Is Reality an Illusion?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
As you can see, this posts boasts in self.
He thinks he can achieve sinless perfection. And that is how we achieve eternal life.
He speaks against religion. Yet his belief is based on religion. (What he does)
it has no faith in the power of God to save to the utmost those that are lost.
Not based on what they do or how good they are.
but based on the cross.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The born again, are "IN Christ".. having become a "new Creation in Christ".
So, Spiritually, the born again exist in God, who is "A Spirit".
This is restored spiritual union with God, that Adam lost.
So, the 2nd Adam came down here to UNDO what Adam lost, and from the Cross, Jesus has provided the Only WAY for us to get there, and remain.
John 14:6
Now,
Where is God?
Where is Christ?
Well, God is in Heaven, and Jesus is sitting next to Him.
Why is He sitting? Its because "IT IS FINISHED">.. so, Jesus is sitting now....as the finished work of Christ on the Cross is COMPLETED as our "Gift of Salvation" and "Gift of Righteousness".
When He stands up again, it'll be to come back to take us UP THERE...in our New Body.
Now..
Were are the born again?
They are "SEATED.......(in Christ) in Heavenly Places"...,right now.
Now here is the mystery.....
= "Christ IN YOU... the hope of Glory" and "Glory" is Heaven.
So, what does the carnal mind think about all this?
The carnal mind thinks..."well, if im good today, if im perfect... then I dont break fellowship with God again .. as then i have to go and confess and get that back.. i hope".....
See....That is how the natural mind thinks, when it tries to understand CHRISTianity.
The natural mind... thinks...,.= what i do, defines my Christianity... And that is not the case.
See Reader, its what Christ has completed on the Cross that is given to us when we BELIEVE< that is what DEFINES US in God's perspective.
See, what defines our CHRISTianity is what God has caused us to eternally become.... "in Christ".
And we are to get HIS Mind, on that one.. and keep it.... or we are not in the renewed mind..... yet.
Logikos
Active Member
Sorry! I didn't see this post until today! I don't think it showed up in my notifications. If it did, I missed it somehow!
There is no verse that even implies the creation of time. Which is a good thing, actually because such a verse would present insurmountable evidence that the bible is self-contradictory fantasy. On the contrary, the creation account is full to the brim with time referrences. Also, we never read anywhere anything that hints at the notion that God exists outside of time. It simply is not something that the bible teaches or that the Jews believed. Indeed, there is no evidence that anyone in the church believed it prior to Augustine importing the idea into the church during the 4th century.
It is useful to use time as a fourth mathematical dimension but that does not mean that time exists physically.
More or less true. As minutes and hours are to time so inches and feet are to distance. Distance, however, does not exist except as a concept. Empty space is the separation of things that exist (i.e. objects) and is spoken of in terms of distance and size relative to other objects. Likewise, time is the separation of events and is spoken of in terms of duration and sequences. Both are conventions of language, not physical things.
This is your doctrine. The bible does not teach this.
It isn't! You just stated it and so how can it be beyond our ability to comprehend?
What it is is a contradiction. Existence presupposes duration. Duration is what time is. Existence without duration is non-existence. Therefore to say that God exists outside of time is to that He both exists and doesn't exist, which is to contradict yourself.
Clocks are effected by gravity and speed, not time.
The measurement of time is quite arbitrary and can be done by keeping track of any regularly occurring event. In the New Heaven, months with be measured based on which one of the twelve fruits is ripe on the Tree of Life.
Revelation 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Sounds like time to me!
There is no question that the New Heaven and New Earth will be quite physical as will our glorified bodies be. Indeed, there is no good reason to believe that, apart from the effects of sin and evil, the experience there will be of a completely different category as what we experience now. The Earth and the rest of creation were, after all, created "very good". Not that it won't be significantly different but just not COMPLETELY different. We do know for certain that Jesus has a glorified physical body and that we will as well and that those bodies will consume food, including the fruits produced by the Tree of Life on a monthly basis.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Not the creation of time, the measurement of time was introduced, the evening + the morning = 1 day. One revolution of the earth that did not exist.
The construct of time on earth is physical. Einstein proved it can be altered by speed and gravity.
God is not confined to the universal physics He created, revolution of the earth around the sun ...
