whitestone
New Member
All praise to God! :)
I see you speak by the Spirit dear brother. Many here appear to hate your testimony. I will give you witness :)
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All praise to God! :)
Denying the self is denying that the self can do what it takes to be saved. Paul denied his religious training that relied on the self and placed his reliance on Jesus' to save and keep him. Paul picked up his cross when he preached the cross to the world.
According to the scriptures, I believe my definitions fit the scriptures below.
Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV
The Tax collector felt shame, humiliation, chagrin, grief, sorrow, vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment. Therefore I believe my defination is the correct ones. You can believe what you wish.
Nothing in this saying, by Jesus, said anything about the tax collector giving up his job as a tax collector nor is there anything said about the tax collector becoming sinless like the Pharisee thought he was.
Richard, how would one go about fulfilling the following scriptures if you do not "DENY SELF"?
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Let not and Neither yield sound like "Denying" to me.
Axehead
Why would Paul say we are dead to the law and then put us back under the law? Why would Paul say we are saved by faith and not the works of the law if we are still bound by works of the law?
If any of these scriptures are saying, to you, we are saved by the works of law keeping then, to you, the gospel of grace and salvation by faith in Jesus is a myth.
Why would Paul say we are dead to the law and then put us back under the law? Why would Paul say we are saved by faith and not the works of the law if we are still bound by works of the law?
If any of these scriptures are saying, to you, we are saved by the works of law keeping then, to you, the gospel of grace and salvation by faith in Jesus is a myth.
Why would Paul say we are dead to the law and then put us back under the law? Why would Paul say we are saved by faith and not the works of the law if we are still bound by works of the law?
If any of these scriptures are saying, to you, we are saved by the works of law keeping then, to you, the gospel of grace and salvation by faith in Jesus is a myth.
But the verse says that it is by the Spirit that a person puts to death the deeds of the body; it isn't the work of the flesh.
Hi Richard,
I picked this up from your post # 15.
You are correct.
If this is where you are now, understanding how the flesh is mortified/put to death - that sin has no more dominion in your life - that's great! :) Not that it's always easy, but, it does work.
There is a terrific battle in the mind over this truth, because that's where the enemy can float thoughts to shake us in our weakest places. But, temptation is not sin if it is not acted upon, and so as we refuse those thoughts a home in our hearts, and cleave to the Lord, we are still in the Spirit. In fact, we need the Spirit's help to resist many times, and because of Him, we overcome sin, to the glory of God.
My understanding has not changed at all. I have been a child of God trusting in His work on the cross for over 60 years. There is nothing that man does that saves himself except to trust in the promises of God.
Sorry but you are wrong. Jesus said that if you think it you have done it. I will believe Jesus. But the religious can always rationalize that what he does is not a sin. The Pharisees rationalized that having Jesus crucified was not a sin of murder.
Why would Paul say we are dead to the law and then put us back under the law? Why would Paul say we are saved by faith and not the works of the law if we are still bound by works of the law?
If any of these scriptures are saying, to you, we are saved by the works of law keeping then, to you, the gospel of grace and salvation by faith in Jesus is a myth.
My understanding has not changed at all. I have been a child of God trusting in His work on the cross for over 60 years. There is nothing that man does that saves himself except to trust in the promises of God.
Sorry but you are wrong. Jesus said that if you think it you have done it. I will believe Jesus.
But the religious can always rationalize that what he does is not a sin. The Pharisees rationalized that having Jesus crucified was not a sin of murder.
Hi Richard,
Of course Paul is not saying we go back under the law, but to be recognised as a Christian by God, we have to be in fellowship with Him so that we know His will for our lives, are obeying Him, and are exercising our faith in His word to us every day, in ways others can see - because that's what He did as He listened to His Father an obeyed Him.
One of those promises is about taking up our cross and following Him.
John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; [Matt 7:20] so shall ye be my disciples.
