Is Propitiation Once and For All?

[nothead]

Propitiation is once for all as scripture proclaims. You will know a tree by the fruit it bears. A bad tree will not produce good fruit, and a good tree will not produce bad fruit. By this they will know the disciples of God, by their love for one another. Love is the binding factor that unites us.

Shema is the appropriate and given response from all those who are saved. This is why those who are saved are saved from an eternal perspective. It is never an on again off again relationship with God. Perseverance of the saints is not a doctrine that is irrespective of faith as some believe.

Jesus is the vine, all branches that do not bear fruit are broken off and burned. Those that do bear fruit are pruned to bear even more fruit. In such we must remember the parable of the soils...only the good soil is the one we would call "saved."

Shalom

All who are saved from an eternal perspective is truly saying nothing since God only knows what His eternal endgame view is. Perseverence of the Saints only means that the ones chosen will persevere if they don't mezz up. Wow AGAIN saying nothing from your own perspective which just happens NOT to be divine perspective.

I agree those pruned to bear fruit will bear even more, and that faith is unto more faith, the more given the more required of.

Propitiation is rather a done deal from God-promise and from Messiah-end. Messiah accomplished all, the Cross is Finished from his side of Covenant. And from the promise side of God's Covenant. But YOUR end is not finished unless you dead and cannot read this and post forthwith.

THIS is what makes OSAS impossible and a Done Deal Salvation also impossible. YOUR END is yet to finish, and God will judge you for attitude points. Faith with action attending, as Nothead puts it.

Faith With Action Attending Theology 101.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

This is where we keep talking past each other. Nobody is saying that we do it alone. Those who take the stance that works are a necessary ingredient to faith and to final salvation aren't making the argument that anyone makes it to heaven by their own merits. There's a span between doing what is our duty to do (Lk 17:7-10) and ultimate salvation is infinite; Jesus is the bridge that crosses that great divide. It's one of the biggest strawman arguments in Christian debate, this "you can't work your way to heaven" sermon. Who is actually saying that? The lesson of the Unprofitable Servant is that we have our end to hold up and our lives must bear fruit. But even doing so, in the end, we're saved by grace.

I mostly agree with what I think that you are saying here Vale. The important distinction I would make is that we do not even do the good works that we do. I am no longer my own, instead I am Christ's, He is my master, so if I work to please my Master as His bondservant....I live to do the Master's bidding. Therefore if I only do the good the Master to tells me to do...who gets credit for the work? I am not my own, I can not think as my own now that Christ is in me (I wish it were as easy as typing it is). If I can not even have a thought that the Master doesn't have control over....who has done the work?

I know that the good I do originates from Christ. Trust me, my natural man knows no good, it has to be Christ in me.

May Christ get all the glory. I am nothing apart from Him.

SL

Well, then I agree that the spirit of the Living God is what finishes our YONTOO to do Shema.

But you forgot the heart and soul and strength is too required. Even our flesh, as much as we can muster. Sounds complicated but it ain't. Vince Lombardi said 110%. Now, THAT'S a little complicated...

So then we try like the dickens and the Holy Spirit has to finish it. In real life. BOTH required and BOTH ideally manifested.

Please see my response to Vale.

Christ furnishes everything...even your 110% Heart, soul, strength? Christ in me...the hope of glory. Christ finished it my friend. Please re-read Ephesians and notice all the small words. Notice who the "of's" point to...it isn't me. We can go through it verse by verse if needed.

SL

 

[justaname]

All who are saved from an eternal perspective is truly saying nothing since God only knows what His eternal endgame view is. Perseverence of the Saints only means that the ones chosen will persevere if they don't mezz up. Wow AGAIN saying nothing from your own perspective which just happens NOT to be divine perspective.

I agree those pruned to bear fruit will bear even more, and that faith is unto more faith, the more given the more required of.

Propitiation is rather a done deal from God-promise and from Messiah-end. Messiah accomplished all, the Cross is Finished from his side of Covenant. And from the promise side of God's Covenant. But YOUR end is not finished unless you dead and cannot read this and post forthwith.

THIS is what makes OSAS impossible and a Done Deal Salvation also impossible. YOUR END is yet to finish, and God will judge you for attitude points. Faith with action attending, as Nothead puts it.

Faith With Action Attending Theology 101.

Actually Preservation of the Saints means those chosen don't "mezz up," the chosen preserve to the end.

It is not by our power that we are saved, rather by God. Selah There is One God who saves, whose name is Jealous, our Savior is the Mighty God, the Eternal Father, the Lord of Hosts.

Thereby those who have been chosen by God to hear the gospel,who are drawn by the Father, that are kept by the Messiah, and are sanctified through the HolySpirit, are saved and will preserver until the end. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is the One to whom we give glory in our preservation, for by His stripes we are healed. Salvation is a gift from God, not in anyway earned, so that none may boast.

10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The promise is from God, we are kept in the promise by His strength.

I will say in our sanctification we are to cooperate and not grieve the HolySpirit. If this is what you mean by an active faith, I agree.

Also in your reply I see you agree God will judge us...

2Timothy 4:1

1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:


John 5:22

22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Take note here what God says here...