Agree. We can accurately measure time here. But in heaven, how?
The Bible teaches God has foreknowledge, knows the future. That is outside our time construct. Explain that.
I don't comprehend how time is measured in heaven, nor do I comprehend God's foreknowledge. It's a higher existence, the spiritual realm, beyond my comprehension. Ànd btw, the Bible states we only know in part, dimly.
No, He transcends into our physical reality from a spiritual reality, whoch is different in many ways.
Not clocks, time. You don't indera5and Einsteins theory.
Fair enough. That will be our basis to measure time. No clocks, just the fruit trees. Will we be sitting by the river reminiscing a time in the past, 75,432 apple seasons ago? Or, will we set a date to meet when the cherries are ready to harvest?
Frankly, I don't think we will care about time. Likely it won't have much meaning or value.
Here kn earth, we lose time, waste time, because we only have so much and then it's over. We miss an appointment or an opportunity and we don't get it back. We grow old and closer to death. Time has value. Up there, it won't have any value nor mean much.
Or... is Illusion our Reality?
Maybe one must drop some acid to twist their minds to worry about such stuff
He never proved any such thing... he produced a bunch of theories about different things, so didn't "proved" any of them.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
His theory has been proven.
From Wikipedia;
"This has been demonstrated by noting that atomic clocks at differing altitudes (and thus different gravitational potential) will eventually show different times.
Gravitational time dilation was first described by Albert Einstein in 1907[3] as a consequence of special relativity in accelerated frames of reference. In general relativity, it is considered to be a difference in the passage of proper time at different positions as described by a metric tensor of spacetime. The existence of gravitational time dilation was first confirmed directly by the Pound–Rebka experiment in 1959, and later refined by Gravity Probe A and other experiments."
Logikos
Active Member
That is irrelevant. The Genesis account speaks of the creation in terms of time. Genesis was not the first book written that included the concept of time, nor does it teach that time itself was created.
No, it didn't prove any such thing. There is really great reasons why it still called the THEORY of relativity. If it proves anything it proves that motion effects clocks, which, again, isn't the same thing.
I invite you to read the following...
Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute
He is not confined by the physical universe, quite so. But if His existence has any duration or sequence, then He experience what we call time. Again, time is not a thing or a substance, it is a concept. It is just a collection words we use to talk about the duration and sequence of events. Even if no reference to the measurement of time was ever made, if God experiences one event and then another, then the concept of time applies to His existence.
I answered this already.
At least one way will be the twelve fruits of the Tree of Knowledge, only one of which is ripe at a time - one fruit per month. So there will be a bannana month and an apple month and a pomegranate month and a pear month, etc. Of course, I don't believe that the fruits are going to be earthly fruits like bannana and pomegranates. The point is merely that you get a different fruit each month.
How is that not time?
Well, the bible doesn't teach that.
It teaches that God declares the end from the beginning. It does not teach that God sneaks a peak into the future and therefore is capable of doing so. On the contrary, the future does not exist and so God does not go to the future to see what's going to happen and then come back to the present to report what He found. The bible flat out does not teach anything remotely similar to that.
What the bible teaches is that God knows the heart of every person and that He knows every knowable thing about not only the people involved, but also every pertinent point of information that pertains to a particular situation. He is also infinitely wise and all power finds it's fountainhead in Him and so He is able to work through, around and in spite of whomever or whatever circumstance in order to accomplish that which He desires to accomplish.
Having said that, God DOES NOT always get what He wants and there is more than one prophesy in scripture that did not come to pass.
It is not necessary to fully comprehend every detail of doctrine. There is some obscure doctrine about the number three that comes to mind.
However, this is not to be used as an excuse to accept the irrational (not to mention the unbiblical) as truth, especially when there are perfectly reasonable (i.e. rational) alternatives.
Further, I Cor. 13:11-12 isn't talking about cryptic doctrines that cannot be verbalized without contradicting ourselves. It is talking about how well we know God and how well we know what righteousness is and how to love both God and each other. It is not intended to give carte blanche to any wild-eyed doctrine that someone wants to expose no matter whether it makes any sense or not.
Okay, well I made an argument to the contrary. You can try to make an argument to refute it if you like, but simply repeating your doctrine doesn't count as a rebuttal.
