The Barrd said:I will tell you what I have told countless others.
Right now, I am much too busy trying to explain Quantum Physics to my best friend...my Raggedy Andy, who is an adorable little one eyed Shih Tzu dog.
Now, Rags is a very smart dog...
But I suspect it may take some time...
As soon as I am through, I will come back here and explain the nature of God for you.
Well, then, I guess we have our answer.
I believe in con- consub--- uh, consubstan---
Yeah, what you said. :unsure:
Before I would consider confessing my sins to anyone other than Christ, I'd have to know and trust that man.
Let me whisper a little secret in your ear. Priests are human, too. And they do gossip.
Now, I don't really have any real juicy sins to confess right now...but if I did, I would not want them to become table talk for the Priest's "inner circle" of friends. :huh:
I can fully believe that people would come to the church to get dirt on Christians. And I can fully believe that they got plenty of it, too.
Here's a question for you. When the priest sins (and don't you think he doesn't, he's a man, not an angel), who does he confess to? :unsure:
Priests go to confession as well. The Pope goes to confession. Any validly ordained priest can hear confessions. They are all very much human and make mistakes like the rest of us.
Yes.
Confession is good for the soul. One should unburden oneself of all their petty little sins every day...take them to Jesus. No use trying to hide them from Him, He knows all about them already.
But public confession...by which I mean confession in front of a person or persons...can be very bad for the reputation. Would you want other people to know every petty thought that ever goes through your mind?
Hmm...you didn't tell us if you are male or female, or how old you are...let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are a man (if you are a woman, I apologize). You see a lovely young girl. The thought flashes through your brain "That girl is HOT! Boy, would I like to get cozy with her!"
Are you going to confess this sin? If you walked away and forgot all about her, was it even a sin? Or are you the kind of guy who would follow her into the store (she's shopping), and maybe even look for an opportunity to talk to her? :huh:
That's just one example of the petty thoughts that go through our minds.
That's a venial sin and we don't necessarily need to confess the small stuff to a priest, it's done in general confession during the Mass every Sunday. But yes, I would have no problem confessing it, especially if I know it's becoming a problem.. Anyhow, I understand the point you are trying to make. But I would pose this question to you and everyone else...what happened to trusting in God? You can't separate Jesus from His church. Acts 9:4. And it's the CHURCH that is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15. If you say you don't trust the church, that is tantamount to saying you don't trust in the Lord either. Protestants do not believe in a visible church so they do not really accept that scripture of it being the pillar and bulwark of the truth. My personal opinion is they think the bible and their interpretation of it is the real pillar and bulwark of the truth.
And I'm a dude, not old yet but getting there, unfortunately lol.
Ha! You are right. You're a brand new baby around here.
Well, welcome to the site, Spiritus! I am so very glad you decided to join our little group.
And don't you believe everything you hear about me. I'm really a very sweet li'l ol' lady. I even bake chocolate chip cookies. Honest!
Thank you! :wub:
Excellent and thanks for the explanation.! This world is a rough place and I understand why people have their guard up all the time and can come across as abrasive. I'm more guilty of that than anyone
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I actually read them all as I was off yesterday and had a lot of time and really enjoyed them. The Simon of Cyrene one is very intimate. Makes you think of a born again type experience when you meet Jesus and see His love and compassion for mankind, you cant help to examine your own ways and want to make a change. Same thing, I think, with the thief of the cross. He had, what we call in the Catholic faith "perfect contrition", he wasn't just fearing God. He was very sorrowful for his sins because he was in the presence of pure holiness in Jesus Christ.The Barrd said:
Yes of course, let us pray for each other. If I ever pass through Alabama again let's have a bible study too! I'm in Texas and have a aunt in south Florida I visit, and so we take I-10 right along the coast through Alabama every few years. Very nice country there and the people seem nice as well.
I'm glad you see that. Now maybe you can see why I would rather not trust this guy with my sins. He's just a man who sins himself, and is just as prone to doing dumb things as I am myself.Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
I wonder, does he ever get bored, sitting there behind his screen, listening to the long lists of the stupid things people do? I know I would be.
And what happens when someone confesses something really bad to him?
"I hate my wife. I actually think about killing her."
or
"That little girl is growing up so fast. I can't keep my eyes off of her. I want to undress her...I want to touch her.." I'm sure you can figure out the rest of that one.