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[nothead]

The death we all die is a physical death. Jesus did die a physical death, the same one we all die as the payment for our sin. Romans 6:23 He paid the full penalty for our sin. He died once for all. 1 Peter 3:18, Romans 6:10, Hebrews 10:12 and many others. Now what does all mean except all? All sin, all time, all people. The sin is paid for. Sin is not what sends a man into eternal separation from God our Father. What does that? Not accepting the payment that God offered through Christ. It is available to everyone...it is already paid for. Any sin you ever committed, any sin you will ever commit. Any sin anyone ever committed. Paid. Once for all. Period.

We have nothing to do with it.

SL

I mostly agree with what I think that you are saying here Vale. The important distinction I would make is that we do not even do the good works that we do. I am no longer my own, instead I am Christ's, He is my master, so if I work to please my Master as His bondservant....I live to do the Master's bidding. Therefore if I only do the good the Master to tells me to do...who gets credit for the work? I am not my own, I can not think as my own now that Christ is in me (I wish it were as easy as typing it is). If I can not even have a thought that the Master doesn't have control over....who has done the work?

I know that the good I do originates from Christ. Trust me, my natural man knows no good, it has to be Christ in me.

May Christ get all the glory. I am nothing apart from Him.

SL

Please see my response to Vale.

Christ furnishes everything...even your 110% Heart, soul, strength? Christ in me...the hope of glory. Christ finished it my friend. Please re-read Ephesians and notice all the small words. Notice who the "of's" point to...it isn't me. We can go through it verse by verse if needed.

SL

You make the same mistake non-charismatics make in thinking they are fully indwelt with the Christ in them, or Holy Spirit indwelling. Charismatics think they got it going on too, and they do, compared to those who never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But remember compared to the first 3000 and 5000 this is also a relative event. Hardly any or NONE baptized today even considers the obligation to DIE for God when the time comes. What does this mean?

To hate your father mother sister or brother if they stand between you and God. To turn the other cheek when they shame you in front of others. To walk a mile when the soldier shames you in front of the girls. To cut off your hand in order to get to them pearly gates. To pluck your eye out for the same.

Too radical for the masses? Jesus said it, not me. What is more important, HEAVEN or your eye? There is another solution, as Jesus directly pointed to: don't PLUCK it out, rather see the Seeing of the Seeing.

Do you see the Seeing of the Seeing, sir? Shema has never died. You must give it up, how much do you have to give up? Well sir, what did God say? What are the hard words of the Christ? The awesome, undoable, HOLY, immeasurably INTENSE pristine wonder of what He requires of you?

Luke 14

[SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

This is more than your country requires since God requires the HEART of you. This is more than your coach or your CEO requires since God is God and no one else compares...

What you thought religion was an ADD-ON, and you are fully indwelt with the Spirit of God? Let me say this, you AIN'T if you do not receive Shema in your heart as the fulfillment of all Law, you being ready to GIVE IT UP, all of it.

This is your cross, to bear and Jesus said it was easy. Yeah it is, compared to the flesh who cannot receive it. True believers will give it up. And how much is required?

Man what did God say? I ain't repeating it again. Not until the next post anyway.

Actually Preservation of the Saints means those chosen don't "mezz up," the chosen preserve to the end.

You assume CHOSEN means God chooses you for them pearly gates. I allow for the theological concept that God CHOOSES you in the interim for Covenant. My Theology is naturally superior to yours, how do I know.

It makes more sense is why. Common sense. Why God tells us we CHOSEN if we have to work out our salvation? Eh? With fear and trembling, of PAUL of all men, that murderer why he say that, in his absence as if he were present?

And in general, why fear the fear of the liability of possibly not MAKING them pearly gates when God just said he CHOSE US?

It is not by our power that we are saved, rather by God. Selah There is One God who saves, whose name is Jealous, our Savior is the Mighty God, the Eternal Father, the Lord of Hosts.

Thereby those who have been chosen by God to hear the gospel,who are drawn by the Father, that are kept by the Messiah, and are sanctified through the HolySpirit, are saved and will preserver until the end. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is the One to whom we give glory in our preservation, for by His stripes we are healed. Salvation is a gift from God, not in anyway earned, so that none may boast.

In Covenant you try to love God like the dickens and the Holy Spirit will finish. It is like the power, the KICK at the finish line, the CATALYST which gives supernatual dimension to your flesh, and your will and your determination, and your limited physical and mental ability to run your race.

And if the Holy Spirit don't finish you, you something out of ruck as a Chinese man might say. Just as if Jesus don't mediate you at the Judgement Seat.

We all want to sit there with proud uplifted heads. I will probably however grovel and scream for my Lord since the God of me is too bright to look at. And fearsome to say the least.

10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The promise is from God, we are kept in the promise by His strength.

No you are kept in promise by being obedient to God. Follow his commands. His yoke is easy, compared to the OT people of Old Covenant. Since the Holy Spirit finishes you.

See you theology totally NEGATES Covenant. I will not stand for this and point this out to you. God and you, you and God. Covenant.

2Timothy 4:1

1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:


John 5:22

22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Take note here what God says here...

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hearing and believing is truly requisite. What modern man has done is make BELIEVING a set of premises in his head, 4 to 11 of them give or take. Quite stupid, silly and grievous.

Pisteow is ongoing, holistically mystical, and open-ended. From faith to faith. From what a babe knows to what a MEAT EATER knows.

Eat Jesus' flesh. Go on, and be saved.

 

[justaname]

nothead,

Interesting you use the Philippians passage because it speaks directly to my case...

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

To speak of the choosing as I earlier noted and to your comment lets again go to scripture as the authority and not nothead....


