Is Romans 8 a license to be holy?

[williemac]

When are you going to see that placing your own belief trust and confidence in Jesus then claiming salvation for your own belief trust and confidence IS to trust in your own abiblity to save yourself. What say does God have??? What proof that God even hears you?

Rom.4:5...." But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness".
You are confusing faith with the law. If a person is trusting in his own ability he is trusting in his works of law. If He is trusting in the saving grace of God through the death and resurrection of His Son, this is faith. Faith is the means by which we recieve a free gift from God. Where is the ability there? Faith exalts the ability of God to save. Sounds to me like you don't understand what faith is.
Here is more scripture:... Rom.4:20 (speaking of Abraham).." He did not waiver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God" Faith gives glory to God, not to self or man. Faith accepts God at His word.
vs.21,22..." and being fully convinced that what God had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore it was accounted to him as righteousness". vs.23,24....." Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead".
Rom.10:9,10.." that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in yur heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" vs.11-13..." For the scripture says, "whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame" For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord IS RICH TO ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM. For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".

The actual acceptance of God is when you are empowered by the Holy Spirit....the fire comes down.

The new birth comes by faith in God, the acceptance of His promise. (John3:16) The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience. It can happen at the same time as the new birth, but not necessarily at the same time. The Holy Spirit was given as a councellor, a teacher, a comforter, He who quickens the mortal body, He who empowers us to be a witness to the world, He who gives us the assurance of our inheritance.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom.4:5...." But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness".
You are confusing faith with the law. If a person is trusting in his own ability he is trusting in his works of law. If He is trusting in the saving grace of God through the death and resurrection of His Son, this is faith. Faith is the means by which we recieve a free gift from God. Where is the ability there? Faith exalts the ability of God to save. Sounds to me like you don't understand what faith is.
Here is more scripture:... Rom.4:20 (speaking of Abraham).." He did not waiver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God" Faith gives glory to God, not to self or man. Faith accepts God at His word.
vs.21,22..." and being fully convinced that what God had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore it was accounted to him as righteousness". vs.23,24....." Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead".
Rom.10:9,10.." that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in yur heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" vs.11-13..." For the scripture says, "whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame" For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord IS RICH TO ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM. For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".
The new birth comes by faith in God, the acceptance of His promise. (John3:16) The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience. It can happen at the same time as the new birth, but not necessarily at the same time. The Holy Spirit was given as a councellor, a teacher, a comforter, He who quickens the mortal body, He who empowers us to be a witness to the world, He who gives us the assurance of our inheritance.

You are confusing the law with the process of salvation by going to the cross to have the old man put down. Only then can we walk in the actual power of Christ that we have received at the new birth. The cup must be emptied before it can be filled again.

 

[williemac]

You are confusing the law with the process of salvation by going to the cross to have the old man put down. Only then can we walk in the actual power of Christ that we have received at the new birth. The cup must be emptied before it can be filled again.

If you have remembered my previous replies, I have not argued with concept of the old man vs. the new man. However, you have not acknowledged my reply as a correction of your obvious rejection of personal faith. I used scripture to prove personal belief in the death and resurrection, for salvation. You claim that this is an impssobility and that one is claiming salvation by his own ability in believing the gospel. Sounds rather Calvinistic to me.

On that note, you have by your posts, acknowledged that a person must personally resolve to quit sinning by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus you violate your own position in making a righteous lifestyle a matter of personal ability, if there is a choice in the matter on the behalf of the believer. If a Christian is sinning, why blame him if it is all about the power of God? But if he must respond in any way shape or form to the truth in order to walk as Jesus walked, then this is no different than personal faith for salvation, which you deny.

 

[Episkopos]

If you have remembered my previous replies, I have not argued with concept of the old man vs. the new man. However, you have not acknowledged my reply as a correction of your obvious rejection of personal faith. I used scripture to prove personal belief in the death and resurrection, for salvation. You claim that this is an impssobility and that one is claiming salvation by his own ability in believing the gospel. Sounds rather Calvinistic to me.

