Is It Possible?

[aspen]

I am wondering if it is possible to be a moral, justified, person in a sanctifying relationship with Christ without being afraid of God's wrath and Hell? Can the Good News of God's love and forgiveness be spread on it's own terms instead of wrapped up in fire and brimestone teaching? I am really interested because I think God's message is pretty wonderful on it's own.

Peace

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I am wondering if it is possible to be a moral, justified, person in a sanctifying relationship with Christ without being afraid of God's wrath and Hell? Can the Good News of God's love and forgiveness be spread on it's own terms instead of wrapped up in fire and brimestone teaching? I am really interested because I think God's message is pretty wonderful on it's own.

Peace

With all due respect, and not to be rude, but, huh? --fear God or hell?

Fire and brimstone? Again, huh?

Now, that last sentence I relate to.
Miss Hepburn

 

[aspen]

With all due respect, and not to be rude, but, huh? --fear God or hell?

Fire and brimstone? Again, huh?

Now, that last sentence I relate to.
Miss Hepburn

Sorry for not being clear. It just seems to me that many Christians spend more time talking about God's wrath and the consequences of not living a redeemed, morally upstanding life, than God's love. It made me think that people might have the idea that we need to be 'scared straight' so to speak. Do we need fear to be moral?

Peace

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Sorry for not being clear. It just seems to me that many Christians spend more time talking about God's wrath and the consequences of not living a redeemed, morally upstanding life, than God's love. It made me think that people might have the idea that we need to be 'scared straight' so to speak. Do we need fear to be moral?

Peace

I don't hang with people into fear - ever... I pivot and walk away - or turn a channel.

No, fear is for the spiritually immature, the beginners on the Path, on their first step towards God, bless their hearts - Love and
personal, intimate realtionship with our Lord automatically renews
our minds and we become "moral", as you say.
Not a word I use.
We become people with a focus - a focus on God and all that means.
Kind, gentle, forgiving, fearless, joyful, powerful, etc. - living for Him, naturally.
We' re ruined for anything of this world once we know the breadth and depth and length and the height of God's Love.
(Staying on topic - which means things that are "immmoral" don't interest us bec of our communion with Him... do we need fear, no.
Children need fear...that's not an insult to children on the Path, btw. We are all where we need to be.)
Miss Hepburn

 

[Rach1370]

Hey! As believes in Christ we need not fear hell, at all! I do believe that Christians talk of it however, because Jesus talked of hell more than anyone else in the bible. Why? Well, I think its specifically for the unbelievers. Just think, if you tell a child not to do something, but preface it with the fact that there will be NO consequences, what on earth is going to be their motivation for obeying?? Jesus is saying: Hell IS real, people who don't love me and receive grace WILL go there. People need to know what the consequence of saying no to Jesus is....they have been warned.
But those safe in His love? Not a problem for us!
Also, the bible talks of "fear of God". In that they don't mean 'be terrified of God'....they are talking of having a massive respect for the creator of the universe, as He deserves!
Hope that helps!
Rach

 

[aspen]

Hey! As believes in Christ we need not fear hell, at all!

Agreed.

I do believe that Christians talk of it however, because Jesus talked of hell more than anyone else in the bible. Why? Well, I think its specifically for the unbelievers. Just think, if you tell a child not to do something, but preface it with the fact that there will be NO consequences, what on earth is going to be their motivation for obeying?? Jesus is saying: Hell IS real, people who don't love me and receive grace WILL go there. People need to know what the consequence of saying no to Jesus is....they have been warned.

I disagree with this idea. I tend to believe that Jesus was warning us of a natural consequence of a hard heart, rather than a punishment. I certainly believe there is a Hell - it is radical individualism; narcissism; insatiable consumerism; slavery to the senses or the mind or the emotions; and living entirely within the external false self - in other words an unjustified, un-sanctified soul. The place where the souls reside is not the scary part - it is the condition of their soul without the work or fellowship of God.

But those safe in His love? Not a problem for us!

True. It shouldn't be a problem for anyone whose heart has been under-construction by the Holy Spirit. As weird as this may sound - we sort of need to be like dogs when they submit to their masters - we need to roll over for a belly rub. If we are sitting in front of God growling and yipping in fear on judgment day, after all the training God has been offering us, we are still going to be loved, but we will be separated from the pack and left in our misery.