28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This language is clear that it is God who does the choosing and keeping. It is by His power, not our own. In Ephesians the holy scriptures state we are His workmanship, not our own.

Then we have the promise of the Son...


39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Again those who are kept by God are obedient, a tree is judged by its fruit. It is not by our power that we are kept rather by the power of God.


2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by ahearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

To be quite clear Shemah is the Law...without question or doubt.




All glory be given to El-Elyon na Adonai who has given us the Law to break our stubborn pride and prove to us our need for Yashua Ha-Mashiach. Todah Abba, shalom, todah.

Lets look also to the New Covenant, which is not a suzerainty treaty as the Old Covenant was...

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And to further my case...


40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.


The sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and will not go to another's voice. The Good Shepherd will not lose any of the sheep in fact he will leave the entire fold to retrieve the lost one, returning in joy with the lost one on His shoulders.

 

[nothead]

nothead,

Interesting you use the Philippians passage because it speaks directly to my case...

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

To speak of the choosing as I earlier noted and to your comment lets again go to scripture as the authority and not nothead....


28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This language is clear that it is God who does the choosing and keeping. It is by His power, not our own. In Ephesians the holy scriptures state we are His workmanship, not our own.

Then we have the promise of the Son...


39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Again those who are kept by God are obedient, a tree is judged by its fruit. It is not by our power that we are kept rather by the power of God.


2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by ahearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

To be quite clear Shema is the Law...without question or doubt.




All glory be given to El-Elyon na Adonai who has given us the Law to break our stubborn pride and prove to us our need for Yashua Ha-Mashiach. Todah Abba, shalom, todah.

Lets look also to the New Covenant, which is not a suzerainty treaty as the Old Covenant was...

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And to further my case...


40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.


The sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and will not go to another's voice. The Good Shepherd will not lose any of the sheep in fact he will leave the entire fold to retrieve the lost one, returning in joy with the lost one on His shoulders.

Didn't I agree with you that the Holy Spirit FINISHES you, whether your character, your spoken word, or your race? Whether your career, personal aspirations or your testimony of gospel?

What reformed have done is taken the SPIRIT out of the equation and then say God finishes you en whole, automatically. AUTOMATICALLY??

Even Jesus prays for GLORY before the Cross in Jn 17 that which was already promised him before the foundation of the world. So why PRAY for this? Done Deal, right?

WRONG. Done deal from God's end. OPEN deal from our end. Jesus has more confidence than normal man, CALLING the glory that which God already gave him, ever since God THOUGHT it...yet he still prays for it. See how Reformed are? STATIC. I will say it right now. Reformed don't pray. Why, what for? God did it.

God says to MOVE. Move what? Eh? What does God say in Shema, sir? MOVE YOUR BUTT. Move it. Be ready to ACT NOW. In the HERE AND NOW. Faith with action. Jews did not see faith and action apart from each other.

I am speaking of Covenant, sir. Of course God has to do it. No man has ever done Shema but one. No man even WANTS to do Shema lest the Holy Spirit gives him love for this law, love to do this law. Love for God which IS this law.

But you cannot control the movements of the Holy Ghost. God does. You do your part. Flesh, mind soul, spirit, whatever you got. And hope and pray God FINISHES you sir.

 

[justaname]

Didn't I agree with you that the Holy Spirit FINISHES you, whether your character, your spoken word, or your race? Whether your career, personal aspirations or your testimony of gospel?

What reformed have done is taken the SPIRIT out of the equation and then say God finishes you en whole, automatically. AUTOMATICALLY??

Even Jesus prays for GLORY before the Cross in Jn 17 that which was already promised him before the foundation of the world. So why PRAY for this? Done Deal, right?

WRONG. Done deal from God's end. OPEN deal from our end. Jesus has more confidence than normal man, CALLING the glory that which God already gave him, ever since God THOUGHT it...yet he still prays for it. See how Reformed are? STATIC. I will say it right now. Reformed don't pray. Why, what for? God did it.

God says to MOVE. Move what? Eh? What does God say in Shema, sir? MOVE YOUR BUTT. Move it. Be ready to ACT NOW. In the HERE AND NOW. Faith with action. Jews did not see faith and action apart from each other.

I am speaking of Covenant, sir. Of course God has to do it. No man has ever done Shema but one. No man even WANTS to do Shema lest the Holy Spirit gives him love for this law, love to do this law. Love for God which IS this law.

But you cannot control the movements of the Holy Ghost. God does. You do your part. Flesh, mind soul, spirit, whatever you got. And hope and pray God FINISHES you sir.

Let me say I believe we are closer in this than we are apart. The point of difference I perceive is emphasis.

To be certain we are not justified by "faith alone" as James states inspired through the HolySpirit. Yet as to not contradict Paul it is not by works that we are justified either.

This particular scripture beautifully dovetails exactly what we are speaking of with Shemah being at its core...

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Also I agree in the sense that we are to run the race as one who seeks the prize. We are not to allow smug arrogance be the attitude that defines our character. We need to not sit along in "auto-pilot mode" or bury the Master's talons so to speak. Yet again I emphasize God as the saving force and power by which we are kept, not our actions.

 

[nothead]

Let me say I believe we are closer in this than we are apart. The point of difference I perceive is emphasis.

To be certain we are not justified by "faith alone" as James states inspired through the HolySpirit. Yet as to not contradict Paul it is not by works that we are justified either.

This particular scripture beautifully dovetails exactly what we are speaking of with Shemah being at its core...

