is the emphasis on teaching the word damming our souls?

[marksman]

where in scripture does it say that experience is more important than scripture?

This question suggests that we are trying to make the Word fit our belief/experience. We have a tendency to insist on an either/or mindset which in many cases, ignores the fact that it is not either/or, it is both.

When you argue from this premise, one can ask "where in scripture does it say that it is OK to spend $20 million on a building?"

If you do ask, you will be surprised at the contortions and justification people invent from scripture.

I approach this from the perspective that the Word/teaching and experience go hand in hand as you see from scripture.

One of the finest examples of this is Jesus himself. He spent three years teaching the 12 disciples and part of that was experience as he sent them out to heal the sick and cast out demons.

At the same time, some people have this idea that teaching is only done in the classroom setting verbally. Jesus didn't as he regularly taught the disciples through signs and wonders outside the classroom.

There may be a simple explanation for this as some people learn cognitively and some people learn visually. Jesus used both methods of teaching and the most effective teaching is that which is backed up by experience.

I remember attending classes that taught about prophecy and prophesying. Before the course finished, the instructor said that we were going to put into practice what we have learnt and start prophesying.

Once we had started to use the gift of prophecy, we knew without doubt that what we had been taught was the real deal and not just some theoretical speculation.

My advice is to avoid the either/or scenario and test the scriptures by doing what they say. That way you will know God, not just about him.

 

[Butch5]

The gift ministries were given "until." Just when do you expect that to take place and how?

And no, I am not kidding, I am very serious.

What ministry gifts are you referring to?

 

[Justin Mangonel]

The five ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. When the body of Christ comes into maturity these ministries will fade away for their will be no need of them. In other words, if you are in one of these ministries then you are supposed to be working yourself out of a job.

 

[marksman]

The five ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. When the body of Christ comes into maturity these ministries will fade away for their will be no need of them. In other words, if you are in one of these ministries then you are supposed to be working yourself out of a job.

A very good thought Justin. May I suggest a follow up one. Why is it that too many leaders spend all their time ensuring that they are not dispensable? Or to put it another way "God needs me if he is going to achieve what he wants to do."

 

[teamventure]

This question suggests that we are trying to make the Word fit our belief/experience. We have a tendency to insist on an either/or mindset which in many cases, ignores the fact that it is not either/or, it is both.

When you argue from this premise, one can ask "where in scripture does it say that it is OK to spend $20 million on a building?"

If you do ask, you will be surprised at the contortions and justification people invent from scripture.

I approach this from the perspective that the Word/teaching and experience go hand in hand as you see from scripture.

One of the finest examples of this is Jesus himself. He spent three years teaching the 12 disciples and part of that was experience as he sent them out to heal the sick and cast out demons.

At the same time, some people have this idea that teaching is only done in the classroom setting verbally. Jesus didn't as he regularly taught the disciples through signs and wonders outside the classroom.

There may be a simple explanation for this as some people learn cognitively and some people learn visually. Jesus used both methods of teaching and the most effective teaching is that which is backed up by experience.

I remember attending classes that taught about prophecy and prophesying. Before the course finished, the instructor said that we were going to put into practice what we have learnt and start prophesying.

Once we had started to use the gift of prophecy, we knew without doubt that what we had been taught was the real deal and not just some theoretical speculation.

My advice is to avoid the either/or scenario and test the scriptures by doing what they say. That way you will know God, not just about him.

what exactly do you prophecy? and yes, I know God not just about him. prayer is a way to experience God am i right?

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi All,

John had to decread that Jesus might increase. That was really difficult to do...look how he ended up. Yet Jesus praised Him.

So I think that there will come a time when true ministers will fade into the congregation and God will have total control.

 

[teamventure]

listening to the holy spirit sounds like the way to experience God as apposed to chasing signs and wonders marksman. but you're welcome to try and change my mind.

 

[teamventure]

marksman, your silence speaks volumes on the issue.

 

[williemac]

Being away for a while, I am sorry to have missed out on many conversations such as this. In reading through it, I see that this is an old debate...the word vs. the Holy Spirit. There are those who emphasize one over the other. On either side, the motive is usually in response to things such as errors made or to unprofitable use of one or the other, or similar.
In my case, I have encountered many who claim to be hearing from God, and my ears are still ringing from some of the incredibly ridiculous ideas and teachings on the one extreme. But I have also seen subtle erros as well.

On the other hand, there are plenty of Spirit filled people (and otherwise) who have not been able to properly interpret and understand the scrpitures either. But do we respond to this by invalidating either the dependency on the word or the fellowship of the Holy Spirit? To do either would also be unwise.