Now, these people haven't actually done the deed yet. They are just thinking about it. But the priest has no way to know that they won't put those thoughts into action.
Does he alert the police, or is this still a privileged communication? If he doesn't make that call, and the woman ends up dead, or the kid gets brutally raped, is he at fault?
Sure, if you walk away and forget all about it, it's a venial sin. Or maybe you're a single guy, in which case I don't think it's a sin at all, not even if you do follow her into the store and look for an opportunity to talk to her. Is she married? And if she is, but you still don't walk away, is it still not serious? If you're both single, no problem.
Why, nothing, Spiritus. But what your asking me to do is to trust a man. HUGE difference.
Of course not. However, you see the RC as being "His church" while I see it as being a part of His church.
And look! You have a scripture to quote. It hasn't been so long that you would not even have a Bible to read.
I'm not sure exactly what your quote has to do with what we're discussing, however:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
:unsure: ????? :huh:
Yes, it is. But again, we disagree on what the CHURCH is.
Whoa, hold up. Again, we are not in agreement on what, where, or who is "the church".
No, I do not trust denominations. People huddling together, arguing with anyone who doesn't agree with their "doctrine", each one with their own "gospel"...I can feel the tears of the angels hot on my cheek, as that great cloud of witnesses watches to see what we will do with the Lord's great love.
And what we have done is to tear the Bride of Christ into tens of thousands of little pieces and scatter her across the globe.
It would serve us all right if He were to turn His back on us all...
The day is coming, however:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Those verses ought to make us tremble in our holier-than-thou boots, yes?
That's not quite true, Spiritus. We believe in a visible church. Some, like the RC, believe it is in their own denomination.
Some know better.
Unfortunately, a great many do seem to think that.
This board is loaded with 'em...
Yeah, I had a feeling you were a guy. B)And I'm a dude, not old yet but getting there, unfortunately lol.
If I had to guess, I'd say...somewhere around the mid 30's? Not yet 40...but it's closing in fast... :mellow:
Stick around, kiddo. There are folks here who will teach you a whole new meaning of the word "abrasive".Excellent and thanks for the explanation.! This world is a rough place and I understand why people have their guard up all the time and can come across as abrasive. I'm more guilty of that than anyone
And, uh...you have to be careful with some folks. There are those here who have a nasty habit of trying to get people who do not agree with them kicked off the board. They will lure you into an argument, then they will edit out any questionable comments they may have made to you, and report you for goading, or even flaming...
That's how I got my "warning". I let the wrong person lure me into an argument over OSAS...and it got ugly. Like an idiot, I answered insult for insult. Of course, when he reported me, he'd fixed his posts up to make him look as innocent as a daisy...and I came off looking like the wicked witch of the west.
Since then, when the discussion starts getting...unhappy...I take screen shots. And I let that fact be known.
No one has pulled that one on me since.
And I am a writer. I can tell you you are a jerk, and do it without "flaming". Never mess with a writer, boy. You could wind up in her next novel...
Be careful, Spiritus. You strike me as being too innocent for this snake pit...
Oh come on Barrd...you're just as much a pot as the kettles you accuse of being abrasive. We all can be. That's why Jesus taught us to look to the log in our own eye. It's why there are mods here, but all I perceive here is the same as in all your posts....you're innocent and aren't culpable for your own actions. If CB is such a bad place, why stich around? BTW, it is NOT possible to edit out what you have posted once it is set, and once someone quotes your post, it cannot be changed without it being obvious it was. I think VCS is quite capable of taking care of himself mother.The Barrd said:
Yes. I think you caught my portrayal of Simon perfectly.Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
Well, I'm not exactly on the coast. I'm closer to Mobile, actually. But if you ever do get down this way, let me know. I'll cook up some...uh...what's your favorite dish?
And I'll have a batch of cookies waiting.
The Barrd said:I'm glad you see that. Now maybe you can see why I would rather not trust this guy with my sins. He's just a man who sins himself, and is just as prone to doing dumb things as I am myself.
I wonder, does he ever get bored, sitting there behind his screen, listening to the long lists of the stupid things people do? I know I would be.
And what happens when someone confesses something really bad to him?
"I hate my wife. I actually think about killing her."
or
"That little girl is growing up so fast. I can't keep my eyes off of her. I want to undress her...I want to touch her.." I'm sure you can figure out the rest of that one.
