Is love a work? What if God had mercy upon those who love Him?

[AlfredPersson]

The plain meaning of this context is God foreknew those who loved Him, and these He predestined to glory:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30 NKJ)

Although some suppose foreknowing had nothing to do with predestination, elementary deduction shows that to be unsound. Simply reverse the process and its easily seen one flows from the other, in a chain:

Glorified those He also Justified
Justified those whom He called
Called those whom He predestined to be conformed
predestined those whom He foreknew

[foreknew those called according to His purpose
called according to His purpose those who love God
Therefore for those who love God, all things work together for their good.]

God is Omniscient, [SIZE=10pt]foreknowledge is a subcategory of Omniscience. This explains why Paul refers only to God's foreknowledge; Omniscience is implicit in Rom 8:28 and not pertinent to those called according to His purpose. [/SIZE]

The basic meaning of "foreknew" is precisely that, to "know before." As God's omniscience knows all things, foreknowing is a special knowing before everything else known. What is being "foreknown" is being given priority, prominence not shared with the rest of those God knows.An analogy: highlighting text----words highlighted are "known before" surrounding text.

[SIZE=10pt]It is written:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
(Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)[/SIZE]

As God is omniscient He knows all things, therefore it follows He knew Two Versions of everyone alive: Version #1 before the fall, and Version #2 after the fall.

[SIZE=10pt]Because scripture says this foreknowing happened before the foundation of the world, Version #1 is being foreknown, before anyone did good or bad.[/SIZE]

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Rom 4:4 NKJ)

Is Love a work? If love is not a work, then God is not indebted. For example, a stalker love you, but you are under no obligation to respond positively, or negatively. You can ignore if that is the good pleasure of your will.

So if God chose to foreknow (specially and uniquely know) those who loved Him, and elected them to be predestined according to His purpose---its still salvation by grace alone, according to the good pleasure of His will---and not according to anything in the chosen. God can have Mercy upon whom He will have Mercy:

[SIZE=14pt]15[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:15-16 NKJ)[/SIZE]

The choice to show mercy upon whom He will, is entirely His. He is under no obligation to respond at all to those who love Him.

This solves a lot of problems with free will and Reprobation. It would mean God foreknew those whose free will would not be subverted if He predestined them unto salvation, but left the rest to make their choice after the Fall. In other words, God foreknew those who loved Him before the founding of the world, as they would have been before the fall; AND lest any of these be lost after the fall, He predestines them to salvation.

It follows God chose not to predestine those who could go either way, for that would have subverted their free will choice.

 

[ATP]

Questions from me too, in regards to 1-3..
1. Does not the potter have the right
2. prepared for destruction?
3. Preparing people for destruction in order to make the riches of his glory known

Rom 9:21-26 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not my people,’

there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”

 

[justaname]

Wether or not love is a work depends on the motivation for loving.

If you love as a means for salvation, then yes it is a work. Loving out of the motivation of love is not a work.
God loves because that is His nature, for Him love is never a work.

 

[AlfredPersson]

Questions from me too, in regards to 1-3..
1. Does not the potter have the right
2. prepared for destruction?
3. Preparing people for destruction in order to make the riches of his glory known

Rom 9:21-26 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not my people,’

there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”

Its likely I misunderstood your questions.
1)To argue the Potter has the right is not saying He did it. I believe this is a type of Midrashic "Kelal upherat" (Goggle it) argumentation, arguing from an accepted truth a particular application. Here Paul is showing there is no unrighteousness with God, even if He did this because as Creator He has the right. But it doesn't say He did it.

2)The case of Pharoah illustrates, he harded his own heart, but God allowed magicians duplicate some of His miracles and that "hardened Pharoah's heart". No "hardening energy" went from God to force Pharoah to sin; Pharoah made his choice, and God saw to it he became convinced he could fight God and win:


Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exo 7:22 NKJ)

3.)That is how God prepares people for destruction to make His glory known:

"But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. (Exo 9:16 NKJ)

God raised him up to be Pharaoh, but Pharaoh made the choice to rebel against God, then God hardened his heart in that choice, to make His power known.