On that note, you have by your posts, acknowledged that a person must personally resolve to quit sinning by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus you violate your own position in making a righteous lifestyle a matter of personal ability, if there is a choice in the matter on the behalf of the believer. If a Christian is sinning, why blame him if it is all about the power of God? But if he must respond in any way shape or form to the truth in order to walk as Jesus walked, then this is no different than personal faith for salvation, which you deny.

What I deny is the ability to declare oneself righteous. Only God Himself can declare a person fit for eternity. A covenant is between 2 parties. We have our part to play in that what God has started we must be dilligent to allow Him to continue in us...not go off half baked claiming we are saved sanctified and glorified.

 

[williemac]

What I deny is the ability to declare oneself righteous. Only God Himself can declare a person fit for eternity. A covenant is between 2 parties. We have our part to play in that what God has started we must be dilligent to allow Him to continue in us...not go off half baked claiming we are saved sanctified and glorified.

Why then do you urge others to walk as Jesus walked...under the power of the Holy Spirit? Do you suppose the Spirit is given to one that is not saved and sanctified? But the bible itself allows for those who are in Christ to claim that they are in Christ. The bible itself says we are joint heirs with Jesus, that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, that He who has the Son has life, that the Holy Spirit is given as a GARUNTEE of our inheritance. The bible also exhorts us to share our personal testimony, which you seem to think is a no no. If I have Jesus, then I am certanly going to not be ashamed to say so, inviting others to follow the same WAY to eternal life (by faith). He who has the Son.... HAS LIFE.

The difference between us is that I believe these passages while you on the other hand are in a performance relationship whereby you are convinced that God will reject those who disappoint His high standard of behavior, yanking the life out of they whom He has given it, leaving no room for chastening.

Don't get me wrong. Paul asked the Galatians..."having begun in the Spirit are you now being made perfect in the flesh?" Such a question makes the point you are making, that we are in a process, not having been perfected yet. However, this is not to say that we are in a big test whereby if we don't perform well enough, that which was stared in us will be removed. In so many words, that is the message I am getting from you and several others.
I would rather follow the promise that what was stared in us will be completed...period. If it was started, if we are born again, if we are Spirit filled, though the resurrection has not yet taken place, our salvation is a done deal. It is by His promise, not by my ability to work for it. Blessings to you, Howie

 

[Episkopos]

Why then do you urge others to walk as Jesus walked...under the power of the Holy Spirit? Do you suppose the Spirit is not given to one that is not saved and sanctified? But the bible itself allows for those who are in Christ to claim that they are in Christ. The bible itself says we are joint heirs with Jesus, that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, that He who has the Son has life, that the Holy Spirit is given as a GARUNTEE of our inheritance. The bible also exhorts us to share our personal testimony, which you seem to think is a no no. If I have Jesus, then I am certanly going to not be ashamed to say so, inviting others to follow the same WAY to eternal life (by faith). He who has the Son.... HAS LIFE.

The difference between us is that I believe these passages while you on the other hand are in a performance relationship whereby you are convinced that God will reject those who disappoint His high standard of behavior, yanking the life out of they whom He has given it, leaving no room for chastening.

It is the walking in the Spirit that saves us and sanctifies us. There is no salvation at present outside of abiding in Christ. No one has a saved ticket in their pocket. No one owns salvation.

I am saying that performance is a fruit of being in God's presence. The chastisement comes when we are somehow satisfied with less than His utmost will for us.

A down payment of the Holy Spirit is not ours....it remains His. What we DO with that deposit determines whether or not we have an inheritance with the saints. Many are called through being "born" into the calling....but few are chosen and discipled to become saints.

God is saying...what would you do with a little grace??? Do we go off half cocked claiming to be justified and start a lot of self glorifying ministries ostensibly in His name??? Or does this gift cause us to draw closer to God and submit to His training???

 

[us2are1]

People are always looking for the easiest way...the way that is easiest for the flesh to emulate. Romans 8 is very misunderstood by most. We have some great exhortations that are missed...but stand as real markers to the standard of the risen in Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses like these are gobbledigook to the carnal man.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

But there is no excuse for missing a basic message as this...

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I know Richard interprets this verse as AFTER having committed a sin...he kills it with his spirit.

This is way out there of course...but how do others of the "faith only" (actually belief or opinion only) crowd explain away the truth of this!!!????

