Is the last antichrist beast a dead man made alive again?

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No Pre-TB

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You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Hmm, John 8:44 says,

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who did Satan murder and how was he perfect if he was a murderer from the beggining and the Father of lies?
 

David in NJ

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8The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it; the cypresses could not compare with its branches, nor the plane trees match its boughs. No tree in the garden of God could compare with its beauty. 9I made it beautiful with its many branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden, which were in the garden of God.’ ----so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him

How do trees in Eden envy a King? or Ezekiel 31:16...who are the trees in Eden?

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Again, its poetic language. Otherwise, explain the 2 passages in Ezekiel.
'Trees' are a generic term/phrase = same as 'angels' , sons of God , men

Lucifer is a direct name that was given to only one specific Cherub.

AND

Good Morning
 

David in NJ

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Hmm, John 8:44 says,

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who did Satan murder and how was he perfect if he was a murderer from the beggining and the Father of lies?
The "beginning" is KEY here to understanding.

What other KEY word did the LORD Jesus use to specify and define "beginning" here for us in this verse?

Peace
 

David in NJ

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Hmm, John 8:44 says,

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who did Satan murder and how was he perfect if he was a murderer from the beggining and the Father of lies?
The "beginning" is KEY here to understanding.

What other KEY word did the LORD Jesus use to specify and define "beginning" here for us in this verse?

Correction = there are THREE KEY words used by Jesus in this verse to define for us "beginning"

1st word - beginning

2nd word - murderer

3rd word - liar

By these THREE words Jesus specifically, accurately and truthfully defined for us "beginning" and it's exact location.

Peace
 
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David in NJ

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Hmm, John 8:44 says,

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who did Satan murder and how was he perfect if he was a murderer from the beggining and the Father of lies?
ok - Post #124 has been modified and completed for you.
 

No Pre-TB

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As I stated earlier, though you only disagreed with my first point and numerous theologians agree it is not a proper name who you would also have to counter. This is why I believe; which you don't have to. Opposing 1 thing is not enough when scripture sheds light on multiple people trying to ascend heaven, sit on God's throne, exalt themselves to the clouds etc. You're taking it extremely literally which Jesus counseled against because the Pharisees also did such things. Even the Jews today don't teach heylel as a proper name for the devil nor have they ever. Nor has any disciple of Jesus down to Paul.

Why I believe lucifer is Not Satan.

1. lucifer is not a personal name. It is a description. Example: Using lucifer in its proper English reading would look like:
"Day star, son of the morning"aka Morning star. Neither of which is a personal name.
2. The word heylel describes bringing in light. The same we are to let our lights shine.
3. Christ is the bright morning star. Revelation 22:16
4. We are promised to have the Morning star ourselves. Revelation 2:28
5. The context of Isaiah 14:3-22 is, " take up this proverb against the king of Babylon"
6. Satan is not described anywhere in Isaiah CH's 12, 13, 14, 15, 16...in context, by name or otherwise.
7. If you do not understand poetic language, who are: the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon. The story is poetic
8. When is Satan ever described to be persecuted in verse 6? Only men are persecuted.
9. He is called a man in verse 16, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
10. He said, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven. So did Capernaum in Matthew 11:23, So does the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and in Job 20:6, or Ezekiel 28:2 against the prince of Tyre.

"Lucifer” etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets (Tibull. i., 10, 62) for Venus, as an equivalent for the phôsphoros of the Greeks. Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer. While this has been the history of the Latin word, its Greek and English equivalents have risen to a higher place, and the “morning star” has become a name of the Christ (Revelation 22:16)."

"The word in Hebrew occurs as a noun nowhere else. In two other places Ezekiel 21:12; Zechariah 11:2, it is used as a verb in the imperative mood of Hiphil, and is translated 'howl' from the verb ילל yālal, "to howl" or "cry." Gesenius and Rosenmuller suppose that it should be so rendered here. So Noyes renders it, 'Howl, son of the morning!' But the common translation seems to be preferable. The Septuagint renders it, Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros, and the Vulgate, 'Lucifer, the morning star.' The Chaldee, 'How art thou fallen from high, who wert splendid among the sons of men.' There can be no doubt that the object in the eve of the prophet was the bright morning star; and his design was to compare this magnificent oriental monarch with that. The comparison of a monarch with the sun, or the other heavenly bodies, is common in the Scriptures."