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Also I agree in the sense that we are to run the race as one who seeks the prize. We are not to allow smug arrogance be the attitude that defines our character. We need to not sit along in "auto-pilot mode" or bury the Master's talons so to speak. Yet again I emphasize God as the saving force and power by which we are kept, not our actions.

How could I believe it was MY ACTIONS which saves me? Eh? I am Paul. I have done dirty deeds, so dirty I cannot even relate, these edify nobody.

But AS Paul knew inherently he RACES to beat the Devil, to smite the Behemoth, to give others the same food of sustenance...

Git his licks in, while he can still run, do it, do it with all of his might and will and mind and heart...this is our life. I am telling you your life man. It is more poignant than any movie, any story in any novel. And the FLOAT, the air the player gets after his leap to the basket, the BREEZE of relief in the desert, the WATER given when the rock was struck...this magical Holy Spirit CATALYST is what gives us the window of opportunity, the texture of eternal life the shining light on the hill.

You help to make it so. If you know Shema, you know the dramatic, wonderful, awesome POIGNANCY of this life which is ahead of you each and every day you breathe. This is God and this is you. He put that breath in there of life for a reason.

And that reason is firstly Shema. To love the Lord your God. This is life and many orthodox Jews who DON'T know Jesus may still have hope. Why?

Why God give grace to YOU sir? Why He give grace to Paul? Why He give grace to nothead?

 

[justaname]

How could I believe it was MY ACTIONS which saves me? Eh? I am Paul. I have done dirty deeds, so dirty I cannot even relate, these edify nobody.

But AS Paul knew inherently he RACES to beat the Devil, to smite the Behemoth, to give others the same food of sustenance...

Git his licks in, while he can still run, do it, do it with all of his might and will and mind and heart...this is our life. I am telling you your life man. It is more poignant than any movie, any story in any novel. And the FLOAT, the air the player gets after his leap to the basket, the BREEZE of relief in the desert, the WATER given when the rock was struck...this magical Holy Spirit CATALYST is what gives us the window of opportunity, the texture of eternal life the shining light on the hill.

You help to make it so. If you know Shema, you know the dramatic, wonderful, awesome POIGNANCY of this life which is ahead of you each and every day you breathe. This is God and this is you. He put that breath in there of life for a reason.

And that reason is firstly Shema. To love the Lord your God. This is life and many orthodox Jews who DON'T know Jesus may still have hope. Why?

Why God give grace to YOU sir? Why He give grace to Paul? Why He give grace to nothead?

Well Orthodox Jews cannot claim hope, because it is Jesus that is our hope. Colossians 1:27, 1Timothy 1:1

If you do not have the Son you do not have the Father. By not believing the testimony of the Son given by God you make Him to be a liar. Shemah cannot and will not save you. God is our Savior.

Now I can say God is merciful, and in His providence He is not finished with the nation of Israel. In this the Jew has some solace, yet to fail in one point of the Law is to guilty of the whole Law. Perhaps it is at the return of Christ, when they all look on Him who they pierced, they will repent of their denial of Yeshua.

I am not the Judge, nor can I speak to the final outcome of any individual. As you pointed out God has shown great mercy to me by bestowing His grace upon me, so I will pray for the salvation of the Orthodox Jew. At this juncture in time although the only plan of salvation I know of is through faith in the Son of God.

 

[nothead]

Well Orthodox Jews cannot claim hope, because it is Jesus that is our hope. Colossians 1:27, 1Timothy 1:1

If you do not have the Son you do not have the Father. By not believing the testimony of the Son given by God you make Him to be a liar. Shemah cannot and will not save you. God is our Savior.

Now I can say God is merciful, and in His providence He is not finished with the nation of Israel. In this the Jew has some solace, yet to fail in one point of the Law is to guilty of the whole Law. Perhaps it is at the return of Christ, when they all look on Him who they pierced, they will repent of their denial of Yeshua.

I am not the Judge, nor can I speak to the final outcome of any individual. As you pointed out God has shown great mercy to me by bestowing His grace upon me, so I will pray for the salvation of the Orthodox Jew. At this juncture in time although the only plan of salvation I know of is through faith in the Son of God.

Well I didn't say I knew differently, I could be wrong...as Billy Graham used to say about grace...

You have changed the subject, however. Shema connotes the same drops like blood if you recite it daily with insight.

The reason why is because I believe God will allow you to be a sacrifice as soon as you are ready to be one.

 

[justaname]

Well I didn't say I knew differently, I could be wrong...as Billy Graham used to say about grace...

You have changed the subject, however. Shema connotes the same drops like blood if you recite it daily with insight.

The reason why is because I believe God will allow you to be a sacrifice as soon as you are ready to be one.

This is where you and I vehemently disagree. Jesus is the only propitiation, not other sacrifice is needed.

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law),
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Recite the Shemah a billion times...recite the Hail Mary or Our Father for that same case...none of these actions will save you...Again it is God that saves, not our thoughts, rituals, actions, prayers, or dare I say it even our faith.

It is true without faith we cannot be saved, yet it cannot be overemphasized, it is God who works all things to His good pleasure and will.

 

[nothead]

This is where you and I vehemently disagree. Jesus is the only propitiation, not other sacrifice is needed.

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law),
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Recite the Shemah a billion times...recite the Hail Mary or Our Father for that same case...none of these actions will save you...Again it is God that saves, not our thoughts, rituals, actions, prayers, or dare I say it even our faith.