It seems plain to me that it means believe in Christ to the doing of What He taught. What He taught includes everything that a soul needs to live and not die. Starting with "ask God for it". For reals "ask God for it".

 

[williemac]

It is the walking in the Spirit that saves us and sanctifies us. There is no salvation at present outside of abiding in Christ. No one has a saved ticket in their pocket. No one owns salvation.

It is walking in the Spirit that gives us fruit which allows for rewards to be given on the judgment seat of Christ. But even if these worksd are burned..." he himself will be saved" . But I never made up the passage that says the Spirit is given as a garuntee. It is in the bible. What part of garuntee don't you understand?

I am saying that performance is a fruit of being in God's presence. The chastisement comes when we are somehow satisfied with less than His utmost will for us.

I never said chastisement. I said chastening. Two different words with two different meanings. The chastisement for our peace was upon HIM. He died for our sin. He was punished in our place. The bible says our old man is dead, crucified with Christ. We died with Him. We are indeed chastened for our bad behavior. But this is not a rejection. It is a correction.

A down payment of the Holy Spirit is not ours....it remains His. What we DO with that deposit determines whether or not we have an inheritance with the saints. Many are called through being "born" into the calling....but few are chosen and discipled to become saints.

This is rubbish. Our life came as a result of faith in Him. It can only be lost through a reversal of that faith. We do not go on to perfection through works of law. This was the point of Paul's scolding of the Galatians. A down payment? What kind on nonesense is this? If He gave the down payment, then why do we take resposibility for the balance of the payment? Was the sacrifice of Jesus insufficient? I agree that the down payment is His. But you are saying that the balance of the payment is ours. You are the one taking ownership of salvation, my friend. I have (good) news for you. There is only ONE Savior.
The Holy Spirit is He Whom gives us the presence of the Father and the Son. Abiding in that presence is not done by works but by fellowship (Rev.3:21,22). The fruit is a result of this abiding. You are confusing the cause with the effect.

God is saying...what would you do with a little grace???

I hear you saying it, but I haven't seen this in scripture. Not in the sense of a "works" test to see if one can pass it for salvation.

Do we go off half cocked claiming to be justified and start a lot of self glorifying ministries ostensibly in His name??? Or does this gift cause us to draw closer to God and submit to His training???

How about both????? Rom.5:1... " THEREFORE HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" I suppose you are feeling that Paul went off half cocked claiming that he/they had been (past tense) justified by faith....hmmmm? We either have peace with God or we don't. Do we take ownership of keeping this peace between us? If we do, it is by faith, not by works. It came by faith. I'm sorry that this offends you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Howie,

I'm just picking up a couple of points here.

If He is trusting in the saving grace of God through the death and resurrection of His Son, this is faith.

That response to the call to follow Jesus Christ which you have described, is just the beginning. A person who is born again has some growing to do. Paul gives perspective to this in Ephesians 4:'... the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we [henceforth] be no more children...' - implies increasing maturity.

you have by your posts, acknowledged that a person must personally resolve to quit sinning by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus you violate your own position in making a righteous lifestyle a matter of personal ability,

Not personal ability, but personal choice. A person decides to quit sinning, and that releases something in the spiritual realm whereby the power of the Holy Spirit is available to help - because whether he had heard of Rom 8:13 or not, as long as his eyes are on the Lord for His glory, he will overcome in the name of Jesus.

if there is a choice in the matter on the behalf of the believer.

If a person has truly entered a new relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ, that person is most certainly free to choose to not sin. We know, though, that everything Paul said in Rom 8:5, 6, 7, 8. 9, is pertinent to resisting the flesh and choosing to walk in the Spirit. God is looking for our continuing consent to His work in us.

If a Christian is sinning, why blame him if it is all about the power of God?

Because he has been set free to not sin. He must recognise that Christ's death released him to eat from the tree of life again, and that is not possible while he carries on sinning - therefore, still eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was precisely to release mankind from the prohibition to eternal life, that Christ died.

But with that - at least on God's part - goes the assumption that those putting their faith in Christ do so with the intention of now living a life which is pleasing to God instead of themselves. All the apostles write of this. It's no secret. I don't understand how the gospel can be preached in such a way that repentance from sin is avoided so totally, that a new believer has not understood this basic requirement for all followers of Jesus Christ.

