Is Sound Doctrine Essential for Salvation?

[Behold]

Not someone reading and personally interpreting his/her Bible.

Every single "church father" who is of the "cult of Mary", ... every single thing they ever wrote is "their interpretation" of the "bible"

So, do you not study them, believe them, and teach what THEY taught?

So, you are the very victim of your own Post, @Augustine56.

See it?

The NAME you chose as your ALT... is one more person who "interprets the bible according to their idea, and concepts"

So, dont you realize this?

Its time you do...

 

[Augustin56]

Every single "church father" who is of the "cult of Mary", ... every single thing they ever wrote is "their interpretation" of the "bible"

So, do you not study them, believe them, and teach what THEY taught?

So, you are the very victim of your own Post, @Augustine56.

See it?

We don't hold the Early Church Fathers to be infallible in everything they say. We look to them to get an idea of how they viewed and lived the faith since they lived closest in time to Christ when the Church was young.

Since there was no New Testament assembled until the late 4th Century, they relied mostly on oral teaching. There were, of course, over 300 documents that had been written on the faith that were considered "important," including the 27 we now call the New Testament, but they were not officially called Scripture until the Church did so in the late 4th Century. Some of the 300 documents they were sure would make the cut, like the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache, didn't make it. Some others, most had never heard of. So, your idea of someone in the Early Church sitting down with a King James Bible, flipping through the pages, etc., could not possibly have happened. Teaching was mostly oral. See 2 Thes 2:15, where St. Paul places Oral Tradition (oral teaching) on a level with Written tradition (Scripture). The New Testament came FROM Oral Tradition. The Old Testament already existed, and almost every time, in the New Testament, when you see the word Scripture, it is referring to Old Testament Scripture, since the New Testament hadn't been decided yet.

With regard to Mary, it kind of sounds like you're off on a tangent. Mary is Christ's mother. We honor Mary, just as Christ would have honored Mary, unless you are claiming that Christ broke one of the 10 Commandments? (Honor thy Father and Mother.) We honor the Saints, especially the Mother of God. The word for honor that was used was dulia. Except in Mary's case, it is hyper-dulia. The worship due God is entirely different, and is called latria. I can expand on Mary, if you like. Even the father of Protestantism, Martin Luther, had a great devotion to Mary. He held that she had been immaculately conceived and was a perpetual virgin. See some of his thoughts here:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)}

Even John Calvin, another Reformer, had great devotion to Mary, believing that she was a perpetual virgin.

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."​

 

[Behold]

We don't hold the Early Church Fathers to be infallible in everything they say.

Your Pope would not agree with you.
So, i'll leave you to think about it.,, as your entire "cult of mary", is built on man made tradition.

We look to them to get an idea of how they viewed and lived the faith since they lived closest in time to Christ when the Church was young.

No, you look to "Cult of Mary" writers as some type of authority.

Since there was no New Testament assembled until the late 4th Century, they relied mostly on oral teaching.

There was always the Apostles and their converts, true.
There were the Apostles letters, and they were copied and delivered to the local churches.

You might want to find out why the Father of Gnosticism, "Valentinus", almost became a POPE.

So, your idea of someone in the Early Church sitting down with a King James Bible, flipping through the pages,

Ive said nothing about the KJV, or anything related to what you just stated.
Perhaps you should stop smoking your pipe dream, and begin to exit in reality?

With regard to Mary, it kind of sounds like you're off on a tangent. Mary is Christ's mother.

And she's nothing more.
Mary was a sinner, just like you, who needed to come to the Cross of Christ and be FORGIVEN her sin.... Just like YOU and just like your current Pope and all his false forerunners...
And water baptism cant do that for you, and IF you believe it did, you are in a serious situation...
The "Bible" says that "Mary is favored/blessed among women" and yet your cult of Mary, that is the original title of your "church" given by "church fathers', in Ephesus, about 4-5 ad, till this very day, proclaims her as "Mediatrix" and "co-author of salvation"...along with other assorted "cult of MARY", man-made nonsense.
Even you have been told the lie that Mary is going to be there at your death...

