiming Scripture says. If Scripture says it there isnt a need to "rightly" understand anything because it would sayn"we are saved by "faith alone" but it doesn't say that hence your buffoonery.

As to name calling I'll call you what I like because your idiocy doesn't deserve respect.