Pharaoh had equal opportunity to repent, even more so as he witnessed God's power with his own eyes. But he made his choice, and there is a point when the obstinate are left to their own devices.

Wether or not love is a work depends on the motivation for loving.

If you love as a means for salvation, then yes it is a work. Loving out of the motivation of love is not a work.
God loves because that is His nature, for Him love is never a work.

Then its not love, its something else. Love in its essence, is unselfish. Feigning love to gain salvation, is a con.

So I believe God can elect "them who love God" without making election according to a work, because love is not something one does, it just happens of its own accord.

 

[KingJ]

Although some suppose foreknowing had nothing to do with predestination, elementary deduction shows that to be unsound. Simply reverse the process and its easily seen one flows from the other, in a chain:

Glorified those He also Justified
Justified those whom He called
Called those whom He predestined to be conformed
predestined those whom He foreknew

[foreknew those called according to His purpose
called according to His purpose those who love God
Therefore for those who love God, all things work together for their good.]

God is Omniscient, [SIZE=10pt]foreknowledge is a subcategory of Omniscience. This explains why Paul refers only to God's foreknowledge; Omniscience is implicit in Rom 8:28 and not pertinent to those called according to His purpose. [/SIZE]


The choice to show mercy upon whom He will, is entirely His. He is under no obligation to respond at all to those who love Him.

This solves a lot of problems with free will and Reprobation. It would mean God foreknew those whose free will would not be subverted if He predestined them unto salvation, but left the rest to make their choice after the Fall. In other words, God foreknew those who loved Him before the founding of the world, as they would have been before the fall; AND lest any of these be lost after the fall, He predestines them to salvation.

It follows God chose not to predestine those who could go either way, for that would have subverted their free will choice.

Yes, God can have mercy on whom He wills, scripture is clear that God does what pleases Him...and guess what...scripture is crystal clear that being impartial pleases God.

Yes, God is omniscient and omnipotent... but He is also good (give thanks! because He doesn't have to be) Psalm 136:1. Predestining anyone as you imply above is simply evil...not good. God is not evil. We need to not make assumptions, but rather accept that we cannot grasp God / put Him into a box as much as we think we grasp omniscience and omnipotence. Job 9:3 Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand.

Is love a work? What if God had mercy upon those who love Him

Love is a work. God does have mercy on those who love Him. Everyone living can choose to love Him. He knocks on everyone's heart. Rev 3:20 has no exception clauses.

 

[AlfredPersson]

Questions from me too, in regards to 1-3..
1. Does not the potter have the right
2. prepared for destruction?
3. Preparing people for destruction in order to make the riches of his glory known

Rom 9:21-26 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not my people,’

there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”

I didn't address your objection precisely. God is Sovereign, Omniscient. He knows who are His and its very clear from vs 19 Paul does say God's will is irresistibly done:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:17-24 NKJ)

But notice vs 22, "What if"... To paraphrase this, ."What if God" gave space for these to repent and believe, even though He knows they won't and acts according to His omniscient knowledge and uses them for His own purposes? What if He did that? Vs 14 : Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

Then what I replied about Pharoah hardening his own heart, is probative.

