Is the Holy Spirit needed to believe initially?

[Enoch111]

Yes, of course, thank you for pointing that out. I should have looked it up to get the wording just right--I will correct the original post. But, I think you probably know the point I was making.

Lady Crosstalk,

Since you are new here and from Canada, allow me to offer a Warm Welcome from freezing Alberta. Hope you have some good conversations.

The only problem is that "In electronics, crosstalk is any phenomenon by which a signal transmitted on one circuit or channel of a transmission system creates an undesired effect in another circuit or channel. Crosstalk is usually caused by undesired capacitive, inductive, or conductive coupling from one circuit or channel to another."

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Lady Crosstalk,

Since you are new here and from Canada, allow me to offer a Warm Welcome from freezing Alberta. Hope you have some good conversations.

The only problem is that "In electronics, crosstalk is any phenomenon by which a signal transmitted on one circuit or channel of a transmission system creates an undesired effect in another circuit or channel. Crosstalk is usually caused by undesired capacitive, inductive, or conductive coupling from one circuit or channel to another."

Thank you, the greeting is very appreciated (Canadians really are the sweetest people--I am originally an American, so I can say that ). Crosstalk is probably descriptive of what it is like to exchange thoughts with many of the people here on the boards.

 

[farouk]

Thank you, the greeting is very appreciated (Canadians really are the sweetest people--I am originally an American, so I can say that ). Crosstalk is probably descriptive of what it is like to exchange thoughts with many of the people here on the boards.

Hi, @Lady Crosstalk ; I hope you are accustomed to all the ice up here in Canada by now...

 

[farouk]

In Old Testament times, the Holy Spirit was "hovering over the face of the waters", He was ON the prophets, He was WITH Yahweh's people, He WENT BEFORE them, He CAUSED King Saul to prophesy, etc. He was called, the Ruach Ha Kodesh in Hebrew--the "breath of God". But, He was not IN them--that will not happen until they see their Messiah Jesus, coming in the clouds of heaven and they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Zechariah 12:10 pictures this moment. In Ezekiel 37:14, we are told that (what was then) "in the distant future" Gog (a word that is a generic term for all of Israel's foes) would conquer them like a cloud (in the time of "Jacob's trouble"--aka the Tribulation) but that the Lord God would preserve a remnant of them through it and that they would be filled with God's Spirit and brought into the new Messianic Kingdom (aka--the Millennial Kingdom).

Jesus, and His body, the Church is the "First Fruits" and we have already been given the indwelling Holy Spirit (in part, to make Israel jealous). After the Church departs in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will still be here, because faith is made possible through His convicting power. Some say that He will leave with the Church but, I'm guessing that His work will become more as it was in Old Testament times. I suspect that is why those who convert after the Church is gone, are at risk of the "2nd death"--they will not have the (eternal-life-conferring) permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit until they embrace their Messiah who comes in the clouds to rule and reign "with a rod of iron".

2 Thessalononians 2.7 is often taken to refer to the Holy Spirit: "He who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

 

[farouk]

Acts 16.14 speaks of Lydia, 'whose heart the Lord opened'.

 

[Dave L]

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, doesn't that mean you must first have the Holy Spirit before genuine biblical faith can exist?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

“For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,” (Philippians 1:29)