But if he must respond in any way shape or form to the truth in order to walk as Jesus walked, then this is no different than personal faith for salvation, which you deny.

If you do a study on the word 'faith', you will find that it is dependent on what God has said.

There is no such thing as 'personal faith'..... separate from the word of God.

When we are in a relationship with people, we do not expect them to speak to us once, and then - if they ever speak to us again - say the thing they said before.... do we? That's because we've been made like God, and he doesn't behave like that either. Every time we hear from Him, He is speaking something new. It may be familiar. He may have to repeat some things until we give Him His desired response - faith in action - but as any natural parent, He makes His word to us relevant to where we are in our development at the time. This makes sense, doesn't it?

It is by this on-going 'from faith to faith', that we grow in Christ; and Christ made it very clear in Matthew 7:21 that we are expected to obey our Father's will, just as He obeyed His Father's will. If we are doing that, we are accredited with having the same kind of faith as Abraham, who 'went out, not knowing whither he went'. We each have our own journey to make with God, conquering our own portion of 'the land of promise' in Him. Taking back the territory of which sin robbed us is only the beginning. Joshua 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. Scripture is packed with stories of people who had no idea what was going to happen next, and whose natural strength could not overcome the challenges - but, as they relied on God, (faith in His declaration of Who He IS - I AM), He did the impossible.

 

[Episkopos]

It is walking in the Spirit that gives us fruit which allows for rewards to be given on the judgment seat of Christ. But even if these worksd are burned..." he himself will be saved" . But I never made up the passage that says the Spirit is given as a garuntee. It is in the bible. What part of garuntee don't you understand?

Again...as long as by saved you mean the same thing as a person coming through a war having lost all his limbs, his sight and his hearing...but still alive....then I agree with you. Who just wants to be saved?????

I never said chastisement. I said chastening. Two different words with two different meanings. The chastisement for our peace was upon HIM. He died for our sin. He was punished in our place. The bible says our old man is dead, crucified with Christ. We died with Him. We are indeed chastened for our bad behavior. But this is not a rejection. It is a correction.

The bible may say that the disciples in that time were crucified according to their natures...but what makes you think that we have even the remotest identification with a persecuted church that walked in power?

This is rubbish. Our life came as a result of faith in Him. It can only be lost through a reversal of that faith. We do not go on to perfection through works of law. This was the point of Paul's scolding of the Galatians. A down payment? What kind on nonesense is this? If He gave the down payment, then why do we take resposibility for the balance of the payment? Was the sacrifice of Jesus insufficient? I agree that the down payment is His. But you are saying that the balance of the payment is ours. You are the one taking ownership of salvation, my friend. I have (good) news for you. There is only ONE Savior.
The Holy Spirit is He Whom gives us the presence of the Father and the Son. Abiding in that presence is not done by works but by fellowship (Rev.3:21,22). The fruit is a result of this abiding. You are confusing the cause with the effect.
I hear you saying it, but I haven't seen this in scripture. Not in the sense of a "works" test to see if one can pass it for salvation.
How about both????? Rom.5:1... " THEREFORE HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST" I suppose you are feeling that Paul went off half cocked claiming that he/they had been (past tense) justified by faith....hmmmm?

What life???

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Howie,

The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 is one of the best to understand what Episkopos is pointing to. The parable begins with these words:

'14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Now, we know He gave three different quantities of 'talents' (or responsibilities, or callings, or instructions), each to three different servants 'to every man according to his several ability'. (God knows who He has employed in His vineyard.)

To the two who increased their capital He said, 'Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

To the one who wrapped his talent up and buried it, He said,

'[Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received

mine own with usury. ​

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] to him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken

away even that which he hath. ​

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


Does this parable have any relevance to Christianity? (If you think not, please explain why? Thanks.)

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Howie,

The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 is one of the best to understand what Episkopos is pointing to. The parable begins with these words:

'14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Now, we know He gave three different quantities of 'talents' (or responsibilities, or callings, or instructions), each to three different servants 'to every man according to his several ability'. (God knows who He has employed in His vineyard.)