It is clocks and I while I'm no PhD'd expert and am not a mathematician, I was a physics major while in college and spent much of my early adult life thinking about just about every aspect of modern scientific cosmology. I assure you that I understand his theory very well indeed and what it is talking about is motion's effect on clocks. Einstein himself would not argue with that. He would simply claim that they are the same thing.
I never said that there wouldn't be clocks (i.e. as in the sort of clock that you hang on a wall or wear on your wrist or whatever). There may very well be. My point was in reference to your mention of the lack of a Sun or Moon. There doesn't need to be a Sun or Moon, just any regular occurring event will do.
Probably not in those precise terms but, in one way or another, I'm very sure that something along those lines will occur, yes.
Based on what?
You speak very boldly about an existence that you yourself state you know next to nothing about. I wouldn't be so sure!
Just because we won't die in Heaven doesn't mean that every opportunity that comes along will have a forever shelf-life. We have no idea what God has in store for us nor whether some parts of it will be temporary in nature.
Note, by the way, the implied temporal nature of Heaven in the way you speak of it. You speak of time having value here because of its limited nature during this life time and postulate that there it will have next to no value because of it endless and inexhaustible supply. Do you see what I mean? You don't speak of Heaven as being time-less but rather the reverse. That isn't by mistake either but rather by necessity. You literally CANNOT speak about a time-less existence without contradicting yourself and so people intuitively don't do it.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with Pastor Bob Enyart's postulation. I favor Einstein's. Plus Bob has an old earth (billions of years) view. His concept of time is already deceptive and likely his interpretation of Genesis, which go hand in hand. But that is another long and drawn out topic. I AM A YEC.
Never said there wasn't any time in heaven. I SAID, GOD IS OUTSIDE OF OUR TIME DOMAIN (construct).
Listen, the spiritual realm is different. It is extra-dimensional. Some astro-physicists have suggested many multiple dimensions beyond what we experience.
"The 11th dimension is a characteristic of space-time that has been proposed as a possible answer to questions that arise in superstring theory. The theory of superstrings involves the existence of nine dimensions of space and one dimension of time for a total of 10 dimensions." Just theoretical, but the missing components that these guys can't figure exist outside the physical realm, in the spiritual. They are unknown, therefore, physics will never solve the cosmic puzzle completely.
I think heaven looks like earth, only it is perfect. Our new resurrected bodies will be multi-dimensional, able to pass from the spiritual realm into the physical as Jesus did and angels as well, defying gravity, distance, etc. So the upgrade of our eternal bodies will be also accompanied by an upgrade in our environment.
Prophecy proves that He not only plans but sees exactly how things will happen. He showed the prophets visions of events The events of Revelation 6-19 will soon unfold exactly how John saw it. That is a dimension that you nor I are familiar with.
Well, I'm not either, but I have listened to and learned from a genius, Chuck Missler, who delved in that area of astrophysics. Much of his ministry consisted of his apologetic approach to witness about the existence of God as the Designer of the Universe (who operates outside of our time domain). That is where I picked up that phrase. He has several books out. In the early 90's, I was a new Christian and was fascinated by his mind.
Temporal nature? We are in a temporal realm. Heaven is eternal. But yes, time as we know it, will not have value, since we won't waste it, or lose it, or feel rushed as if we are running out of it. Death has a time stamp, eternal life does not.
Again, just a different perspective of time ... as different as everything else will be.
Sin distorted the world and numbered our years. Being free of sin and that distortion freed us from aging and death. We will not have birthdays anymore - we won't value years and age. It is just as well there won't be years anymore, I can't imagine having a billion candles on my cake.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
Logikos
Active Member
Yeah, so am I and pretty much every argument I know to support it I learned from Bob Enyart.
As for his concept of time being deceptive, saying it doesn't make it so!
Is this just an accusation you wanted to throw out there and let wave in the wind in the hopes that it might prevent someone from reading Bob's material or do you have even a syllable of substance by which to establish such an accusation?
God exists outside of Heaven, is that your point?
Do you mean that it is irrational and that we should therefore be willing to accept the self-contradictory as truth so long as it pertains to the spiritual realm?
Based on what?
So what? I'm not debating a atheistic scientist, I'm debating a Bible believing, young Earth, Creationist who I would hope has a desire to think biblically (not to mention rationally).
