Is Jesus the Son of God....truly or metaphorically?

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Catholics or former Catholics here, I'm sure you have been to Eucharistic adoration. And I'm sure you at one point or another saw people fall down on their faces in ADORATION of our Lord in the blessed sacrament. There is a difference between that and simply bowing out of a sign of respect. Bowing is a form of humility. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]The pope goes to confession and is a man like the rest of us. It's his office that deserves respect.[/SIZE]

 

[StanJ]

Catholics or former Catholics here, I'm sure you have been to Eucharistic adoration. And I'm sure you at one point or another saw people fall down on their faces in ADORATION of our Lord in the blessed sacrament. There is a difference between that and simply bowing out of a sign of respect. Bowing is a form of humility.

The pope goes to confession and is a man like the rest of us. It's his office that deserves respect.

I totally agree, that expressing reverance or deference to a person by outward signs, is NOT worshipping that person.
You won't find anyone appear before the Queen of the Commonwealth without the traditional bowing or curtsy.

 

[Barrd]

It certainly doesn't(and shouldn't) use protestant language if that's what you mean.

The Anglicans do not have valid holy orders thanks to the split and them "reforming" themselves.. So yeah, no actual body and blood of the Lord in those churches. Maybe that's why it seemed like a bunch of empty rituals being conducted in the episcopal church. BTW, I was orthodox Anglican but once attended a Episcopal "mass"...and the "pastor" was a female who looked more manly than I did. (it was a very liberal church) Almost threw up as I ran out of the church never to return.

Anyway, as I know you don't believe in the Eucharist, let me just say this to anyone here who is curious....learn about things from their sources, not their enemies(Jack Chick lol). I've been through RCIA and I can tell you it's all about Jesus in there. If some Catholics are derailed it's because they have chosen to not educate themselves. And, BTW, I have met some very worldly protestants as well so this is not something happening exclusively in the Catholic church. Satan is on the prowl in every denomination seeking to destroy.

First of all, I should tell you that I've also been to Catholic Mass...and it felt just as empty to me. Jesus is not in the ritual, He is in our hearts. I'm not sure He even hears prayers out of a book any more, if He ever did...

I don't think I ever said that I don't agree with the Eucharist...that is, if we are talking about the Last Supper as taught in the Bible:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

I don't see anything in there about Him giving them His actual flesh to eat, or His blood to drink. It looks a whole lot as if He were giving them bread and wine.

Now, you will no doubt tell me about these verses from John:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

And I will answer:
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Do you not see that this is a metaphor?

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Definitely a metaphor. Unless you think that, unlike the fathers in the wilderness who ate manna and died, these folks who ate Jesus' flesh and drank His blood are still alive, somewhere? I'd kinda like to talk to someone who is over 2000 years old, myself...

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

What I believe about this is that Jesus is saying that we must take Him into ourselves, if we are to have eternal life. We will die a physical death, just like the fathers who ate manna and are dead. But if we have the Spirit of Christ within us, we will live forever, just as He lives forever.
Jesus is not literally bread, nor are we to literally eat flesh or drink blood. He is "that bread which came down from heaven"...

By the way, I am not only a writer...a hack from Alabama, but you can read some of my stuff on my blog...the link is the last line of my signature...I am also an ordained pastor...of course, in the little house church I belong to, everyone over 18 is an ordained pastor. You may or may not have heard me talk about our little church...we call ourselves "Love Inc." And yes, we are a legal church, and our clergy may do anything any other clergy can do, including marry and bury you.
Well, all except my little dog. He was ordained through one of those web sites, more as a joke than anything else, since he does insist on his presence being noted in every single meeting.

I'm sorry to hear that the sight of a woman pastor made you sick to your stomach.
And yet you can believe that you are eating and drinking actual flesh and blood without a qualm? Ewwww.....the very thought makes my tummy roll...

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

First of all, I should tell you that I've also been to Catholic Mass...and it felt just as empty to me. Jesus is not in the ritual, He is in our hearts. I'm not sure He even hears prayers out of a book any more, if He ever did...

I don't think I ever said that I don't agree with the Eucharist...that is, if we are talking about the Last Supper as taught in the Bible:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

I don't see anything in there about Him giving them His actual flesh to eat, or His blood to drink. It looks a whole lot as if He were giving them bread and wine.

Now, you will no doubt tell me about these verses from John:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

And I will answer:
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Do you not see that this is a metaphor?

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Definitely a metaphor. Unless you think that, unlike the fathers in the wilderness who ate manna and died, these folks who ate Jesus' flesh and drank His blood are still alive, somewhere? I'd kinda like to talk to someone who is over 2000 years old, myself...

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

What I believe about this is that Jesus is saying that we must take Him into ourselves, if we are to have eternal life. We will die a physical death, just like the fathers who ate manna and are dead. But if we have the Spirit of Christ within us, we will live forever, just as He lives forever.
Jesus is not literally bread, nor are we to literally eat flesh or drink blood. He is "that bread which came down from heaven"...

By the way, I am not only a writer...a hack from Alabama, but you can read some of my stuff on my blog...the link is the last line of my signature...I am also an ordained pastor...of course, in the little house church I belong to, everyone over 18 is an ordained pastor. You may or may not have heard me talk about our little church...we call ourselves "Love Inc." And yes, we are a legal church, and our clergy may do anything any other clergy can do, including marry and bury you.
Well, all except my little dog. He was ordained through one of those web sites, more as a joke than anything else, since he does insist on his presence being noted in every single meeting.

I'm sorry to hear that the sight of a woman pastor made you sick to your stomach.
And yet you can believe that you are eating and drinking actual flesh and blood without a qualm? Ewwww.....the very thought makes my tummy roll...

Sorry, the one thing protestants seem to agree on is that catholics are wrong about everything lol. That's why i said I'm sure you don't believe in the Eucharist as a Catholic understanding.

Here is what I love about the scriptures...they are so rich in meaning and you can learn more and more as the years go by. And things can have dual menaings. You can accept Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Saviour, and you can receive Jesus in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity. It's not always either or as fundamentalists seem to believe.