"It is singular, however, that among the Semitic nations the morning star is not personified as a male (Heōsphoros or Phōsphoros), but as a female (Astarte, see at Isaiah 17:8), and that it is called Nâghâh, Ashtoreth, Zuhara, but never by a name derived from hâlal; whilst the moon is regarded as a male deity (Sin), and in Arabic hilâl signifies the new moon, which might be called ben- shacar (son of the dawn), from the fact that, from the time when it passes out of the invisibility of its first phase, it is seen at sunrise, and is as it were born out of the dawn.)"

EDIT: Also,
In the Latin vulgate, it is not capitalized.

"quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"
 

David in NJ

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As I stated earlier, though you only disagreed with my first point and numerous theologians agree it is not a proper name who you would also have to counter. This is why I believe; which you don't have to. Opposing 1 thing is not enough when scripture sheds light on multiple people trying to ascend heaven, sit on God's throne, exalt themselves to the clouds etc. You're taking it extremely literally which Jesus counseled against because the Pharisees also did such things. Even the Jews today don't teach heylel as a proper name for the devil nor have they ever. Nor has any disciple of Jesus down to Paul.

Why I believe lucifer is Not Satan.

1. lucifer is not a personal name. It is a description. Example: Using lucifer in its proper English reading would look like:
"Day star, son of the morning"aka Morning star. Neither of which is a personal name.
2. The word heylel describes bringing in light. The same we are to let our lights shine.
3. Christ is the bright morning star. Revelation 22:16
4. We are promised to have the Morning star ourselves. Revelation 2:28
5. The context of Isaiah 14:3-22 is, " take up this proverb against the king of Babylon"
6. Satan is not described anywhere in Isaiah CH's 12, 13, 14, 15, 16...in context, by name or otherwise.
7. If you do not understand poetic language, who are: the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon. The story is poetic
8. When is Satan ever described to be persecuted in verse 6? Only men are persecuted.
9. He is called a man in verse 16, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
10. He said, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven. So did Capernaum in Matthew 11:23, So does the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and in Job 20:6, or Ezekiel 28:2 against the prince of Tyre.

"Lucifer” etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets (Tibull. i., 10, 62) for Venus, as an equivalent for the phôsphoros of the Greeks. Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer. While this has been the history of the Latin word, its Greek and English equivalents have risen to a higher place, and the “morning star” has become a name of the Christ (Revelation 22:16)."

"The word in Hebrew occurs as a noun nowhere else. In two other places Ezekiel 21:12; Zechariah 11:2, it is used as a verb in the imperative mood of Hiphil, and is translated 'howl' from the verb ילל yālal, "to howl" or "cry." Gesenius and Rosenmuller suppose that it should be so rendered here. So Noyes renders it, 'Howl, son of the morning!' But the common translation seems to be preferable. The Septuagint renders it, Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros, and the Vulgate, 'Lucifer, the morning star.' The Chaldee, 'How art thou fallen from high, who wert splendid among the sons of men.' There can be no doubt that the object in the eve of the prophet was the bright morning star; and his design was to compare this magnificent oriental monarch with that. The comparison of a monarch with the sun, or the other heavenly bodies, is common in the Scriptures."

"It is singular, however, that among the Semitic nations the morning star is not personified as a male (Heōsphoros or Phōsphoros), but as a female (Astarte, see at Isaiah 17:8), and that it is called Nâghâh, Ashtoreth, Zuhara, but never by a name derived from hâlal; whilst the moon is regarded as a male deity (Sin), and in Arabic hilâl signifies the new moon, which might be called ben- shacar (son of the dawn), from the fact that, from the time when it passes out of the invisibility of its first phase, it is seen at sunrise, and is as it were born out of the dawn.)"

EDIT: Also,
In the Latin vulgate, it is not capitalized.

"quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"
Peace and do not take things personnel from me as i am not against you but i am specific to "It is written".

also, i get a good laugh when i hear "numerous theologians"......lol

Keep in mind the Scripture that teaches us that Lucipher/Satan is an 'angel' and a specific angel denoted as a Cherub.

Also keep in mind that the Scripture teaches us that Satan is the "Influencer/Enticer of sin/temptation upon man.

Here is your Truth = In both the OT and NT God specifies to us there is a spiritual movement behind/within man whether it be from Satan or from the Holy Spirit.

A PERFECT example is given to us by God THREE times in OT concerning Lucifer/Satan
#1.) Ezekiel ch28 = whereby God distinguishes between man/ruler of Tyre and spirit/Lucifer who was in/behind the ruler of Tyre.
#2 .) Isaiah chapter 14 God distinguishes between a man/king of Babylon and the spirit that was working behind/within the man = Lucifer
#3.) ??? = Do you know where the 3rd Proclamation from God is?
 
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David in NJ

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As I stated earlier, though you only disagreed with my first point and numerous theologians agree it is not a proper name who you would also have to counter. This is why I believe; which you don't have to. Opposing 1 thing is not enough when scripture sheds light on multiple people trying to ascend heaven, sit on God's throne, exalt themselves to the clouds etc. You're taking it extremely literally which Jesus counseled against because the Pharisees also did such things. Even the Jews today don't teach heylel as a proper name for the devil nor have they ever. Nor has any disciple of Jesus down to Paul.

Why I believe lucifer is Not Satan.

1. lucifer is not a personal name. It is a description. Example: Using lucifer in its proper English reading would look like:
"Day star, son of the morning"aka Morning star. Neither of which is a personal name.
2. The word heylel describes bringing in light. The same we are to let our lights shine.
3. Christ is the bright morning star. Revelation 22:16
4. We are promised to have the Morning star ourselves. Revelation 2:28
5. The context of Isaiah 14:3-22 is, " take up this proverb against the king of Babylon"
6. Satan is not described anywhere in Isaiah CH's 12, 13, 14, 15, 16...in context, by name or otherwise.
7. If you do not understand poetic language, who are: the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon. The story is poetic
8. When is Satan ever described to be persecuted in verse 6? Only men are persecuted.
9. He is called a man in verse 16, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
10. He said, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven. So did Capernaum in Matthew 11:23, So does the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and in Job 20:6, or Ezekiel 28:2 against the prince of Tyre.

"Lucifer” etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets (Tibull. i., 10, 62) for Venus, as an equivalent for the phôsphoros of the Greeks. Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer. While this has been the history of the Latin word, its Greek and English equivalents have risen to a higher place, and the “morning star” has become a name of the Christ (Revelation 22:16)."

"The word in Hebrew occurs as a noun nowhere else. In two other places Ezekiel 21:12; Zechariah 11:2, it is used as a verb in the imperative mood of Hiphil, and is translated 'howl' from the verb ילל yālal, "to howl" or "cry." Gesenius and Rosenmuller suppose that it should be so rendered here. So Noyes renders it, 'Howl, son of the morning!' But the common translation seems to be preferable. The Septuagint renders it, Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros, and the Vulgate, 'Lucifer, the morning star.' The Chaldee, 'How art thou fallen from high, who wert splendid among the sons of men.' There can be no doubt that the object in the eve of the prophet was the bright morning star; and his design was to compare this magnificent oriental monarch with that. The comparison of a monarch with the sun, or the other heavenly bodies, is common in the Scriptures."

"It is singular, however, that among the Semitic nations the morning star is not personified as a male (Heōsphoros or Phōsphoros), but as a female (Astarte, see at Isaiah 17:8), and that it is called Nâghâh, Ashtoreth, Zuhara, but never by a name derived from hâlal; whilst the moon is regarded as a male deity (Sin), and in Arabic hilâl signifies the new moon, which might be called ben- shacar (son of the dawn), from the fact that, from the time when it passes out of the invisibility of its first phase, it is seen at sunrise, and is as it were born out of the dawn.)"