Paul told Timothy, whom he called an evangelist, to give attention to doctrine, correcting those in opposition. 2Tim.3:16,17 reads..." All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thouroughly equipped for every good work".

I can garuntee that anything the Holy Spirit says to an individual or through an individual, will not be in contradiction with the doctrines found in scripture. But unfortunaltely, many well meaning brothers and sisters speak "thus says the Lord" from the imagination of their own heart. But ought we shun the practice of hearing from God by His Spirit?

It is easy to find and point out things that are wrong within the church. But I would advise that we refrain from knee jerk reactions or otherwise that cause us to go against what God has ordained for the church. There are other solutions. Perhaps God has a few. Maybe we should pray.

 

[teamventure]

my problem isn't with hearing from the holy spirit. my problem is from listening to another spirit and claiming that it's the holy spirit.

 

[veteran]

I see several problematic views on this thread we really should not have.

First question....If teaching is so important, why does the church ignore most of what the word teaches? (see comment above)

Second question....Does teaching help us to know God or know about God?

Third question....It has been said that we are emptying the church by degrees, so what teaching are we talking about here?

Fourth question...If the Holy Spirit is going to lead us into all truth, where does the gift of teaching fit?

Fifth question...How can it be teaching if the hearers are not allowed to question or challenge what is being said?

Sixth question...As the Holy Spirit is not welcome in most church services, how can we be taught anything?

Seventh question....Isn't experience the best teacher?

Eighth question....How do you know what you believe is the truth unless it is challenged or put into practice?

Ninth question...Isn't most teaching in the church a homily, not teaching?

Tenth question....If the teaching was according to scripture, shouldn't we expect the same outcomes as happened in scripture?

1. True Churches do not ignore most of what God's Word teaches. So how does one know whether they're ignoring The Word anyway without FIRST having studied for themselves?

2. Emphatically a BIG yes, teaching in God's Word is an important way that God reveals Himself and how He feels to us. Like Apostle Paul said in Rom.10, Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

3. If a Church just has a sign up saying it's a Church while not teaching The Word of God, then that is not a Church. How could a Church ever expect to be blessed by God while it's too busy doing socials and raising money instead of covering God's Word? Christ told Peter to feed His sheep, and He did not mean the things of this world, but His Word of Truth.

4. God's Holy Writ was GIVEN... by The Holy Spirit, as written (2 Pet.1:21). The last thing The Word of God is, is some mere philosophical book of poetry like men's philosophy. No Christian should ever have such a wordly secularist view of God's Holy Writ.

5. Depends on the situation. The time for open challenging what is taught is not during the main sermon, but afterwards, and also within the Sunday school sessions. If a teacher of God's Word refuses to answer questions, then God did not call that one as a teacher, and the Church is simply filling a spot. This is one of the problems in some Church's Sunday school classes today, lack of competent teachers of God's Word. How does one think that got started? If the student is taught nothing but the 'milk' of God's Word, they grow up teaching others just the 'milk' too. Hebrews 5 is a lesson on this.

6. The idea that the Holy Spirit is not welcome in most Church services is a slanted view. Just because most Church services do not include people jumping up and down speaking in tongues and writhing on the floor does not mean the Holy Spirit is not there! On the contrary. The Holy Spirit is required to get understanding in The Word of God. And I don't see much real Bible teaching going on in those kind of Churches that allow chaos during the service and claim that's from The Holy Spirit. God is not the author of confusion.

7. Experience is NOT the best teacher. One does NOT have to become an alcoholic wobbling down the street in order to 'know' it ain't right. So if Johnny jumps off the cliff, then you have to also, just for the experience? Per Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.11, one of the main reasons for Christian study of the Old Testament Books is because they serve as "ensamples" for us upon whom the end of the world has come. We are to learn from OTHER'S mistakes, not seek to experience 'their' mistakes for ourselves! Afterall, who is the author of the idea, "don't knock it unless you've tried it?"; not God in His Word.

8. The principles God's Word teaches can always be applied in our lives as long as we are willing, and stay focused in Christ Jesus. If one has doubts that God's Word is the Truth, then they need to step back and take a hard look at their life and theirselves as to their Faith. There are many things written in God's Word that we must take on Faith, and we do that because of God's Word showing us how prophesy came to pass before, so it is most definitely a trust issue with our Heavenly Father and His Son. If one doesn't have that trust, then how can they claim to be one of His?

9. This indeed is a problem in many Churches today. It's why so many are on the 'milk' of God's Word still when they ought to be on the "strong meat" of His Word. Too many Churches are run like a business. I know some teenagers that are more knowledgable in God's Word than some seniors that have been attending Church all their lives.