You look at John 6 in context and you notice a few things.. His followers actually walked AWAY in verse 66. And Jesus does not correct them...he does not say, Hey guys, come back it was just a metaphor. He lets them walk away because "this is a hard saying, who can understand it" (Verse 60).

And then when we look at Paul's writing we get a understanding of just how important communion was in the early church.

1 Corinthians 11:28-30New International Version (NIV)
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

I know of no metaphors that kill people, do you? I don't get how protestants read this and do not properly interpret it as God actually being present.

When you were in the Anglican church you probably heard them quote from other early sources like the Didache. And that's good, they should because it gives us a idea of how the early church worshipped and their understanding of the gospel message.

You quoted from John so let's look at a sources from the early church. ST. Ignatius of Antioch who actually knew John:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.​

He might actually have a little insight into what is literal or just to be accepted purely as figurative.

And in the didache we find just how important the Eucharist was to early Christians:

Celebrate the Eucharist as follows: Say over the cup: “we give you thanks, Father, for the holy vine of David, your servant, which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever”.

Over the broken bread say: “we give you thanks, Father, for the life and the knowledge which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. As this broken bread scattered on the mountains was gathered and became one, so too, may your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom. For glory and power are yours through Jesus Christ for ever”.

Do not let anyone eat or drink of your eucharist except those who have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For the statement of the Lord applies here also: Do not give to dogs what is holy.

When you finish the meal, offer thanks in this manner: “We thank you, holy Father, for your name which you enshrined in our hearts. We thank you for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you revealed to us through your servant Jesus. To you be glory for ever. Almighty ruler, you created all things for the sake of your name; you gave men food and drink to enjoy so that they might give you thanks. Now you have favored us through Jesus your servant with spiritual food and drink as well as with eternal life. Above all we thank you because you are mighty. To you be glory for ever.

“Remember, Lord, your Church and deliver her from all evil. Perfect her in your love; and, once she has been sanctified, gather her together from the four winds into the kingdom which you have prepared for her. For power and glory are yours for ever.

“May grace come and this world pass away! Hosanna to the God of David. If anyone is holy, let him come. If anyone is not, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen”.

On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the nations.


This is why you see Catholics going to confession before they receive. Just as early Christians did.


Talk to 5 protestants on a issue like communion and you will probably get a variety of opinions. And I'm not sure how people can examine both the scriptures and church history and not at least come to the conclusion of "consubstantiation" as the Lutherans or Anglicans have. I think Rome standing firm and using the Transubstantiation term scares people away, and they walk away just like Jesus followers did in John 6 verse 66.

God bless you pastor and thanks for the work you do for the kingdom.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

I totally agree, that expressing reverance or deference to a person by outward signs, is NOT worshipping that person.
You won't find anyone appear before the Queen of the Commonwealth without the traditional bowing or curtsy.

Either or is a big problem I have with fundamentalism, Stan. Not everything so black and white as they try to paint it.

I know they are well intended though; God bless them for attempting to defend truth. But hopefully they prayerfully consider some of this stuff so more understanding will be provided.

 

[Barrd]

Sorry, the one thing protestants seem to agree on is that catholics are wrong about everything lol. That's why i said I'm sure you don't believe in the Eucharist as a Catholic understanding.

I don't know as I'd say that you guys are wrong about everything. But you aren't right about everything, either.

Here is what I love about the scriptures...they are so rich in meaning and you can learn more and more as the years go by. And things can have dual menaings. You can accept Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Saviour, and you can receive Jesus in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity. It's not always either or as fundamentalists seem to believe.

I certainly can't argue with that!
(I should tell you that fundies don't like me, either. Ahh, well...you can't please all the people all the time!

You look at John 6 in context and you notice a few things.. His followers actually walked AWAY in verse 66. And Jesus does not correct them...he does not say, Hey guys, come back it was just a metaphor. He lets them walk away because "this is a hard saying, who can understand it" (Verse 60).

They walked away for the same reason my tummy gets nervous at the very thought of eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Nor would Jesus call them back. There was a reason that He used metaphors:

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

I wonder that it hasn't occurred to anyone that if this were literal, Jesus would have to have a body the size of a planet. Either that, or God keeps on creating more flesh and blood so that everyone can have a taste. But then, it wouldn't be literally Jesus' flesh and Jesus' blood, would it?

And then when we look at Paul's writing we get a understanding of just how important communion was in the early church.

No one is denying the importance of the Communion, Spiritus.

I know of no metaphors that kill people, do you? I don't get how protestants read this and do not properly interpret it as God actually being present.

Oh, I can think of a couple. How about "mop up the floor with him" or "war is an argument"?
Fairy tales are full of metaphor...but you don't want your child to actually try to eat the decorations on someone's house, for instance, even if they do look like candy.

Of course, God is present in the Communion. But not as the main course...

When you were in the Anglican church you probably heard them quote from other early sources like the Didache. And that's good, they should because it gives us a idea of how the early church worshipped and their understanding of the gospel message.

I was very young, and my parents weren't particularly devout. What I remember the most is having to have a permanent and dress up in itchy clothes in order to make an appearance for Easter Sunday. Oh, and the music at Christmas. How I do love Handel's Messiah...

You quoted from John so let's look at a sources from the early church. ST. Ignatius of Antioch who actually knew John:

He might actually have a little insight into what is literal or just to be accepted purely as figurative.

And in the didache we find just how important the Eucharist was to early Christians:

Celebrate the Eucharist as follows: Say over the cup: “we give you thanks, Father, for the holy vine of David, your servant, which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever”.

Over the broken bread say: “we give you thanks, Father, for the life and the knowledge which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. As this broken bread scattered on the mountains was gathered and became one, so too, may your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom. For glory and power are yours through Jesus Christ for ever”.

Again, nobody is arguing the importance of the Holy Communion.

Do not let anyone eat or drink of your eucharist except those who have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For the statement of the Lord applies here also: Do not give to dogs what is holy.

