Is Romans 8 a license to be holy?

[JohnnyB]

If this is in response to my post, then it is an unfair assessment, and rather self pitying, if I might add. I never accused anyone of being prideful like Lucifer. What I did was warn others to remain humble and realize who is the source of the righteousness in you. But there are those who compare themselves to others and condemn or criticize them for not living up to the same standard they are. The exhortationm to walk in the Spirit is not a condition for salvation. It is rather a command to bear fruit. But just because the bible speaks in black and white language, doesn't mean that those who are less diligent in bearing fruit are condemned or doomed.

Just a comment from 2Cor.3:18...It is often taken that the "glory to glory" is a series of successes in one's life in his walk. This conclusion does not fit the context. The context speaks of the two glories of: first, the old covenant of law as mediated by Moses, who's face shone from God's glory, and second, the glory of the new covenant of righteousness by faith. We are transformed into His image from the one glory to the other....from glory to glory. The transformation is not ours to possess, nor ours to produce.

It is absolutely in response to your post, I should have quoted your post in mine. It is anything but self-pity, it is rather a shocking revelation on my part, that people could read the Bible when it speaks of remaining free of sin, and not believe what it says to do and in fact ignore these very words:

1 Cor 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

What you said in your previous post was:

"But I want to say that there is another extreme opposite to those who live a completely sinful lifestyle that denies the whole point of our life in Him. This extreme reflects the original sin of Lucifer, who decided to become or be as God. The simple term for it is pride. It is the root of sin."

When people put into practice what it says in 1 Cor 10:13 above, you yourself have stated that this behavior reflects Lucifer, when in reality it actually reflects and is in obedience to the Lord.

 

[williemac]

williemac said,




This is not biblical thinking or teaching. I know from our discussion in the Tozer thread about the cross, that you have constructed your own private doctrine around repentance, even although there is massive evidence in scripture for the connection between repentance and repentance from sin.

But, I can see that the appeal of claiming positional righteousness. You seem to imply that the Advocate - without being personally approached - will put each case to the Father on your behalf. This helpfully by-passes your resistance to repenting from sins.

However, I would draw to your attention, seriously, that Paul did not 'see' the 'positional righteousness' of the fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5, and I doubt the fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5 thought of himself as positionally 'righteous', after he'd been asked to leave until he'd repented. What's more, Paul's description of him doesn't base itself on his 'positional righteousness' either. Indeed, was he still positionally righteous?

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly
manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2 Corinthians 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned
already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


It should be obvious that Paul does not believe their future sins are already forgiven nor that repentance was a thing of their past.

I, my friend, I see you have misunderstood what I am saying on the subject. I have never argued against the repentance of sin, nor have I denied the call to a righteous life in Christ. I am saying that repentance from sin is not a requirement for eternal life. Is it necessary? Yes. But not for salvation. If it were, then salvation would be a matter of faith mixed with works. This would then be a direct opposition to the revealed word of God which states that life is a free gift, bought and paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus. It would also oppose the revealed word in Rom.10:9,10, and other places which put faith and works in opposing arenas, where they are clearly not compatible for justification. Read also Rom.5:1.

However, if one comes to Jesus for salvation from sin, one would already have had some acknowledgment concerning the seriousness of the sin issue, and one would have had some remorse concernign the sinful state one is in that required Jesus to die for it. This will produce a natural aversion to it in one's mind. So one would not get away with continuing in sin without his conscience bothering him. So yes, repentance from sin would be expected of one who has gone through the process of confessing sin for forgiveness. But this is no way should give a person the aweful burden of supposing he has to quit sinning in order to embark or remain in good standing with God. This is nothing more than self saving doctrine. Repentance from sin (in otherwords, the ceasing thereof) is a fruit of the new birth. It comes as a result of, not as a requirement for, life.
And certrainly the success in this area varies within the body of Christ. This, while unfortuante, does not disqualify those who are not doing as well as others.