In v. 22 the crucial problem is to interpret correctly the expression “prepared for destruction.” Is Paul teaching a double predestination? This is improbable, because he avoids involving God in this case, whereas he is involved in showing mercy to the objects of his mercy (v. 23). Furthermore, God’s patience in bearing with the objects of his wrath suggests a readiness to receive such on condition of repentance (cf. 2:3, 4; 2 Peter 3:9). So “prepared for destruction” designates a ripeness of sinfulness that points to judgment unless there is a turning to God, yet God is not made responsible for the sinful condition. The preparation for destruction is the work of man, who allows himself to deteriorate in spite of knowledge and conscience

Harrison, E. F. (1976). Romans. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Romans through Galatians (Vol. 10, p. 107). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

9:22–24 Up to this point Paul had insisted that God acts in sovereign freedom. The clay has no right to question the intentions of the potter. But here he added another perspective. The “objects of wrath” are not summarily dismissed with no concern for their lot as those not chosen. That God exercised great patience with them indicates that there is more to be learned about why they “deserve wrath and are maturing for destruction” (v. 22, Berkeley). God’s sovereignty does not reduce humans to helpless automatons. Although it was God’s will to show his wrath against sin and make known his power, he nevertheless postponed action against those who will someday experience his judicial displeasure.28 Earlier we learned that God’s kindness was intended to lead the sinner to repentance (2:4).

Mounce, R. H. (1995). Romans (Vol. 27, p. 202). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

 

[Dan57]

Love itself is not works... Our works are a result of love.

 

[KingJ]

I didn't address your objection precisely. God is Sovereign, Omniscient. He knows who are His and its very clear from vs 19 Paul does say God's will is irresistibly done:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:17-24 NKJ)

But notice vs 22, "What if"... To paraphrase this, ."What if God" gave space for these to repent and believe, even though He knows they won't and acts according to His omniscient knowledge and uses them for His own purposes? What if He did that? Vs 14 : Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

Then what I replied about Pharoah hardening his own heart, is probative.

In v. 22 the crucial problem is to interpret correctly the expression “prepared for destruction.” Is Paul teaching a double predestination? This is improbable, because he avoids involving God in this case, whereas he is involved in showing mercy to the objects of his mercy (v. 23). Furthermore, God’s patience in bearing with the objects of his wrath suggests a readiness to receive such on condition of repentance (cf. 2:3, 4; 2 Peter 3:9). So “prepared for destruction” designates a ripeness of sinfulness that points to judgment unless there is a turning to God, yet God is not made responsible for the sinful condition. The preparation for destruction is the work of man, who allows himself to deteriorate in spite of knowledge and conscience

Harrison, E. F. (1976). Romans. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Romans through Galatians (Vol. 10, p. 107). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

9:22–24 Up to this point Paul had insisted that God acts in sovereign freedom. The clay has no right to question the intentions of the potter. But here he added another perspective. The “objects of wrath” are not summarily dismissed with no concern for their lot as those not chosen. That God exercised great patience with them indicates that there is more to be learned about why they “deserve wrath and are maturing for destruction” (v. 22, Berkeley). God’s sovereignty does not reduce humans to helpless automatons. Although it was God’s will to show his wrath against sin and make known his power, he nevertheless postponed action against those who will someday experience his judicial displeasure.28 Earlier we learned that God’s kindness was intended to lead the sinner to repentance (2:4).

Mounce, R. H. (1995). Romans (Vol. 27, p. 202). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Have you read any part of the bible except for Rom 9?

God CAN do whatever He wants. Amen!! Rom 9 is true!!! BUT what God does in fact decide to do is clearly explained in the REST of scripture. Try John 3:16.

 

[AlfredPersson]

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
(Rom 9:19 NKJ)


11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11-16 NKJ)

This is consistent with God Omniscient knowing all before they did good or bad, then choosing to "foreknow" those that loved Him in a unique and special way---if we be permitted to think of these things from man's linear perspective and not God's infinite and instantaneous non linear knowing.

To love Jacob and hate Esau is to say these existed to be objects of such emotion. To say this was before either did good or bad, is to say Version #1 is being known in the infinite Mind of God before the founding of the world, not Version #2 after the fall, as all are now in this reality.

As love is not "of the will," and does not create "debt", That God chose to foreknow specially them who loved Him, was Him having mercy upon whom He would have mercy, and the reasons for Choice whom He would predestine to glory remains entirely according to the good pleasure of His will and not in those selected.

