Is it possible to lose salvation?

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Eternally Grateful

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If your good works - or the lack of them - have the power to keep you saved (i.e. - in the Book of Life) or not, then you are the one, in the end, who saves you. It's what you do that secures your salvation, right? This is what you seem to be saying in the quotation above: Jesus saves you but your salvation remains yours only so long as you can keep it (by your good works). If I take this view, I am making myself a co-Savior with Jesus Christ. This necessarily diminishes Jesus and what he did on the cross and magnifies and elevates me to a place of parity with him. This is blasphemy, as far as I can see.

Yes, the truly born-again person naturally produces the "fruit" of redemption. But what is natural to being a Spirit-indwelt child of God is not therefore necessary. It is natural for an apple tree to bear apples but doing so is not necessary to it being an apple tree. There are all sorts of reasons why an apple tree might not bear apples, but none of them undo the fundamental nature of the apple tree.

So, too, the Christian person. It is the natural outworking of their faith in Christ, of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that they would act in reflection of that faith (Ja. 2:14-26), the Person of the Holy Spirit manifesting himself in and through them (Ga. 5:22-23; 2 Co. 3:18). But all sorts of things may interfere with this happening - bad teachers/teaching, tragedy, serious injury or illness, spiritual immaturity, deeply entrenched "besetting sin," etc. It doesn't follow, though, that when these hindrances to good works stifle fruit-bearing, the fundamental "new creature in Christ" nature given at conversion is dissolved. Like the apple tree, the absence of fruit in the life of the believer doesn't undo their basic, Spirit-given nature.

Too often, the legalistic, fear-mongering, grace-denying, salvation-lost/works-salvation crowd want to paint the OSAS believer as an antinomian, a "live like the devil because I'm under God's forgiveness and grace" type of person when, in my fifty years of experience in the Church, the OSAS believer lives a far holier, more Christ-centered, love-filled, joyful life than the fearful salvation-lost believer does. It is a generally false, Boogey Man tactic, that the salvation-lost person puts forward when they cast the question of the eternal security of salvation in the false dichotomy of "be afraid for your salvation and so obey God," or "be confident in the security of your salvation and live in unrestrained sin." There is another option which is that the person confident that their eternal life is actually eternal, as secure as God's acceptance of Christ is secure in whom every born-again person stands, is free to live in love, joy and peace with God, drawing closer to their loving, gracious, gentle heavenly Father all the time. Instead of the dangerous divine Warden looming over them with the threat of hell should they "cross the line," the believer confident in the permanency of their eternal salvation walks joyfully with their Maker in the power of the Holy Spirit and so grows ever-more holy, ever-more Christ-like as the days pass.

It simply doesn't follow, then - certainly not necessarily - that a born-again person who is sure of their eternal membership in God's family will go off into a life of unrestrained evil. This hasn't been my personal experience, nor has it been what I've observed in the lives of other believers who hold to OSAS, nor is it what I see taught or illustrated in God's word. This doesn't mean that false brethren, "tares," aren't in both camps of thought on the security of one's salvation, living in an immoral "free grace" way on the one side, or in hypocritical, fearful legalism on the other. And so, we can't determine the truth of whether or not our salvation is truly eternal on the basis of those in either camp who openly, or in secret, live in contradiction to what the Bible describes as normal Christian living. Instead, I look at what Scripture actually says, and when I do, a salvation-lost doctrine just doesn't appear.
One who trusts God can come to God and find healing. Because they see God as an Abba father not a spirit of fear.

Also. They know they have eternal life (no question) as as John said, this is the means of hope which keeps us trusting God.. if we keep trusting, even when we fail. We will keep our eyes forward, and learn to grow

sadly, if we do not have this assurance, we are apt to hide our sins. And make it appear we are more righteous. We will also go after people. To make ourselves feel better.. which we see in here. The pharisee pumping his chest.
 
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nedsk

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Why must "fear and trembling" be a reference to the fear of losing one's salvation?

Philippians 2:9-13
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


In context, verse 12 follows Paul writing of the Final Judgment when all will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In the light of this, we ought to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." As a born-again child of God, I look forward to this day and take joy in the prospect of declaring Jesus my Lord. On this matter, the apostle John wrote the following:

John 4:16-18
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.


John didn't think the saints of God would stand before Him on the Day of Judgment afraid but with confidence, knowing they were "as He is" that is, "joint-heirs with Christ" (Ro. 8:16), redeemed, justified and sanctified "temples" of the Spirit of Christ (1 Co. 1:19-20; 6:19-20). These saints have both known and believed the love God has for them and are indwelt by His love in the Person of the Holy Spirit (1 Jn 4:13; Ro. 8:9-16; Ro. 5:5; Ga 5:23). So, then, they have no craven fear of punishment on Judgment Day, only joy at meeting the One whose love lives within them and fills them.