We are all at different levels of mental stability. Some come into the kingdom from highly abusive situations, some unstable, some disfunctional, some weak, weary, disadvantaged, etc. The Lord knew this before He predestined anyone to be conformed to His image. He will accomplish what He started. He has promised this. This is not our function to make ourselves righteous, holy, or perfect by what we do. We simply bear the fruit of what has already been done in our new man (Eph.4:24). And not all bear equal fruit. We are not representing the grace, compassion, and kindness of our Lord by comparing ourselves with one another.

As well, the Jews in the old system were reminded of sin on a regular basis by the continual sacrifices on their behalf. The author of Hebrews called this a weakness in the system that was SOLVED by the one sacrifice for sin once for all. Do I have to mention the verses? How is it that the sacrifice of Jesus cannot even accomplish what the blood of bulls and goats were able to do? Theirs was a corperate sacrifice system that automatically included all of them who were in it. But now you propose that this is no longer available? This is a BETTER sacrifice we are under? Think about it.

 

[Episkopos]

I am saying that repentance from sin is not a requirement for eternal life. Is it necessary? Yes. But not for salvation. If it were, then salvation would be a matter of faith mixed with works.

There's no reality to this...

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This idea that we weren't actually created to do good works....is not of God.

 

[williemac]

It is absolutely in response to your post, I should have quoted your post in mine. It is anything but self-pity, it is rather a shocking revelation on my part, that people could read the Bible when it speaks of remaining free of sin, and not believe what it says to do and in fact ignore these very words:

1 Cor 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

What you said in your previous post was:

"But I want to say that there is another extreme opposite to those who live a completely sinful lifestyle that denies the whole point of our life in Him. This extreme reflects the original sin of Lucifer, who decided to become or be as God. The simple term for it is pride. It is the root of sin."

When people put into practice what it says in 1 Cor 10:13 above, you yourself have stated that this behavior reflects Lucifer, when in reality it actually reflects and is in obedience to the Lord.

I most certainly did not say such a thing. I was speaking of a person's motive, not his behavior. Pride is not a practice, it is a mindset. People can do the right things for the wrong reasons. But doing the right thing is not what I am opposing. C'mon, are you grasping to criticize?

And as well, just because God provides a way out doesn't mean that a person will take it, as well you may agree. But still, we cannot take ownership of the righteousness in us, as though we produced it. This is pride. It is the original sin, equating one's self with God. Not to mention that it is false.

So we have at least two extremes in religion. There are those who live a lifestyle that is contrary to the very faith they are professing....and there are those who live (more) righteously thinking that they are earning God's favor in it. And there are many in either camp who throw stones at the other side. I merely want to caution others to remain innocent of these things.

There's no reality to this...

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This idea that we weren't actually created to do good works....is not of God.

What? Who is promoting such an idea? False accusation, my friend. The fact is, we were created to be vessels of God's nature and be conformed to the image of His Son. We were not created to earn things from God by what we do. Rom.8:32 says (NKJ) that all things come from Him freely. Rom.11:35,36..."...or who has first given to Him and it shal be repaid him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to Whom be glory forever. Amen"
As for Acts 26:20, this does not say repent from sin. It merely says repent and turn to God. Repent means change. Repentance comes from "meta" (change), and "noya" (mind). So if one changes course and comes to God, what is he coming to God to recieve? 1. forgiveness, 2. life, 3. justification, 4. the gift of righteousness, 5.the remission (removal) of sin....etc. The works meet (befitting) for repentance simply mean that one's life should (logically) reflect the fact that they turned to God for these things. There was nothing in that passage that indicated one must quit sinning to recieve eternal life. If it did, then it would contradict many other scriptures including what Jesus Himself said in John 3:16, and John 6:50,51, and other places as well.

 

[Episkopos]

There was nothing in that passage that indicated one must quit sinning to recieve eternal life. If it did, then it would contradict many other scriptures including what Jesus Himself said in John 3:16, and John 6:50,51, and other places as well.

I'm shocked at this...let me find the appropriate emoticon... ...there!!!