In short, garbage in garbage out. Modern cosmology is based on so many false premises that it's hard to list them all.
String theory is as good an example as I can think of when talking about how unscientific modern cosmology has become. String Theory (or any of its variants) is fundamentally untestable. There is no experiment that can even be postulated, never mind actually performed, by which the theory can be tested. It is therefore, overtly and intentionally and irrefutably unscientific - by definition.
Speculation. Interesting, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I understand that this is your doctrine but it is speculation in regards to the Revelation passages and unbibical in regards to prophesy.
First of all there is more than one kind of prophesy and a great many prophesies aren't predictive prophesy but rather are passages of scripture that were "fulfilled", usually by Christ, in that events occurred in a manner that intentionally parallels those passage. And, there are several predictive prophesies in the bible that DID NOT come to pass!
I can give examples, if you'd like.
I have no doubt that he has a very effective ministry and comes at it from a place of great intentions but he's made a mistake.
Have you ever heard of a Stolen Concept Fallacy? It's a kind of contradiction where one concept is used to undermine another concept that the first concept is logically based upon. The clearest example is the single sentence statement, "All private property is theft." Such a statement might be heard from a leftist on some college campus somewhere. The point being to associate what most consider a positive thing "private property" with a negative thing "theft". The problem is that the concept of theft has no meaning outside the purview of private property. If a thing is not owned by anyone, it cannot be stolen, by definition. Thus, the statement "steals the concept" of theft.
The idea of "existence outside of time" commits the same kind of error. It steals the concept of existence by undermining the concept of time upon which the concept of existence logically depends. Time is not a thing or a place, it is an abstraction, an idea. It is the concept we use to communicate the duration and sequence of events. Existence presupposes duration and therefore presupposes time. Thus, the idea of timeless existence is an oxymoron and self-evidently false.
Further, the bible never talks about God existing in a timeless manner.....
When Reading in the Greek, We See that God:
- is timeless
- in an eternal now
- without sequence or succession
- without moment or duration
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.
Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato.
When Reading the Bible, We See that God:
is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - abides - Eternal - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - the eternal God - God’s years will have no end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.
The above is excerpted from another article written by Bob Enyart....
Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.
I think you must surely have missed the point because you did it again.
The only reason "death has a time stamp on it and eternal life does not" is because eternal life is never ending, not because the concepts of duration and sequence don't apply to it. On the contrary, it is precisely the duration of this life vs. the next that is the point. The duration of this life is finite. It had a definite beginning and will have a definite end. Whereas your eternal life had a definitely beginning (i.e. when you were saved) but it's duration is forever. It's duration will be unending and approach infinity.
Well, once again, this is somewhat speculative. The fact is that we do know that, at the very least, one month will be deliniated from another based on which fruit is ripe on the Tree of Life and we simply do not know what value there will be in regards to keeping track of the history of Heavenly events.
Further, you will still grow old in Heaven. Not in terms of geriatrics where your body breaks down and all of that but simply in terms of time. God is called "The Ancient of Days"!
Daniel 7:
9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;.....
.....13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
Yeah, I always had a problem with that kids song... didn't seem to reflect reality at all.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
What about Bob? If someone wants to read a absorb what Bob has to say is fine with me. People do believe that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. Let them.
No, I said He is not confined to our time construct. He operates in His dimension, not confined to the rotations and revolutions of the earth, tur sun and moon. God is omnipresent, so is in heaven and transcends heaven into out universe.
I simply stated that the spiritual realm is different than our physical realm. Is that a contradiction? We usually cannot see into the spiritual realm unless God gives us a vision. There could 10k angels present and you would not know it. You have a guardian angel nearby, can you see him?
They can appear and disappear, travel great distances without being confined to our physics. Is that an irrational thought?
The spiritual realm is extra-dimensional based on it is beyond our physical realm. It is at least one more than ours. But when we think of God, He has no boundaries.
Okay, but the point still remains - physical science lacks the missing formulas that exist in God's spiritual domain. They do not have access to his power, nor understand it.
You keep getting stuck on this concept. God created our physical measurement of time and operates outside those measurements. Why is that difficult for you?
Ancient of days is just a phrase that means He came before there were days.