When you finish the meal, offer thanks in this manner: “We thank you, holy Father, for your name which you enshrined in our hearts. We thank you for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you revealed to us through your servant Jesus. To you be glory for ever. Almighty ruler, you created all things for the sake of your name; you gave men food and drink to enjoy so that they might give you thanks. Now you have favored us through Jesus your servant with spiritual food and drink as well as with eternal life. Above all we thank you because you are mighty. To you be glory for ever.

“Remember, Lord, your Church and deliver her from all evil. Perfect her in your love; and, once she has been sanctified, gather her together from the four winds into the kingdom which you have prepared for her. For power and glory are yours for ever.

“May grace come and this world pass away! Hosanna to the God of David. If anyone is holy, let him come. If anyone is not, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen”.

On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the nations.

I can agree with all of this

This is why you see Catholics going to confession before they receive. Just as early Christians did.

Oh, dear.
Uh...I have this idea that confessing before a man is not only not necessary...surely Christ can hear my confession...but it also is not a very good idea.
Some may have heard me say this:
Confession is good for the soul...but public confession can be very bad for the reputation...

Talk to 5 protestants on a issue like communion and you will probably get a variety of opinions. And I'm not sure how people can examine both the scriptures and church history and not at least come to the conclusion of "consubstantiation" as the Lutherans or Anglicans have. I think Rome standing firm and using the Transubstantiation term scares people away, and they walk away just like Jesus followers did in John 6 verse 66.

That is why I don't talk to Protestants....or Catholics, either...about these important issues.
I prefer to talk to God about such things...

God bless you pastor and thanks for the work you do for the kingdom.

Thank you for that, Spiritus. Especially since I know very well that you do not believe that a woman ought to be a pastor.

I can tell that you have a deep and beautiful faith, Spiritus...and while I do not agree with everything you believe, I can embrace you as a beloved brother in the Lord. I look forward to having many a deep and fruitful conversation with you in these threads. I believe we can learn from one another, and both of us grow in our faith.

May God rain His blessings down upon you and all your house.
:wub:

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

I don't know as I'd say that you guys are wrong about everything. But you aren't right about everything, either.


I certainly can't argue with that!
(I should tell you that fundies don't like me, either. Ahh, well...you can't please all the people all the time!


They walked away for the same reason my tummy gets nervous at the very thought of eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Nor would Jesus call them back. There was a reason that He used metaphors:

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

I wonder that it hasn't occurred to anyone that if this were literal, Jesus would have to have a body the size of a planet. Either that, or God keeps on creating more flesh and blood so that everyone can have a taste. But then, it wouldn't be literally Jesus' flesh and Jesus' blood, would it?

The church teaches that we are entering into the one time eternal sacrifice of Christ during the mass. Which is how the OT folks could be saved by a event that took place long after their lives occurred. So it's not recreating Himself.

No one is denying the importance of the Communion, Spiritus.


Oh, I can think of a couple. How about "mop up the floor with him" or "war is an argument"?
Fairy tales are full of metaphor...but you don't want your child to actually try to eat the decorations on someone's house, for instance, even if they do look like candy.

Of course, God is present in the Communion. But not as the main course...


I was very young, and my parents weren't particularly devout. What I remember the most is having to have a permanent and dress up in itchy clothes in order to make an appearance for Easter Sunday. Oh, and the music at Christmas. How I do love Handel's Messiah...

Again, nobody is arguing the importance of the Holy Communion.

I can agree with all of this

So you believe in consubstantiation?

Oh, dear.
Uh...I have this idea that confessing before a man is not only not necessary...surely Christ can hear my confession...but it also is not a very good idea.
Some may have heard me say this:
Confession is good for the soul...but public confession can be very bad for the reputation...

That is why I don't talk to Protestants....or Catholics, either...about these important issues.
I prefer to talk to God about such things...


I think going directly to God is good and we should do that (I still do it). But I also think it's easy to remain in your sin or rationalize it that way. Some of my own relatives(protestant Christians) still stay in their sins of drugs and alcohol are a good example of that, unfortunately.

So confessing to a priest who acts in persona Christi... or as a protestant, even to your brothers and sisters in Christ or to a pastor is very beneficial. Bring it to light now as we know Christ said all that is done in darkness will one day all be brought into light.

Do you believe in "once saved always saved"?



Thank you for that, Spiritus. Especially since I know very well that you do not believe that a woman ought to be a pastor.

I can tell that you have a deep and beautiful faith, Spiritus...and while I do not agree with everything you believe, I can embrace you as a beloved brother in the Lord. I look forward to having many a deep and fruitful conversation with you in these threads. I believe we can learn from one another, and both of us grow in our faith.

May God rain His blessings down upon you and all your house.
:wub:

Thank you, barrds. I'm going to check out your site. And you're right, I don't believe that women are supposed to be pastors, BUT we have many women in our faith who are Eucharistic ministers, leaders of important programs such a RCIA and are absolute warriors for the Lord and His kingdom. Someone like yourself who helps people grown in their faith have my utmost respect and admiration.

 

[brakelite]