Notice that you selected verses from the gospel of John. Now look up the Greek for how we are to believe. John was a spiritual man and he used spiritual imagery...he said we need to believe INTO Jesus. He doesn't lay out the cost...just WHERE we need to be to have eternal life.

This does not in any way diminish the necessity for a death to sin BEFORE one can find himself actually IN Christ. Jesus does not drive the getaway car for our sin heists!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi williemac,

I read your whole post, thanks. Sorry I hadn't noticed it sooner. I would like to begin with the last paragraph first, as I don't think I understand it properly.

As well, the Jews in the old system were reminded of sin on a regular basis by the continual sacrifices on their behalf. The author of Hebrews called this a weakness in the system that was SOLVED by the one sacrifice for sin once for all. Do I have to mention the verses?

Actually, I would like the verse you have in mind for 'a weakness in the system', please?

How is it that the sacrifice of Jesus cannot even accomplish what the blood of bulls and goats were able to do?

Well, the blood of Jesus works in a different way. A better way.

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Theirs was a corperate sacrifice system that automatically included all of them who were in it. But now you propose that this is no longer available?

Are you suggesting that the Old Covenant is stil in operation - or should be?

This is a BETTER sacrifice we are under?

The sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God is a better sacrifice, yes. Do you find Him wanting?

Think about it.

I am thinking ...... but this paragraph surprises me so much, I don't know what to make of it. Please give more detail?


Many thanks.

 

[williemac]

Hi williemac,

I read your whole post, thanks. Sorry I hadn't noticed it sooner. I would like to begin with the last paragraph first, as I don't think I understand it properly.



Actually, I would like the verse you have in mind for 'a weakness in the system', please?



Well, the blood of Jesus works in a different way. A better way.

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



Are you suggesting that the Old Covenant is stil in operation - or should be?



The sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God is a better sacrifice, yes. Do you find Him wanting?



I am thinking ...... but this paragraph surprises me so much, I don't know what to make of it. Please give more detail?


Many thanks.

Your welcome. Of course you (and others) know that the sacrifice of Jesus is better than the old sacrifices. I am counting on that. Therefore I was pointing out what the blood of bulls and goats, etc. accomplished on their behalf, and comparing that with what some are saying about the sacrifice of Jesus. The old covenant sacrifices coverd the ongoing sins of the people under the covenant. In the first place, if Jesus' sacrifice cannot at least do the same for those under this covenant, then how is this superior to the old ones?

But the author of Hebrews did not stop at merely saying the new sacrifice covered ongoing sins, he revealed that it took away the reminder of sin altogether, by the virtue of taking the sins away, ONCE FOR ALL (10:1-12). He then said Jesus has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Time does not permit me to expand on this, but I was responding to the suggestion that the sacrifice of Jesus does not apply to future sins of the believer, only to the past ones. This is not scriptural, and denies the power of the one sacrifice for sin forever (Heb.10:12), and renders it less powerful than the blood of bulls and goats.

 

[JohnnyB]

I most certainly did not say such a thing. I was speaking of a person's motive, not his behavior. Pride is not a practice, it is a mindset. People can do the right things for the wrong reasons. But doing the right thing is not what I am opposing. C'mon, are you grasping to criticize?

And as well, just because God provides a way out doesn't mean that a person will take it, as well you may agree. But still, we cannot take ownership of the righteousness in us, as though we produced it. This is pride. It is the original sin, equating one's self with God. Not to mention that it is false.

So we have at least two extremes in religion. There are those who live a lifestyle that is contrary to the very faith they are professing....and there are those who live (more) righteously thinking that they are earning God's favor in it. And there are many in either camp who throw stones at the other side. I merely want to caution others to remain innocent of these things.

Maybe grasping for clarification.

No, people might not take the way out, but if a person is truly seeking the Lord and walking in the Spirit, God is faithful and will offer grace to enable him to ward off the temptation. This is a must, James tells us that when we give into temptation, it leads to sin which then leads to death.

If obeying is trying to "earn merit" than Jesus would not have mentioned obedience on our part, but He did tell us to obey.