It is true without faith we cannot be saved, yet it cannot be overemphasized, it is God who works all things to His good pleasure and will.

Blainwash.

Blain damach.

Oh sorry. I was just thinking to myself. Jesus said you cannot be his disciple unless you bear his cross, or be willing to...

...now you say the Finished Cross did all YOUR end of covenant? What? This is where you and I VENHENMENTILLY face off.

You could not be more wrong. You recite Shema at the bottom of your sig? TAKE IT OFF. You got no right to have it there.

Who said it was to directly SAVE YOU?? Paul could do this and what? Cancels out his MURDER of Stephen? What?

It comes by the LOVE which Shema requires, sir. NO LOVE NO COVENANT with God. You don't love Him, He won't give you any more. This is IT. I am about done with you sir. Something hinky about you now I know what it is.

You bear your Cross out of LOVE sir. Not to be saved. A child pleases his dad for this. You put REWARD in the way? Does a child think this way? Why do you think I THINK THIS WAY?

Secondly, listen to John: 1 John 1

[SIZE=.75em]8 [/SIZE]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SIZE=.75em]9 [/SIZE]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

See if you was right, no confession needed. ONCE FOR ALL FUTURE SIN, by your paradigm.

 

[justaname]

Blainwash.

Blain damach.

Oh sorry. I was just thinking to myself. Jesus said you cannot be his disciple unless you bear his cross, or be willing to...

...now you say the Finished Cross did all YOUR end of covenant? What? This is where you and I VENHENMENTILLY face off.

You could not be more wrong. You recite Shema at the bottom of your sig? TAKE IT OFF. You got no right to have it there.

Who said it was to directly SAVE YOU?? Paul could do this and what? Cancels out his MURDER of Stephen? What?

It comes by the LOVE which Shema requires, sir. NO LOVE NO COVENANT with God. You don't love Him, He won't give you any more. This is IT. I am about done with you sir. Something hinky about you now I know what it is.

You bear your Cross out of LOVE sir. Not to be saved. A child pleases his dad for this. You put REWARD in the way? Does a child think this way? Why do you think I THINK THIS WAY?

Humorous even...

Articulation of ideas is key in communication. I my assessment of your previous post I gathered you stating the recitation of Shemah would produce in you justification...now from this post I am reading something different.

I clearly stated that faith working through love was the only path of salvation.

I suggest you do a study of Maimonides and his treatment of Shema...you might find it interesting in relation to the Lord.

This is also interesting as Paul demonstrates Shema in scripture...

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The word used for "Lord" is YHWH...

To speak to the 1John Passage, this could be referring to our initial confession of sin expressing our need for a Savior...
Personally though I see it speaking to an aspect of the relation between the Savior and the saved, this being a continues relationship.

In either case the propitiation of the Christ is not invalidated, because now He is the mediator. Christ's shed blood is sufficient to move believers from children of wrath to children of God.

Shalom

 

[nothead]

Humorous even...

I ain't laughing. IF what you said is true, the Cross finishes all, THEN no bearing of your cross personally is nec. This is greatly ignorant and not at all what I said up the tree. Yet you did not refute me then when I recited Luke 14

[SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

But you now state this is not necessary, when Jesus said it was? How off the wall are you, sir? WAY off, as flies with no brains can't even FIND IT?

Be a smart fly. Find the wall and FLY ON IT. Stop and rub your wings. You made it, barring any flyswatter action.

Articulation of ideas is key in communication. I my assessment of your previous post I gathered you stating the recitation of Shemah would produce in you justification...now from this post I am reading something different.

Recitation of Shema brings revelation of Shema, according to the purpose of God. I said he who RECITES will eventually understand the extent of agape love for God.

His own cross and sacrifice, whatever it may be. But whatever it is, he must have his eyes open for the opportunity, the opportunity to em, reach heaven by doing a great deed? Eh, now, there is a sense of this...

John and James, son of Zebedee, their momma asks Jesus for their status as being at the left and right hands of Jesus. This would not make them God, as Jesus at the right hand of God is not God. But he said were they willing to die like him having the same baptism of destiny? "Yes," they said and he then said but it was not his prerogative to give and only the Father knew who was gonna get there.

But the main reason why the WARRIORS in the faith will die for God...this is actually for honor and for the glory of the God who gave us glory...payback as we can, not being able to PAY BACK the love given us...to actually sense we ARE warriors for God is a revelation in and of itself...

...an honor and a joy. A sense of duty and obligation. A dimension of discipleship rarely mentioned among Club of Jesus fans. So then WHY do we do Shema, recite it or pray about it or try to do it or contemplate it or digest this Law into the fabric of our being??

I clearly stated that faith working through love was the only path of salvation.

For half-arsed covenanters, though what this means is a half-arsed attempt to generally go to Church most Sundays? What? Where does God say LUKEWARM?? And then spit us out like bugs on the wall? Remember how off the wall you were? NOT EVEN in Covenant, since you are not engaged.

Engaged to your fiance? Engaged into battle? Well, yes in a manner of speaking. Engaged into Covenant, which means engaged into Shema.

I suggest you do a study of Maimonides and his treatment of Shema...you might find it interesting in relation to the Lord.

No I will not. YACHID was his replacement of ECHAD. A compound 'one' replacing the monotheist's numerical 'one.' Maimonides had his head way up there.

Where the sun don't shine.

This is also interesting as Paul demonstrates Shema in scripture...