10. If the Bible teaching is in place, the change is always going to be within the believer first by The Holy Spirit. Go to have the foundation first.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear all,

Teaching invites us to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This still brings death although those who teach think they are bringing life. It is only through anointed teachers that the word can and does bring life. Many who try to teach God's word do not teach from experience but merely from theory and therefore there is not life in their words.

Some pastors and teachers are out of order for they have been so long in the vineyard of God they think they own it. The only real way forward is to restore the office of the apostle and prophet to the ministry and for the pastors, teachers, and evangelists to get of their pedestals and back into their god given place.

 

[Rex]

Dear all,

Teaching invites us to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This still brings death although those who teach think they are bringing life. It is only through anointed teachers that the word can and does bring life. Many who try to teach God's word do not teach from experience but merely from theory and therefore there is not life in their words.

Some pastors and teachers are out of order for they have been so long in the vineyard of God they think they own it. The only real way forward is to restore the office of the apostle and prophet to the ministry and for the pastors, teachers, and evangelists to get of their pedestals and back into their god given place.

I think Jesus is God. Just not at His birth. Why are you posting here? Do agree with everything they believe?

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Petere 1:21

Jesus was not born God and is not the second person of the trinity. However, when he was filled with all the fulness of God at His baptism you could not distinquish between Him and God. I was quite clear about that.

So you don't believe in the conception of Jesus as being from God?

It will be a long while before I believe as you do, good luck with your thread title.
is the emphasis on teaching the word damming our souls?

Maybe you should ask, is the lack of Gods word damming your soul?

 

[veteran]

Dear all,

Teaching invites us to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This still brings death although those who teach think they are bringing life. It is only through anointed teachers that the word can and does bring life. Many who try to teach God's word do not teach from experience but merely from theory and therefore there is not life in their words.

Some pastors and teachers are out of order for they have been so long in the vineyard of God they think they own it. The only real way forward is to restore the office of the apostle and prophet to the ministry and for the pastors, teachers, and evangelists to get of their pedestals and back into their god given place.

How can you say that teaching God's Word is comparable to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That is gross... confusion! That KIND of thinking is NOT from our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. You have fallen away to something else entirely!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear V,

You can proclaim this or that all day long but the fact remains that people who go about trying to figure out the scriptures just through their natural minds usually miss the mark and end up as legalists. Many pastors and teachers are exactly as I have discribed them.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Justin Mangonel

I tend to agree with your position on this whole topic.

My observations have brought me to the same conclusions.

 

[aspen]

Hi All,

John had to decread that Jesus might increase. That was really difficult to do...look how he ended up. Yet Jesus praised Him.

So I think that there will come a time when true ministers will fade into the congregation and God will have total control.

Was John talking about power or control when he made this statement? It seems to me that he was talking about our ability and willingness to love one another.

So you don't believe in the conception of Jesus as being from God?

It will be a long while before I believe as you do, good luck with your thread title.
is the emphasis on teaching the word damming our souls?

Maybe you should ask, is the lack of Gods word damming your soul?

Would you follow Jesus if he was not God from birth? Do you really think that God is going to damn people because, despite their devotion to Him, their understanding of doctrine is flawed? Seems to me that we are all susceptible to a flawed understanding of doctrine - thankfully for us, Jesus saves, not doctrine.

 

[Rex]

Would you follow Jesus if he was not God from birth? Do you really think that God is going to damn people because, despite their devotion to Him, their understanding of doctrine is flawed? Seems to me that we are all susceptible to a flawed understanding of doctrine - thankfully for us, Jesus saves, not doctrine.

There's some truth to ignorance is bliss, God will only take into account what you know compared with you have done, so yes, If you have read and heard "know" what is taught and rejected it you will be accountable.

So it's quite a different thing to know and reject as compared to have never known. The demons or fallen angels all know Jesus that's no new information and its nothing uneek as far as those who are saved. Both the dammed and saved believe, but its pretty clear threw the stories who it is that denies and questions the word of God, that distinction is for the dammed alone.

Jesus saves, not doctrine

John 15:3
Eph 5:26

Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

To bad so many can't stand to hear it.

 

[aspen]

Are you questioning Justin's sincerity? We all reject ideas that we believe are outdated or false - I for example have rejected sola scriptura as a man-made idea. I no longer believe it is a true doctrine so does that mean I am damned if I am wrong? If so, I do not agree with you. Jesus saves, not doctrine.

 

[biggandyy]

I think Jesus is God. Just not at His birth. Why are you posting here? Do agree with everything they believe?

When did Jesus "become" God?

At His Baptism by John?
When He was led by the Spirit to be tested in the desert?
At His resurrection (Acts 13:33)?

Or has Jesus ALWAYS been God and at conception was still God and added to His deity the skin of sinful Man?