To the two who increased their capital He said, 'Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

To the one who wrapped his talent up and buried it, He said,

'[Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received

mine own with usury. ​

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] to him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken

away even that which he hath. ​

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


Does this parable have any relevance to Christianity? (If you think not, please explain why? Thanks.)

You are blessed to see this! So few do!!

 

[MTPockets]

Hi! 'DragonFly' and 'Episkopos'

I've been reading this Thread with much interest. I found your discussion concerning Parable of the Talents exceedingly interesting.
If you don't mind, I'd like to parachute into your discussion and perhaps add something beneficial to it.

In a nutshell, this parable is primarily concerned with what Jesus Himself experienced for Himself. Following His baptism in Jordan Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, (as our Bible says), John "saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him", (Matt 3:16). After His ascension, the Lord became for His people the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit just like John the Baptist was the baptizer in water for the people of Israel.

We know that, (at the first creation), Adam received a human spirit of which James 4.5 says, "He yearns jealousy over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us". However, the Last Adam also received the Holy Spirit and, according to their faith, His spiritual offspring also receive this Spirit.

Jesus did not receive His baptism in water in an automatic way, but from Galilee He traveled to Jordan to be baptized by John. Nor did He receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit in an automatic way, but when He was '"in prayer" the unseen world was opened. When He was praying, that is, active in the Kingdom of heaven, He received the power of the Kingdom of God. Then the Father gave His Son His property, the Holy Spirit! By faith one has to appropriate this promise of the Father. Peter said: "Repent and be baptized every one of you (just as Jesus) in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you", (Acts 2:38-39). A promise which can only be received and appropriated by faith!

The parable continues with saying: "He called his servants and entrusted to them his property". So here there are servants, people who belong to their lord and serve him. They receive His property or his goods. "He is the high priest of the good things to come for all who expect him for their salvation". The word "to come" must be placed opposite the times of the law and the era of shadows, (Hebrews 9:1 1 & 10:1).

Under the Old Covenant, the human spirit wrestled "against flesh and blood" and was incapable of conquering the "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places". Neither did the faithful of God know of a citizenship in the unseen world. Therefore, they were fighting a hopeless and fleshly struggle against sin. Knowing very little about God's and man's real enemy, they fought against natural enemies only. In the New Covenant, these who belong to the Lord and ask for it in faithful prayer receive the Holy Spirit who helps the human spirit in his struggle against sin, sickness and bondage. In his battle against and victory over the evil powers, the Lord referenced this property in these words: "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you", (Matt 12:28).

According to Romans 14:17, the Kingdom of God consists of "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit"'. He who thinks this Kingdom manifest for him in a different manner is not on the road revealed to us by Jesus. Although many Christians have filled large books about victorious life, they still utterly fail the methods of Jesus. They piously call people to extreme efforts and present a counterfeit salvation fraudulent life in the Kingdom of God.

The disciples comprehended the nature of the power which was theirs through the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Matthew 10:1 tells us that Jesus empowered them to cast out unclean spirits, to heal the sick and diseased. Power is an attribute of the Holy Spirit with which He wields authority in the unseen world. Through the baptism in the Holy Spirit a Christian receives this same Holy Spirit to dwell in him; enabling him to be active as a co-operator with God. The Holy Spirit in him is the spiritual capital which he uses. This is the reason why Peter by faith in the Holy Spirit in him could tell the paralyzed man at the Beautiful gate, "Look on us ... silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk", (Acts 3:4-6).

In order to live an earthly/natural human life, we require a human spirit, Conversely, to be a spiritual or heavenly man one needs to have the Holy Spirit. God's plan for man is to achieve spiritual maturity; that is: to be set free completely from powers of darkness and to be restored, led, and strengthened by the Holy Spirit. This causes us to be "equipped for every good work", 2Tim 3.17. Good works are the works Jesus did! Jesus called the Holy Spirit the Comforter because what healing is for the body, comfort is for the suffering of the soul. The Comforter extinguishes the pain of an injured soul and restores it.

The message of our gospel is glorious because it's similar to the life and deeds of Jesus Christ.
That's the reason why the faithful of God are truly joyful people.
We are like people invited to a feast. For us the feast continues when we enter into the banquet hall, into the joy of our Master. No one can enter in there who does not have the wedding garment. We carry the Kingdom of God within us; that is: it's joy and peace. Furthermore, the righteousness covers us as a garment of white linen. Lest we forget, one of the climaxes of this feast is the fulfillment of these words: "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed", (Rev 20:4). We are a royal priesthood which God intends to position over all the works of His hands.