 

[Axehead]

I'm shocked at this...let me find the appropriate emoticon... ...there!!!

Notice that you selected verses from the gospel of John. Now look up the Greek for how we are to believe. John was a spiritual man and he used spiritual imagery...he said we need to believe INTO Jesus. He doesn't lay out the cost...just WHERE we need to be to have eternal life.

This does not in any way diminish the necessity for a death to sin BEFORE one can find himself actually IN Christ. Jesus does not drive the getaway car for our sin heists!

Let me help, Episkopos.

 

[Episkopos]

Let me help, Episkopos.

Axe...you have a way with ...word!

;)

 

[Axehead]

Jesus says it is. Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Works of the flesh are sin are they not. (Gal 5)

You work for wages, don't you?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isa 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

Psa 28:4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Good works, good wages.

Psa 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Now, with the Holy Spirit and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, we know our works are not in vain.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Axehead

Axe...you have a way with ...word!

;)

 

[williemac]

I'm shocked at this...let me find the appropriate emoticon... ...there!!!

Notice that you selected verses from the gospel of John. Now look up the Greek for how we are to believe. John was a spiritual man and he used spiritual imagery...he said we need to believe INTO Jesus. He doesn't lay out the cost...just WHERE we need to be to have eternal life.

This does not in any way diminish the necessity for a death to sin BEFORE one can find himself actually IN Christ. Jesus does not drive the getaway car for our sin heists!

Fantasy, my friend. Believing "into" Jesus? What on earth does that mean? O, I know, what ever you decide, right? What it means is what it has meant in every context it is used. It means to accept the sacrifice offered on our behalf for sin. It is a matter of trust. It is often quoted as believing "on" Jesus. As well, I absolutely agree that there must be a death concerning sin. But are we going to take the death of Jesus as a partial payment?
What is all this nonesense about a getaway car? The sin issue was something that mankind has been proven to have no solution to. God is the solver of our problem. In response to Axeheads above post, Rom.chapter 2 was written as a basis for the rest of the letter. It gives the foundation for the need for grace. It must be read as a precurser to the next chapter which concludes that on the basis of God's judgment, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:23), and here is the next verse...(Rom.3:24) " being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ". These fall on the heels of verse 19.." Now we know that whatever the law says it say to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world become guilty before God" That is the conclusion that comes from chapter 2. No one ever succeeded in being rewarded with eternal life under the system of judging a man by his works or by his own righteousness.

The wages of sin is death...of that there is no argument....but the gift of God is eternal life. According to some, the gift is no gift at all, being offered under conditions that no man has ever succeeded in accomplishing. If we want to talk about walking IN Christ, then fine. But getting to the point of actually being IN Him, is not arrived at by our own flesh.

Jesus Himself said " I did not come to judge the world but to save the world" (John12:47)
As well, John 5:24.." Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death into life".

The key to everlsting life is not in passing His judgement for it, but rather escaping it....BY FAITH.

 

[Episkopos]

Fantasy, my friend. Believing "into" Jesus? What on earth does that mean? O, I know, what ever you decide, right? What it means is what it has meant in every context it is used. It means to accept the sacrifice offered on our behalf for sin. It is a matter of trust. It is often quoted as believing "on" Jesus. As well, I absolutely agree that there must be a death concerning sin. But are we going to take the death of Jesus as a partial payment?
What is all this nonesense about a getaway car? The sin issue was something that mankind has been proven to have no solution to. God is the solver of our problem. In response to Axeheads above post, Rom.chapter 2 was written as a basis for the rest of the letter. It gives the foundation for the need for grace. It must be read as a precurser to the next chapter which concludes that on the basis of God's judgment, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:23), and here is the next verse...(Rom.3:24) " being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ". These fall on the heels of verse 19.." Now we know that whatever the law says it say to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world become guilty before God" That is the conclusion that comes from chapter 2. No one ever succeeded in being rewarded with eternal life under the system of judging a man by his works or by his own righteousness.
The wages of sin is death...of that there is no argument....but the gift of God is eternal life. According to you, the gift is no gift at all, being offered under conditions that no man has ever succeeded in accomplishing. If we want to talk about waliking IN Christ, then fine. But getting to the point of actually being IN Him, is not arrived at by our own flesh.