I think a child will grow and mature in heaven to an adult stature, as most do by 18- 21 years old. But then we will remain young for eternity. Don't think there are any old people in heaven - heard that from a little boy who went there and came back. He said, "There are no old people in heaven"! So a person dies at age 100 and goes to heaven. In heaven he will look 21 for eternity. A vision of God's hair like wool doesn't mean Jesus looks old with gray hair. This is how Jesus looks, a portrait painted by a Prodigy 8 year old, who began to have visions of heaven and angels and Jesus when she was 4. Her parents were atheists at he time and so there you have, a gift from God.
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Logikos
Active Member
Bob believed and taught and publicly debated people for decades that the Earth was about 6000 years old! It was a major cornerstone of his whole ministry! Don't say things about people unless you know what you're talking about!
This is your doctrine and just repeating your doctrine doesn't prove anything nor rebut any argument made against it.
Existence outside of time is a contradiction and its unbiblical as I have demonstrated.
My house is different than your house - so what?
In other words, you were saying far more than merely that it is different. Of course, its different. No one has suggested that it isn't different.
Of course not, but none of that implies that they do no experience duration and the sequence of events.
Daniel 10:10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.
12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
I see the point you are making but I don't think that the logic quite follows. The Heavens and the Earth and everything in them were created by God in six days. That includes the whole of the heavenly realm, all of the angels and every other thing that exists besides the Creator Himself. In six days! Not in a blink of an eye, not all at once as though God created it outside of time and then imported it into this existence but it took Him six consecutive days.
So what?
That isn't sarcasm. I'm asking you how that undisputed fact has anything to with whether or not God experiences duration and sequence.
Because it isn't possible and its completely unbiblical. As I have already argued without rebuttal from you, or anyone else for that matter.
No it absolutely does NOT mean that! It means that God is ancient! It means that He is the most ancient! It is a name that God gave to Himself that explicitly includes a reference to time.
I agree that we will remain in a perpetually maximal state in so far as the condition of our bodies and minds are concerned. I'm pretty sure I was extremely clear about that. The point was that regardless of how old we look or feel, regardless of the condition and strength of our bodies, we will be older that 21 years of age. We will continue to grow in wisdom and gain new skills and acquire new experiences throughout our unending life with God and there will come a day when we can rightly say that we are 10,000 years old. Whether anyone would keep track is a different question.
No such visions ever actually happened unless the child was being fed LCD or something.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Really, in Bob's argument against Einstein's theory of Gravitational dilation, he says this:
"Consider this exaggerated scenario to illustrate my opposition to time dilation, and then I’ll suggest a practical experiment that could test my conclusion.
Two atomic clocks have been running on Earth for billions of years, one at the base of Cheyenne Mountain, and the other at the summit, sitting inside of a well-maintained Chinook cargo helicopter."
>Sounds like he believes in an old earth ...
or is he creating an imaginary setting that isn't true ti prove his point?
Well, who said it was Biblical. We don't know. Einstein's theory is what I was talking about. The Apostles never met him.
I agree, my house is different than yours.
I am afraid I am beginning to think I will soon choose to retreat outside of time with you.
I agree, never said there wasn't time in heaven - I said it wasn't measured in minutes, hours, days and years. And I also implied (specualted), that there were many dimensions in heaven beyond our physical reality.
The Ancient of Days is a title, but the title does suggest He came before there were days. He created days. He is before all things we see, even time as we know it.
Oh, you are prevy to any and all visions from God. I see. Well, on that note, I think it is time to say adios amigos. Interesting talking to you. But I'll just leave this with you to ponder: We know in part and see dimly!
You can get back to Episkopos now.
To anyone else reading this, sorry for derailing the thread. God Bless you all in your time of need.
Logikos
Active Member
It's definitely the latter. He's the strongest young earth creationist you've ever heard of. Here's just a taste of his work....
RSR's List of Not So Old Things
If it isn't biblical, why would you believe it?
Just as importantly, if it isn't rational, why would you believe it?
There is no such thing as irrational truth. The truth does NOT contradict itself - ever! That goes just as much for doctrine as for any other truth.