Now, these people haven't actually done the deed yet. They are just thinking about it. But the priest has no way to know that they won't put those thoughts into action.
Does he alert the police, or is this still a privileged communication? If he doesn't make that call, and the woman ends up dead, or the kid gets brutally raped, is he at fault?
Sure, if you walk away and forget all about it, it's a venial sin. Or maybe you're a single guy, in which case I don't think it's a sin at all, not even if you do follow her into the store and look for an opportunity to talk to her. Is she married? And if she is, but you still don't walk away, is it still not serious? If you're both single, no problem.
These are difficult scenarios and it's why I trust in the Holy Spirit to guide this man in the right way. (We are instructed to pray for the priest before we go to confession.) Of course that does not always happen because we live in a fallen world. And I would point to Romans 8:28 here. In the end, it will all work itself out under our sovereign God.
Why, nothing, Spiritus. But what your asking me to do is to trust a man. HUGE difference.
Sort of yes, but Jesus gave us a visible church and promise to the church that it wont fail. In the end it will work itself out, whatever the situation may be. Anyway, I think as a protestant if you are faithful to God and go directly to Him you will have your sins forgiven. He works with each one of us differently.
Of course not. However, you see the RC as being "His church" while I see it as being a part of His church.
And look! You have a scripture to quote. It hasn't been so long that you would not even have a Bible to read.
Big misconception about Rome chaining bibles to keep the masses ignorant. Did you know that before the advent of the printing press in the 15th century, a bible had to be hand copied which took maybe a year to do and cost the equivalent of $30,000 dollars? If you had a thirty thousand dollar book you probably wouldn't just leave it on your doorstep at night time lol. And there is also the problem of literacy, or lack thereof. Today everyone is literate and we still have these fanciful cults like the Jehovah witnesses mutilating the scriptures. I can imagine how bad it was back then with the uneducated.
I'm not sure exactly what your quote has to do with what we're discussing, however:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Saul was persecuting Christians, not Jesus. Yet Jesus says why are you persecuting ME? Obviously you cant separate the two. And BTW, those who object to us asking saints for prayers, this scripture shows us how we are all connected through the communion of saints.
:unsure: ????? :huh:
Yes, it is. But again, we disagree on what the CHURCH is.
Whoa, hold up. Again, we are not in agreement on what, where, or who is "the church".
No, I do not trust denominations. People huddling together, arguing with anyone who doesn't agree with their "doctrine", each one with their own "gospel"...I can feel the tears of the angels hot on my cheek, as that great cloud of witnesses watches to see what we will do with the Lord's great love.
And what we have done is to tear the Bride of Christ into tens of thousands of little pieces and scatter her across the globe.
It would serve us all right if He were to turn His back on us all...
As a Catholic we believe there is one visible church, and if you are validly baptized protestant you are a part of it, just separated from it. Protestants will split up over what color the draperies are supposed to be. Seriously, this is pride at it's finest. I saw so much of this as a protestant that it drove me nuts. And part of the problem is private interpretation of the bible has led everybody to believe they have the same authority of the apostles. So go to a baptist church and you have non clergy telling you how to run your life, because they think they are appointed to do so. Then, you rightly get offended and leave the church, or worse, start the 35,001 denomination. I'm being a bit facetious because it's really gotten ridiculous.
The day is coming, however:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Those verses ought to make us tremble in our holier-than-thou boots, yes?
Not if you believe in OSAS as most protestants do. They listen to Joel Osteen's cotton candy "gospel" and think there is no judgement awaiting them because they said a prayer. As a Catholic we believe there is going to be accountability for those worldy Christians who leave this world with baggage, and it wont be pleasant. 1 Corinthians 3:15 . I'm glad you don't believe in Calvinism, though. That faith almost encourages people to sin just to prove how "saved" they are.
That's not quite true, Spiritus. We believe in a visible church. Some, like the RC, believe it is in their own denomination.
Some know better.
Right, but which one do you take matters to as Jesus instructed you in Matthew 18:17 ?
Unfortunately, a great many do seem to think that.
This board is loaded with 'em...
Yeah, I had a feeling you were a guy. B)
If I had to guess, I'd say...somewhere around the mid 30's? Not yet 40...but it's closing in fast... :mellow:
Yes, exactly
Stick around, kiddo. There are folks here who will teach you a whole new meaning of the word "abrasive".