EDIT: Also,
In the Latin vulgate, it is not capitalized.

"quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"
You said: "Lucifer” etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets"

What came first - the chicken or the egg???
 

David in NJ

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As I stated earlier, though you only disagreed with my first point and numerous theologians agree it is not a proper name who you would also have to counter. This is why I believe; which you don't have to. Opposing 1 thing is not enough when scripture sheds light on multiple people trying to ascend heaven, sit on God's throne, exalt themselves to the clouds etc. You're taking it extremely literally which Jesus counseled against because the Pharisees also did such things. Even the Jews today don't teach heylel as a proper name for the devil nor have they ever. Nor has any disciple of Jesus down to Paul.

Why I believe lucifer is Not Satan.

1. lucifer is not a personal name. It is a description. Example: Using lucifer in its proper English reading would look like:
"Day star, son of the morning"aka Morning star. Neither of which is a personal name.
2. The word heylel describes bringing in light. The same we are to let our lights shine.
3. Christ is the bright morning star. Revelation 22:16
4. We are promised to have the Morning star ourselves. Revelation 2:28
5. The context of Isaiah 14:3-22 is, " take up this proverb against the king of Babylon"
6. Satan is not described anywhere in Isaiah CH's 12, 13, 14, 15, 16...in context, by name or otherwise.
7. If you do not understand poetic language, who are: the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon. The story is poetic
8. When is Satan ever described to be persecuted in verse 6? Only men are persecuted.
9. He is called a man in verse 16, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
10. He said, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven. So did Capernaum in Matthew 11:23, So does the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and in Job 20:6, or Ezekiel 28:2 against the prince of Tyre.

"Lucifer” etymologically gives the same meaning, and is used by Latin poets (Tibull. i., 10, 62) for Venus, as an equivalent for the phôsphoros of the Greeks. Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer. While this has been the history of the Latin word, its Greek and English equivalents have risen to a higher place, and the “morning star” has become a name of the Christ (Revelation 22:16)."

"The word in Hebrew occurs as a noun nowhere else. In two other places Ezekiel 21:12; Zechariah 11:2, it is used as a verb in the imperative mood of Hiphil, and is translated 'howl' from the verb ילל yālal, "to howl" or "cry." Gesenius and Rosenmuller suppose that it should be so rendered here. So Noyes renders it, 'Howl, son of the morning!' But the common translation seems to be preferable. The Septuagint renders it, Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros, and the Vulgate, 'Lucifer, the morning star.' The Chaldee, 'How art thou fallen from high, who wert splendid among the sons of men.' There can be no doubt that the object in the eve of the prophet was the bright morning star; and his design was to compare this magnificent oriental monarch with that. The comparison of a monarch with the sun, or the other heavenly bodies, is common in the Scriptures."

"It is singular, however, that among the Semitic nations the morning star is not personified as a male (Heōsphoros or Phōsphoros), but as a female (Astarte, see at Isaiah 17:8), and that it is called Nâghâh, Ashtoreth, Zuhara, but never by a name derived from hâlal; whilst the moon is regarded as a male deity (Sin), and in Arabic hilâl signifies the new moon, which might be called ben- shacar (son of the dawn), from the fact that, from the time when it passes out of the invisibility of its first phase, it is seen at sunrise, and is as it were born out of the dawn.)"

EDIT: Also,
In the Latin vulgate, it is not capitalized.

"quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"

Elijah was surrounded by 'theologians'.
JESUS was surrounded by theologians.
Then the Apostles were surrounded by theologians.
Then Stephen was surrounded by theologians and one of them was Saul of Tarsus.

Then Luther was surrounded by theologians - who cut his tongue out.

Same as today = we who have the Holy Spirit are still outnumbered and surrounded by 'theologians'.

Moral of the Story - do not seek to be a theologian - BUT - Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.
 

No Pre-TB

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Can you write everything in 1 instead of multiple entries. it makes it much easier to read and reply to.

Another example. Since the word lucifer comes from Jermone's Latin Vulgate, let's see what else he put in there.

Job 11:17
Et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam; et cum te consumptum putaveris, orieris ut lucifer

English:
And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday; thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning.