Having been educated exclusively in Catholic schools, serving as a young lad as an altar boy, having some ambitions when young of being a Marist brother at some time in the distant future, I certainly saw my share of both the god and the bad within Catholicism. The good I saw in lay men and women who loved God to bits, served Him in the community selflessly and tirelessly, and lived fully according to what spiritual light and understanding they had. They we will see in the kingdom of God. The bad; many chain smoking priests who cursed and drank beer, whiskey, etc with as much gusto as the men and women in the street who knew not God, and the next morning celebrated mass with the taint of alcohol and tobacco still on their breath. At the time of course at my young age, I didn't know different, but thought if the priest could do that, then what the harm? When I left school, and the church side of my life became irrelevant, the chain smoking, the cursing, the drinking,and a few other habits harmful to both mind and body became the norm for me also. Until Jesus set me free from all that in my mid twenties. After meeting Jesus personally for the very first time, I of course returned to the familiar church I knew, twice. Jesus wasn't there. Neither in the ritual, nor in the people I met at the time, and most certainly not in the priest who greeted me when I was leaving the church at the end of the service and looked like he was about to throw up when I mentioned I had just met Jesus two weeks before and had therefore just become a Christian. Not only did he clearly have no idea what I was talking about, he didn't care to know either.
This is of course the same in most denominations. Every denomination has its saints, and likewise its hypocrites and worldlings. (Yeah, I know, an old word but I like it). I have never taken anyones word for spiritual truth. What I hear, I investigate. I study, and I use the Bile and the Bible only as my final authority. In my day rowing up as Catholic, we never had Bibles. Catholics in those days were not encouraged to read them, after all, it was only 60 years or so previously that Bibles were completely outlawed by Rome, a forbidden book. And now we have such as V-C-S quoting scripture. My have times changed.
The more I study Catholicism VCS, the more I dislike it. Things I never suspected as a youth, now horrifies me. Things I was never taught as a Catholic, now fills me with fear and dread for the future of mankind under a prophetic authority of church/state under the aegis of the Pope of Rome.
I do not take my view of Rome lightly, nor do I rely on such as Jack Chick for my authority and adviser. But I do read history. And what I see taking place in the world today fills me with forboding for Protestantism as it is now being swept into Rome's clutches once again through ecumenism and a much greater tolerance in others who view Catholicism as a Christian system, which I will protest against till I die, or till Jesus comes. Yes, there are Christians in the Catholic church, and you VCS it seems to me may very well be one of them because of your very conciliatory attitude, but they are so despite, and not because of, their church. The call to come out of Babylon in Revelation 18 is for the genuine people of God who remain inside that system, people such as yourself VCS.

 

[Barrd]

The church teaches that we are entering into the one time eternal sacrifice of Christ during the mass. Which is how the OT folks could be saved by a event that took place long after their lives occurred. So it's not recreating Himself.

So how many millions of penitents, do you think, have been fed from that precious Body and Blood, then, Spiritus? The reality is that there is not enough flesh or blood in one body. It's all very well to say that "we are entering into the one time eternal sacrifice of Christ"...that is what I believe as well. But where does all of this flesh and blood come from?

So you believe in consubstantiation?

Spiritus, I'm not even sure what that means.
What I believe is that Jesus is present, in His Spirit. Not flesh and blood, but Love and Mercy.

I think going directly to God is good and we should do that (I still do it). But I also think it's easy to remain in your sin or rationalize it that way. Some of my own relatives(protestant Christians) still stay in their sins of drugs and alcohol are a good example of that, unfortunately.

I am so sorry to hear that, Spiritus. So, your idea is that they need someone...how do I put this...someone to be responsible for them? Someone they must answer to?
But if that is true, then is their repentance actually real? So, they clean up their act...for the priest. They have the praise of men.
But is God impressed?

So confessing to a priest who acts in persona Christi... or as a protestant, even to your brothers and sisters in Christ or to a pastor is very beneficial. Bring it to light now as we know Christ said all that is done in darkness will one day all be brought into light.

See, there's one of those pesky doctrines that you and I disagree on.
Believing that Jesus Christ is still alive and well, and handling His business, I do not see a need for anyone to act "in persona Christ."
I do believe that, if I have sinned against, for instance, my brother Spiritus, then I need to go to Spiritus and confess my sin, whatever it was, and, if possible, seek to make amends. And, of course, I need to confess my sins to Jesus Christ. Only He can forgive me...the priest or the pastor or whatever has no power to do that.

Do you believe in "once saved always saved"?

You obviously have not been here for very long.
No, Spiritus, I do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

(As many osasers on this board would, no doubt, tell you, in rather unflattering terms.)

Thank you, barrds. I'm going to check out your site. And you're right, I don't believe that women are supposed to be pastors, BUT we have many women in our faith who are Eucharistic ministers, leaders of important programs such a RCIA and are absolute warriors for the Lord and His kingdom. Someone like yourself who helps people grown in their faith have my utmost respect and admiration.

Your words are precious music to my ears, Spiritus. Women as Eucharistic ministers? I had no idea. I had

And I thank you for checking out my site. You can find my blog here:

http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/138-the-barrds-quill/

What you will find are a few of my poems, and a few excerpts from my magnum opus, 'The First Sinner'.

Please, if you would, let me know what you think of what you read. I would be greatly in your debt.

 

[Barrd]

Having been educated exclusively in Catholic schools, serving as a young lad as an altar boy, having some ambitions when young of being a Marist brother at some time in the distant future, I certainly saw my share of both the god and the bad within Catholicism. The good I saw in lay men and women who loved God to bits, served Him in the community selflessly and tirelessly, and lived fully according to what spiritual light and understanding they had. They we will see in the kingdom of God. The bad; many chain smoking priests who cursed and drank beer, whiskey, etc with as much gusto as the men and women in the street who knew not God, and the next morning celebrated mass with the taint of alcohol and tobacco still on their breath. At the time of course at my young age, I didn't know different, but thought if the priest could do that, then what the harm? When I left school, and the church side of my life became irrelevant, the chain smoking, the cursing, the drinking,and a few other habits harmful to both mind and body became the norm for me also. Until Jesus set me free from all that in my mid twenties. After meeting Jesus personally for the very first time, I of course returned to the familiar church I knew, twice. Jesus wasn't there. Neither in the ritual, nor in the people I met at the time, and most certainly not in the priest who greeted me when I was leaving the church at the end of the service and looked like he was about to throw up when I mentioned I had just met Jesus two weeks before and had therefore just become a Christian. Not only did he clearly have no idea what I was talking about, he didn't care to know either.
This is of course the same in most denominations. Every denomination has its saints, and likewise its hypocrites and worldlings. (Yeah, I know, an old word but I like it). I have never taken anyones word for spiritual truth. What I hear, I investigate. I study, and I use the Bile and the Bible only as my final authority. In my day rowing up as Catholic, we never had Bibles. Catholics in those days were not encouraged to read them, after all, it was only 60 years or so previously that Bibles were completely outlawed by Rome, a forbidden book. And now we have such as V-C-S quoting scripture. My have times changed.
The more I study Catholicism VCS, the more I dislike it. Things I never suspected as a youth, now horrifies me. Things I was never taught as a Catholic, now fills me with fear and dread for the future of mankind under a prophetic authority of church/state under the aegis of the Pope of Rome.
I do not take my view of Rome lightly, nor do I rely on such as Jack Chick for my authority and adviser. But I do read history. And what I see taking place in the world today fills me with forboding for Protestantism as it is now being swept into Rome's clutches once again through ecumenism and a much greater tolerance in others who view Catholicism as a Christian system, which I will protest against till I die, or till Jesus comes. Yes, there are Christians in the Catholic church, and you VCS it seems to me may very well be one of them because of your very conciliatory attitude, but they are so despite, and not because of, their church. The call to come out of Babylon in Revelation 18 is for the genuine people of God who remain inside that system, people such as yourself VCS.

