Is Reality an Illusion?

[Eternally Grateful]

...I see what you mean though..do you mean they use this verse to support their own doctrine?

And NO...I’m not referring to Epi here.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14​

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King James Version​

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12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

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◄ 1 Peter 1:23 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

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The problem is I think we all think God speaks to us and we have the truth.

So to use this as a reason people do not agree with you is nonsensical. and in my view kind of hypocritical.. What makes us think we are right?

 

[Ritajanice]

The problem is I think we all think God speaks to us and we have the truth.

So to use this as a reason people do not agree with you is nonsensical. and in my view kind of hypocritical.. What makes us think we are right?

Yes, indeed.and I 100% agree.....I’m learning that I am not right...only God is right.

We all need each other as we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ....we have our ups and downs....that’s part of life...

 

[Behold]

14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him (or contradictory nonsense) : neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We'll here is your shot at that verse.. you posted.

Simply explain to the Forum WHY... "Jesus who saved us, keeps us saved..... no matter how we behave after we are saved".

Explain that, so that we can understand if you understand anything about The Cross.

And no, this is not the time for you to RANT about "a higher walk in Zion".. So, keep the Book of Mormon out of your rambling answer... -

>......-thanks.

And its also not the time for you to try to dodge and deflect, by dragging up "OSAS", as your way to keep from showing us that you have absolutely no understanding of the Cross of Christ, at all.


Take your time. @Episkopos

I'll check back.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Behold is back...I have missed you Brother!!...

 

[Behold]

@Behold is back...I have missed you Brother!!...

- be blessed Sista...

Was just scanning a few forum topics.,
Noticed that St.Steven was trying to confuse and abuse a verse for everyone, as usual, as His Thread's topic.
Then i came here and read Epi's normal attempt to play the Spiritual Lighthouse in reverse...so, i asked him a simple question.

 

[Behold]

The problem is I think we all think God speaks to us and we have the truth.

Every time you open a NT, God is speaking to us, on the pages.
He wrote it, .. they just wrote it down, for the most part.

So to use this as a reason people do not agree with you is nonsensical. and in my view kind of hypocritical.. What makes us think we are right?

WE can know we are "of the truth", first of all because Jesus IS THE Truth, ... John 14:6, and He is IN US.
This is one of the PROOFs that we are born again. = We are "OF the Truth" because we are "in Christ".
"Christ IN YOU< the Hope of Glory".

See... the word of God does not make you RIGHT.. It makes you Righteous and True.
The effect of the Spirit working in you, as you study the word, is that its truth becomes yours.
So, when we have that.. we have the truth in us.

that verse says... "a workman that needeth not to be ASHAMED"...

And how is it that a Believer is a shame to the NT?

Its when their Theology is confused and has issues with God's Grace.

Can a believer be deceived?
A.) most are.

And that is because of one simple thing....
= Its a belief issue, that is related to not understanding GRACE. (Hebrews 13:9).

And once the born again believer, has come to the perfected understanding of God's Grace as Christ's Cross, then they are safe from 'Doctrines of Devils."
Calvin can't get then you then.
The Pope can't get you then,.
None of the cults can get your mind, once your mind is renewed = revelation knowledge regarding God's GRACe.

See, when you truly know what Jesus has accomplished on the Cross, that God has ETERNALLY IMPUTED to US, the born again.. when this is fully realized as the LIGHT of revelation, then CALVIN and the POPE and the MORMONS and the JW's and all these "cross confused" CULTS, and their MINISTERS..... can not infect your mind with their THEOLOGY.. on the FORUM, or from the PULPIT or in the Video or Commentary.

And they CAN until you have "worked out your salvation" and that is by "walking in the Spirit" and that is all done in your BELIEVING.
Is is right, or is it wrong?
If its wrong then the Cult's will get you.

See, wrong theology is a spiritual sickness and it'll may make you very sick, in your head, in your heart, and in your life.

The ANTIDOTE for that, is to not become one of those, and the way you do that, is to "get your heart established with God's Grace".

= THE REVELATION OF it..
Hebrews 13:9
Once you are there, then your mind is "one" with NT Truth., = Paul's Doctrine... and then the Devil can't get you caught up in his "doctrines of Devils" .. reader.


Ok then..

-Shalom,Shalom

 

[Ritajanice]

- be blessed Sista...

Was just scanning a few forum topics.,
Noticed that St.Steven was trying to confuse and abuse a verse for everyone, as usual, as His Thread's topic.
Then i came here and read Epi's normal attempt to play the Spiritual Lighthouse in reverse...so, i asked him a simple question.