2 Peter 1:19
Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

English:
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

-3 Times is lucifer found. In the 2 cases above, is lucifer a personal name? No.
-In the 2 examples above, is lucifer referred to the devil or Satan? No.
-In the case of 2 Peter 1:19, how does lucifer rise in your heart David?

Christ is the lucifer per Revelation, and so are we.
 

David in NJ

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Can you write everything in 1 instead of multiple entries. it makes it much easier to read and reply to.

Another example. Since the word lucifer comes from Jermone's Latin Vulgate, let's see what else he put in there.

Job 11:17
Et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam; et cum te consumptum putaveris, orieris ut lucifer

English:
And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday; thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning.

2 Peter 1:19
Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

English:
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

-3 Times is lucifer found. In the 2 cases above, is lucifer a personal name? No.
-In the 2 examples above, is lucifer referred to the devil or Satan? No.
-In the case of 2 Peter 1:19, how does lucifer rise in your heart David?

Christ is the lucifer per Revelation, and so are we.
You should use biblehub.com and look up Job 11:17 in Strong's and compare to Isaiah 14:12
 

Davy

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No. He just knows how to accurately desire them spiritually and ministerially.


No, there is no man that is actually a beast on earth. But there are men described as beasts. ALexander the Great was described as one. Paul talked about fighting them in Ephesus. Peter and Jude speak of them as brute beasts.
That's silly, saying the 'beast' symbol in God's Word ONLY applies to men. The 1st beast of Rev.13 is not about a man; it's about a KINGDOM BEAST, because the ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns represent a STRUCTURE over the earth. The 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward is about a 'man', the coming Antichrist, because he is to do miracles, and speak as the "dragon".

You must be going to one of those 'cult' churches that try to change God's Word to make it unrecognizable.

FOR BRETHREN THAT ARE INTERESTED:
Here's how to interpret the 'beast' concept as used in the Revelation 17 Chapter. It is talking about 2 different beasts, and swaps quickly, so one must pay attention in the Scripture. Only after having studied it at least a 2nd time will it begin to make sense...

Rev 17:1-16
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."


So that "great whore" sits upon "many waters". Those "waters" are defined further down at verse 15 to be "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". That establishes the idea that this "great whore" represents a ruler that is ruling over nations and peoples.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Then John is shown the 'woman' sitting upon a scarlet colored "beast" that has "seven heads" and "ten horns". Later in verse 12 we are told the "ten horns" represents "ten kings". This particular "beast" here thus means the 'structure' she rules over, a KINGDOM beast, and it is to have ten kings, over an area of "seven mountains" (verse 9).

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


The colors of scarlet and purple represent royalty. So the "great whore" represents a queen ruling, which she says about herself in Revelation 18:7. In the last verse of this Rev.17 chapter, it declares this 'woman' to be a "great city". Those who have done their homework in The Old Testament should then recognize this in connection with how God called a certain city a 'harlot' for falling away from Him, per Ezekiel 16. He speaks of JERUSALEM.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Lord Jesus rebuked JERUSALEM and her leadership offspring as being behind the killing of God's prophets He sent (Matthew 23).

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

This is where one needs to sharpen up and think what is being said...

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

That beast above is about Satan himself, not his kingdom beast, the "dragon" of Rev.13. He will be the coming Antichrist, and a king. He "was", because in the old world he rebelled against God in trying to set himself up in place of GOD, and thus fell. So he "is not", meaning he failed in that role in trying to be The KING. But he "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" to try and play The KING again at the end of this world, and then he will "go into perdition" into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Those who's names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will "wonder" at him when they behold him upon this earth at the end.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Now it switches to the subject of the beast kingdom. The "seven heads" represent "seven mountains" of the beast kingdom, the 1st beast of Rev.13. That is an explanation... of the symbol, not another... symbol on top of the "seven heads". Thus the "seven mountains" MUST be understood literally! And seven mountains literally means what? It means 7 geographic locations upon this earth. And per Rev.13, one of those 7 mountains suffered a 'deadly wound' that will be healed by the coming false one.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Now it switches back to the idea of the beast king, the Antichrist that is to come at the end. There are 7 beast kings, 5 of them were past history, and the 6th beast king was in Apostle John's day (Roman emperor Domitian). The 7th beast king is yet to come, meaning at the 'end' as king over the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom. And remember, if you have a king, then you must also have a 'kingdom'. So the 'beast' idea in Revelation follows the beast idea in the Book of Daniel which covers BOTH, the idea of a beast kingdom, and beast kings.