God existed before there were Earthly days but the title does not suggest that, per se. The title is expressing that God is older than everything else, that He is the most ancient. The point isn't about days or weeks or months. Those words are just the sounds we make to communicate a particular, familiar and convenient duration of time. The issue isn't and never has been about whether there will be periods of time called a "day" or a "week" but whether there will be duration and sequence of events (i.e. time) in Heaven. It seems now that you have conceded the point, which is more than virtually 100% of every other Christian I've ever discussed this with, who didn't already agreement with me, has done.
I know that these visions didn't happen because they conflict with scripture and she does not speak or act in a manner consistent with someone who has seen God with their own eyes, which the bible directly states that no one has done anyway.
Kramarik, the painter of that image you posted told CNN that she has seen God, that the Father in Heaven is ‘like a bow light – really pure, really masculine, really strong, and big.’
And she's said that God is her religion. “Since nobody told me who God was, I found God myself. He’s been there for me through the years. I don’t belong to any denomination or religion. I belong to God.”. And claims that she vividly remembers the first message God sent to her: The Deity told her to help people. "The Deity" - Seriously?
Also, that image you posted, it isn't a portrait of the face of Jesus that she saw in a vision, as is popularly believed. Its a portrait of an out of work handyman that came to her house one day looking for work, which is why Jesus looks so much like an American in her paintings.
Painting strangers that come to her front door is a recurring theme with Kramarik. On her website, in the description of one of her paintings, we read, "One summer Akaiane was making preparations for painting an Indian landscape when a stranger arrived by the front door and her family's home in Idaho. She was stunned whom she saw: a Hindu monk from top to bottom dressed in his own transitional robes. He had traveled across half of the world to share an urgent, confidential, and spiritual message with the artist. Soon after, the monk's unexpected visit became an inspiration for "Enlightenment."
So she gets inspiration for her art from God Himself and a Buddhist monk? Give me a break!
To be fair, she does say that Jesus is her highest authority and states bluntly that He is both human and God and so she may well be a Christian but her childhood visions did not happen. I have serious doubts that she ever disappeared for five days as such a small child, where she just suddenly showed back up one day in the hallway of her own house, or that much of any of her back story is anything other than marketing for her paintings.
Lastly, there's one pretty good way to know whether someone is actually from God or not. If they ever showed up on the Oprah Winfrey show, it's almost certainly going to be a "not". If their spiritually related art is endorsed by Glen Beck (a believer in the Mormon cult) then, again, the answer is very probably going to be a "not". If the whole world loves them and praises the artist for both her art and charitable donations, its just about for certain going to be a "not". If its all of these things, forget about it.
John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
As I said, we know in part and see dimly! My beliefs are based on the Bible. Beyond those beliefs, I can only assume, make a conjecture. In don't know how many dimensions there are in heaven or how God created anything. The Bible doesn't explain how the universe was made scientifically because not many would grasp it if it did; nor does It explain fully what heaven is like and how differently constructed or how many dimensions God functions in outside of our time domain. The point is _ and I do hope you can grasp this simple thing _ God is not confined to and His power operates outside of the properties and laws of physical universe He made - obviously, rationally and logically, He existed before it and the measurement of time as we know it. His power transcends into our physical realm.
>>> A Pastor gave an example of how God sees into the future and we can't. He used a piece of paper and asked the audience to imagine that the dot on the paper was a person who lived in a two-dimensional reality.
Then He drew a straight line that represents time and at the end, another dot, the same person. Along that line he also inserted all the events of this person's life. This is a two dimensional construct of time. The person cannot see the events, he can't see what's ahead, because he is in a two dimensional reality, a dot on a piece of paper that can only move forward with time, wxperiencing one event after another. Now, add another dimension. Add an architect who is looking down on the piece of paper. He penciled in the dots, line and events. He sees them all. Because He is not confined to the time line or dimension.
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Who ever said truth did. Sounds like a straw man argument.
You seem to be contradicting yourself.
You implied, The title, Ancient of Days is not about God existing before he created the days, then said the title is expressing that God is older than everything else.
>>> Everything else includes days.
Sounds like you just want to argue, a prideful trait.
No you don't! That is arrogance and above your pat grade to know what visions God sends people.
Yes it is, I told you the portrait if Jesus was confirmed by Colton Burpo.
Akianne's story is presented is presented this way. She saw Jesus, angels and heaven in visions and dreams.
Sorry, must disagree nd reture this conversion because it's like beating a dead horse.
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