Is it possible to lose salvation?

[marks]

We have a HOPE of salvation and will not know we are saved until the end.
Jesus said: Those that endure till the end will be saved.

Biblical "hope" is not wistful and uncertain as is the American English "hope".

Look again at the passage. We know, said the apostle. Do you know that when you see Jesus you will be like Him? Do you know this?

Those who have this hope (expectation based on faith) are those who purify themselves.

So again, do you know as a fact that you will be like Jesus when you see Him?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Do you know?

Much love!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Do you not want to ACT on Jesus words like the wise man?

This makes me think of the parable where Jesus said those that build their houses on His Words are building upon the Rock and those not building their houses on His Words are building on sand and their fall will be disastrous!

 

[GodsGrace]

You keep sidestepping the heart of your claims. Your own personal obedience.

You and the other fellow both have been slandering me, which if memory serves, God commands us to speak truth to each other, so that's a fail. That is, it's sin. So there goes your obedience. Maybe that's why you keep deflecting on this point. Because you already know you are at times disobedient, but that strikes against your assertions. So you are reluctant to talk about it. I completely understand!

Much love!

Why don't you ever reply to my posts instead of worrying about my salvation?
My salvation is none of your concern.

No deflection.
I'm responding to the OP.

The OP is NOT about MY salvation.

Please post some scripture that states that we are not required to obey God...
which seems to be what you're saying by arguing with me when I state that we ARE TO OBEY GOD.

Why are you debating this?

 

[GodsGrace]

Biblical "hope" is not wistful and uncertain as is the American English "hope".

Look again at the passage. We know, said the apostle. Do you know that when you see Jesus you will be like Him? Do you know this?

Those who have this hope (expectation based on faith) are those who purify themselves.

Yes. Let's look again.

It even states that we are to PURIFY OURSELVES.
What does that mean to you?

Sounds like some of the purifying is on YOU.
God did HIS part...
now He calls on you to do YOURS.

And yes, our hope is an expectation based on faith.

What faith?
The faith that the OSAS teach
or
the faith that Jesus taught?

So purify yourself and be ready when Jesus comes...
either at the end of the world
or at the end of your life.

Debating with someone about whether or not we are to obey God
does not seem like a way of purifying yourself.

So again, do you know as a fact that you will be like Jesus when you see Him?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Do you know?

Much love!

Do YOU know that if you abandon your faith you will become as lost as you were before
because
SALVATION IS BY FAITH.

No faith.
No salvation.

Do YOU know that Jesus and Pau taught that salvation can be lost?
Do you really need more posts?
I'll be happy to post all of them AGAIN.

 

[GodsGrace]

This makes me think of the parable where Jesus said those that build their houses on His Words are building upon the Rock and those not building their houses on His Words are building on sand and their fall will be disastrous!

Yes...
Matthew 7:24 and 7:26.

The wise man (24) ACTS on the words of Jesus.

The foolish man (26) does NOT act on His words and his home gets swept away.

I've posted this several times.

It seems the simple words of Jesus are not understood.

I'm also reminded of another verse about weighing the cost of following Jesus before you make a decision:


Luke 14:27-30
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'


One must count the cost before starting any endeavor...
all the more to follow Jesus to save our very soul.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It even states that we are to PURIFY OURSELVES.

And this is thru the power of the Holy Spirit!
(they'll claim we're doing this in our own strength and ability apart from the Lord)

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[marks]

WHERE in the NT does it state that we are PERMANENTLY children of God?

In your wording? You'll have to go with what God said. Believe it.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Shall appear, or maybe/might appear? Shall appear.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We know. We know what? We will be like Him.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Each of these passages show that those who are reborn, who are citizens of heaven now, will remain so. John even clarifies that this very knowledge is what causes us to purify ourselves.

Isn't that your objection? That OSAS leads to liscentiousness? The truth is opposite that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It even states that we are to PURIFY OURSELVES.
What does that mean to you?

Even when it's right in front of you!

Everyone who has this hope . . .

Much love!

 

[pandaflower]

You are still at it. You should stop adding sin to sin. If you are trying to convince me you are obedient to God it's not working.