I Love You Brother!!.....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There is no such thing as "within time and space" in the way you mean it here. Both time and space are ideas not ontological things. The concept of time is a convention of language used to communicate information related to the duration and sequence of events relative to other events. Space is likewise a convention of language used to communicate information related to the size and location of objects relative to other objects. Neither exists in the ontological sense but rather only as ideas inside a thinking mind.

Welcome to the Christianity Board.
It's okay to just jump in there with your guns loaded, but it is good to be humble, gentle and kind. I have always been quick to jump to conclusions, move in, take him to the rim, give him an elbow , then slam dunk it in his face. Ouch, that's not nice ... well some deserve it. I am learning to be more gentle, take a few hits and just go to foul line.

Back to this concept of space and time.
God created the physical universe as we know it, including space and time. Time itself is referred to by some as the 4th dimension. Einstein proved that it can be altered by speed or gravity and location I think. We measure time by minutes , hours, days and years based on the daily fixed rotation of the earth and revolutions around the sun. However, God is not confined to our time domain, He operates outside the physical universe. That He can determine the future and see it, is beyond our comprehension. Needless say, in the spiritual realm, time must be measured differently - moment to moment, butbcould not be altered by gravity or speed. And obviously when He destroys the first heavens and earth and replaces them with the New Jerusalem, time will also have a different measurement; since there will be no sun, moon or earth spinning into days and nights.
So, there must be a different construct of Heaven, the two realms are separate, yet we exist now on both. That is in an ontologically sense, concerning the nature of being. But matter exists their too. People walk around and feel and touch solid objects. I think it looks like earth, all the beauty that we see - only perfect and obviously extra- dimensional.


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[L.A.M.B.]

Reality is what actually exist whereas an illusion is something wrongly perceived by ones senses.

Does God exist ?

Hebrews11:1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed BY THE WORD OF GOD, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Has any man ever seen God?

Jesus said it is a future event;
Matthew 5:8. “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they SHALL SEE GOD.”

Does this mean it is an illusion or will be our reality ?

1 Corinthians 13:10-13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Then their are those whom live under a delusion, discounting God's truth, believing a lie.
Why?
God said bc of the hardness of their heart, their desire to have pleasures in righteousness, he would send those a delusion!

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So it should be Reality vs A Delusion, imo. God is not an illusion, a shadow or figment of our imagination but is the reality we all shall face at judgment by God !

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Windmillcharge]

The matrix?

Which is imaginary, one does not prove things by making up stories.

 

[Azim]

@Episkopos , do you believe God intended this reality to always be a simulation/training ground? Or did that come to be, after the fall in the garden?

On another thought, those who don't believe in God, or have yet to be born again, continue to live this life according to the illusion the world offers. It is not until one is truly born again, by the will of God, where He gives us our spiritual eyes, which finally makes sense of where we are from the eternal perspective?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Post in thread 'Is Reality an Illusion?' #109


This right here added by a self righteous narcissist whom thinks they are the only one that has understanding and mocks all others while supposedly begging to "DISCUSS ONLY THE WORD NOT THE POSTER is why I cannot tolerate said poster, who retaliates in form of which it accuses of others!

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos , do you believe God intended this reality to always be a simulation/training ground? Or did that come to be, after the fall in the garden?

Good question. When we sin unto death we can't remain in the eternal reality. This is by the mercy of God. The angels who sin are eternally condemned. So then rather than condemn us, we are cast into the simulation for training.

There is no sin permissible in God's presence/realm. The modern liberalism concerning sin has taken away any sense of the fear of the Lord. Just listen to the self-love in all the ranting and raving that has God being indifferent to sin. Those who embody a self-righteous tendency do so because they think they can get away with what others can't...that they are somehow special because of their beliefs....about themselves being special, as if God was a respecter of persons.

On another thought, those who don't believe in God, or have yet to be born again, continue to live this life according to the illusion the world offers. It is not until one is truly born again, by the will of God, where He gives us our spiritual eyes, which finally makes sense of where we are from the eternal perspective?

Yes. And we take that deposit (aravon) or earnest of grace and use that to go to God to get the full measure of grace that causes us to walk in the eternal reality...to walk in the Spirit. Jesus is both the author and finisher of faith (not OUR faith ....HIS faith) The translators keep adding in or taking away words to suit the ecclesiastic position. The "our" is added in...it's not in the Greek. He adds grace upon grace.


And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. John 1:16


....or "He gives MORE grace." But that takes faith and humility which are as rare as the gold of ophir in our time.


"But he gives more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble." James 4:6

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be multiplied to you.