Brakelite, as you know, you and I are in agreement on much of what we believe about the Catholic church.
But I honestly do believe that Spiritus is truly a Christian with a deep and devout love for the Lord, Jesus Christ.
I think we may put down our swords...but not our shields...and embrace him as our brother.
It is my prayer, as I believe it is yours, that genuine people of God, like our brother, Spiritus, will hear and heed God's call.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

So how many millions of penitents, do you think, have been fed from that precious Body and Blood, then, Spiritus? The reality is that there is not enough flesh or blood in one body. It's all very well to say that "we are entering into the one time eternal sacrifice of Christ"...that is what I believe as well. But where does all of this flesh and blood come from?

Why limit a omnipotent God with our finite understanding? Do you really understand the Trinity? Does anyone? That's why we call it a mystery of faith.


Spiritus, I'm not even sure what that means.
What I believe is that Jesus is present, in His Spirit. Not flesh and blood, but Love and Mercy.

If you believe what you just said, then you believe in consubstantiation.


I am so sorry to hear that, Spiritus. So, your idea is that they need someone...how do I put this...someone to be responsible for them? Someone they must answer to?
But if that is true, then is their repentance actually real? So, they clean up their act...for the priest. They have the praise of men.
But is God impressed? See, there's one of those pesky doctrines that you and I disagree on.
Believing that Jesus Christ is still alive and well, and handling His business, I do not see a need for anyone to act "in persona Christ."
I do believe that, if I have sinned against, for instance, my brother Spiritus, then I need to go to Spiritus and confess my sin, whatever it was, and, if possible, seek to make amends. And, of course, I need to confess my sins to Jesus Christ. Only He can forgive me...the priest or the pastor or whatever has no power to do that.

Of course God is handling his business at all times. but he established a church...a visible church (Matthew 18:15-18) to do it's job and you can't separate the two. (Acts 9:4) Why would Jesus give his apostles the authority to forgive or retain sins unless people were supposed to be confessing them? (John 20:23) Things in the NT were written for NT Christians and stuff like confession were presupposed because they were already doing it. Actually, initially they were confessing in front of the ENTIRE congregation. That stopped and private confession came into play only because non-Christians were coming to church to get dirt on Christians.

Even as a protestant I had occasions where i talked to the pastor, privately, about sinning. This is one of those topics that I have never understood the major protestant objection to. You said it yourself, confession is good for the soul.

You obviously have not been here for very long.
No, Spiritus, I do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

My post count should make that quite evident lol. But I'm glad you don't believe that stuff. OSAS is a terrible and destructive doctrine, IMO. Anyway, protestants have a variety of opinions about things so I have to ask each one so I can understand their position.


Your words are precious music to my ears, Spiritus. Women as Eucharistic ministers? I had no idea. I had

And I thank you for checking out my site. You can find my blog here:

http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/138-the-barrds-quill/

What you will find are a few of my poems, and a few excerpts from my magnum opus, 'The First Sinner'.

Please, if you would, let me know what you think of what you read. I would be greatly in your debt.

I'll check it out.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Having been educated exclusively in Catholic schools, serving as a young lad as an altar boy, having some ambitions when young of being a Marist brother at some time in the distant future, I certainly saw my share of both the god and the bad within Catholicism. The good I saw in lay men and women who loved God to bits, served Him in the community selflessly and tirelessly, and lived fully according to what spiritual light and understanding they had. They we will see in the kingdom of God. The bad; many chain smoking priests who cursed and drank beer, whiskey, etc with as much gusto as the men and women in the street who knew not God, and the next morning celebrated mass with the taint of alcohol and tobacco still on their breath. At the time of course at my young age, I didn't know different, but thought if the priest could do that, then what the harm? When I left school, and the church side of my life became irrelevant, the chain smoking, the cursing, the drinking,and a few other habits harmful to both mind and body became the norm for me also. Until Jesus set me free from all that in my mid twenties. After meeting Jesus personally for the very first time, I of course returned to the familiar church I knew, twice. Jesus wasn't there. Neither in the ritual, nor in the people I met at the time, and most certainly not in the priest who greeted me when I was leaving the church at the end of the service and looked like he was about to throw up when I mentioned I had just met Jesus two weeks before and had therefore just become a Christian. Not only did he clearly have no idea what I was talking about, he didn't care to know either.
This is of course the same in most denominations. Every denomination has its saints, and likewise its hypocrites and worldlings. (Yeah, I know, an old word but I like it). I have never taken anyones word for spiritual truth. What I hear, I investigate. I study, and I use the Bile and the Bible only as my final authority. In my day rowing up as Catholic, we never had Bibles. Catholics in those days were not encouraged to read them, after all, it was only 60 years or so previously that Bibles were completely outlawed by Rome, a forbidden book. And now we have such as V-C-S quoting scripture. My have times changed.
The more I study Catholicism VCS, the more I dislike it. Things I never suspected as a youth, now horrifies me. Things I was never taught as a Catholic, now fills me with fear and dread for the future of mankind under a prophetic authority of church/state under the aegis of the Pope of Rome.
I do not take my view of Rome lightly, nor do I rely on such as Jack Chick for my authority and adviser. But I do read history. And what I see taking place in the world today fills me with forboding for Protestantism as it is now being swept into Rome's clutches once again through ecumenism and a much greater tolerance in others who view Catholicism as a Christian system, which I will protest against till I die, or till Jesus comes. Yes, there are Christians in the Catholic church, and you VCS it seems to me may very well be one of them because of your very conciliatory attitude, but they are so despite, and not because of, their church. The call to come out of Babylon in Revelation 18 is for the genuine people of God who remain inside that system, people such as yourself VCS.