 

[IanLC]

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men and holiness for without which no man shall see the Lord."

 

[williemac]

Hi Howie,

The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 is one of the best to understand what Episkopos is pointing to. The parable begins with these words:

'14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Now, we know He gave three different quantities of 'talents' (or responsibilities, or callings, or instructions), each to three different servants 'to every man according to his several ability'. (God knows who He has employed in His vineyard.)

To the two who increased their capital He said, 'Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

To the one who wrapped his talent up and buried it, He said,

'[Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received

mine own with usury. ​

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] to him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken

away even that which he hath. ​

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


Does this parable have any relevance to Christianity? (If you think not, please explain why? Thanks.)

Thank you for quoting from this parable. I came back to my computer to talk about this very parable, myself. Coincidence? I don't think so. The seriousness of it is convincing. We must not bury our talent. Of course, this is not about money. It is a parallel to what we do with what we have been given. But there are some things that we must take into consideration in it. In the first place, the unprofitable servant was he who refused to bear fruit. In order to do that he took the effort to dig a hole, bury his money, and cover it up. The master indicated to him that he should have at least put it into the bank (or equivalent thereof) and allowed it to collect interest. Here is a key point. The indication is that this would have been sufficient, although very disappointing I'm sure. The fault was in the deliberate refusal to allow the money to gain any profit.

So how does this relate to what we are discussing? Good question. I have made comments about this very thing on several related threads. What I have repeatedly shared from scripture is that we are not rejected on the basis of the quantity of our fruit. Some bear 100, some 60, some 30, as Jesus spoke of in the parable of the sower. In this parable even a minute amount would have been acceptable. Jesus has compassion. He understands that not all are as able and strong as others.

Jesus cursed a fig tree because it bore no fruit. The one thing that God requires of all life is that it bears fruit. But how much? Does Jesus break a bended reed? Does He snuff out a smouldering wick?

And so the question we should be asking is just how does one's life reflect an absolute refusal to bear fruit? According to you guys, the standard is pretty high. But according to this parable, it is not high at all. In fact, the money could collect interest all on its own if left to do so. Here is the key in this parable. Fruit happens naturally. It belongs to God, after all. Life is designed to bear fruit. So if we are going to say that a little bit of sin is the equivalent of burying one's talent, then I think that we are all doomed. James shared that failure on any one point of the law makes one guilty of the whole law. one advantage to that comment is to ensure we are not depending on obedience to law for our life.

But we know from scripture that we are not judged according to the law if we are in Christ. We will not be rejected by virtue of our failures. Jesus will say "well done My good and faithful servant" " inherit the kingdom prepared for you" .. but why? Because.."you didn't rob any banks, you didn't curse, you didn't kill anyone, you didn't lie to anyone, you didn't...you didn't....you didn't....."????

No, He said " I was hungry and you gave Me food. I was thirsty and you gave Me drink. I was a stranger and you took Me in. I was naked and you clothed Me. I was sick and you visited Me. I was in prison and you came to Me. It is fitting that these examples are found in the same chapter as the parable of the talents (Math.25). These are acts of compassion. These are acts of love. Those who do these walk as Jesus walked, Who came full of grace, truth, love, mercy, compassion, into this world to show us the heart of God.

Do you suppose to suggest that those who bear this kind of fruit will be rejected for not being perfect? What about John's comment in 1John 2:1?..." If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

A major point of the sacrifice of Jesus was to give us grace and mercy in this life while we go about the business of representing Him to the world. But many go about with an "it's all about me" attitude, which turns off the world to the truth. Part of the business of emptying one's self is forsaking the motivation of self preservation or self justification. How can we propose to offer life to the lost if we are merely doing it for our own interest? If we are under the burden of saving ourselves or justifying ourselves by our works, then that is all we can offer to a lost soul. No wonder some of them run the other way. At least they are honest and humble enough to recognize they can't save themselves.