Luke 14:25 - 33
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any [man] come to me,
and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters,
yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sits not down first, and counts the cost, whether he have
[sufficient] to finish [it]? Lest haply, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it],
all that behold [it] begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sits not down first, and consults whether he be
able with ten thousand to meet him that comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the
other is yet a great way off, he sends an ambassage, and desires conditions of peace.
So likewise, whoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be my disciple.
You are referring to adultery, here, aren't you, that Jesus said is a sin even to contemplate?
I'm sorry, but I don't see how sins of thought, which were dealt with on the cross by Jesus Christ, as our Atonement, have anything to do with this discussion. Can you explain, please?
One of the joys of salvation to those who had lived under the Mosaic law, was, that they had a clear conscience now - something they had never had before. If you know the Lord, you should have a clear conscience, too.
Hebrews 10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,
and our bodies washed with pure water. John 15:3
1 Peter 1:22, 23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit towards
unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again,
not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereto [even] baptism does also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,but the answer of a good conscience
toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
But do you understand that those Jews who repented of it, were forgiven, and received the Holy Spirit?
Paul speaking Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man
is preached to you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all
things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Clearly, Christians in Acts were not believing in the law of Moses.
That's why it baffles me you think anyone here does.
There is a law in the New Covenant, which God writes in our hearts through the circumcision of Christ. It is to this that Episkopos refers - not the Mosaic law.
No Christian is under the Mosaic law, but, they are not a law to themselves either. There is still a standard of righteousness to be lived out in reality. Jesus Christ causes us to walk in His ways - the Way - the Truth - the Life
according to - or agreeing with 'righteousness'. Rom 6:16, Rom 7:4
If you don't dwell in His life, then you aren't producing righteousness or holiness. I'm not saying 'you aren't producing righteousness or holiness', but because you focus on your flesh all the time, it's difficult to know if your life has been changed by your relationship with Jesus Christ.
Because He died to free us from the power of sin, we have no excuse to sin anymore. Before Christ's death, the whole of mankind was in bondage to sin. The Mosaic Law proved that to Israel.
But now that the power of sin has been defeated by Christ on our behalf, we can live free from sin - not just free from the Mosaic law - but free from sin itself - in our flesh. So can you. :)
Richard, how would one go about fulfilling the following scriptures if you do not "DENY SELF"?
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Let not and Neither yield sound like "Denying" to me.
Denying one's self-ish life requires God's grace and Holy Spirit, otherwise it is human exerted religiousness. When your lusts want you to obey them you will obey them if you do not have the Holy Spirit and even if you do have the Holy Spirit you must deny your self_ish life and submit to the Holy Spirit. Therefore, our response should be to deny the lusts from our mortal body.
Otherwise, Jude 1:4 will be true of us. We will turn the grace of God into LASCIVIOUSNESS.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
This scripture is obviously describing an attitude of heart. The sinner knew he needed mercy, forgiveness and grace but the other guy thought he deserved to be honored by God. The Pharisee was religiously pretentious. We cannot use this story as an excuse for lasciviousness.
The Pharisee compared himself to this other man and it made him feel quite good and satisfied about himself. There is a walk of righteousness and holiness that God has called us to in Christ and if one is looking down on others they obviously are not walking in the righteousness or holiness of Christ. This Pharisee had a false sense of comfort and safety because all he had to do was follow the rules that he set up for himself. As long as he stayed within his legalistic boundaries, he was looked upon as holy.
True holiness comes by letting God work out His good purpose in our lives. The Apostle Paul tells us in Philippians 2:12-13, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” God wants us to live lives that reflect true holiness that brings praise to His Holy Name, but we can only do that if we are obedient and pliable to His will.
Richard, In Christ, there should be no load of guilt. If we experience the burden of guilt and it becomes an impediment in our Christian walk towards true holiness, then we must take advantage of 1 John 1:9. It is either that or we do not believe God’s provision of forgiveness and are instead believing the “father of lies,” our adversary and God’s, Satan.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, it says, “This is the will of God, your sanctification…” Sanctification is the work that God is doing in us in order to bring us into conformity to our Lord Jesus (Romans 8:28-19). While the standing of sanctification and righteousness may be instantaneous there is also a walk of righteousness and sanctification. We work out what God works in us and obedience is the key to submitting our wills to the will of God. Submitting our will to God's will is not legalism. Legalism cannot accomplish that because legalism is all about "I, ME, MY" and God is not part of the equation.