We enter in by seeking anf finding. We believe into Jesus the way we enter a house. Jesus is the door..and His words are the door INTO Him. We come out of our own house and enter His. That is the message of John. There is no provision for just having a belief in Jesus while still residing in our own houses, so to speak. Salvation is in Christ....so we must strive to enter into Him.

What does that look like?

Walking in the Spirit!!! Just as John said...when we abide in Christ we walk as Jesus walked. Paul also says this...that when we walk in the Spirit we keep putting to death the deeds of the flesh. The Spirit is life...but remaining in our own strength is death.

 

[Axehead]

We enter in by seeking anf finding. We believe into Jesus the way we enter a house. Jesus is the door..and His words are the door INTO Him. We come out of our own house and enter His. That is the message of John. There is no provision for just having a belief in Jesus while still residing in our own houses, so to speak. Salvation is in Christ....so we must strive to enter into Him.

What does that look like?

Walking in the Spirit!!! Just as John said...when we abide in Christ we walk as Jesus walked. Paul also says this...that when we walk in the Spirit we keep putting to death the deeds of the flesh. The Spirit is life...but remaining in our own strength is death.

We enter in by seeking anf finding. We believe into Jesus the way we enter a house. Jesus is the door..and His words are the door INTO Him. We come out of our own house and enter His. That is the message of John. There is no provision for just having a belief in Jesus while still residing in our own houses, so to speak. Salvation is in Christ....so we must strive to enter into Him.

What does that look like?

Walking in the Spirit!!! Just as John said...when we abide in Christ we walk as Jesus walked. Paul also says this...that when we walk in the Spirit we keep putting to death the deeds of the flesh. The Spirit is life...but remaining in our own strength is death.

Amen brother!

These verses presuppose that we are abiding in Christ but that we can also choose not to abide in Christ (walk after the flesh).


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is our choice to "remain in Him". Just like Paul tells us to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh". Paul is writing to Christians, here.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. (the Armour of Light is Jesus Christ).

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, (armour of God again, is Jesus Christ Himself) that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

There is also the "putting off" of the works of darkness.

The PUTTING ON and the PUTTING OFF are WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS that EVERY CHRISTIAN is CALLED TO.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Those engaged in "putting on" and "putting off" are engaged in very active works or actions of Righteous Works. There is nothing passive about "putting on Christ" or "putting off the old man with his deeds".

Those who have active BELIEVING FAITH in the LORD JESUS will be agressively engaged in the PUTTING on of the Lord Jesus and the PUTTING OFF of the WORKS of DARKNESS.

And everybody

said AMEN!!

Axehead

 

[williemac]

We enter in by seeking anf finding. We believe into Jesus the way we enter a house. Jesus is the door..and His words are the door INTO Him. We come out of our own house and enter His. That is the message of John. There is no provision for just having a belief in Jesus while still residing in our own houses, so to speak. Salvation is in Christ....so we must strive to enter into Him.

What does that look like?

Walking in the Spirit!!! Just as John said...when we abide in Christ we walk as Jesus walked. Paul also says this...that when we walk in the Spirit we keep putting to death the deeds of the flesh. The Spirit is life...but remaining in our own strength is death.

We have been around this mountain already. Entering into Christ is initially done by faith. This is called the new birth. It happens as Jesus described in John 3:16 in speaking to Nicodemus on the subject. One does not strive to enter into Christ. One partakes of His body and blood by faith, by the acceptance of the sacrifice that was made on our behalf for the sin which is in us from Adam.

Furthermore, The Holy Spirit is also received by the hearing of faith and not by works of law (Gal.3:5). As for walking in the Spirit, this is not done to determine salvation. The life and death mentioned by Paul are not in the category of "everlasting life".