In reality, mere "believing" doesn't cause anything, it all depends on what or who you believe. And even still, your belief doesn't change your life, God changes you in rebirth.

The fact is, knowing that we are permanently the children of God is what causes us to purify ourselves. It's OSAS that is credited with this.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

No comment needed. The passage is exceedingly plain.

Much love!

I think what causes confusion for some who read the Bible,if they do so rather than merely reading snippets at on-line sites, is in considering obedience as what makes salvation conditional.

And therefore disobedience leads to loss of salvation and damnation,again.

Rather than fix on the word,obedience, I find it helps to consider the words that are synonymous. Because they are more accommodating to peace of mind in God's eternal security.

I also don't think it nourishes our hearts as the church,all who are one in Christ,to imply or state outright any one of us is not truly saved because our posted understanding of God's message does not complete with those who criticize it.

We are 100% eternally secure in Christ.

If we are not so,and we believe we can lose what God appointed should we stray or take a misstep, then we are committing what apostle Paul observed.

Paraphrasing his epistle here.
Thinking we have to crucify Christ all over again so to let that repeated sacrifice save us again should we return to faith. And because we first think losing faith,a misstep of any kind,revokes God's grace filled free gift.

Understanding we are eternally secure in Jesus,because the father gave us this precious understanding and rebirth,isn't a false teaching. It is the good news Jesus delivered. And then died so to pay our sin price so that we would never be condemned by our natural born corrupt fallen nature.

We have a new nature as ones redeemed from sin and reborn in the image and likeness of holy Christ.

I feel the undertaking of tying to argue us out of that eternal fixed truth is a waste of precious life's time.

 

[pandaflower]

In your wording? You'll have to go with what God said. Believe it.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Shall appear, or maybe/might appear? Shall appear.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We know. We know what? We will be like Him.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Each of these passages show that those who are reborn, who are citizens of heaven now, will remain so. John even clarifies that this very knowledge is what causes us to purify ourselves.

Isn't that your objection? That OSAS leads to liscentiousness? The truth is opposite that.

Much love!.

Truth.

Those in Christ do not wilfully disobey God's leading us on the righteous path.

I have learned the ideology that insists eternal security in Christ allows us to sin at will is not a teaching sustained by God's message.

 

[marks]

I think what causes confusion for some who read the Bible,if they do so rather than merely reading snippets at on-line sites, is in considering obedience as what makes salvation conditional.

And therefore disobedience leads to loss of salvation and damnation,again.

Rather than fix on the word,obedience, I find it helps to consider the words that are synonymous. Because they are more accommodating to peace of mind in God's eternal security.

I also don't think it nourishes our hearts as the church,all who are one in Christ,to imply or state outright any one of us is not truly saved because our posted understanding of God's message does not complete with those who criticize it.

We are 100% eternally secure in Christ.

If we are not so,and we believe we can lose what God appointed should we stray or take a misstep, then we are committing what apostle Paul observed.

Paraphrasing his epistle here.
Thinking we have to crucify Christ all over again so to let that repeated sacrifice save us again should we return to faith. And because we first think losing faith,a misstep of any kind,revokes God's grace filled free gift.

Understanding we are eternally secure in Jesus,because the father gave us this precious understanding and rebirth,isn't a false teaching. It is the good news Jesus delivered. And then died so to pay our sin price so that we would never be condemned by our natural born corrupt fallen nature.

We have a new nature as ones redeemed from sin and reborn in the image and likeness of holy Christ.

I feel the undertaking of tying to argue us out of that eternal fixed truth is a waste of precious life's time.

To me this disagreement shows a fundamentally different understanding of what "regeneration" means. And I think it shows a much lighter view of sin than I myself hold.

Unless sin is fully dealt with, we are all dead. Jesus had to remove all sin so we could be saved. Sin is just that bad!

Those who claim obedience is required, I don't believe they mean it. I think what they mean is, "obedience, as best as I can", just like all of us. Only, they will say we have to believe complete obedience is required, and I don't believe these ones are actually 100% obedient. So it's hypocracy. Unless someone is actually 100% obedient, but whenever I ask about that they shy away from it. No one seems to want to make that claim.