And, uh...you have to be careful with some folks. There are those here who have a nasty habit of trying to get people who do not agree with them kicked off the board. They will lure you into an argument, then they will edit out any questionable comments they may have made to you, and report you for goading, or even flaming...
That's how I got my "warning". I let the wrong person lure me into an argument over OSAS...and it got ugly. Like an idiot, I answered insult for insult. Of course, when he reported me, he'd fixed his posts up to make him look as innocent as a daisy...and I came off looking like the wicked witch of the west.
Since then, when the discussion starts getting...unhappy...I take screen shots. And I let that fact be known.
No one has pulled that one on me since.
And I am a writer. I can tell you you are a jerk, and do it without "flaming". Never mess with a writer, boy. You could wind up in her next novel...
Be careful, Spiritus. You strike me as being too innocent for this snake pit...
I've posted on sites like CARM for years that resembles a Jerry Springer episode more than any Christian operation. Get's ugly I'll just step away for a while.
I'm a pizza person, but I would imagine they aren't specializing in that in Alabama. I would guess it's cajun there as well?The Barrd said:
A man after my own heart! I've often said, if you want to talk to me about food, speak to me in Italian!Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
I don't do home made pizza very often...I'm fussy about pizza, actually, having grown up in upstate New York. What we have on this side of the mason dixon line is not pizza. It is cardboard with sauce on it. True Italian style pizza....yummmm :wub: I'm a pretty good cook...I've been at it since I was seventeen or so, and I'm 65 now...that's a lot of practice!
How about chili con carne? I do a mean chili... Don't all Texans love chili? :huh:
You might feel differently if it were your sister being murdered or your child being raped, because the priest did not make that call.Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
But I'll give you this...at least with the priest, someone does know about these sinful thoughts, so maybe there is a chance that the murder or the rape could be prevented....IF the guy handles the situation as he should.
Fair enough, Spiritus.
If the people were illiterate, wouldn't that be the fault of their teachers? And, uh...wouldn't that be the church? Teach the children to read, and they won't be illiterate...even I can figure that out.
Now, I can understand that, in the days of hand copied Bibles, the church was a bit careful of them.
But then came the printing press. Halelujah, right?
Wrong. For some reason, the church objected to the scriptures being translated into the languages of the people...no, it had to be in Latin. Why? What is sacred about Latin, fevvinsake?
And the penalty for having a Bible in your possession was not a slap on the hand, was it? No...it was death. Seriously...kill someone for reading the Bible?
You can't complain about "how bad it was back then with the uneducated" when it was the Church that was supposed to be doing the educating, Spiritus.
Possibly if the church had taken the opportunity at the advent of the printing press to embrace the new technology and use it to bring the Word of God into people's homes, instead of jealously guarding it as a priestly privilege, the church may never have split up.
Hindsight.....
I see...I think. Nobody is trying to separate Jesus from His church...are they? I'm confused...
I don't really have a major objection to you asking saints for prayers...although it seems to me that Jesus went to a good bit of trouble to open the way to the Throne of Grace where God sits. I have never understood why anyone would go to an aunt or a cousin when they can go directly to Dad. Why waste time talking to an underling, when you can climb right up on your Father's lap and tell Him all about your concerns?
Pray to those dead saints if you insist...they might take your prayers to God, maybe...
I prefer to go straight to God, Himself.
So, Catholics do not argue over the color of the curtains? LOL...I prefer the winey red ones....and I'll bet you like the hunter green. It's a fight!
But you're right, it is a ridiculous argument.
Frankly, Spiritus, I don't think clergy or non-clergy ought to be telling people how to run their lives. Suggest, yes. Point out scripture, yes.
Dictate? NO!
Is someone deep in his or her sin and can't or won't give it up? You do realize that the church cannot force him or her to change. The priest can counsel. He can pray with that person, or for them. In extreme situations, the best thing might be to "disfellowship" him or her, although I do not like that option.
I completely agree, Spiritus. LOL, "candy gospel"? I'm gonna have to remember that one!
Tell me, do you know of anyone who has brought some complaint against another Christian before the church? I've never seen this happen.
Frankly, I'd be too embarrassed to make such a thing public...
In the very unlikely event that I had a serious dispute with someone, and I couldn't reason it out with him or her, I'd pray about it.
Oops...sorry! I don't know how I know these things...I just do.Yes, exactly
I've been a mom for 45 years...and my house has usually been "the koolade house", where all the kids "hung out". That probably has a lot to do with it.