I don't know how many times I must repeat this and get an agreement, only to be contradicted in another thread or another post, or by another of the three of you who are promoting the same message.

One initially comes into the family of God by way of the new birth...BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE. One also receives the Holy Spirit....BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE.
One cannot walk in the Spirit in order to get the spirit. One cannot walk in Christ in order to get Christ. These come first. And when it comes to salvation, these come about by faith and confession as well ( Rom.10:9,10). These principles are clearly outlined and confirmed over and over in the bible and cannot be misunderstood. But Paul mentioned the stumbling stone. Why do men stumble on these things? Simply because it is also a temptation to have a desire to be justified before God by way of our own striving.


One cannot bear fruit apart from being the actual tree. We are the righteousness of God IN CHRIST.

All of the passages that you (three) are quoting concerning being cast out for sin, apply to those who are not in Christ. He will say to those.." I never knew you". How can He say such a thing to one whom He has known? This is not rocket surgery!!
Those who do not belong to Jesus will be judged by the flesh and therefore by the law, and therefore will be condemned, because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory.

Those who are in Christ by faith, as Jesus Himself promised, which I quoted in the previous reply from John 5:24, shall not come into the judgment of condemnation, but have passed form death to life. If you want to ignore His words that is your choice, but if you want to discuss this subject openly and honestly with others such as myself, I would appresiate some acknowledgment of the passages I am quoting from and an explanation of how it is that they do not apply to this subject.

I have explained how your references apply to this subject. I have acknowledged the need for walking in the Spirit and the need for doing diligence to what has been given us, but have also shared the truth that these things have no bearing on determining our eternal destiny. As the scripture assures us, those who are in Christ have passed from judgement, from death, and will not be condemned along with those whom Jesus does not know.

The rewards and accompanying honor for what we do in this life in Christ are certainly at stake. We would be remiss in settling for the life that barely makes it in, as though through fire. But as soon as the suggestion comes along that makes salvation a matter of what we do in this life after we have received everlasting life, then we enter into that which has been labelled as LEAVEN. This is the mixture of the two covenants. Paul asked the Galatians who has bewitched them. It is sometimes said that sin causes one to fall from grace, but the fact is, one falls from grace when he goes back to trying to be justified for life by way of works of law. And just so there is no confusing this, sin is transgression of law.

If one quits sinning, he is keeping the law. Is this ok? By all means, as long as it is not done for justification for life.

But this is exactly what you and a few others are suggesting. Therefore you will meet with the same resistance from myself and others as what the Galatians got from Paul. Having begun in the spirit, are we now being made perfect by the flesh? This question was given to those who already had the spirit. They were also told by Paul to walk in the spirit. But in the exact same letter, he warned them that they are not justified for life by this, but that justification comes by faith and faith alone. In their attempt to be justified by the law, this was what Paul called being justified by the flesh.

There can be no mistaking this. We are not being made perfect by what we do in our bodies (flesh). We are not being made perfect by our works, even though they may well be in the Spirit. Our works are not for the purpose of making us perfect or complete. We do not complete the job for ourselves. It is His work He has begun in us and His to finish. And this is exactly what He has promised, as long as one does not completely bury that which Christ has given him. Even a little fruit is enough. We have this assurance.

If you have a problem with this, is your eye evil because He is good? Does it bother you that life is a free gift? If so, then maybe it is because you would rather earn it as a reward rather than humbly accept it without merit. I doubt that this is consciously the case, but then there are these posts that seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[Episkopos]

We have been around this mountain already. Entering into Christ is initially done by faith. This is called the new birth. It happens as Jesus described in John 3:16 in speaking to Nicodemus on the subject. One does not strive to enter into Christ. One partakes of His body and blood by faith, by the acceptance of the sacrifice that was made on our behalf for the sin which is in us from Adam.

We enter by faith because God accepted the sacrifice...not us. We are never consulted as to the efficacy of Jesus' blood.