As a matter of fact, Daniel 4, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon himself wrote, covers the idea of his rebellion in claiming to be God, and then with God punishing him and making him go live with the literal beasts of the earth, where he thought he actually was an animal, which is about a certain disease that causes that state. God brought him out of it finally, and then ole' Neb praised God as The GOD, and only our Heavenly Father in Heaven as The True GOD.

And it's interesting about Saddam Hussein who tried to rebuild the geographic city of Babylon in Iraq, that at his latter stage when captured, he was found living in a hole in the ground like a wild 'beast'.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

There's that beast king idea of verse 8 being described again, i.e., Satan as the coming Antichrist for the end of this world. Satan is of the previous seven beast kings. He was behind the working of the previous 6 beast kings of history, but Satan himself will be the 7th beast king for the coming "great tribulation" when the "one world government" is finalized at the end of this world. And it is Satan as that beast king that will eventually go into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20 and perish.

Again, HOW... do we know that beast there that ascends out the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, is about Satan? First off, who is the angel of the bottomless pit that ascends out of it? It's Satan, for Rev.9 reveals he is the 'king' over that bottomless pit. He goes into perdition because it means Satan has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". NO flesh born man has been judged and sentenced to perish yet. Only Satan and his angels have so far.

(Continued...)
 

Davy

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(Continued...)

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


The "ten horns" of the beast KINGDOM we are finally told represent 10 kings, literally. And notice these ten kings do not come to power until the beast (king, the Antichrist) comes to power, and they will rule with the beast king for "one hour". That "one hour" is a symbol for the time of the "great tribulation" at the end of this world. In Lord Jesus' parables, He sometimes used that "one hour" to represent the end of this world, and especially with "the hour of temptation", which is what Satan is coming to do on earth at the end, to TEST those who will wonder at him who's names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19 shows Jesus' future coming to make war upon those kings and mighty men upon this earth.

15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

That is about the beast KINGDOM structure the great whore sits over in rule.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


The ten kings will hate the "great whore" that sits over the beast KINGDOM. So that does not mean a 'religion' like the Roman Church or a pope. The next verse makes this very obvious...

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV


The Babylon "great whore" is a "GREAT CITY". The ten kings will hate this particular "great city" that represents the "great whore" at the start of this Rev.17 chapter. So what city is it???...

Rev 11:7-8

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

KJV

There it is, the "great city" of Rev.17 is... JERUSALEM at the end of this world, fallen into an IDOL worship state with the "abomination of desolation" IDOL setup in a rebuilt stone temple there.

Thus also, JERUSALEM is what those ten kings will hate because of their being part of Satan's beast kingdom strucuture USING it as his headquarters over ALL NATIONS upon this earth when he comes as the Antichrist. This is also why that harlot says she 'sits as a queen, and is no widow' per Rev.18:7, because it means she is MARRIED to the coming beast king, Satan! That because Satan tries to claim what belongs to GOD. Per Ezekiel 16, God married Jerusalem, and He is very jealous for her. Satan wants Jerusalem because he wants to be The GOD, and he is coming to try to do that one more time, and GOD is allowing it as a TEST upon the rebellious. THIS... is what Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" at the end is going to be about.
 

robert derrick

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That's silly, saying the 'beast' symbol in God's Word ONLY applies to men. The 1st beast of Rev.13 is not about a man; it's about a KINGDOM BEAST,
I've given the NT doctrine teaching it. Since you want to continue in your own interpretation of prophecy, then we can go on and provide different interpretations accordingly.

because the ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns represent a STRUCTURE over the earth.
It represents a spiritual and ministerial structure of the last great false apostle and antichrist: The beast is the man, and the churches are his structured organization.