I think what's happening here is that they excuse their own sins while accusing others. Paul wrote about that, those who go by their conscience excusing themselves while accusing others.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Truth.

Those in Christ do not wilfully disobey God's leading us on the righteous path.

I have learned the ideology that insists eternal security in Christ allows us to sin at will is not a teaching sustained by God's message.

Not at all! God is constantly working in us producing righteousness and holiness in our lives.

Much love!

 

[pandaflower]

Not at all! God is constantly working in us producing righteousness and holiness in our lives.

Much love!

True.
God tells us,those who make a habit of sinning do not know him.

Which is to say, those who think they are Christian while living a corrupt life are very misguided.

Think of all those public figures surrounded by scandal. They're wearing a cross pendent while a drug abuser,a sex trafficker, and so forth.

 

[marks]

True.
God tells us,those who make a habit of sinning do not know him.

Which is to say, those who think they are Christian while living a corrupt life are very misguided.

Think of all those public figures surrounded by scandal. They're wearing a cross pendent while a drug abuser,a sex trafficker, and so forth.

Each of us have our own issues. God knows our hearts, and He know who are His children.

I've come to define "humility" as "being honest with myself about myself", and this produces dependence on God and not myself.

Much love!

 

[Kokyu]

I hope you know that Romans 7:4 is speaking about The Law.....not good works.
We are dead to the Mosaic Law.

This is quite beside my point in offering the verse, which was to demonstrate that the Bible does give "shoulds" to the Christian, which you said that it didn't. In the case of Romans 7:4, the "should" is concerning "bearing fruit to God." As Paul wrote, the Christian should do so.

If the Moral Law is still in effect, we cannot say that a Christian SHOULD obey God.
Why is this difficult to understand??
We do NOT have a choice.
We are REQUIRED to obey God.
When we don't it's a sin, we ask forgiveness, and carry on.

Should means we could choose NOT to obey,,,
sin willfully, and not worry too much because we have a choice.

Now, you may be meaning that God does not FORCE us to obey Him.
IF this is what you mean, then I agree with you.
However, the wording you use is not in keeping with what Jesus taught.

I have no idea why you hold to the thinking that you do in the above quotation. Yes, God's Moral Law is in effect for all, Christian and non-Christian. We all ought to obey it; we should obey it. But Christians don't obey God's Moral Law, as the NT recounts many times. About this sort of Christian, about the Christian who has not obeyed God, it is correct to say that they should have obeyed God. And one ought to say this because God has given the command that they disobeyed. This is not at all a controversial or complex thing to grasp...

When I say that the Christian has a choice about whether or not to obey God, I am not saying that God's Moral Laws are mere suggestions that a Christian can take or leave, as they like. Obviously. I mean only that Christians have free agency that they exercise in every moral or spiritual choice that they face.

In any case, it is doubly peculiar to read your "We do NOT have a choice" statement and then two lines down, read "When we don't, it's a sin, we ask forgiveness, and carry on." Your later statement indicates that a Christian may chose to disobey God and sin in direct contradiction of your earlier statement that they have no choice but to obey God. Well, which is it? If Christians have no choice about obeying God, then they cannot choose to disobey Him which you say that they can do.

Nowhere in anything that I've written in this thread do I ever indicate "should obey God" means "sin willfully and not worry too much" about it. This seems to me a good example of how, in this thread, you have tacked things onto what you read, adding to, and "spinning" what you've read to suit your view. In any case, I have, in this thread, repeatedly written that God does not force or compel His children to obey. Why only now are you tentatively acknowledging this? Shall I go through my past posts to you in this thread and quote the times I've said this very thing to you?

As far as my "wording" goes, nothing I've written is out of keeping with Christ's teachings. The only problem you seem to actually have with my posts is the blinding effect of your doctrinal bias and a practice of assuming and/or imagining what other posters you disagree with mean by what they've written.

 

[ProDeo]

It is not necessary to obey God IN ORDER TO REMAIN SAVED (Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5-7; 2 Ti. 1:9), but obedience is certainly vital to walking well with God.

That's badly formulated.

Why stop after verse 7 ?