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Pet. 1:2-4

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

Can science challenge the church?

Is Reality an Illusion?​

Well, it all depends on one's definition of "reality"
and on one's definition of "illusion".

However, the following question will help one to decide for oneself.

Let me ask you the following question, and let us know your answer, please.​

My question pertains to the physical materialistic explanation of the mechanism (process) of sensory perception.​

For the sake of simplicity, let’s consider the process of seeing only, because our sense of sight is dominant in our human experience.​

THE PHYSICAL MATERIALISTIC EXPLANATION OF OUR EXPERIENCE OF SEEING:​

Please, always correct me if I am wrong, the long story short, photons hit the bottom of our eyes, and as a result of it electric signals are being sent from eyes along the optic nerve to the visual cortex. The visual cortex, somehow, manages to do a very complex processing of these electric signals, and the end result of this processing is us seeing the external physical reality, OUT THERE. The external physical reality OUT THERE, as opposed to the internal physical reality IN HERE, meaning inside the visual cortex, where our seeing happens.​

Our internal experience of seeing (a produced image of external physical reality), according to the scientific materialism, can’t be happening anywhere else than inside our visual cortex, similar to us being able to see our night dreams inside our sleeping brain. Our night dreams can’t possibly be happening in our bedroom, being visible to others looking at us sleeping.​

So, how does it really work in scientific detail?​

How exactly does it happen, according to mainstream physics, that we exclusively see OUTSIDE of our brains, and not exclusively INSIDE our brains only, like when we sleep and dream?​

Because the irrefutable scientific fact is that we all see the external physical reality where it really is, OUT THERE, outside of our visual cortex exclusively, and never inside of it, like when we sleep and dream.​

Is it a wrong, or a stupid question?​

Is it only me, who makes a problem out of something obvious that is not a problem at all?​

Well, I am not alone. Dr. William P. Byers, Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Statistics wrote:​

“ We consider it to be obvious that the natural world is something exterior of us and independent of our thoughts and sense impressions; we believe in a mind-independent reality. Paradoxically, we do not recognize that the belief in a mind-independent reality is itself mind-dependent. Logically, we cannot work our way free of the bubble we live in, which consists of all of our sense impression and thoughts. The pristine world of clarity, the natural external world independent of the observer, is merely a hypothesis that cannot, even in principle, ever be verified. To say that the natural world is ambiguous is to highlight this assumption. It is to emphasize that the feeling that there is a natural world ‘out there’ that is the same for all people at all times, is an assumption that is not self-evident. This is not to embrace a kind of solipsism and to deny the reality of the world. It is to emphasize that the entire natural external world is intimately intertwined with our conscious self-aware mind.”​

 

[Episkopos]

Well, it all depends on one's definition of "reality"
and on one's definition of "illusion".

However, the following question will help one to decide for oneself.

Let me ask you the following question, and let us know your answer, please.​

My question pertains to the physical materialistic explanation of the mechanism (process) of sensory perception.​

For the sake of simplicity, let’s consider the process of seeing only, because our sense of sight is dominant in our human experience.​

THE PHYSICAL MATERIALISTIC EXPLANATION OF OUR EXPERIENCE OF SEEING:​

Please, always correct me if I am wrong, the long story short, photons hit the bottom of our eyes, and as a result of it electric signals are being sent from eyes along the optic nerve to the visual cortex. The visual cortex, somehow, manages to do a very complex processing of these electric signals, and the end result of this processing is us seeing the external physical reality, OUT THERE. The external physical reality OUT THERE, as opposed to the internal physical reality IN HERE, meaning inside the visual cortex, where our seeing happens.​

Our internal experience of seeing (a produced image of external physical reality), according to the scientific materialism, can’t be happening anywhere else than inside our visual cortex, similar to us being able to see our night dreams inside our sleeping brain. Our night dreams can’t possibly be happening in our bedroom, being visible to others looking at us sleeping.​

So, how does it really work in scientific detail?​

How exactly does it happen, according to mainstream physics, that we exclusively see OUTSIDE of our brains, and not exclusively INSIDE our brains only, like when we sleep and dream?​

Because the irrefutable scientific fact is that we all see the external physical reality where it really is, OUT THERE, outside of our visual cortex exclusively, and never inside of it, like when we sleep and dream.​

Is it a wrong, or a stupid question?​

Is it only me, who makes a problem out of something obvious that is not a problem at all?​

Well, I am not alone. Dr. William P. Byers, Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Statistics wrote:​