So, the "cult of Mary" is offensive to Truth, and is a very clever man made cult... and nothing more.
This same CULT, created the DARK AGES, and so much more horror.

So, keep looking at this photo while you keep lying to these members about the "CULT... OF... MARY"

See you there.

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[Augustin56]

Your Pope would not agree with you.
So, i'll leave you to think about it.,, as your entire "cult of mary", is built on man made tradition.



No, you look to "Cult of Mary" writers as some type of authority.




There was always the Apostles and their converts, true.
There were the Apostles letters, and they were copied and delivered to the local churches.

You might want to find out why the Father of Gnosticism, "Valentinus", almost became a POPE.




Ive said nothing about the KJV, or anything related to what you just stated.
Perhaps you should stop smoking your pipe dream, and begin to exit in reality?



And she's nothing more.
The "Bible" says that "Mary is favored/blessed among women" and yet your cult of Mary, that is the original title of your "church" given by "church fathers', in Ephesus, about 4-5 ad, till this very day, proclaims here as "Mediatrix" and "co-author of salvation"...along with other assorted "cult of MARY", nonsense.
Even you have been told the lie that Mary is going to be there at your death...

So, the "cult of Mary" is offensive to Truth, and is a very clever man made cult... and nothing more.
This same CULT, created the DARK AGES, and so much more horror.

So, keep looking at this photo while you keep lying to these members about the "CULT... OF... MARY"


See you there..View attachment 40555
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The Catholic Church is built upon the teachings of Christ. All the teachings of Christ, unblemished and unchanged.

Think for a moment... IF the Catholic Church, which was the only Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity, does not have the fullness of Christ's teaching, WHERE did they come from? Did Christ come back with a list of "corrections" to what was always taught? Or an angel (as the Mormon's seem to believe)? WHERE?

The Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John, were members of the ONLY Christian Church, the Catholic Church, at that time. I would hold them as authoritative, wouldn't you? Same with the writers of the epistles, St. Paul, et al.

You mentioned that Valentinus "almost became Pope." Looks like God stopped him, eh? Judas Iscariot almost became a Saint, too, but he didn't. Almost counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs, but not sainthood.

With regard to the KJV bible, etc. Where do you think the Bible came from, literally? Did God reach a Big Hand down and give a copy to someone and say, "Hey, run over to the nearest Kinko's, make as many copies of this as you can, give it out, teach people to read (since the vast majority of people were illiterate until the last 100 years of current history), and tell them that whatever they, personally, interpret, will be true!" Did He do that? I think not. Christ didn't write a book to spread His truths, He founded a (ONE) Church, which St. Paul refers to in 1 Tim 3:15 as the "pillar and foundation of truth." I suspect you believe that Christ's Church failed, and some yahoo coming along 16 centuries later somehow discovered the right answer out of the clear blue. IF so, which one of the 10's of thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations was it?

With regard to Mary in Scripture, you illustrate the problem with reading a translation into English through 21st century cultural lenses. It helps to look at the original Greek. In Luke 1:28, Gabriel’s salutation, “Hail, full of grace,” (kaire, kecharitomene, Greek) is not an ordinary greeting. The angel doesn’t call Mary by her given name (Miryam), but instead gives her a new name or title: “full of grace.” The renaming of Mary also conveys how names communicate something that is permanent about the character of the one named (Abram changed to Abraham—Gen. 17:5, l5; Jacob changed to Israel—Gen. 32:28).

To understand the significance of this name change and how it points to Mary being conceived without sin, we look to the Greek word kecharitomene (“full of grace”), a perfect passive participle, coming from the root word charitoo, or grace, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” It denotes an action having taken place in the past, before the announcement of the angel, and one that continues throughout her existence. Understood in this way, the words of the angel “full of grace” (free from all stain of original and actual sin) extend to the moment of Mary’s conception and throughout her earthly life.

 

[Behold]

The Catholic Church is built upon the teachings of Christ.