The parable of the talents was not intended to put a self saving mentality into our minds. It was intended to release us from the burden of worrying about our eternal desitny by the assurance that even a little fruit is sufficient. It takes more effort to bury one's talent than to allow it to bear fruit all on it's own.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Howie,

Thanks for your reply about the talents. I hear what you're saying.

Did you see my earlier post to you at # 49? I'm quite interested in your further comments about faith.


.
.
.
Welcome MTPockets,

Please don't take this question the wrong way, but are you a Scot? That's just a great username either way



About your post - I very much enjoyed it. Thank you for 'jumping in'. Thank you for sharing. Amen!

 

[williemac]

Again...as long as by saved you mean the same thing as a person coming through a war having lost all his limbs, his sight and his hearing...but still alive....then I agree with you. Who just wants to be saved?????

I agree with that as well. But it is a bit of an exaggeration, I would say. However, this will be dtermined by the quality and quantity of our works, not by any sins committed. The sins have been remitted..past present and future. (remitted...removed from God's record against us)

The bible may say that the disciples in that time were crucified according to their natures...but what makes you think that we have even the remotest identification with a persecuted church that walked in power?

The identification is not about me, or them, or any human. We are identified with Christ, the same as they were, by faith. Do we not have the same Holy Spirit? Does the hand say to the foot, " You are not part of the same body as I "? The passage is not about what is done in the flesh. It is a concept that is liberating if we understand it. The old man, which Paul told both the Colossians and Ephesians to put off, is positionally dead in God's eyes, having been crucified with Christ. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kindom of God. We are a new creation now. It is indeed a process that has begun in us, but it will be completed. That is a promise. In the meantime, the sin that is present in us, in our bodies, in our old man, cannot condemn us because God has considered the old man to have died with Christ. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2Cor.4:7)

What life???

He who has the Son, has life. This is the treasure that lives in earthen vessels. Our new man. The new spirit in us that was born of His Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is the new wineskin. The new wine is the Holy Spirit. Do you think God is not going to finish what he started? We are born again through faith. We recieve the Holy Spirit by (the hearing of) faith. We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all (Heb.10:10) . And our new man is perfected forever (Heb.10:14), thus we are perfected forever, as the passage says. The new man was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness (Eph.4:24). We have His righteous nature in us, making us a new creation. We are simply told to walk in this righteous nature rather than in the old nature that is in our flesh. Those who are born again are a new creation. He who has the Son HAS life. John 3:36..." He who believes in the Son HAS everlasting life..."

This is what you have rebuked others for saying and which I jumped in to confirm with them. It is not robbery to say we are sanctified, that we have everlasting life now, and that this is a result of our faith in Him. I called it personal faith because it is our decision to believe, just as you say it is our decision to quit sinning. The ability lies in the ability to decide or the ability to believe (which translates to the acceptance of the free gift of life). We (humans) do not have the ability within ourselves to produce our own righteousness, but we do have the ability to recieve His righteousness by grace, through faith (which comes by hearing, of course).

 

[Episkopos]

I agree with that as well. But it is a bit of an exaggeration, I would say. However, this will be dtermined by the quality and quantity of our works, not by any sins committed. The sins have been remitted..past present and future. (remitted...removed from God's record against us)

I wish you would not try to add opinion to the biblical record. It is in fact sins that disqualify us from being in the presence of God. Unless you do not know the bible well you must know that repentance and forgiveness are for sins that are past. No one can repent "in advance". Do you really need the verses that contradict your understanding???

The identification is not about me, or them, or any human. We are identified with Christ, the same as they were, by faith. Do we not have the same Holy Spirit? Does the hand say to the foot, " You are not part of the same body as I "? The passage is not about what is done in the flesh. It is a concept that is liberating if we understand it. The old man, which Paul told both the Colossians and Ephesians to put off, is positionally dead in God's eyes, having been crucified with Christ. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kindom of God. We are a new creation now. It is indeed a process that has begun in us, but it will be completed. That is a promise. In the meantime, the sin that is present in us, in our bodies, in our old man, cannot condemn us because God has considered the old man to have died with Christ. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2Cor.4:7)

There is no such thing as a covering up of sins in the new testament. Jesus died to destroy the sins of the flesh by being resurrected to give us HIS life. There is no such thing as a positional truth unless again you see that you are positionally where you actually are. I am positionally in Montreal. Anything other than that is unreality. Those who actually abide in Christ walk in the light and are spiritually alive in Zion. But a person who is alive in Zion SEES from Zion.