Furthermore, The Holy Spirit is also received by the hearing of faith and not by works of law (Gal.3:5). As for walking in the Spirit, this is not done to determine salvation. The life and death mentioned by Paul are not in the category of "everlasting life".

yes! No one ever received the Spirit through circumcision or eating kosher.

walking in the Spirit does determine salvation...our continuing in the obedience of faith.

I don't know how many times I must repeat this and get an agreement, only to be contradicted in another thread or another post, or by another of the three of you who are promoting the same message.

You are being corrected on an errant surmising of what you consider the gospel truth.

One initially comes into the family of God by way of the new birth...BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE. One also receives the Holy Spirit....BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE.

Initial salvation is by the gift of repentance and of faith towards God.

One cannot walk in the Spirit in order to get the spirit. One cannot walk in Christ in order to get Christ. These come first. And when it comes to salvation, these come about by faith and confession as well ( Rom.10:9,10). These principles are clearly outlined and confirmed over and over in the bible and cannot be misunderstood. But Paul mentioned the stumbling stone. Why do men stumble on these things? Simply because it is also a temptation to have a desire to be justified before God by way of our own striving.

One walks in the Spirit to KEEP the Spirit. What we strive for is to back-fill, as it were, a righteous lifestyle under the walk of faith. So we are adding Christian character through grace by faith. This is how we are proceeding to save our souls. God saves our spirits by adding His Spirit...but we must die to release this potential into our lives. Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies...

On top of this we must produce a vessel that is worthy to contain the glory of God. Grace helps us to do this...which is akin to making another talent for the one we have been given.

One cannot bear fruit apart from being the actual tree. We are the righteousness of God IN CHRIST.

We become the righteousness in Christ by remaining in Him.

All of the passages that you (three) are quoting concerning being cast out for sin, apply to those who are not in Christ. He will say to those.." I never knew you". How can He say such a thing to one whom He has known? This is not rocket surgery!!
Those who do not belong to Jesus will be judged by the flesh and therefore by the law, and therefore will be condemned, because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory.

We are many here!! :)

We are cast out for not remaining in the place where Jesus is. We go our own way thinking we are bringing salvation with us...but salvation remains WHERE JESUS IS. That just happens to be Zion in the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ by faith, as Jesus Himself promised, which I quoted in the previous reply from John 5:24, shall not come into the judgment of condemnation, but have passed form death to life. If you want to ignore His words that is your choice, but if you want to discuss this subject openly and honestly with others such as myself, I would appresiate some acknowledgment of the passages I am quoting from and an explanation of how it is that they do not apply to this subject.

Those who are IN Christ are holy...they abide in the light and in life everlasting.

I have explained how your references apply to this subject. I have acknowledged the need for walking in the Spirit and the need for doing diligence to what has been given us, but have also shared the truth that these things have no bearing on determining our eternal destiny. As the scripture assures us, those who are in Christ have passed from judgement, from death, and will not be condemned along with those whom Jesus does not know.

They have every bearing on eternal destiny. Salvation once is not a guarantee of salvation forever. We have entered a race that must be run till the end. Afterwards we receive the crown...or not. Your scheme involves an unrighteous stance that makes you a winner no matter what. Heads you win tails you lose. This is a false balance and this = iniquity. Be careful!

The rewards and accompanying honor for what we do in this life in Christ are certainly at stake. We would be remiss in settling for the life that barely makes it in, as though through fire. But as soon as the suggestion comes along that makes salvation a matter of what we do in this life after we have received everlasting life, then we enter into that which has been labelled as LEAVEN. This is the mixture of the two covenants. Paul asked the Galatians who has bewitched them. It is sometimes said that sin causes one to fall from grace, but the fact is, one falls from grace when he goes back to trying to be justified for life by way of works of law. And just so there is no confusing this, sin is transgression of law.

Again...if one finishes the race with honour that one receives a reward...if one FINISHES the race but with dishonour then that one survives in outer darkness (suffers a great loss)

If one quits sinning, he is keeping the law. Is this ok? By all means, as long as it is not done for justification for life.