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Tit 3:10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

The right obliged order
1. Grace by God through Jesus. Without Grace we are lost. That's essential to understand debating OSAS, let it sink in.
2. Faith. Without Grace and faith we are lost.
3. Repentance -> Saved. Without Grace and faith and repentance we are lost.

4. Fruits | good works | Keeping the faith till death.
. Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
. 2Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith

Without Grace and faith and repentance and Fruits | good works | Keeping the faith till death we are lost.

5. Salvation secure.

On obedience, it is a demand, every born again knows it by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Obedience can be a struggle and sometimes we fail and when we fail we go to the throne of forgiveness and we try to improve.

Hebr 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

 

[pandaflower]

What seems to be misunderstood as I see it is, this idea if we slip in revering God's leading us on the righteous path,obedience,we will lose his saving grace.

This is not true.

Obey constantly or be damned again,is not truth.

We came out of the world of fixation on the flesh and its hunger. It takes time to realize God's guidance in all things.

Before,we trusted ourselves and our appetites. Now we have to learn to let go and let ourself to trust God. Discernment is acquired.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

What seems to be misunderstood as I see it is, this idea if we slip in revering God's leading us on the righteous path,obedience,we will lose his saving grace.

No nobody "slips" in to sin - they chose to turn away from the Lord to do sin.

If they do not confess and forsake their sin (Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9) then they are not forgiven

Those that claim God's grace automatically covers sinful behavior are sadly mistaken

Romans 6:1-2
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.

 

[ProDeo]

We have a HOPE of salvation and will not know we are saved until the end.
Jesus said: Those that endure till the end will be saved.

Matthew 24.13
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

That should be convincing enough.

Paul about himself -

1Cor 9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1Cor 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
1Cor 9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
1Cor 9:26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.
1Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Whoops, does not sound Paul was OSAS.

 

[Kokyu]

That's badly formulated.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think I "formulated" things perfectly well.

Why stop after verse 7 ?

Because the passage I quoted served to ground my point as it was. Why else?

Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Tit 3:10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Is there some particular point you wanted to make by posting this section of Titus 3?

The right obliged order
1. Grace by God through Jesus. Without Grace we are lost. That's essential to understand debating OSAS, let it sink in.
2. Faith. Without Grace and faith we are lost.
3. Repentance -> Saved. Without Grace and faith and repentance we are lost.

4. Fruits | good works | Keeping the faith till death.
. Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
. 2Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith

Without Grace and faith and repentance and Fruits | good works | Keeping the faith till death we are lost.

The "right obliged order"? According to who? I obtain my "obliged order" from God's word, not from you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The gift of God's salvation is obtained:

- By grace.
- Through faith.
- Not of works.


Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:23-26
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Galatians 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And so on. See? We can all quote Scripture.

I would agree that repentance (i.e. changing one's mind) about the Gospel is obviously necessary to trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord. But this change of mind merely puts a person in place to be saved by the Savior. This is true also of faith which just positions a person to be saved but has no salvific power itself. It is the Object of our faith that saves us not our faith, itself.

It is not true, though, that a person's obedience to God saves them. I've already explained why exhaustively in this thread already, so I'm not going to do so again here.

5. Salvation secure.

On obedience, it is a demand, every born again knows it by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Obedience can be a struggle and sometimes we fail and when we fail we go to the throne of forgiveness and we try to improve.

I'm afraid you have a lot of growth spiritually yet to make if this is what you really think. You can't please God. In-and-of yourself you are utterly without capacity to do so.

Apart from God, you are "dead in trespasses and sins" and bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3).
Apart from Christ, you can do NOTHING (Jn. 15:4-5).
Apart from the Holy Spirit, you are "without strength" (Ro. 5:5), carnally-minded and totally unable to please God (Ro. 8:5-8).

The only thing within you with the power to make you pleasing to God is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit. If he does not act to change you, bearing his fruit in your life (Ga. 5:22-23; Phil. 2:13; 2 Co. 3:18), you will never please God because it is only righteousness flowing from the life and work of His own Spirit that pleases Him. All else, all our human striving to please God, is futile and deeply displeasing to Him.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Think carefully about what Paul wrote here.