“ We consider it to be obvious that the natural world is something exterior of us and independent of our thoughts and sense impressions; we believe in a mind-independent reality. Paradoxically, we do not recognize that the belief in a mind-independent reality is itself mind-dependent. Logically, we cannot work our way free of the bubble we live in, which consists of all of our sense impression and thoughts. The pristine world of clarity, the natural external world independent of the observer, is merely a hypothesis that cannot, even in principle, ever be verified. To say that the natural world is ambiguous is to highlight this assumption. It is to emphasize that the feeling that there is a natural world ‘out there’ that is the same for all people at all times, is an assumption that is not self-evident. This is not to embrace a kind of solipsism and to deny the reality of the world. It is to emphasize that the entire natural external world is intimately intertwined with our conscious self-aware mind.”​

"while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Cor. 4:18

 

[Ritajanice]

"while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Cor. 4:18

Hi Epi, how would we know this?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi, how would we know this?

This is a matter of what the faith of Christ is. Faith is the evidence of things not seen...not a speculation, not a religious opinion, not a theological surmising. It is an evidence...a sure thing because we actually experience the Lord the way we read about in the bible. Faith SEES. Faith experiences God in holiness. Faith translates us into the kingdom realm where we walk without sin. When we go to God for the full measure of grace we get the necessary spiritual faculties to both enter into and see the kingdom realm. Jesus is both the author and finisher of faith. Jesus completes faith in us so that we can walk as He did.

The kingdom of God is love, joy and peace in the Spirit. When the Spirit is entered into in depth, there is a supernatural light that emanates from our eyes...to see what normal faculties don't see. We can call this the "helmet" of salvation. That light that we see in real time is the divine love shed abroad from an overflow of grace in us by the power of the Spirit. Out of our bellies flow rivers of living water. It causes us to see as Jesus sees, to love as He loves....to walk as He walked. Of course this is as rare as hen's teeth in today's church. And this was prophesied...that people would no longer tolerate sound doctrine. It just sounds too impossible for the carnal mind to grasp. But faith gets us into the game, so to speak, where we hold that all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us. The Cains that fill the churches will revile the person who speaks the truth and testifies to the truth. They are not in the race...they have fallen away. There are not many who will affirm the truth that goes beyond their own experience. People now limit God to what they already know and accept....because false doctrine has caused them to forsake actual faith and the fear of God.

So then the true faith OF Christ is safely out of reach of those who entertain a self-love and an unbelief in the power of grace. So then everything is as it should be.

 

[Behold]

Good question. When we sin unto death we can't remain in the eternal reality.

Both unbelievers and the born again, have a type of eternal life.
There is LIFE, for the Spirit, that is inside the BODY.... that will exist forever, after the body dies.

The difference is... for the born again who are now "one with God" "In Christ"...= this is Eternal Life spiritually born again = eternally joined to God and Christ.

Whereas unbelievers, never born again, ... will continue to spiritually exist after they DIE..,. but, their eternal life is not found in God, its found as this...

John 3:36.

The Wrath of God, remains on them, and HELL and the LAKE of Fire are eternity for them..

The GRAVE is not the end of the spirit in a person.
Its just the resting place for their DEAD body.

we are cast into the simulation for training.

"The simulation for training" is your Sci-Fi "acid trip" magic mushroom Theology, apparently... as nothing else can explain such a bizarre unscriptural fantasy as what you are telling these members and Mods.
L.Ron Hubbard has nothing on your completely self devised and self deceived Theology of the absurd.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thank you for taking the time to explain. @Episkopos ,God Bless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Both unbelievers and the born again, have a type of eternal life.
There is LIFE, for the Spirit, that is inside the BODY.... that will exist forever, after the body dies.

The difference is... for the born again who are now "one with God" "In Christ"...= this is Eternal Life spiritually born again = eternally joined to God and Christ.

Whereas unbelievers, never born again, ... will continue to spiritually exist after they DIE..,. but, their eternal life is not found in God, its found as this...

John 3:36.

The Wrath of God, remains on them, and HELL and the LAKE of Fire are eternity for them..

The GRAVE is not the end of the spirit in a person.
Its just the resting place for their DEAD body.



"The simulation for training" is your Sci-Fi "acid trip" magic mushroom Theology, apparently... as nothing else can explain such a bizarre unscriptural fantasy as what you are telling these members and Mods.
L.Ron Hubbard has nothing on your completely self devised and self deceived Theology of the absurd.

scripture is clear,

we are in adam (dead)

or we are in Christ (life)

There is no other state. Yet people want to believe we are tossed to and fro from state to state, and have to make sure we are in the right state when we die.

What kind of Hope is that? what kind of promise is that? what Kind of perfectly loving father is that? Where is your faith?

its sad