I think, as someone who has been on both sides, there are unregenerate Christians all over the place of every denomination. The Catholic church has it's problems as well. But we also have a promise from Jesus Christ so we will be fine. (Matthew 16:18) If the church starts teaching that Mary is part of the Trinity then you call me on that and I'll be checking out of Rome and starting my own denomination lol

I didn't come here to bash the protestant churches as they are good and beneficial and bear good fruit. You know I once volunteered at a Christian ministry in town...and we fed and clothed the needy...and it was people of all shapes and sizes...Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. And everybody worked together in Christian harmony and nobody argued doctrine or threatened to burn each other at the stake. This, I felt, was a answer to Jesus prayer for unity in John 17:20-23 . But in the rest of the world, a majority of the time everybody is arguing doctrine and splitting up. Last count was like 35,000 denominations. This is a horrible stain on Christendom and most protestants I converse with agree with me on it, even if it's a reluctant agreement. They probably wont admit it at a baptist convention, but get them alone over coffee and they speak the truth about it. It's ugly.

Besides the division in the protestant side, I also cant believe how immorality has crept in and seems to be taking over every single major denomination. You know, a 100 years ago...even 70 years ago nobody was using birth control. Now every denomination has given that it's rubber stamp of approval. They also approve divorce, which Jesus forbade. And of course homosexuals are pretty much taking over all the denominations except maybe the Baptists. But it all started with pride which led to birth control. You start separating the pro-creative aspect of sexual union and making it all about pleasure and convenience, then it becomes not much different than two homosexuals having sex.

As a Catholic I respectfully believe these problems are occurring because you have separated yourself from your roots and have no visible shepherd on earth. So the truth continues to be compromised and decided upon by a democratic vote. Seems as if outside the Catholic church, there are no real moral absolutes any longer.

I have other issues with the protestant side but didn't come here to sling mud so I'll stop there. I just hope protestants understand the plank in their own eyes are quite visible to the rest of us. We are all adults and pretty well grounded in our faith and not likely anybody is changing their minds. But I wish everybody could act civil. This site, for what it's worth, isn't as bad as CARM or some of the others I have seen. So that's encouraging.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/138-the-barrds-quill/

What you will find are a few of my poems, and a few excerpts from my magnum opus, 'The First Sinner'.

Please, if you would, let me know what you think of what you read. I would be greatly in your debt.

I just checked it out, you are very well read!. I rated "the virgin's child" 5 stars. Very nice work.

 

[brakelite]

Here I have copy/pasted a short essay from a facebook page on the very topic of this thread, and it encapsulates my thoughts on the subject quite well.

Is our Heavenly Father, His Son and His Spirit Literal or metaphorical ?
A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding. And this is what has happen when we look at the teaching of the Trinity, because we can only look at it one way, metaphorically. Because according to the belief in the Trinity, the Father does not mean a real Father, the Son does not mean a real Son, and the Spirit does not mean a real Spirit. Because if the persons of the Godhead or Trinity are completely the same, eternal, omnipresent etc. Making up the biblical one God than there cannot be literally a Father or Son or Holy Spirit because they are one God that have taken on roles.
But what does the Bible tell us? If we make a literal reading of God’s Word then we receive a very different understanding. A simple comparison of the literal vs spiritualize, metaphorical understanding of each of the persons of the Godhead show how the changing of understanding works. If we read the Bible literally, this is what we find.
A literal Father, the Father is really a Father and if He is a Father than He must be a Father of someone. Moreover, He must be a real Father of someone like Him. From the Bible we know that God Himself is this Father. God the Father, it’s simple. [John 10:30; 14:11; 10:15; 20:17, 2 Cor 1:3-4]
A literal Son, the Son really is a Son, therefore He needs to be the Son of someone. And moreover, He has to have the same nature as the one He came from, so He needs to have a literal Father and because God Himself is His Father than He is a Son of God having the same nature by inheritance as His Father, it is that simple. [John 3:35; 17:1, 1 John 5:12, Acts 7:5-6, Matt 11:27; Heb 1]
A literal Spirit, the Spirit really is a Spirit. Because the Spirit itself is always attached to a personal being, the Spirit must be a Spirit of someone. From the Bible we know that the Holy Spirit is used interchangeably with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, therefore it must mean what it says. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of Christ. Their mutual Spirit, its simple [1 John 4:13, Rom 8:9, 1 Cor 3:16, 1 Pet 1:11, Eph 3:16-17] Less simple maybe the understanding of what the Spirit itself is but if it something belonging to a personal being and carrying character traits of that person, it must be something personal, not just an impersonal force, not just a personal being in its own right but a Spirit which may give you love, joy and other things.
So summing up, we have God Himself, a real Father of His Son. He was like Him and both have the same one Spirit. The terms Father and Son were met literally indicate a very close and intimate relationship. Therefore the Son must be the most precious person for God in the whole universe. And if God sent His real Son to earth for sinners, for you and I, He could not have given more. This is the literal understanding.
Now let move on to the metaphorical or spiritualize understanding which is very interesting.
A metaphorical Father, the Father is not really a Father of someone; He only plays the role of the Father. Therefore, if He is not the real Father of someone like Him, He cannot be a real Father to someone like us. If He only role plays the Father of someone like Him, He likewise role plays a Father to us. This God can only be a real creator but not a real Father.
A metaphorical Son, the Son is not really the Son of someone and He only plays the role of the Son. Therefore, if He is not really the Son of someone like Him, He cannot be our real example as the Son of God. Therefore the relationship between the Father and the Son is not genuine because it is a metaphor and leaves us mystify.
A metaphorical Spirit, the Spirit is not really the Spirit of someone. He only plays the role of the Spirit but in reality, He is a divine personal being like the suppose Father and Son, therefore, He cannot be the real Spirit of the Father and of the Son. He may be still call the Spirit of God and of Christ metaphorically like God, His Son and Spirit in oneness, but He cannot be really the Spirit of the Father and the Son to us.
So if the Godhead is metaphorical than God did not really sacrifice His Son because all three are just role playing and the whole Bible becomes a lie and worthless because I’ve shown here the metaphorical understanding of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit is stripping away all the genuine meaning of those terms and also of their notion. The Father is not really the Father of His Son. The Son is not really the Son of His Father, and the Spirit is not really the Spirit of them both. All that is now is left are the quite technical terms of the First, second and of the third persons of the Godhead or Trinity, doubt and confusion.
I am really grateful to God and His Son that they have revealed to us through their word who they truly are and how we should worship them. And that anyone can search the scriptures and see for themselves this wonderful truth. We do not need higher theology in attempt to understand them.