Also, the bible talks of "fear of God". In that they don't mean 'be terrified of God'....they are talking of having a massive respect for the creator of the universe, as He deserves!

I tell you the true, I totally fear God, however it is fear that belongs on this side of awe - if that makes sense. I fear God sort of like I fear Mt. Everest on a much smaller scale - I have no control, He is much larger than I can imagine, and I am completely at His mercy, yet He is irresistible.

Hey! As believes in Christ we need not fear hell, at all!

Agreed.

I do believe that Christians talk of it however, because Jesus talked of hell more than anyone else in the bible. Why? Well, I think its specifically for the unbelievers. Just think, if you tell a child not to do something, but preface it with the fact that there will be NO consequences, what on earth is going to be their motivation for obeying?? Jesus is saying: Hell IS real, people who don't love me and receive grace WILL go there. People need to know what the consequence of saying no to Jesus is....they have been warned.

I disagree with this idea. I tend to believe that Jesus was warning us of a natural consequence of a hard heart, rather than a punishment. I certainly believe there is a Hell - it is radical individualism; narcissism; insatiable consumerism; slavery to the senses or the mind or the emotions; and living entirely within the external false self - in other words an unjustified, un-sanctified soul. The place where the souls reside is not the scary part - it is the condition of their soul without the work or fellowship of God.

But those safe in His love? Not a problem for us!

True. It shouldn't be a problem for anyone whose heart has been under-construction by the Holy Spirit. As weird as this may sound - we sort of need to be like dogs when they submit to their masters - we need to roll over for a belly rub. If we are sitting in front of God growling and yipping in fear on judgment day, after all the training God has been offering us, we are still going to be loved, but we will be separated from the pack and left in our misery.

Also, the bible talks of "fear of God". In that they don't mean 'be terrified of God'....they are talking of having a massive respect for the creator of the universe, as He deserves!

I tell you the truth, I totally fear God, however it is fear that belongs on this side of awe - if that makes sense. I fear God sort of like I fear Mt. Everest on a much smaller scale - I have no control, He is much larger than I can imagine, and I am completely at His mercy, yet He is irresistible.

Peace

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Aspen! Its nice talking to you, you make me really think!!

You said:
"I disagree with this idea. I tend to believe that Jesus was warning us of a natural consequence of a hard heart, rather than a punishment. I certainly believe there is a Hell - it is radical individualism; narcissism; insatiable consumerism; slavery to the senses or the mind or the emotions; and living entirely within the external false self - in other words an unjustified, un-sanctified soul. The place where the souls reside is not the scary part - it is the condition of their soul without the work or fellowship of God."

Are you meaning here that you believe that these things unchecked is "hell on earth"? I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but here's what I think:
Hell is a very real and terrifying place. When we die we all go somewhere, we don't cease to exist. Think about it; Jesus died to save us, from what? Sin, which leads to death. Now, we all still die, that is a consequence of living in a fallen world. But after that, if we all went to the same place, what would be the point? Hey, my afterlife home is next door to Hitler! No thanks!! So, Heaven if we receive God's saving grace, or Hell if we reject it.
And while I think the things you talked about above are terrible things that as Christians we must flee from, and true, I believe that as we stand before the Judgment Throne we will have to give an account of the things we have done; I do think the real issue here is one of salvation. Why did Jesus die? For what? To save us from sin, from ourselves, to give us hope to be with God forever. And to fear that slipping into something like narcissism now and then (or any other sin, as all are equal in God's eyes) is to fear that Christ's sacrifice was not strong enough to save us. That is the beautiful thing about what Jesus did! Just as the human race was incapable of keeping the old laws, so we cannot be completely free of sin...we are not strong enough, pure enough. But Jesus is! And He is God; He is Strong, pure and His work on the cross is enough to last a lifetime, every lifetime!
So can a bible believing, Jesus loving Christian fall into hell by sinning? Nope, His work is sufficient!
As far as the horror of hell, it strikes fear into me at times, that those unbelievers that I know and care for will go there...but I draw comfort from this. My God is sovereign, He is wise beyond measure and vastly loving. If He deems it necessary for those who reject Him to go to Hell, then that truly is where they must be.
I know that a lot of Christians find the concept of Hell hard, almost in contradiction of a loving God, but we must remember how infinitely more knowing He is, He truly knows what is best for the worlds 'afterlife'. Also, looking at lost souls just going about their lives, headed somewhere like that....it makes us just a little more 'evangelistic' huh??!!!
Let me know what you think!!
Rach

 

[aspen]

Rach,

I like reading your posts, as well!