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The word used for "Lord" is YHWH...

So what point are you making? YHWH names one entity of elohim only. This makes God one numerically not three.

To speak to the 1John Passage, this could be referring to our initial confession of sin expressing our need for a Savior...
Personally though I see it speaking to an aspect of the relation between the Savior and the saved, this being a continues relationship.

Yeah and...

In either case the propitiation of the Christ is not invalidated, because now He is the mediator. Christ's shed blood is sufficient to move believers from children of wrath to children of God.

Shalom

You mean sufficient to make us clean enough to COVENANT with. Sir.

 

[justaname]

I ain't laughing. IF what you said is true, the Cross finishes all, THEN no bearing of your cross personally is nec. This is greatly ignorant and not at all what I said up the tree. Yet you did not refute me then when I recited Luke 14

[SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

But you now state this is not necessary, when Jesus said it was? How off the wall are you, sir? WAY off, as flies with no brains can't even FIND IT?

Be a smart fly. Find the wall and FLY ON IT. Stop and rub your wings. You made it, barring any flyswatter action.





Recitation of Shema brings revelation of Shema, according to the purpose of God. I said he who RECITES will eventually understand the extent of agape love for God.

His own cross and sacrifice, whatever it may be. But whatever it is, he must have his eyes open for the opportunity, the opportunity to em, reach heaven by doing a great deed? Eh, now, there is a sense of this...

John and James, son of Zebedee, their momma asks Jesus for their status as being at the left and right hands of Jesus. This would not make them God, as Jesus at the right hand of God is not God. But he said were they willing to die like him having the same baptism of destiny? "Yes," they said and he then said but it was not his prerogative to give and only the Father knew who was gonna get there.

But the main reason why the WARRIORS in the faith will die for God...this is actually for honor and for the glory of the God who gave us glory...payback as we can, not being able to PAY BACK the love given us...to actually sense we ARE warriors for God is a revelation in and of itself...

...an honor and a joy. A sense of duty and obligation. A dimension of discipleship rarely mentioned among Club of Jesus fans. So then WHY do we do Shema, recite it or pray about it or try to do it or contemplate it or digest this Law into the fabric of our being??




For half-arsed covenanters, though what this means is a half-arsed attempt to generally go to Church most Sundays? What? Where does God say LUKEWARM?? And then spit us out like bugs on the wall? Remember how off the wall you were? NOT EVEN in Covenant, since you are not engaged.

Engaged to your fiance? Engaged into battle? Well, yes in a manner of speaking. Engaged into Covenant, which means engaged into Shema.





No I will not. YACHID was his replacement of ECHAD. A compound 'one' replacing the monotheist's numerical 'one.' Maimonides had his head way up there.

Where the sun don't shine.






So what point are you making? YHWH names one entity of elohim only. This makes God one numerically not three.




Yeah and...




You mean sufficient to make us clean enough to COVENANT with. Sir.

When did I state it is not necessary to pick up your cross daily? If you understand anything I am conveying it should be this point. We are saved by God, not our actions. This in no way states the condition of Shema no longer applies in the life of the believer.

And a bit of reference...
The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").
Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.

Maimonides changed the wording in order to combat Christianity...Echad is the unified one (like the Church, or one flesh between man and woman), whereas yachid is solitary oneness. The point here is Shema is not in conflict Trinitarian theology as you so want it to be, in fact it supports it.

My point in the YHWH reference is Jesus is referred to as the Covenant God of Israel.

I mean the shed blood of Jesus our Messiah is sufficient in it's own right for the salvation of any believer, simply as the scriptures state, nothing need be added. Please refer to the covenant, you will notice God is the covenant maker and enforcer, we are the beneficiaries. This is not to say those being saved do nothing, as the response of a good tree is to bear good fruit. Yet this fruit is not of our doing, it is God that is working in us.

 

[nothead]

When did I state it is not necessary to pick up your cross daily? If you understand anything I am conveying it should be this point. We are saved by God, not our actions. This in no way states the condition of Shema no longer applies in the life of the believer.

The CONDITION of Shema is to love God with all. The ALL in Shema means to be ready at all times to do the Will of God HERE AND NOW. So then saying we are saved by God not OUR actions is contradictory and self-defeating.

And Reformed Munchin Theology.

You can't help saying to act and then your acts are not salvific. Let me put a new concept on you, a new Reformed Theology on you. How did nothead come to this, and he ain't no genius?

He only knows the implications of certain basic things. IF Shema is true THEN Shema says to love God with ALL. The ALL means right here, right now be ready to speak God's Word, ACT God's work, or DO otherwise the will of God even if this is THINKING sir.

So then the "works" of Paul in juxtaposition were....ta da....not the Holy Spirit works of faith...rather the neutral, general works which do not correlate to God's immediate will.

See, God allows for the disciples to eat grains of kernal on the Sabbath. Buuuut, according to traditional Jewish Law this was NOT ALLOWED. Remember in Numbers that guy who picked up sticks on the Sabbath?

DEAD.

So then these kinds of WORKS are what Paul meant. You AIN'T getting no kudos from God for doing these unless they have a context of relation.

Context of relation, now what could this be? A paradigm nothead made up to CONFUSE YOU? Nein, herr JustaName. Works with impetus are faith-works. And they will result in kudos.

To say our works in general cannot save us is wrong. ALL WE DO is for the glory of God and the hope to participate in. What you think God has a BED in heaven awaiting?