YET,

THE True Church of Christ is built mostly on the teachings of Paul, as its His Epistles that are the doctrine for the church.
Did you never wonder why Peter has 2 Epistles and Paul has 13?

WAKE UP...

Even PETER in 2 Peter, said that "Paul's letters" are ""SCRIPTURE""... and that is your so called "1st Pope" writing about Paul's letters, .. stating they are equal to the TORAH... at that time.
HE WAS Correct.
Your "cult of mary" is not.

So, like all devout Catholics ive ever met, you have no idea about Paul, or any of this, because your "cult of mary" is not built on the NT.
Its built on "cult of mary" man made traditions and ideas, and most are false.

Even the "ascension of Mary", that your cult teaches.. didnt come from early records, or any of this.
It came from one more deceived lying POPE< who declared this nonsense in '1950.
See that?
That is your "cult of mary" once again trying to give Mary credit for something that isn't true.

Your entire cult is exactly like that... its always built on top of the next false doctrine that some Pope or "church father" decided that you are to believe.
(and you better believe it or you'll be out there doing some penance).....
And so....you believe it all, because that is the nature of deception...
Your "cult of Mary" didn't authorized your cult of mary members to read a bible for themselves, to find out what it says.. until '1961.
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[Augustin56]

YET,

THE True Church of Christ is built mostly on the teachings of Paul, as its His Epistles that are the doctrine for the church.
Did you never wonder why Peter has 2 Epistles and Paul has 13?

WAKE UP...

Even PETER in 2 Peter, said that "Paul's letters" are ""SCRIPTURE""... and that is your so called "1st Pope" writing about Paul's letters, .. stating they are equal to the TORAH... at that time.
HE WAS Correct.
Your "cult of mary" is not.

So, like all devout Catholics ive ever met, you have no idea about Paul, or any of this, because your "cult of mary" is not built on the NT.
Its built on "cult of mary" man made traditions and ideas, and most are false.

Even the "ascension of Mary", that your cult teaches.. didnt come from early records, or any of this.
It came from one more deceived lying POPE< who declared this nonsense in '1950.
See that?
That is your "cult of mary" once again trying to give Mary credit for something that isn't true.

Your entire cult is exactly like that... its always built on top of the next false doctrine that some Pope or "church father" decided that you are to believe.
(and you better believe it or you'll be out there doing some penance).....
And so....you believe it all, because that is the nature of deception...
Your "cult of Mary" didn't authorized your cult of mary members to read a bible for themselves, to find out what it says.. until '1961.
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View attachment 40556

It would be helpful if you know what you were talking about. But, alas, that's not the case.

There is no doctrine called "the ascension of Mary." There is a doctrine called the "Assumption of Mary" that states that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her life. But the doctrine wasn't "created" in 1950. It was formalized in 1950. Big difference.

You don't seem to be open to learning the truth. Your posts are so full of error, I wouldn't even know where to begin. You're thoroughly indoctrinated to the errors that came in the last 500 years or less. I'll pray for you.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It would be helpful if you know what you were talking about. But, alas, that's not the case.

There is no doctrine called "the ascension of Mary." There is a doctrine called the "Assumption of Mary" that states that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her life. But the doctrine wasn't "created" in 1950. It was formalized in 1950. Big difference.

You don't seem to be open to learning the truth. Your posts are so full of error, I wouldn't even know where to begin. You're thoroughly indoctrinated to the errors that came in the last 500 years or less. I'll pray for you.

All this Mary stuff is fake gospel.... not even worth messing with

 

[Behold]

I'll pray for you.

Thank you, i need the prayer, and you need the practice...

If possible could you send some money to the NYC Jesuit's and buy one of theirs for me, as that's the good stuff..

So, i'll leave that to your discretion, and the readers to your cult of mary, synopsis.

And one more, just for you..

Be sure you study..

------

In the early part of the 3rd century, Hippolytus of Rome recorded the first liturgical reference to the Virgin Mary, as part of the ordination rite of a Bishop..