I think we agree that Hell is a place people go to after death - although, I think it can start for some people here on Earth. However, I do not believe it is a fire and brimstone existence; instead, Hell is a state of the heart after death. The place is irrelevant - it could be an empty room - outer space, who knows? What we do know is that it is a place that is separated from God. I also agree with C.S. Lewis (the Great Divorce) that people in Hell will be separated from each other by radical individualism, resentment, pride, selfishness, and lack of any good human emotion - it will be a crowded place where everyone is simply an annoying face in the crowd, with only their hatred for God and each other in common. Oh one last characteristic of citizens of Hell is the insatiable feeling of being cheated out everything, including salvation

Peace

 

[Selene]

I am wondering if it is possible to be a moral, justified, person in a sanctifying relationship with Christ without being afraid of God's wrath and Hell? Can the Good News of God's love and forgiveness be spread on it's own terms instead of wrapped up in fire and brimestone teaching? I am really interested because I think God's message is pretty wonderful on it's own.

Peace

There is a time and place when one would need to speak about Hell. In 1993, a priest challenged the Mafia in its stronghold, and he encouraged Sicilians not to resign themselves to deep-rooted evil on an island where organized crime has held sway for centuries. As a result, he was gunned down by the Mafia. When Pope John Paul II went to Sicily, he gave a very strong and emotional speech in Sicily. In his speech, the Pope encouraged the people of Sicily to resist the Mafia, and to the Mafia, he told them that there is a Hell. The Pope demanded that the Mafia convert from their evil ways or suffer the wrath of God.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Rach1370]

Hey guys! I think no one will know what hell exactly is/has/does. I think that most of what we glean from the bible just tells us that we want to avoid it at all cost!
I've been reading some sermons by Spurgeon, and boy, that man does not dance around the topic. I tell you what, if I had heard that or even read it when I was unsaved, I suspect it would scared me right into a church pew!! Perhaps not something you want behind your whole Christian walk, but hey, if it gets you to meet Jesus...!!
Rach

 

[aspen]

.........................................

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Aspen....uuhm, I have to confess that I really didn't understand your last post.
Spurgeon wasn't catholic, he was baptist...they called him the 'prince of preachers'.
Don't think he was burned at the stake either....usual death of old age I think!!
Could you maybe clarify?? Ta!
Rac

 

[Duckybill]

I am wondering if it is possible to be a moral, justified, person in a sanctifying relationship with Christ without being afraid of God's wrath and Hell? Can the Good News of God's love and forgiveness be spread on it's own terms instead of wrapped up in fire and brimestone teaching? I am really interested because I think God's message is pretty wonderful on it's own.

The Bible teaches the fear of God, therefore it is "God's message". I.E. drowning everyone on Earth but 8. That is a warning to everyone.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[jiggyfly]

The Bible teaches the fear of God, therefore it is "God's message". I.E. drowning everyone on Earth but 8. That is a warning to everyone.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

[font="'trebuchet ms"]So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while punishing the wicked right up until the day of judgment. 2Peter 2:9

Context is very important.

[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]
[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]
[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. [/font]So he went and preached to the spirits in prison-- those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood 1Peter 3:18-20

 

[Duckybill]

Mt 7 Narrow is the way, and FEW there be that find it ...

 

[jiggyfly]

Mt 7 Narrow is the way, and FEW there be that find it ...

So then you believe that Jesus came to save only a few?

 

[Duckybill]

So then you believe that Jesus came to save only a few?

He came to save all who would believe and obey, which He said will be a FEW.

 

[jiggyfly]

He came to save all who would believe and obey, which He said will be a FEW.

So you believe that He did not come to save the world?

 

[Duckybill]

So you believe that He did not come to save the world?

He came to save all who surrender to His offer of pardon. The majority do not. No surrender, no salvation.

 

[jiggyfly]

He came to save all who surrender to His offer of pardon. The majority do not. No surrender, no salvation.

What do you call this?
For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.'