I don't think, therefore, that by "fear and trembling" Paul meant the sort of fear a guilty man endures when the sentence for his crimes is about to be handed down. I think it is the "fear" that is reverential awe and "trembling" that expresses excitement at the wonderful prospect of meeting their loving Creator face-to-face. And why should the born-again person have craven fear of wrath and punishment when God is working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure? If this is the case, as John wrote, they can have boldness in the Day of Judgment, not fear, because they know that "He who has begun a good work in them will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil 1:6).



No, this is not what OSAS says at all. I have held to, and taught, OSAS for decades and never have I ever urged my fellow siblings in Christ to "get comfortable and take it easy" because their eternal destiny was irrevocably secure. Quite the opposite, actually. Instead of fear of punishment motivating believers, I have shown them that God commands them to a higher, far more powerful motive for walking in His will and way: Love. His First and Great Commandment to His children is to love Him (Matt. 22:36-38), not live in constant terror that He will remove His salvation from them. As the apostle John wrote, "he who fears is not made perfect in love." As God's love fills the believer, maturing them spiritually, it "casts out fear" so that the mature saint of God lives only in joy, and peace, and eager expectation of an eternity with their Maker.

God's First and Great Commandment addresses the inner man (or woman), what they desire (i.e. love), ruling out Christian living from any other motive than love:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


No matter what I say (vs. 1), or know (vs. 2), or do (vs. 3), if love is not my fundamental motive for it - first for God and then for others - it all "profits nothing" spiritually. In part, this is because every other motive has Self as its chief focus rather than God. Fear, in particular, is like this. The Christian man who fears God in a craven way, who is in constant terror of punishment from Him all the time, is focused on protecting himself from God. He sees God only as a threat to be avoided, a danger to himself that he needs to mitigate as much as possible. This "God-fearing" man has his own well-being in mind, not the joyful self-sacrifice that agape love engenders. And so, God, in the passage above from 1 Corinthians 13, rejects completely this sort of craven fear as a proper motive for living as His child.

I used to practice and teach a Japanese martial art. For thirty years, daily I sweated and strained, suffering twisted appendages, being flipped onto my back, punched in various tender places, breaking teeth, spraining tendons and dislocating joints in the process, and so on. Why? Because I was really self-disciplined, as my sister once said to me? Because I was afraid not to train? Not at all! I endured all of this - and joyfully - because I loved the training and what I was learning from it. Fear could not have carried me through all that it cost me to train. Only love of the training was strong enough to keep me at it despite the sacrifices and pain of doing so and to train with joy.

So, too, in walking with God. Only love is powerful enough to motivate me into the self-sacrifice of agape love and only agape love produces in me joy in the midst of dying to myself. I know, you see, that in the sacrifice of myself, I will encounter more of the God I deeply desire, and so I'm happy to give up whatever I must in pursuit of Him. Fear can't do this, which is why God's First and Great Commandment is what it is.

When, then, I hear Christians tell me that they rely on fear to motivate them in their walk with God, I understand that they neither know God, nor are walking well with Him. In my experience, in these sort of believers there is always gross, secret and persistent sin underneath their angry, legalistic "righteousness." What's worse, in every instance where they think they're obeying God's laws, because they are doing so in disobedience to His First and Great Commandment and relying on fear instead, they are in chronic disobedience to Him! Remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.



Yes, you're wrong. In my experience, believers confident in the love and salvation of God are fiercely eager to know and walk with Him, prompted by a deep love for Him as they are. There are, of course, "false brethren," "tares" that dwell within the Church that see God's grace as a license to disobey Him. But false converts can be found in every doctrinal camp within Christendom and are always the most vicious and ugly in their defense of their particular doctrinal "hobby horse" (that's how you can mark them out as the "tares" that they are).

God's only prescribed motive for walking with Him is love, not craven fear of punishment, or duty/obligation, or self-righteousness, or habit, or whatever. Gratefulness, too, is not love (though it overlaps somewhat with love) and as such it is not sufficient as a motive for walking with God.