The heads of his organization under his personal rule, have a seat at his general board of world-wide churches.

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.


He pushes with horns to proselytize to his own christian/jewish religion:

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.


Their crowns are the glorious success in the ministry of Christ, that is made into the ministry of man.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths. For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.


And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.

The only structure God cares about on earth, is the churches of God, and whether they are ministered the good milk of the word, or are corrupted by the dominating ministry of man. All other gvts, buildings, and structures on earth are just kindling for the fire in the end.

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

God has no interest in such works on earth, whether they be large or small, and He certainly doesn't bother to prophecy about them. The souls of men is His treasure, And He prophesies warnings against men as beasts in their own pulpit thrones, that are the merchandizers and destroyers thereof.

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more.... and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

This is how all NT prophecy of Scripture is interpreted: by first knowing what the subject matter is. In the OT gvts of men were a matter of God on earth, but after He is come in the flesh and resurrected from the dead, the only matter to God on earth is the souls of all men and women, and whether they are ministered the gospel of truth, or other gospels of men.

Nations, gvts, buildings, temples, etc... mean nothing to God, and has nothing to do with His prophecies anymore.

NT teaching now says that all such prophetic beasts are men dominating the faith of God's people, rather than being helpers of their joy in Christ.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy, for by faith ye stand.

If someone wants to fly over NT doctrine, to try and interpret NT prophecy solely from OT prophecy, then so be it. They can argue round and round it forever, and probably have much fun, but I prefer to cut to the chase, and interpret all NT prophecy of Scripture by NT doctrine of the apostles.

Those beasts be brutish men in pulpits dominating and destroying the faith and work of Christ in the souls of believers. Saul of Tarsus did so, until he became the apostle Paul. His whole life was spent preaching the true doctrine of Christ, while doing battle with the antichrist heretics, that make war with the saints doctrinally first, and then by physical persecution. They seek to build their own churches of God for their own profit, power, and glory.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

And they cannot abide any defending the gospel according tot he Scriptures, and exposing their false rule and headship. There were Jews that did so in their synagogues of Satan, and there are Christians that do so in their pulpits of the devil. Their crowning achievements are proselytizing believers to their own special little heresies.

The last great false apostle, christ, and beast will combine them all into one unlovable little fuzzball of destruction world-wide, where the beast marks his own churches, with his own cross of salvation, justification, and worship as Christ come again in the flesh.
 

robert derrick

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The 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward is about a 'man', the coming Antichrist, because he is to do miracles, and speak as the "dragon".
True. He's another antichrist following the first. A protégé that takes it to the next level of being thoroughly given to Satan with no more pretence of ministing for Jesus Christ.

In time the mask always comes off, and that man of sin shows himself for what he really is: Another wanna be christ and head of the churches.

You must be going to one of those 'cult' churches that try to change God's Word to make it unrecognizable.
So, you cave, and move on to spitballs. It's rare to find a mature person to honestly dispute with.

Their normal manner is: declare their teachings. Ignore challenges. Declare their same teachings again. Ignore challenges again and begin throwing spitballs.

One sure sign of false teachers: they hate criticism. Paul didn't mind the Bereans checking the Scriptures, to see if the gospel he preached was of God.

So that "great whore" sits upon "many waters". Those "waters" are defined further down at verse 15 to be "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". That establishes the idea that this "great whore" represents a ruler that is ruling over nations and peoples.
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

First a man a kingdom, and now a city a man.

If we don't let Scripture interpret prophecy of Scripture, then we make ourselves false prophets of our own minds.

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

Lord Jesus rebuked JERUSALEM and her leadership offspring as being behind the killing of God's prophets He sent (Matthew 23).
Which is that great city Babylon the great Whore and Mother of harlot ministries of heresy:

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

That's why she's spiritually Sodom and Egypt, while being known as the capitol city of heresies.

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

This is where one needs to sharpen up and think what is being said...
As long as what's being said, is only about what's been written.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

That beast above is about Satan himself,
The problem is Satan has not yet been cast into the pit of hell, until after Christ's Millennium reign.