The Council of Ephesus in 431 sanctioned the cult of the Virgin as Mother of God;

Then....
Pope Gregory’s reading of the role of Mary would be repeated by monks and priests. They would weave in to the Gospels his readings as if they were Gospel themselves soon forgetting that it was myth. The words of Gregory soon became a reality. The birth of the cult of the Virgin Mary had begun. She became a pure and perfect form of womanhood, an expectation of perfection within the female form.

Next..

The Virgin Mary, known as the Theotokos in Greek terminology, was central to Byzantine spirituality as one of its most important religious figures.. . As the mediator between suffering mankind and Christ and the protectress of Constantinople, Mary was widely venerated....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You might want to find out why the Father of Gnosticism, "Valentinus", almost became a POPE.

Gnosticism was already pretty much codified by the time Valentinus was born, never mind when he became a bishop. It was long established. He maybe was a great granchild of gnosticism.

BTW: When are you goiong to reveal to us the biblical evidence you have to support your allegation that the five points of Calvinism is demonic.

 

[Behold]

Gnosticism was already pretty much codified by the time Valentinus was born,

Valentinus is known as the "Father" of Gnosticism.
Why?
Because he founded the Roman and Alexandrian schools of gnosticism, in about 2AD.

Its interesting that He almost became a POPE.
But that is no surprise, as the "cult of mary" is capable of anything.

 

[Behold]

BTW: When are you goiong to reveal to us the biblical evidence you have to support your allegation that the five points of Calvinism is demonic.

You are back again, chasing me around, because you need to preach some more John Calvinism?

That's a pathetic reason to be on a Forum.

Also...Ive revealed much about John Calvinism, and why its a doctrine of devils.... using the NT many times.

Its always the case that a person like you, who is deeply deceived by it, ... can't recognize anything that's wrong with it.
Mormon's have the Same issue.
As do Catholics.
As do JWs
See, once the cult has your mind, your mind is not your own, anymore.

One of the Mods here, i think its Pompadour, wrote a typical anti-Calvin Thread.
If you like, i can try to find it for you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Gnosticism was already pretty much codified by the time Valentinus was born, never mind when he became a bishop. It was long established. He maybe was a great granchild of gnosticism.

BTW: When are you goiong to reveal to us the biblical evidence you have to support your allegation that the five points of Calvinism is demonic.

Do you believe in all 5 points of Calvinism, Brother?

 

[Behold]

Do you believe in all 5 points of Calvinism, Brother?

A,) ZERO


The Devil would like Ronald to use me in a discussion about Calvin's Doctrine, so that HE can (Preach this Doctrine of Devils)....= lay it out for people to read it, and then it can take over their theology and MIND, as it's done to Him
So, He'll never see that day, tho he keeps looking for it.

Believe it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you, i need the prayer, and you need the practice...

If possible could you send some money to the NYC Jesuit's and buy one of theirs for me, as that's the good stuff..

So, i'll leave that to your discretion, and the readers to your cult of mary, synopsis.

And one more, just for you..

Be sure you study..

------

In the early part of the 3rd century, Hippolytus of Rome recorded the first liturgical reference to the Virgin Mary, as part of the ordination rite of a Bishop..

That’s a silly point.

Tertullian was the first to use the term, “Trinity” in the late 2md century.
Does that mean that belief in the triune Godhead didn’t exist before then??

The Council of Ephesus in 431 sanctioned the cult of the Virgin as Mother of God;

Then....
Pope Gregory’s reading of the role of Mary would be repeated by monks and priests. They would weave in to the Gospels his readings as if they were Gospel themselves soon forgetting that it was myth. The words of Gregory soon became a reality. The birth of the cult of the Virgin Mary had begun. She became a pure and perfect form of womanhood, an expectation of perfection within the female form.

Next..

The Virgin Mary, known as the Theotokos in Greek terminology, was central to Byzantine spirituality as one of its most important religious figures.. . As the mediator between suffering mankind and Christ and the protectress of Constantinople, Mary was widely venerated....