 

[Barrd]

Why limit a omnipotent God with our finite understanding? Do you really understand the Trinity? Does anyone? That's why we call it a mystery of faith.

I will tell you what I have told countless others.
Right now, I am much too busy trying to explain Quantum Physics to my best friend...my Raggedy Andy, who is an adorable little one eyed Shih Tzu dog.
Now, Rags is a very smart dog...
But I suspect it may take some time...

As soon as I am through, I will come back here and explain the nature of God for you.

If you believe what you just said, then you believe in consubstantiation.

Well, then, I guess we have our answer.
I believe in con- consub--- uh, consubstan---

Yeah, what you said. :unsure:

Of course God is handling his business at all times. but he established a church...a visible church (Matthew 18:15-18) to do it's job and you can't separate the two. (Acts 9:4) Why would Jesus give his apostles the authority to forgive or retain sins unless people were supposed to be confessing them? (John 20:23) Things in the NT were written for NT Christians and stuff like confession were presupposed because they were already doing it. Actually, initially they were confessing in front of the ENTIRE congregation. That stopped and private confession came into play only because non-Christians were coming to church to get dirt on Christians.

Before I would consider confessing my sins to anyone other than Christ, I'd have to know and trust that man.
Let me whisper a little secret in your ear. Priests are human, too. And they do gossip.
Now, I don't really have any real juicy sins to confess right now...but if I did, I would not want them to become table talk for the Priest's "inner circle" of friends. :huh:
I can fully believe that people would come to the church to get dirt on Christians. And I can fully believe that they got plenty of it, too.

Here's a question for you. When the priest sins (and don't you think he doesn't, he's a man, not an angel), who does he confess to? :unsure:

Even as a protestant I had occasions where i talked to the pastor, privately, about sinning. This is one of those topics that I have never understood the major protestant objection to. You said it yourself, confession is good for the soul.

Yes.
Confession is good for the soul. One should unburden oneself of all their petty little sins every day...take them to Jesus. No use trying to hide them from Him, He knows all about them already.
But public confession...by which I mean confession in front of a person or persons...can be very bad for the reputation. Would you want other people to know every petty thought that ever goes through your mind?
Hmm...you didn't tell us if you are male or female, or how old you are...let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are a man (if you are a woman, I apologize). You see a lovely young girl. The thought flashes through your brain "That girl is HOT! Boy, would I like to get cozy with her!"
Are you going to confess this sin? If you walked away and forgot all about her, was it even a sin? Or are you the kind of guy who would follow her into the store (she's shopping), and maybe even look for an opportunity to talk to her? :huh:
That's just one example of the petty thoughts that go through our minds.

My post count should make that quite evident lol. But I'm glad you don't believe that stuff. OSAS is a terrible and destructive doctrine, IMO. Anyway, protestants have a variety of opinions about things so I have to ask each one so I can understand their position.

Ha! You are right. You're a brand new baby around here.
Well, welcome to the site, Spiritus! I am so very glad you decided to join our little group.

And don't you believe everything you hear about me. I'm really a very sweet li'l ol' lady. I even bake chocolate chip cookies. Honest!

I'll check it out.

Thank you! :wub:

 

[Barrd]

I just checked it out, you are very well read!. I rated "the virgin's child" 5 stars. Very nice work.

Five stars! High praise, indeed. I am deeply flattered, Spiritus. Thank you very much.

Everyone who has ever read it loves that one.
This Christmas just past I could not fill all the requests I got from different churches wanting me to come and read it for them.
I do think it is some of my very best work.


I thought that as a Catholic, you might like The Saint's Prayer, or Your Servant, Lord. They just feel more "Catholic-y" to me. But maybe I'm wrong.

What I was really hoping for was your opinion on this piece:

http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/138/entry-805-excerpt-from-the-first-sinner-simon-of-cyrene/

As I told you, I am a hack from Alabama. For a long time, I kept my work private, sharing only with family and friends.

And then came The First Sinner. And I knew I had to publish.
Now, the very first thing that I discovered is that it is all but impossible for someone like me to break into the mysterious world of published authors. You need an agent. Finding an agent who is taking new Christian writers...well, I'd have better luck looking for mermaids in the kids' wading pool....
So, I "self-published" with Amazon's Create-Space.

http://www.amazon.com/Deborah-Anne-Barrd/e/B00VQK3DNO

Another user has shown me another option, and I'm hoping that maybe The First Sinner might actually make it into the book stores by the end of the year...

Pray for me?

 

[StanJ]

Here I have copy/pasted a short essay from a facebook page on the very topic of this thread, and it encapsulates my thoughts on the subject quite well.