So there is no unrighteousness with God, although these are chosen and not the rest, all come to salvation via faith in Jesus Christ, and that offer is open to all regardless whether they are Jacob or Esau.

Paul makes that clear in vv 18-24, vs 22 precisely.

God is Sovereign, no one resists His will, so how can He yet find fault? Elementary, "What if" God gave these space to repent, endured them much long suffering although He knew ultimately they would reject Him, but still waited patiently giving them the opportunity to repent. What if God did that, is there still unrighteousness with God? Of course not!

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:18-24 KJV)

9:22–24 Up to this point Paul had insisted that God acts in sovereign freedom. The clay has no right to question the intentions of the potter. But here he added another perspective. The “objects of wrath” are not summarily dismissed with no concern for their lot as those not chosen. That God exercised great patience with them indicates that there is more to be learned about why they “deserve wrath and are maturing for destruction” (v. 22, Berkeley). God’s sovereignty does not reduce humans to helpless automatons. Although it was God’s will to show his wrath against sin and make known his power, he nevertheless postponed action against those who will someday experience his judicial displeasure.28 Earlier we learned that God’s kindness was intended to lead the sinner to repentance (2:4).

Mounce, R. H. (1995). Romans (Vol. 27, p. 202). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

In v. 22 the crucial problem is to interpret correctly the expression “prepared for destruction.” Is Paul teaching a double predestination? This is improbable, because he avoids involving God in this case, whereas he is involved in showing mercy to the objects of his mercy (v. 23). Furthermore, God’s patience in bearing with the objects of his wrath suggests a readiness to receive such on condition of repentance (cf. 2:3, 4; 2 Peter 3:9). So “prepared for destruction” designates a ripeness of sinfulness that points to judgment unless there is a turning to God, yet God is not made responsible for the sinful condition. The preparation for destruction is the work of man, who allows himself to deteriorate in spite of knowledge and conscience.

Harrison, E. F. (1976). Romans. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Romans through Galatians (Vol. 10, p. 107). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[KingJ]

God is Sovereign, no one resists His will, so how can He yet find fault? Elementary, "What if" God gave these space to repent, endured them much long suffering although He knew ultimately they would reject Him, but still waited patiently giving them the opportunity to repent. What if God did that, is there still unrighteousness with God? Of course not!

This is where you need to defy logic. Yes, showing preference is evil. We have a brain from God that can deduce that. God has got nothing to hide. There is no need to defy logic and common sense.

You THINK you are grasping / wrapping your mind around God but you ARE NOT. You are stating an assumption off of HALF the facts. Just as God is omniscient so to is He GOOD. Good = good. Good is not good + evil.

The evidence points to God entrusting the devil with power and authority because He honestly trusted him with it. God was shocked / surprised on some level when the devil fell. God DID NOT setup the devil for a fall. That would make God evil and God is not evil.

Honesty is calling a spade a spade. A God that predestined anyone for hell is evil. Grasping how God achieves omniscience and impartiality at the same time is BEYOND US. It will blow your brain. But that IS where the evidence points. STOP suggesting God is evil. Because that is exactly what any honest person with IQ > 10 will deduce from a partial God. Be man enough / honest enough to agree with Job in Job 9:3!!!!! and just look at where the evidence points. Do not try put God in a box with your teeny tiny human mind. You can't.

 

[AlfredPersson]

This is where you need to defy logic. Yes, showing preference is evil. We have a brain from God that can deduce that. God has got nothing to hide. There is no need to defy logic and common sense.

You THINK you are grasping / wrapping your mind around God but you ARE NOT. You are stating an assumption off of HALF the facts. Just as God is omniscient so to is He GOOD. Good = good. Good is not good + evil.

The evidence points to God entrusting the devil with power and authority because He honestly trusted him with it. God was shocked / surprised on some level when the devil fell. God DID NOT setup the devil for a fall. That would make God evil and God is not evil.