The Council of Ephesus dealt with the Nestorian Heresy, which questioned the deity of Jesus Christ. It was declared that the Son is indeed fully human and fully God. This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

To emphasize this teaching – Mary was declared the “God-bearer” (Theotokos) because she bore the Son who is GOD in her womb.
So, unless you deny that Jesus is God – Mary is indeed the Mother of God.

The doctrine does NOT teach that she is the mother of the Trinity.

 

[Behold]

That’s a silly point.

Tertullian was the first to use the term, “Trinity” in the late 2md century.
Does that mean that belief in the triune Godhead didn’t exist before then??

Jesus, before He was the One who said....."before Abraham was born, I AM"....

= Before He said that, He had been in Heaven......and that is why He said......."I am from Above, and you are from below" to the listeners.

So, before there was a "cult of mary" that has deceived you , there was this.

"And the WORD was God".,, and He is Jesus, pre-incarnate.

If you read John 1:10, you see that Jesus is in the world as a man, and He created it..... the verse says.
Its says this and more about HIM in : Colossians 1:16

Notice that verse i posted....>"before Abraham was born, i am".. and that is just like "I AM... from above and you are from below'.

See those...>"i am".

That is God's answer to Moses when asked... "what is your name".....and God said to Moses what Jesus to the Pharisees..

The same Title... "i am".
And they wanted to kill him for it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you believe in all 5 points of Calvinism, Brother?

yes I do. How many points do you believe in ?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A,) ZERO


The Devil would like Ronald to use me in a discussion about Calvin's Doctrine, so that HE can (Preach this Doctrine of Devils)....= lay it out for people to read it, and then it can take over their theology and MIND, as it's done to Him
So, He'll never see that day, tho he keeps looking for it.

Believe it.

Another lie from your hands! I just want you to support with biblical evidence the allegation you made that the five points of Calvinism are satanic.

Why you refuse to prove your allegations is a telling sign.is a very telling sign.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are back again, chasing me around, because you need to preach some more John Calvinism?

That's a pathetic reason to be on a Forum.

Also...Ive revealed much about John Calvinism, and why its a doctrine of devils.... using the NT many times.

Its always the case that a person like you, who is deeply deceived by it, ... can't recognize anything that's wrong with it.
Mormon's have the Same issue.
As do Catholics.
As do JWs
See, once the cult has your mind, your mind is not your own, anymore.

One of the Mods here, i think its Pompadour, wrote a typical anti-Calvin Thread.
If you like, i can try to find it for you.

No I chase you around Haman because someone needs to act as your Mordechai! I WILL HAUNT YOU UNTIL YOU RPOVIDE THE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR ALLEGATION THAT THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM ARE DEMONIC.

I do not care in the least what this Pompadour wrote about Calvin. what I want is your biblical support to back up you allegation that the fiv epoints are Satanic.

You know what I am asking for and you playing stupid and constantly diverting and deflecting speaks poorly of you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Valentinus is known as the "Father" of Gnosticism.
Why?
Because he founded the Roman and Alexandrian schools of gnosticism, in about 2AD.

Its interesting that He almost became a POPE.
But that is no surprise, as the "cult of mary" is capable of anything.

Well the Valentinus of History was born c. 100AD . the term pope was unknown until the fourth century. so how he could have almost become a pope in the early first century and escape biblical mention is astounding.

 

[Hobie]

A Born Again has spiritual wisdom, only the Holy Spirit can grow and mature us in spiritual understanding/ wisdom.

A Born Again can’t stop the process of becoming Born Again no more than they can stop being Born Again of imperishable seed.

Berean Standard Bible

Par ▾

Paul’s Greeting to the Ephesians
(Acts 19:8–12; Revelation 2:1–7)
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus,a the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings
(Romans 8:28–34)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.
11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.
13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.
Spiritual Wisdom
(1 Corinthians 2:6–16)
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him.
18I ask that the eyes of your heartb may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

And bestow discernment....
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.