Again, OSAS doesn't "suggest" getting comfortable and careless morally and spiritually. See above.
Of course osas suggest getting comfortable and careless morally and spiritually. If you're ALWAYS saved by definition that means you can't lose your salvation so why would you need to be careful morally and spiritually? You can't have it both ways.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Of course osas suggest getting comfortable and careless morally and spiritually. If you're ALWAYS saved by definition that means you can't lose your salvation so why would you need to be careful morally and spiritually? You can't have it both ways.
This just shows you do not understand true faith

Osas is based on the promises of God and our faith in those promises.

it is also based on our faith That God is trustwortjy

so a person who has faith would NEVER think it is ok to sin

And this is what John says those who sin have never seen God. Those born of God are incapable of living in sin.

turn to God. Trust him, Not yourself..
 

nedsk

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This just shows you do not understand true faith

Osas is based on the promises of God and our faith in those promises.

it is also based on our faith That God is trustwortjy

so a person who has faith would NEVER think it is ok to sin

And this is what John says those who sin have never seen God. Those born of God are incapable of living in sin.

turn to God. Trust him, Not yourself..
This just shows you do not understand true faith

Osas is based on the promises of God and our faith in those promises.

it is also based on our faith That God is trustwortjy

so a person who has faith would NEVER think it is ok to sin

And this is what John says those who sin have never seen God. Those born of God are incapable of living in sin.

turn to God. Trust him, Not yourself..
So you actually believe you don't sin?
 

Big Boy Johnson

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I'm afraid

Why so scared? :Ohz




I have held to, and taught, OSAS for decades

Deceiving people for decades, causing who knows how many to stumble.

Telling people it's not possible for them to lose their salvation (which is not biblical) is letting people know that should they go back to living in sin they are still saved. So the fake OSAS stuff is a trick of the devil.




never have I ever urged my fellow siblings in Christ to "get comfortable and take it easy" because their eternal destiny was irrevocably secure.

OK, so you do acknowledge that their eternal destiny is NOT irrevocably secure.

In one breath you say it is, then you turn around and say it is not.:funlaugh2




Again, OSAS doesn't "suggest" getting comfortable and careless morally and spiritually

Sure it does!

It tells people they cannot lose their salvation so it's all good if they want to live in sin which is what so many are doing now due to hearing OSAS fake doctrine

You cannot explain this away - once you say "you cannot lose your salvation" then when someone decided to believe thatt and go back to living in sin like they did before getting born again you must either continue to say "you cannot lose your salvation" or admit you are teaching false doctrine which you are according to God's Word.
 

Kokyu

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Of course osas suggest getting comfortable and careless morally and spiritually. If you're ALWAYS saved by definition that means you can't lose your salvation so why would you need to be careful morally and spiritually? You can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure why you would just deny everything I explained about why those who hold to OSAS - myself among them - don't think as you say they do in the quotation above. Is there some reason beyond your flat denial and unfounded assertion above that should persuade anyone to believe your statement? As you've stated it, your thinking above just offers a big non sequitur that is refuted both in my own life and in the lives of hundreds of people whom I know personally who hold to the OSAS view. For the reasons I explained in my post to DaveMac, none of us have been comfortable and careless in our salvation and gone off into wicked living. So, then, we can - and do - have both a very solid biblical basis for OSAS and joyfully God-honoring lives.
 
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Behold

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It tells people they cannot lose their salvation so it's all good if they want to live in sin

Noone who is a real Christian, born again, who understands that you can't stop being born again (Eternal Security)... teaches that you can live in sin.
Paul teaches that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" EPH 4.... which is "eternal security", and He teachs that if you live in sin, (A Christian) and wont ever turn from it.........you'll "die".

The issue with those who have severely limited NT understanding, regarding God's Grace, and they are LEGION on "christian" forums.... is that they are trying to keep themselves saved, because they have no real Faith in Christ.......its been lost.
So, that is what causes them to find it impossible to believe that Jesus keeps them saved......so, this is why they can't understand Eternal Security and want to fight it on Forums, and in Pulpits, and in commentaries, and in Videos.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Noone who is a real Christian, born again, who understands that you can't stop being born again (Eternal Security)... teaches that you can live in sin.

And yet so many are living in sin pointing to OSAS claim that "one cannot lose their salvation" as they claim it's all good saying "judge not" so they can get away with living in sin.

You cannot tell Those living in sin they are not saved if you truly believe OSAS teachings. If you do, then that is admitting you really don't believe OSAS teachings.

OSAS is false doctrine because God's Word does not actually teach one cannot lose their salvation.
OSAS folks claim it does but they ignore the warnings the Lord give that prove one CAN actually lose their salvation

OSAS folks continually either ignore those warnings or engage in subterfuge and chicanery in their efforts to explain God's warnings away effectively calling God a liar in the process.