As I said, sticking to what is written is the only sure way not to teach false prophecy.
not his kingdom beast, the "dragon" of Rev.13. He will be the coming Antichrist, and a king. He "was", because in the old world he rebelled against God in trying to set himself up in place of GOD, and thus fell.
Lucifer was the first perfectly created being to rebel against God in his heart, and so was no more God's perfectly made creature, and yet is going about seducing angels and men to believe he is a perfect being himself.

So with men that sin and repent not, and go on seeking to establish themselves as righteous apostles of Christ.

He that was of God, and is not of God, and yet is ministering as an apostle of God.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


So he "is not", meaning he failed in that role in trying to be The KING. But he "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit"
At the end of a thousand years, where the first false apostolic beast and prophet already are.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Once again children. What's the first rule of interpretation of prophecy of Scripture? Let Scripture do the interpreting, which is how God makes it easy for us to teach.

Now it switches to the subject of the beast kingdom. The "seven heads" represent "seven mountains" of the beast kingdom, the 1st beast of Rev.13. That is an explanation... of the symbol, not another... symbol on top of the "seven heads". Thus the "seven mountains" MUST be understood literally!
Unless Scripture elsewhere provides a different interpretation for ministry:

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


The whoring great city of false prophets and apostles and christs, is the mountain of false ministry of man.

Once again class: if we persist in turning a blind eye to NT teaching of apostles of Christ, then we disavow ourselves of the interpretations of NT prophecy, that they have already provided for us to teach.



Now it switches back to the idea of the beast king, the Antichrist that is to come at the end. There are 7 beast kings, 5 of them were past history, and the 6th beast king was in Apostle John's day (Roman emperor Domitian).
This is the same pseudo-history lessons, of those that insist the great city Jerusalem is called Babylon the Great, in order not to 'offend' Romans. As if they needed any excuse to persecute Christians. And as if God and His prophets are afraid of offending anyone feelings, and mentioning them by name. Such as Nineveh, Egypt, Babylon, Edon, etc...

I vote for Nero. No wait, on second thought Commodus. Was Genghis an Emperor?


As a matter of fact, Daniel 4, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon himself wrote,

A good example of a man of pride, almost literally becoming a beast with a man's hardened heart.

And it's interesting about Saddam Hussein who tried to rebuild the geographic city of Babylon in Iraq, that at his latter stage when captured, he was found living in a hole in the ground like a wild 'beast'.

True again. That was indeed a beast with man's stony heart. Just not an antichrist false apostle of Christ.
Again, HOW... do we know that beast there that ascends out the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, is about Satan? First off, who is the angel of the bottomless pit that ascends out of it?
In all of this stuff, this is the only real effort to let Scripture interpret prophecy of Scripture.

The problem is the king of the bottomless can't be Satan in Rev 9, since he is cast into that hell for the first time, to join his chained angels, until the second coming of Christ, which is when He does cast the first and next beast alive into the LOF.

In Isaiah 14, Lucifer was cast down to the ground when He first sinned, but is only prophesied to be cast into the pit of hell, which is fulfilled in Rev 20 at Christ's return.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Scripture plainly gives the proper names for Lucifer after his rebellion. Apollyon Abaddon is listed.

Shall I say it again? Let Scripture do what? "Interpret prophecy of Scripture!" Yes, you got it now kids! Good job.

It's Satan, for Rev.9 reveals he is the 'king' over that bottomless pit.
Apollyon Abaddon is.

I believe his first name may have been Korah, before he was the first to fall alive into the pit of hell, and may be raised again by Christ to be the first prophet and last great false apostle ever known in Scripture. Not having learned a lesson to the only possible purgatory time ever shown in earth, he may then be the first man cast alive into the LOF.
He goes into perdition because it means Satan has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". NO flesh born man has been judged and sentenced to perish yet.
Not into the LOF yet.

Until the first beast and false prophet are, a thousand years before Satan is. They will be the first men cast into the LOF, before Lucifer, the Devil and dragon, Satan, that old Serpent is.
 
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