Good advice.
Please learn to use the quote system properly VCS...your replies don't need to be in red if you use the tools on this board.Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
Your scenario here negates the reason why we have the Bible. It is to have an arbiter that is not human/imperfect. God's word already has an answer for this couple, and God wants a willing heart, not one submitted to human tradition. God does not change, men and traditions do.
Now, it's been awhile since I was in high school...but I do remember something about Martin Luther and the Diet of Worms...I guess because the name just stuck with me (diet of worms, ugh). Anyway, I'm a bit vague on it at the moment, but it seems there was a sharp disagreement between Luther and the church over a few things, but the biggie was the sale of indulgences.Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
Come on, Spiritus! The sale of indulgences? Even you, devout Catholic that you are...even you have to admit that taking money from grieving relatives who are concerned for the eternal fate of their dead loved ones is...well, just wrong. I can think of several epithets to describe such an immoral, disgusting practice...but I think you know as well as I do that it was morally wrong, and Luther was absolutely right to object to it.
And wasn't there a papal bull or whatever you call it, excommunicating Luther, and didn't some of his friends steal him by night and hide him? Francis somebody...I remember the name because I always loved the St. Francis of Assisi prayer.
Yes, I'm sure there was violence on both sides. I make no excuses for any Christian who resorts to violence for any reason other than to defend himself or his family.
I can't agree with the way you put that, exactly. First of all, when you say "the church", you don't mean the same thing that I mean when I say "the church". And second, you see clergy as standing in persona to Jesus Christ, and I do not. You think the pope is infallible, at least when he speaks in his office as pope, and I do not. You think it is just fine for people to kneel before him and kiss his ring, and I think it's a disgusting display.
Now, that does not mean that I think that we "can do without it". And it doesn't mean that I don't think that we should have the utmost respect for those who help to guide our feet along the path to Life.
Tell me, Spiritus...how does Jesus tell us that we can know His disciples in this world? Do you know? (hint: it has nothing at all to do with church attendance.)
I guess if you'd rather take your prayers to your big brother than go directly to Dad, that's your prerogative. It just doesn't make sense to me. The door to Daddy's Throne Room is standing wide open, and He sits there, willing to listen to His children's concerns. But, hey...you do it your way...and I'll do it mine.
Some object because they don't think that anyone will be in heaven till after the judgment. Now, me, I think that, on this side of the cross, those of us who are destined to be with Jesus in the place He has prepared for us, do go there immediately at our death. And, as I have said, if I should be mistaken on that, I'll never know it...I'll awaken from my "soul sleep" or whatever, and it will still seem immediate to me. But if that is true...and again, I don't think it is...then those sleeping saints can't take your prayers to God anyway.
Let's see...will I have a job in Heaven? I see myself in a little beach house...a cottage, not a mansion, sort of off the main highway...the road that passes my house is not paved with gold, but with cobblestones, and there are flowers growing wild everywhere. There are also large fruit trees...there is a huge, homey kitchen in my cottage, that opens out into the yard, where the citizens of Heaven will gather to hear me tell my stories. Because that is my job, Spiritus. I am a teller of tales, I am a singer of songs, I am a poet...I am The Barrd of Angelz...and I love what I do.
Oh, dear...
As you get to know me, you will discover that I am adamantly against abortion for any reason other than life or death, as in the mother can't carry to term and live. I have been on the frontlines of this battle for half of my life. I am still on record as a volunteer at a local abortion alternative center, although at my age I am not as active as I once was. At one time, i was the (deep breath) "Media Representative for the Baldwin County chapter of the Alabama Pro Life Coalition"...which meant that I gave interviews, I did radio broadcasts, I gave speeches, I helped to arrange demonstrations like the March on Montgomery, etc. I also counseled one on one with women in crisis pregnancies, and helped several women make the decision to keep their babies. And I have counseled post-abortional women. I've had my heart broken many, many times as these gals tell their horror stories...
I tell you that to tell you that you just happened to choose a scenario that goes right to my heart.
So, Mary wants to abort, and Joe says "no." It's been my experience that most women who consider abortion do so mostly because they feel pressured into it. They generally have no support system. Your scenario involves a young woman with a husband who wants the baby, but she wants to abort anyway. Joe needs to understand...this woman is probably not going to be a very good Momma. She's already showing him that she's not much of a wife...doesn't she know that a Christian wife is supposed to submit to her husband's decisions in matters like this? I mean, this is not a question of what we're having for dinner or what movie we're going to watch on television...this is a life changing decision. I think that Joe might want to consider divorce. He needs to lose this bee with an itch and find himself a decent woman.