No we do the same things up there as down here. Works of faith, sir. These are directed to by the Holy Spirit and given power to do by the Holy Spirit and so then yeah God DOES IT, finishes it and completes it, giving the supernatural dimension to all things we do in life...

...and I'll take any reward given for this kind of WORK. But I did not do it for a one-to-one reward. For Christians our reward is LAY TER.

LAY TER. Let's be honest. Most of Law is the compunction to WAIT for our kickback and most BRIBES by the Devil entail immediate pleasure.

And a bit of reference...
The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").
Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.

Maimonides changed the wording in order to combat Christianity...Echad is the unified one (like the Church, or one flesh between man and woman), whereas yachid is solitary oneness. The point here is Shema is not in conflict Trinitarian theology as you so want it to be, in fact it supports it.

Echad is the number one. Stop saying Shalom if you can't figure out the first number in the Hebrew Alphabet. Aleph. I mean Number string. Echad.

My point in the YHWH reference is Jesus is referred to as the Covenant God of Israel.

Never. Jeremiah refers to the city of Jerusalem as YHWH our God. So, then it is metaphorical. Means OF YHWH.

I mean the shed blood of Jesus our Messiah is sufficient in it's own right for the salvation of any believer, simply as the scriptures state, nothing need be added. Please refer to the covenant, you will notice God is the covenant maker and enforcer, we are the beneficiaries. This is not to say those being saved do nothing, as the response of a good tree is to bear good fruit. Yet this fruit is not of our doing, it is God that is working in us.

NOTHING BE ADDED?? Not for the pleader next to Jesus on the Cross...he gonna die soon, what can he do about it?

But for you and for me, God gives us Covenant. What is added is our end of Covenant. Your theology is worse than 101. It is Wrong 101 Theology.

 

[justaname]

nothead,

Did you overlook the position I formulated? Perhaps if I present it in a different manner it will be clearer.

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is unified [Echad]!" Completely understandable and relatable.
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is the number one [Echad]!" Well this seems silly.

Perhaps different scriptures will help shed light on interpreting "echad"

Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness... this seems to speak of some kind of unity; I never heard the number one speak, perhaps it talks like this because it wants to be like all the rest of the numbers.

For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh...I don't believe this is saying they become the number one flesh, unification seems more plausible here.

Maybe Jesus can clear this up for us...
I and the Father are One...well Jesus seems to be speaking of some type of unification...

If you want to go around telling people God is the number one that is your prerogative. I will continue telling people the Godhead has revealed Himself as a Trinity. Shema agrees with us both here, yet my God lives and is more than just another number.

This is all I have time to respond to for now...

Shalom

 

[nothead]

nothead,

Did you overlook the position I formulated? Perhaps if I present it in a different manner it will be clearer.

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is unified [Echad]!" Completely understandable and relatable.
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is the number one [Echad]!" Well this seems silly.

No, the UNIFIED ECHAD is not Echad. Echad I will remind you is the NUMBER ONE, or 'alone' or 'unique' or 'by itself' or 'single' 838 out of 845 times according to Strongs.

The only possible COMPOUND ONE according to the TRIN Strong is 7 out of 845 times. SOME, united.

And no, the UNIFIED ECHAD is wholly ambiguous. Didn't I just say that the Shema when given to the Israelites crossing into the Land of Milk and Honey was given as PESHAT LAW??

This means simple and plain. Not ambiguous, not a mystery, not something left out or unsaid. The first question a Jew would ask about your UNIFIED ECHAD:

Unified to what, and who? Unified to which others? Unified HOW? These are all left on a string for your terp, INCOMPREHENSIBLE to anyone much less a child. Why God say to reiterate this Law every 7 years so that a CHILD will know and understand to Fear the Living God? Since God shows THIS CHILD the Land of Promise first (His love) and then this child is TOLD who gave it, and this child is told to LOVE this God as the Shema requires. Love back from the love God gave.

Deut 31

[SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
[SIZE=.75em]11 [/SIZE]When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear theLord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

So then I am not saying God = One. God is saying He is One, and the 'one' is a modifier of subject. An adjective. A description of. And this is the NUMBER ONE, not any indescribable, incomprehensible, never explained unity.

Of all things, this argument has to be somewhat retarded from trin-end. And the UNTHINKING end at that.

Perhaps different scriptures will help shed light on interpreting "echad"

Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness... this seems to speak of some kind of unity; I never heard the number one speak, perhaps it talks like this because it wants to be like all the rest of the numbers.

Wish I had a nickel for every time I see this argument.

The rabbinical terp here is that God is speaking to others in the Kingdom of God. Easy. NO rabbinical Jew ever thought he was speaking to two other Gods.

For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh...I don't believe this is saying they become the number one flesh, unification seems more plausible here.

metaphorical 'one.' Metaphorical since the unified flesh becomes undone when the man and woman stop the reproductive event. Don't ask me any more. I don't get graphic about sex.

As a metaphorical unity of sex, it behooves you not to analogize God in this manner.

Maybe Jesus can clear this up for us...
I and the Father are One...well Jesus seems to be speaking of some type of unification...

For about the fifth time on this forum since I got here, the HEN of unity with the Father is the exact same HEN of unity he prays for believers, who em....um...uh....

....are not God themselves, ANY of them not even Stephen or Mary, or Martha or Barnabus or Luke or Mark or John or Matthew...