To walk in true holiness and righteousness, God has to be part of the equation (sort of speak) otherwise it is all just pretentious and religious.
It is God’s will and our obedience, not legalism or license that will accomplish His purposes in us.
Axehead
Excellent wisdom and explanation Axe. You are truly a brother in Christ
Only those who are of Righteousness are of the Kingdom of God. They also experience only Joy and Peace in His Holy Spirit.
Only sinless men are Righteous.
They have confessed and been forgiven and
by the Spirit, they destroy the works of the flesh (devil).
We who are of this Spirit do not sin for we are Sons of God.
Since I've confessed my sins I've been forgiven and haven't sinned since and thank Jesus every moment of every day for His Righteousness in me.
Christ in me, my Righteousness.
(1Co 1:30)
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
(Rom 5:19)
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Joh 5:14)
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Then you had better hope that you never sin again. Otherwise your own words will condemn you.
You are always trying to divert attention away from your sins, onto me, a stranger who is made sinless by Christ Jesus.Sounds just like the Pharisee prayer below doen't it? --- You had better hope that you never sin again. Otherwise your own words will condemn you.
Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV
Sounds to be like you are exalting yourself.
The attitude of a disciple of Christ would be to encourage the brother to remain in Christ. be filled with the Spirit and sin not. This is to be done even if you yourself are incapable of doing so. Are we not to esteem others higher than ourselves? But a carnal man cannot afford to do this from the poverty of a selfish heart.
You are always trying to divert attention away from your sins, onto me, a stranger who is made sinless by Christ Jesus.
How does "dying to myself" and letting Christ Live in me "exalt myself"? Do you not recognize the grave you dig for yourself?
And yes of course, I better not sin anymore, 'duh!'. Like I need a sinner telling me that lol!
But this isn't about me. This is about YOU, a SINNER. A teacher of false doctrine, claiming that it is impossible for you to not sin, thereby making Jesus Christ a liar.
(Joh 8:11)
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
I never look down my nose at a sinner. I repent for everybody's sins. Christ knows my heart. He LIVES in it because I DON'T. I died to myself. You don't know me and have no right to judge me as you have been doing on this forum.
Me, being judged by a self confessed sinner, who admittedly still sins regularly... So sad for you. Your reward is coming...
As I have said many, many, many, many times before, A person """"IS IN CHRIST"""" when they have belief, faith, trust and confidence in His work on the cross. If a person believes they are in Christ because of their works to not sin then they are placing their belief, faith, trust and confidence in their own ability to save themselves by what they do.
legalism vs grace
The actual acceptance of God is when you are empowered by the Holy Spirit....the fire comes down.
You know, I never saw it quite like that? :) Thank you Lord!
Here's a hymn you might know - or will be blessed to learn! ;) It's by Charles Wesley.
Tune - Wilton
http://smallchurchmusic1.com/MP3/MP3-OThouWhoCamest-Wilton-SPiano-128-CAM.mp3
O Thou Who camest from above,
The pure celestial fire to impart,
Kindle a flame of sacred love
Upon the mean altar of my heart.
There let it for Thy glory burn
With inextinguishable blaze,
And trembling to its source return,
In humble prayer and fervent praise.
Jesus, confirm my heart’s desire
To work and speak and think for Thee;
Still let me guard the holy fire,
And still stir up Thy gift in me.
Ready for all Thy perfect will,Older tune - Hereford
My acts of faith and love repeat,
Till death Thy endless mercies seal,
And make my sacrifice complete.
http://smallchurchmusic1.com/MP3-2010/MP3-OThouWhoCamest-Hereford-SPiano-128-CAM.mp3