He who has the Son, has life. This is the treasure that lives in earthen vessels. Our new man. The new spirit in us that was born of His Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is the new wineskin. The new wine is the Holy Spirit. Do you think God is not going to finish what he started? We are born again through faith. We recieve the Holy Spirit by (the hearing of) faith. We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all (Heb.10:10) . And our new man is perfected forever (Heb.10:14), thus we are perfected forever, as the passage says. The new man was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness (Eph.4:24). We have His righteous nature in us, making us a new creation. We are simply told to walk in this righteous nature rather than in the old nature that is in our flesh. Those who are born again are a new creation. He who has the Son HAS life. John 3:36..." He who believes in the Son HAS everlasting life..."

Agreed!!!

This is what you have rebuked others for saying and which I jumped in to confirm with them. It is not robbery to say we are sanctified, that we have everlasting life now, and that this is a result of our faith in Him. I called it personal faith because it is our decision to believe, just as you say it is our decision to quit sinning. The ability lies in the ability to decide or the ability to believe (which translates to the acceptance of the free gift of life). We (humans) do not have the ability within ourselves to produce our own righteousness, but we do have the ability to recieve His righteousness by grace, through faith (which comes by hearing, of course).

Actually we do have the abiblity to produce our own righteousness...but it is not God's...that is all. Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags IN COMPARISON to God's righteousness. Our strength is as nothing COMPARED TO GOD. Our intelligence is as nothing COMPARED TO GOD.

 

[williemac]

I wish you would not try to add opinion to the biblical record. It is in fact sins that disqualify us from being in the presence of God. Unless you do not know the bible well you must know that repentance and forgiveness are for sins that are past. No one can repent "in advance". Do you really need the verses that contradict your understanding???

I have addressed this repentance concept in other threads. There is no passage of scripture that requres repentance from sin for the gift of life. Repentance merely means a change of mind. If we could repent specifically of sin, no sacrifice would have been needed. But the 'advance' part comes in the anticipation of future sin. Jesus stands at the right hand of God as our permanent intercessor, our High Priest. The daily sacrifices were removed, by the one sacrifice that stands as a perpetual offering for sin. Do you need those verses?

We are not reconciled by our repentance from sin. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. The reconciliation took place from God, being in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. Do you need those verses? By the way, in the book of Job, the original sinner, Satan, walked right into the presence of God to talk to Him. Do you really think that God cannot look at or talk to a sinner? Our situation in Him is such that sin can no longer separate us from Him. Do you need those verses?

There is no such thing as a covering up of sins in the new testament. Jesus died to destroy the sins of the flesh by being resurrected to give us HIS life. There is no such thing as a positional truth unless again you see that you are positionally where you actually are. I am positionally in Montreal. Anything other than that is unreality. Those who actually abide in Christ walk in the light and are spiritually alive in Zion. But a person who is alive in Zion SEES from Zion.

Again, this is where you are mistaken. 1John2:1 says that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, as I have just shared in the above paragraph. I never said the sins were covered up. I said they were removed. In your hasty reply, maybe you should have considered what it is I am actually saying and quoting.

But as far as our position is concerned. I sit on a church board. That is a postion. It IS NOT A LOCATION. Do you know the difference between a postion and a location? We are positionally seated with Christ in heavenly places. That is not were we are located..... We are not located in Zion at the moment, either. But if we are told to put off the old man, then he is indeed alive and well in our flesh. However, in God's eyes, Who calls things that are not (yet) as though they were, the old man is dead. This is his position with God.

Actually we do have the abiblity to produce our own righteousness...but it is not God's...that is all. Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags IN COMPARISON to God's righteousness. Our strength is as nothing COMPARED TO GOD. Our intelligence is as nothing COMPARED TO GOD.

Good point. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God's. I did not intend to deny that.

 

[Episkopos]

Heb_6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

This thread is about Romans 8. The bad doctrines presented as a divergent tangent can be dealt with in other threads. Suffice for the thread is the errors thereof pertaining to it.