Of course, both Joe and Mary already know that the RCC is going to say "no"...but Mary also knows that the church has no real authority over her. They can't force her to carry the child. The very worst thing they can do to her is excommunicate her...but then, she doesn't seem to be much of a Catholic either...and she knows she can get the sacraments elsewhere. Joe ought to have legal recourse...unfortunately, even though he is the child's father, he has no say in this decision, either.
As heart rending as it is, poor Joe has to stand aside and watch as his little one is torn from his wife's body and murdered. And there is nothing at all that he can do about it.
Are you a mod here? If it bothers Barrd I will gladly change styles as she is who I'm addressing.StanJ said:
Easier to post this way and read and in this color, or another color than black.
And your bible came from apostolic tradition, implemented by Jesus Himself. And not everything was written down.
I'm so tired of Mexican food lol.The Barrd said:A man after my own heart! I've often said, if you want to talk to me about food, speak to me in Italian!
I don't do home made pizza very often...I'm fussy about pizza, actually, having grown up in upstate New York. What we have on this side of the mason dixon line is not pizza. It is cardboard with sauce on it. True Italian style pizza....yummmm :wub: I'm a pretty good cook...I've been at it since I was seventeen or so, and I'm 65 now...that's a lot of practice!
How about chili con carne? I do a mean chili... Don't all Texans love chili? :huh:
And NY has excellent pizza.
Well, I don't do Cajun...soooo....Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
Pizza it is! Just let me know when you're coming, Spiritus!
If I was I wouldn't have asked nor used please, but it is common forum ettiquette to not use red and to follow the format setup, I CAN ask the admin to get involved if that would help motivate you?Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
Actually if you learn the BB codes properly, nobody will have a problem understanding or reading your posts. FYI, using red is tantamount to yelling, which is NOT acceptable on this or ANY forum.
It's not MY Bible, it's THE Bible, and it IS the arbiter of the church. The Pope or the RCC never has been. What IS written down is all we need,
as John 20:31 confirms.
Hi V-C-S. You have said, and you may correct me if I am wrong, that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Now like I said, if I am taking you too literally, correct me by all means. But if my understanding on what you have said is correct, then I must disagree. The pillars and foundations of our faith is not the church. It is Truth itself...or even better...it is Truth Himself. When Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh to the Father except by Me", He was not referencing the church.
I posted some time back a teaching of Catholicism in relation to scripture. It helps explain my surprise that you, a catholic, is so free in quoting it. The teaching that is held even to this day, is that the scripture (That is, truth) is not for the individual catholic the foundation of their faith. For the Protestant yes, but you are correct in that the church, for the catholic, is their foundation. That my friend is a fundamental difference between Rome and the rest of the world. It is why there really can be no real union between Catholicism and Protestantism, without one side or the other compromising its own foundation for belief and practice, and why I personally am so against ecumenism knowing that it will never be Rome that compromises
It is also why debates on Truth and doctrine between catholics and protestants can be so frustrating...because each participant in such discussions are coming from completely different perspectives on how to ascertain what i truth. The catholic decides on what is truth on what the church decides the scripture is saying. The protestant decides what is truth as a result of what he reads and believes in his heart according to conscience. Yes, there may be many thousand of denominations as a direct result of people deciding for themselves what the Bible is saying...and you would counter that if they would have listened to the church, they would all be in agreement and in unity. BUT.....would they be right????? I would suggest a person searching scripture for truth in prayer and with the help of the Holy Spirit has far greater capacity for learning truth than anyone who meekly surrenders their will and mind to the church. Any church.
It is by so searching, that people will eventually be united. Not by the political actions or recommendations of church leaders as is happening wthin ecumenism, but by the power and uniting of the Holy Spirit. They will be united by Truth. United by Christ Himself. regardless of their denomination. And eventually, they will come out of those churches that teach error, and find the church that is the most representative of Biblical truth.
And the book of Revelation describes that church. They have come out of Babylon, because Babylon has fallen. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.