Agreed

But this is exactly what you and a few others are suggesting. Therefore you will meet with the same resistance from myself and others as what the Galatians got from Paul. Having begun in the spirit, are we now being made perfect by the flesh? This question was given to those who already had the spirit. They were also told by Paul to walk in the spirit. But in the exact same letter, he warned them that they are not justified for life by this, but that justification comes by faith and faith alone. In their attempt to be justified by the law, this was what Paul called being justified by the flesh.

We are suggesting getting with God's program of holiness rather men's agenda of a guaranteed life insurance policy.

No one is advocating being justified by archaic holiness laws (like circumcision) that are done away with in Christ. Stop saying we are and we will stop saying you are advocating disobedience to God's face.

There can be no mistaking this. We are not being made perfect by what we do in our bodies (flesh). We are not being made perfect by our works, even though they may well be in the Spirit. Our works are not for the purpose of making us perfect or complete. We do not complete the job for ourselves. It is His work He has begun in us and His to finish. And this is exactly what He has promised, as long as one does not completely bury that which Christ has given him. Even a little fruit is enough. We have this assurance.

We are being made perfect in love. Our works are to show forth the witness of our testimony of a perfect Saviour. He does the work through us. A little fruit is not enough. We must bring the fruit to perfection.

Luk_8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Why must you lower the standard of the will of God? Do you wish for God to get less?

If you have a problem with this, is your eye evil because He is good? Does it bother you that life is a free gift? If so, then maybe it is because you would rather earn it as a reward rather than humbly accept it without merit. I doubt that this is consciously the case, but then there are these posts that seem to indicate otherwise.

We begin with life...then we decide which path we will follow...the world? or Christ?

We are running to be accepted in the beloved....the bride of Christ!!!! Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[williemac]

We enter by faith because God accepted the sacrifice...not us. We are never consulted as to the efficacy of Jesus' blood.

No, this denies what has been written and quoted over and over from many references. Your opinion does not comply with scripture. We most certainly are consulted as to our response to the gospel. Faith comes by hearing. God certainly did accept the sacrifice, as He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing thier trespasses to them (2Cor.5:19), and has given us the ministry of reconciliation...."as though God were pleading through us:we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God" (vs20). God is the initiator of the relationship. Mankind is required to individually respond. No relationship is one sided. It takes a willingness from both parties. God does not force us into a relationship, He courts us.

yes! No one ever received the Spirit through circumcision or eating kosher.

walking in the Spirit does determine salvation...our continuing in the obedience of faith.

Salvation is determined by what the bible says. One place I have quoted from is Rom.10:9,10. You have denied the bible and have promoted a man made doctrine that is contrary to the bible. Our life in Christ begins with faith and is sustained by faith. It does not venture into another arena called works.

You are being corrected on an errant surmising of what you consider the gospel truth.

Hey, if you disagree, then why do you not respond to the passages I quote?

Initial salvation is by the gift of repentance and of faith towards God.

These are not individual gifts. They are something that all mankind possess the ability to do. We all have the ability to reason and respond. We are not puppets, nor robots. Your position is that of a Calvanist.

One walks in the Spirit to KEEP the Spirit. What we strive for is to back-fill, as it were, a righteous lifestyle under the walk of faith. So we are adding Christian character through grace by faith. This is how we are proceeding to save our souls. God saves our spirits by adding His Spirit...but we must die to release this potential into our lives. Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies...

One walks in the Spirit to bear fruit for rewards in the next life. The position that one's walk determines his eternal destiny, is the same violation that Paul rebuked the Galatians for. We cannot save ourselves. We do not save our own souls. This is self righteousness in a subtle disguise.

On top of this we must produce a vessel that is worthy to contain the glory of God. Grace helps us to do this...which is akin to making another talent for the one we have been given.

I have no argument with this goal. But it is not done in order to keep or attain salvation.

We become the righteousness in Christ by remaining in Him.

We remain in Him the same way we received Him...BY FAITH and fellowship, not by works. We do not become the righteousness in Him by what we do. It happens the minute we are born again. We become it when we receive His righteousness as a gift and we merely walk in it.