Honesty is calling a spade a spade. A God that predestined anyone for hell is evil. Grasping how God achieves omniscience and impartiality at the same time is BEYOND US. It will blow your brain. But that IS where the evidence points. STOP suggesting God is evil. Because that is exactly what any honest person with IQ > 10 will deduce from a partial God. Be man enough / honest enough to agree with Job in Job 9:3!!!!! and just look at where the evidence points. Do not try put God in a box with your teeny tiny human mind. You can't.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

If one is logical then it follows from the Quantum nature of reality the Creator is infinite in every aspect of His being and cannot be "surprised" by anything. If one is scriptural, then its clear God created even though He knew the Devil and a significant number of angels and men would rebel, for the joy of having the greater good come into existence:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:22-24 NKJ)

Your conclusions are invalid, predicated upon hasty generalizations and ad hominem to the nth degree.

 

[KingJ]

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

If one is logical then it follows from the Quantum nature of reality the Creator is infinite in every aspect of His being and cannot be "surprised" by anything. If one is scriptural, then its clear God created even though He knew the Devil and a significant number of angels and men would rebel, for the joy of having the greater good come into existence:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:22-24 NKJ)

Your conclusions are invalid, predicated upon hasty generalizations and ad hominem to the nth degree.

As long as there is a hell where people suffer for eternity your belief is rather sick and unscriptural. You chose to serve that God when first saved?

Your belief should prompt you to kill babies in spreading the gospel / saving them for heaven Matt 19:14. Unless of course it is so sick that you actually believe babies will go to hell.

So Moses did not change God's will in Ex 32:14?

Please read Job more then Rom 9 and grasp that you cannot grasp God. We can ONLY look at where the evidence points. It points to God not predestining anyone for hell, but loving all equally and free will. Job 9:3 Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand.

If one is logical then it follows from the Quantum nature of reality the Creator is infinite in every aspect of His being and cannot be "surprised" by anything

Are you sure? The bible I read tells me that He put His omnipotence away and made Himself as a Lamb to the slaughter...to uphold who He is ...being righteous and good pleases Him Psalm 136:1...THATS why we give thanks and serve Him.

 

[AlfredPersson]

As long as there is a hell where people suffer for eternity your belief is rather sick and unscriptural. You chose to serve that God when first saved?

Your belief should prompt you to kill babies in spreading the gospel / saving them for heaven Matt 19:14. Unless of course it is so sick that you actually believe babies will go to hell.

So Moses did not change God's will in Ex 32:14?

Please read Job more then Rom 9 and grasp that you cannot grasp God. We can ONLY look at where the evidence points. It points to God not predestining anyone for hell, but loving all equally and free will. Job 9:3 Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand.


Are you sure? The bible I read tells me that He put His omnipotence away and made Himself as a Lamb to the slaughter...to uphold who He is ...being righteous and good pleases Him Psalm 136:1...THATS why we give thanks and serve Him.

The doctrine of the two natures in Christ. The incarnation was an addition to the Person of the Son, human nature. Christ veiled Himself so He was like us in all points, but He never ceased to be God in Heaven (

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:6-7 NKJ)

13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven (Joh 3:13 NKJ)

As man Christ could ask "who touched me" etc, eat drink and sleep. But as Almighty God the Eternal Son, He knows all things (Joh 21:17).

It is impossible Christ "emptied Himself" (ἐκένωσεν κενόω)of His nature via the incarnation, for a Being without nature does not exist, and the text says the same Person who made Himself of no reputation, "took on" (λαβών λαμβάνω) the form of a bond servant. Someone who doesn't exist, could not do that. Hence the KJV rendering "made Himself of no reputation" is to be preferred. So also Lightfoot.

Here Jesus' Deity "peeks through the curtain of His humanity" and propels all opposed to go "backward" and fall to the ground, involuntarily:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. (Joh 18:4-6 KJV)