It's a sad state of affairs for these people which they will learn the hard way when the future gets here. :Ohz
 

Behold

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And yet so many are living in sin pointing to OSAS

What church is that?
Who preaches that you can live in sin and have eternal security?
Where are these people?

You are the only one posting this nonsense @Big Boy Johnson .

See, you are just posting a made up figment of your OSAS imagination, because you want to argue, because you are this type person.
Thats why you keep creating this fantasy that is...>"but all these OSAS people live in sin"....

Who are they?
They are the little people inside your head....talking to you...apparently

Pppsssssst.... (Stop listening to them).

You dont know anyone on this forum, who understands Eternal Security, who will ever say, teach, think, or believe that "you can live in sin now".

Name a person, a church, a preacher, a denomination who teaches that you can live in sin, now that your are a christian.

Oh thats right.....this does not exist in real Christianity... it just lives inside your little head @Big Boy Johnson
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'm not sure why you would just deny everything I explained about why those who hold to OSAS - myself among them - don't think as you say they do in the quotation above. Is there some reason beyond your flat denial and unfounded assertion above that should persuade anyone to take believe your statement? As you've stated it, your thinking above just offers a big non sequitur that is refuted both in my own life and in the lives of hundreds of people whom I know personally who hold to the OSAS view. For the reasons I explained in my post to DaveMac, none of us have been comfortable and careless in our salvation and gone off into wicked living. So, then, we can - and do - have both a very solid biblical basis for OSAS and joyfully God-honoring lives.
Again the apostle John says we can’t do this.

Because we re perfected by God not by sepf

And our faith continues to rely on God and not self
 

Kokyu

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Why so scared?

As you do with God's word, you've taken my words out of their context. And you get the same contortion of my meaning as you've been getting in your interpretation of Scripture.

Deceiving people for decades, causing who knows how many to stumble.

Nope. But you're entitled to your opinion - however mistaken it is.

Telling people it's not possible for them to lose their salvation (which is not biblical) is letting people know that should they go back to living in sin they are still saved. So the fake OSAS stuff is a trick of the devil.

Nope. I've already explained why this is false. Simply repeating this false claim, then, doesn't somehow make it true.

OK, so you do acknowledge that their eternal destiny is NOT irrevocably secure.

In one breath you say it is, then you turn around and say it is not.

Nope. This isn't what I did. But, again, you've misrepresented my statements to serve your own view rather than to serve what is true. You do the same thing with God's word, as I've shown in earlier posts in this thread.

Sure it does!

It tells people they cannot lose their salvation so it's all good if they want to live in sin which is what so many are doing now due to hearing OSAS fake doctrine

No, it doesn't. And what you describe here of the OSAS view is just a silly Strawman of it that no one but the saved-and-lost crowd put forward. This Strawman is actually also a form of the Boogey Man fallacy.

You cannot explain this away - once you say "you cannot lose your salvation" then when someone decided to believe thatt and go back to living in sin like they did before getting born again you must either continue to say "you cannot lose your salvation" or admit you are teaching false doctrine which you are according to God's Word.

No, I "examine" whether or not the person is in the faith, as Paul urged his readers in Corinth to do (2 Co. 13:5-6). If there is evidence of the life and work of the Spirit in the person (conviction, illumination, strengthening, comfort, transformation), I have solid reason to think their profession of faith is genuine. But if not, if there is no such evidence, and has never been, then I know they have not been saved, whatever they claim. So, then, what you've asserted above is simply not the case.
 

amigo de christo

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No. But on what basis does anyone "endure to the end"? On the basis of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who imparts to the lost the saving life and persevering power of Jesus Christ. See Romans 8:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 4:13, Ephesians 3:16; 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit who enables a person to "endure to the end."



Do you think so? I hope not.



Baby? Um... I'm not your baby.

And we "hold our confidence firm" because of what? Our own determined self-effort? No. See above. God saves us and He keeps us. See Philippians 1:6, John 10:28-29 and Hebrews 13:5.



Tell you again? Where have I told you this before? I think you're losing track of who you're writing to...



Uh, speak for yourself, there, fellow.



??? Okay...