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[SIZE=.75em]23 [/SIZE]I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And furthermore ELOHIM THEOLOGY must explain Jn 10; there is no other way to terp it.

Repeating again: "ye are gods" cannot mean anything comprehensive unless you know the word 'gods' is really ELOHIM. And as men of Torah promised immortality, before God took this priviledge away, in Psalm 82, they were 'sons of God.'

And Jesus is NOT claiming ultimate deity at all by bringing up 'elohim' in heaven. These beings are created too, just as he is.

He is claiming the OPPOSITE, that he is 'elohim' since the Word of God comes to him too.

If you want to go around telling people God is the number one that is your prerogative. I will continue telling people the Godhead has revealed Himself as a Trinity. Shema agrees with us both here, yet my God lives and is more than just another number.

Pagan.
Shalom

 

[justaname]

No, the UNIFIED ECHAD is not Echad. Echad I will remind you is the NUMBER ONE, or 'alone' or 'unique' or 'by itself' or 'single' 838 out of 845 times according to Strongs.

The only possible COMPOUND ONE according to the TRIN Strong is 7 out of 845 times. SOME, united.

And no, the UNIFIED ECHAD is wholly ambiguous. Didn't I just say that the Shema when given to the Israelites crossing into the Land of Milk and Honey was given as PESHAT LAW??

This means simple and plain. Not ambiguous, not a mystery, not something left out or unsaid. The first question a Jew would ask about your UNIFIED ECHAD:

Unified to what, and who? Unified to which others? Unified HOW? These are all left on a string for your terp, INCOMPREHENSIBLE to anyone much less a child. Why God say to reiterate this Law every 7 years so that a CHILD will know and understand to Fear the Living God? Since God shows THIS CHILD the Land of Promise first (His love) and then this child is TOLD who gave it, and this child is told to LOVE this God as the Shema requires. Love back from the love God gave.

Deut 31

[SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
[SIZE=.75em]11 [/SIZE]When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear theLord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

So then I am not saying God = One. God is saying He is One, and the 'one' is a modifier of subject. An adjective. A description of. And this is the NUMBER ONE, not any indescribable, incomprehensible, never explained unity.

Of all things, this argument has to be somewhat retarded from trin-end. And the UNTHINKING end at that.





Wish I had a nickel for every time I see this argument.

The rabbinical terp here is that God is speaking to others in the Kingdom of God. Easy. NO rabbinical Jew ever thought he was speaking to two other Gods.




metaphorical 'one.' Metaphorical since the unified flesh becomes undone when the man and woman stop the reproductive event. Don't ask me any more. I don't get graphic about sex.

As a metaphorical unity of sex, it behooves you not to analogize God in this manner.






For about the fifth time on this forum since I got here, the HEN of unity with the Father is the exact same HEN of unity he prays for believers, who em....um...uh....

....are not God themselves, ANY of them not even Stephen or Mary, or Martha or Barnabus or Luke or Mark or John or Matthew...

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[SIZE=.75em]23 [/SIZE]I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And furthermore ELOHIM THEOLOGY must explain Jn 10; there is no other way to terp it.

Repeating again: "ye are gods" cannot mean anything comprehensive unless you know the word 'gods' is really ELOHIM. And as men of Torah promised immortality, before God took this priviledge away, in Psalm 82, they were 'sons of God.'

And Jesus is NOT claiming ultimate deity at all by bringing up 'elohim' in heaven. These beings are created too, just as he is.

He is claiming the OPPOSITE, that he is 'elohim' since the Word of God comes to him too.



Pagan.
Shalom

It is clear that "echad" is used in Shema, not "yachid." You attempt to explain "yachid" into the text when it is not there. This is why Maimonides changed it.

As far as your acceptance of the rabbinical interpretations, Jewish rabbis still seek the Messiah. Invalid argument.

As far as your Hen here Jesus is not bringing them in the Godhead, He prayed for their unification (unification of the church) just as or like God is unified in Jesus.

The Word of God did not "come" to Jesus, Jesus is the Logos...

 

[nothead]

It is clear that "echad" is used in Shema, not "yachid." You attempt to explain "yachid" into the text when it is not there. This is why Maimonides changed it.

Yachid is rarely used by anyone, and yachad means a compound unity. Yachid used only 12 times in all of Bible. And God did NOT use yachad for Shema.

Echad still means by Strong's 99.2% of the time a singular numerical 'one.' My argument is 99% sealed, sir. Flail away at your leisure. From here on out an infant counting to number one still knows more than you about echad.

By the way, I disagree with Strong's 7 times. A compound forest is the metaphor FOREST having a compound number of trees. But ONE FOREST means a singular unit of forest, not a compound forest of compound trees. Here Strong sullies himself once again.

As far as your acceptance of the rabbinical interpretations, Jewish rabbis still seek the Messiah. Invalid argument.

Jesus said the first command is Shema in Mark 12. Valid argument which trumps your 'valid' argument about my 'invalid argument.'

As far as your Hen here Jesus is not bringing them in the Godhead, He prayed for their unification (unification of the church) just as or like God is unified in Jesus.

Neither is he referring to a unity of Godhead in Jn 10. The EN prepositions in both passages assure this. Also you did not address my Elohim Theology.
Someday it will be famous. No, nothead won't be famous. ELOHIM THEOLOGY will be famous. I did not think it up.

The Word of God did not "come" to Jesus, Jesus is the Logos...

How can Jesus be the Logos and have the Logos on his lips at the same time, genius?