Is our Heavenly Father, His Son and His Spirit Literal or metaphorical ?
A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding. And this is what has happen when we look at the teaching of the Trinity, because we can only look at it one way, metaphorically. Because according to the belief in the Trinity, the Father does not mean a real Father, the Son does not mean a real Son, and the Spirit does not mean a real Spirit. Because if the persons of the Godhead or Trinity are completely the same, eternal, omnipresent etc. Making up the biblical one God than there cannot be literally a Father or Son or Holy Spirit because they are one God that have taken on roles.
But what does the Bible tell us? If we make a literal reading of God’s Word then we receive a very different understanding. A simple comparison of the literal vs spiritualize, metaphorical understanding of each of the persons of the Godhead show how the changing of understanding works. If we read the Bible literally, this is what we find.
A literal Father, the Father is really a Father and if He is a Father than He must be a Father of someone. Moreover, He must be a real Father of someone like Him. From the Bible we know that God Himself is this Father. God the Father, it’s simple. [John 10:30; 14:11; 10:15; 20:17, 2 Cor 1:3-4]
A literal Son, the Son really is a Son, therefore He needs to be the Son of someone. And moreover, He has to have the same nature as the one He came from, so He needs to have a literal Father and because God Himself is His Father than He is a Son of God having the same nature by inheritance as His Father, it is that simple. [John 3:35; 17:1, 1 John 5:12, Acts 7:5-6, Matt 11:27; Heb 1]
A literal Spirit, the Spirit really is a Spirit. Because the Spirit itself is always attached to a personal being, the Spirit must be a Spirit of someone. From the Bible we know that the Holy Spirit is used interchangeably with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, therefore it must mean what it says. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of Christ. Their mutual Spirit, its simple [1 John 4:13, Rom 8:9, 1 Cor 3:16, 1 Pet 1:11, Eph 3:16-17] Less simple maybe the understanding of what the Spirit itself is but if it something belonging to a personal being and carrying character traits of that person, it must be something personal, not just an impersonal force, not just a personal being in its own right but a Spirit which may give you love, joy and other things.
So summing up, we have God Himself, a real Father of His Son. He was like Him and both have the same one Spirit. The terms Father and Son were met literally indicate a very close and intimate relationship. Therefore the Son must be the most precious person for God in the whole universe. And if God sent His real Son to earth for sinners, for you and I, He could not have given more. This is the literal understanding.
Now let move on to the metaphorical or spiritualize understanding which is very interesting.
A metaphorical Father, the Father is not really a Father of someone; He only plays the role of the Father. Therefore, if He is not the real Father of someone like Him, He cannot be a real Father to someone like us. If He only role plays the Father of someone like Him, He likewise role plays a Father to us. This God can only be a real creator but not a real Father.
A metaphorical Son, the Son is not really the Son of someone and He only plays the role of the Son. Therefore, if He is not really the Son of someone like Him, He cannot be our real example as the Son of God. Therefore the relationship between the Father and the Son is not genuine because it is a metaphor and leaves us mystify.
A metaphorical Spirit, the Spirit is not really the Spirit of someone. He only plays the role of the Spirit but in reality, He is a divine personal being like the suppose Father and Son, therefore, He cannot be the real Spirit of the Father and of the Son. He may be still call the Spirit of God and of Christ metaphorically like God, His Son and Spirit in oneness, but He cannot be really the Spirit of the Father and the Son to us.
So if the Godhead is metaphorical than God did not really sacrifice His Son because all three are just role playing and the whole Bible becomes a lie and worthless because I’ve shown here the metaphorical understanding of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit is stripping away all the genuine meaning of those terms and also of their notion. The Father is not really the Father of His Son. The Son is not really the Son of His Father, and the Spirit is not really the Spirit of them both. All that is now is left are the quite technical terms of the First, second and of the third persons of the Godhead or Trinity, doubt and confusion.
I am really grateful to God and His Son that they have revealed to us through their word who they truly are and how we should worship them. And that anyone can search the scriptures and see for themselves this wonderful truth. We do not need higher theology in attempt to understand them.

Nope....didn't clarify a thing, and why is it you yourself can't articulate your own understanding?
I also wonder why you can't explain Is 9:6, or for that matter John 14:16 or Matt 1:20? They all put this into a very clear perspective that you seem bound and determined to not believe? It's time to get down to brass tacks brakelite and stop all your equivocating.

 

[brakelite]

Five stars! High praise, indeed. I am deeply flattered, Spiritus. Thank you very much.

Everyone who has ever read it loves that one.
This Christmas just past I could not fill all the requests I got from different churches wanting me to come and read it for them.
I do think it is some of my very best work.


I thought that as a Catholic, you might like The Saint's Prayer, or Your Servant, Lord. They just feel more "Catholic-y" to me. But maybe I'm wrong.

What I was really hoping for was your opinion on this piece:

http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/138/entry-805-excerpt-from-the-first-sinner-simon-of-cyrene/

As I told you, I am a hack from Alabama. For a long time, I kept my work private, sharing only with family and friends.

And then came The First Sinner. And I knew I had to publish.
Now, the very first thing that I discovered is that it is all but impossible for someone like me to break into the mysterious world of published authors. You need an agent. Finding an agent who is taking new Christian writers...well, I'd have better luck looking for mermaids in the kids' wading pool....
So, I "self-published" with Amazon's Create-Space.

http://www.amazon.com/Deborah-Anne-Barrd/e/B00VQK3DNO

Another user has shown me another option, and I'm hoping that maybe The First Sinner might actually make it into the book stores by the end of the year...

Pray for me?

I always enjoy reading an imaginative perspective on Bible stories. The Bible has but the bare bones of the life of Jesus...so much more than what we read went on in peoples lives as they met Him. Here is one of my own....https://brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/heavens-point-of-view/

 

[Barrd]

I always enjoy reading an imaginative perspective on Bible stories. The Bible has but the bare bones of the life of Jesus...so much more than what we read went on in peoples lives as they met Him. Here is one of my own....https://brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/heavens-point-of-view/

Oh, wow, Brakelite! That is an amazing bit of writing!
You made me cry, you caught my heart as you wove your tale.
Beautifully done, my friend!

Write on, Author!

 

[Barrd]

I always enjoy reading an imaginative perspective on Bible stories. The Bible has but the bare bones of the life of Jesus...so much more than what we read went on in peoples lives as they met Him. Here is one of my own....https://brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/heavens-point-of-view/

Oh, wow, Brakelite! That is an amazing bit of writing!
You made me cry, you caught my heart as you wove your tale.
Beautifully done, my friend!