Uh huh.
JESUS does keep the sheep . I know this my friend.
Guess how GOD WORKS , CHRIST WORKS to keep HIS sheep safe and from falling .
THROUGH the SPIRIT .
GUESS what the SPIRIT does , IT unctions and reminds the sheep daily .
Guess HOW the SPIRIT also works
THE SAME as it did through paul , through peter
REMINDING THE CHURCH to continue , to flee evil. The SPIRIT filled ones
would have Rebuked , corrected , warned , kept and followed THE very pattern JESUS first set
and later the apostles had kept and taught . What the SPIRIT wont do
is try and warn those who warn others and remind others about continuing in HIM
about exhorting one another daily lest ONE do become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
AS NOT HAVING FAITH OR TRUST IN JESUS . NO SIR the SPIRIT DONT DO that , but OSAS SURE DOES .
REMOVE any part of HIS pattern , including warnings and reminders
AND that is a people THAT WILL GO DOWN HILL . Hope that helps .
 
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nedsk

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Did I say that?

Did the apostle John say that?

Did he not say he who says he hs no sin deceives himself. And there is no truth in them
What???? You don't like people claiming you said things you didn't say? Sounds like you have an emotional boo boo

So you do sin you just don't think it matters because you're ,"saved".
 

amigo de christo

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According to what you wrote

You had to do it to stay saved

this is self righteousness (your doing it to earn something) not Gods righteousness (doing it because yu are powered by God)

not I do not know you very much so I wil nto assume things but I pray you are not abiding to stay saved.

God keeps us. He said he will never leave nor forsake us. He is more powerful that we are. We can not hide from God. Nor can we go anywhere God is not there..

so.. Take from it what you will
Men duped yall big time . WHY Do you even think there are gifts in the church .
;Exhorters in the church .
AND WHO do you THINK is the ONE using such men to warn and to remind the church .
Every time one comes and even brings any kind of reminder
of having to continue in HIM to the end
or warning men to repent , LIKE JESUS DID , and Like the apostels did
AND THEN LIKE JESUS DID AGAIN from heaven , ITS always
OH you cant lose salvation , OH this or oh that to fit an acroymn .
SO again i ask the question
WHAT IS WRONG with one who says YE MUST BELEIVE ON JESUS and CONTINUE IN HIM to THE END .
Buenos suerte , cause JESUS and later the apostels TOLD the church the same things .
BUT TODAY if we do dare do such a thing as to remind them , AS DID JESUS , AS DID THE APOSTELS
THE RESPONSE IS , OH YA TRUSTING IN SELF to keep ya saved .
But one thing they can never bring is SCRIPTURES to prove HOW reminding one of this very thing IS WRONG .
GOOD luck my friend , YOU will not be able to find such an answer to support
any kind of mindset that says in any way ITS WRONG to remind the church about HAVING to continue IN HIM
to THE END .
 
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Titus

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And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace.But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."(Romans 11:6 AV)
Works in Romans is the law of Moses. Old testament law keeping absolutely cancels grace if you are trying to keep it during the new covenant of Jesus Christ.
Context determines what Paul means when he uses the word works.
 

Titus

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Amen.

works do not Cancel Grace? hmm...:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace.​
But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​
(Romans 11:6 AV)​

Grace Through faith ( Ephesians 2:8:9... Titus, etc. ) is for God's Eternal Salvation!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

works (we all should (...v 10) do) merit "rewards" within God's Eternal Salvation (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV),
eh?:

Amen.
Sir, you have wrongly divided the Scriptures.
Faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29
 
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amigo de christo

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Works in Romans is the law of Moses. Old testament law keeping absolutely cancels grace if you are trying to keep it during the new covenant of Jesus Christ.
Context determines what Paul means when he uses the word works.
The question is , was it evil for them
to adhere to the law . NO .
SO why then did they fail . THEY SOUGHT RIGHTEOUSNESS by THE WORKS OF THE LAW , NOT BY FAITH .
GOD ordained them to walk in good works
That has NOT CHANGED .
What did change was , GOD NOW GIVETH the SPIRIT to all who DO beleive on JESUS
and BY HIM they are HIS created WORKMAN SHIP to DO THOSE GOOD WORKS that GOD BEFORE ordained .
SEEKING RIGHTEOUSNESS , NOT by their works
BUT BY FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST ALONE . FAITH IN JESUS .
 

Titus

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Romans 11:6, 7
- and if by Grace then it is no more of works(law of Moses)
otherwise grace is no more grace but if it be of works then is it no more grace otherwise work is no more work

- What then  Israel hath not obtained that which he speaketh for but the election hath obtained it and the rest were blinded

Paul is teaching about the Jews trying to be saved by working the commandments of the old testament law.
They had the idea that they could merit their salvation by their own works.
Therefore they cancelled grace by believing they earned their salvation by law keeping.

So works in this context is speaking of the jews/Israel trying to be saved by meritorious works rather than grace.