That church, not only will they be united in Truth, will have a number of other characteristics also. They will be small...(a remnant church...they will be the few on the narrow road). They will be unpopular...even with the other churches. (they are the ones Satan really really hates, and he will use even other Christians to persecute and malign their teachings...the time will come when you will be killed by those who believe they are serving God). They will be eagerly teaching about and waiting in expectation to the second coming. 2 Timothy 4:8. They will be a prophetic church.(For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy Revel. 12:17; 19:10) And finally, they will be teaching the 3 angels messages of Revel. 14:6-12, and by doing so revealing the true nature and identity of the Antichrist...warning against the mark of the beast...proclaiming the arrival of God's judgement...practicing and teaching true worship...and doing so world wide. Though small, it will be a global church.
On one other note. You have said that Jesus' testimony that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church is evidence that the RCC must be the true church. You need to study history friend. Outside of Rome...from Britain to Seres (China), from Ethiopia to Scandinavia, from Persia, India, and beyond to Vietnam and the Philipines...the gospel of Jesus Christ had been preached and established churches were growing and sending their own missionaries back to Europe before Rome began sending missionaries anywhere. The gates of hell did not prevail against the church...though put down and destroyed in one place, God raised up a standard of righteousness elsewhere. Rome, through paganism, fell way from the truth , the gates of hell did indeed prevail against that portion of the church. But will never prevail against all of God's people. There has always been a remnant who refuse to bow their knees to Baal.
I posted some time back a teaching of Catholicism in relation to scripture. It helps explain my surprise that you, a catholic, is so free in quoting it. The teaching that is held even to this day, is that the scripture (That is, truth) is not for the individual catholic the foundation of their faith. For the Protestant yes, but you are correct in that the church, for the catholic, is their foundation. That my friend is a fundamental difference between Rome and the rest of the world. It is why there really can be no real union between Catholicism and Protestantism, without one side or the other compromising its own foundation for belief and practice, and why I personally am so against ecumenism knowing that it will never be Rome that compromises
It is also why debates on Truth and doctrine between catholics and protestants can be so frustrating...because each participant in such discussions are coming from completely different perspectives on how to ascertain what i truth. The catholic decides on what is truth on what the church decides the scripture is saying. The protestant decides what is truth as a result of what he reads and believes in his heart according to conscience. Yes, there may be many thousand of denominations as a direct result of people deciding for themselves what the Bible is saying...and you would counter that if they would have listened to the church, they would all be in agreement and in unity. BUT.....would they be right????? I would suggest a person searching scripture for truth in prayer and with the help of the Holy Spirit has far greater capacity for learning truth than anyone who meekly surrenders their will and mind to the church. Any church.
It is by so searching, that people will eventually be united. Not by the political actions or recommendations of church leaders as is happening wthin ecumenism, but by the power and uniting of the Holy Spirit. They will be united by Truth. United by Christ Himself. regardless of their denomination. And eventually, they will come out of those churches that teach error, and find the church that is the most representative of Biblical truth.
And the book of Revelation describes that church. They have come out of Babylon, because Babylon has fallen. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.
That church, not only will they be united in Truth, will have a number of other characteristics also. They will be small...(a remnant church...they will be the few on the narrow road). They will be unpopular...even with the other churches. (they are the ones Satan really really hates, and he will use even other Christians to persecute and malign their teachings...the time will come when you will be killed by those who believe they are serving God). They will be eagerly teaching about and waiting in expectation to the second coming. 2 Timothy 4:8. They will be a prophetic church.(For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy Revel. 12:17; 19:10) And finally, they will be teaching the 3 angels messages of Revel. 14:6-12, and by doing so revealing the true nature and identity of the Antichrist...warning against the mark of the beast...proclaiming the arrival of God's judgement...practicing and teaching true worship...and doing so world wide. Though small, it will be a global church.
On one other note. You have said that Jesus' testimony that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church is evidence that the RCC must be the true church. You need to study history friend. Outside of Rome...from Britain to Seres (China), from Ethiopia to Scandinavia, from Persia, India, and beyond to Vietnam and the Philipines...the gospel of Jesus Christ had been preached and established churches were growing and sending their own missionaries back to Europe before Rome began sending missionaries anywhere. The gates of hell did not prevail against the church...though put down and destroyed in one place, God raised up a standard of righteousness elsewhere. Rome, through paganism, fell way from the truth , the gates of hell did indeed prevail against that portion of the church. But will never prevail against all of God's people. There has always been a remnant who refuse to bow their knees to Baal.
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