Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

[Hillsage]

I know for a fact that @Hillsage does NOT deny the deity of Christ.
Nor any of the rest of your pet requirements.
But I guess you don't keep track of your abusive comments.

/

Don't deny it at all. I just don't think it was His body that made Him deity, I believe it was His spirit that made him a "son of God" and his body made Him a "son of man" and His soul made him a "son of David".

 

[Hillsage]

Perhaps you could show me a verse that clearly says Christ Jesus IS God?

Might also show us a verse that says 'BELIEVING HE WAS GOD', is even a required belief for salvation. I know what most of the churches say. But where's 'the meat' of scripture saying so?

 

[Logikos]

My brother, my intent was simply to point out that, while we see and hear what others say and do, we should be gentle in our approach.

That depends on the situation.

Now Yeshua (Jesus) did speak harshly to the Pharisees, I believe that He had greater authority to do so.

In which case it wouldn't be relevant, right?

I respond "no" to the question of whether or not i am judging the hearts of those to whom I witness.

Well, of course you are. Would you throw a life preserver to some random person standing inside a building or would you look for a guy who was drowning?

You can hardly interact with people at all in regards to anything concerning right and wrong or other spiritual matters without making such judgments. If I was the nicest guy you'd ever come across, you'd feel no need to say a word to me. Why? Because you'd make a judgment that told you there was no such need.

I do so either because they open the door to do so, or they are family and I know that they reject salvation through Yeshua (Jesus).

In other words, because they give you reason to make the judgment that they need to hear the gospel!

If my response to you caused you to think I was "on the attack," please forgive me.

I'm not worried about that. I'm a big boy and have pretty thick skin.
All I'm doing now is trying my best to communicate to you that you cannot keep from judging people. You CANNOT! No one can, it isn't possible. We are not told by anyone ever to not judge others. If you think otherwise, you are flatly wrong. We are told not to judge hypocritically but rather with righteous judgment.

Perhaps you could show me a verse that clearly says Christ Jesus IS God?

You don't believe that Jesus is God?!!!! What is going on with this website?! You people are reproducing like rabbits around here!

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.​

So, John the Apostle records John the Baptist, who was born six months before Jesus was, saying that "He (Jesus Christ) was before me." immediately after having stated bluntly that God became flesh! So inside of 16 verses we have two first person witness testimonies both of which God placed into scripture. How much clearer do you need it to be? There's more...

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I (Jesus) say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

​

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

​

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​

That isn't all the biblical material but it's enough. If the bible does not teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything at all. It is THE core doctrine of the Christian faith, that along with the fact that He died and rose from the dead. It is Christianity itself.

 

[Logikos]

Might also show us a verse that says 'BELIEVING HE WAS GOD', is even a required belief for salvation. I know what most of the churches say. But where's 'the meat' of scripture saying so?

I quoted that verse already. Jesus Himself said it.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[Logikos]

Don't deny it at all. I just don't think it was His body that made Him deity, I believe it was His spirit that made him a "son of God" and his body made Him a "son of man" and His soul made him a "son of David".

Note his wording....

"a "son of God""


Not, "the Son of God" but "a "son of God", with son spelled with a lower case "s" and in quotes!

 

[Spyder]

That depends on the situation.


In which case it wouldn't be relevant, right?


Well, of course you are. Would you throw a life preserver to some random person standing inside a building or would you look for a guy who was drowning?

You can hardly interact with people at all in regards to anything concerning right and wrong or other spiritual matters without making such judgments. If I was the nicest guy you'd ever come across, you'd feel no need to say a word to me. Why? Because you'd make a judgment that told you there was no such need.


In other words, because they give you reason to make the judgment that they need to hear the gospel!


I'm not worried about that. I'm a big boy and have pretty thick skin.
All I'm doing now is trying my best to communicate to you that you cannot keep from judging people. You CANNOT! No one can, it isn't possible. We are not told by anyone ever to not judge others. If you think otherwise, you are flatly wrong. We are told not to judge hypocritically but rather with righteous judgment.


You don't believe that Jesus is God?!!!! What is going on with this website?! You people are reproducing like rabbits around here!

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.​

So, John the Apostle records John the Baptist, who was born six months before Jesus was, saying that "He (Jesus Christ) was before me." immediately after having stated bluntly that God became flesh! So inside of 16 verses we have two first person witness testimonies both of which God placed into scripture. How much clearer do you need it to be? There's more...

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I (Jesus) say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

​

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

​

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​

That isn't all the biblical material but it's enough. If the bible does not teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything at all. It is THE core doctrine of the Christian faith, that along with the fact that He died and rose from the dead. It is Christianity itself.

Perhaps I can simplify this.

First, there is a huge difference between "evaluate" and "judge." What seems to be is what humans do. Judge is what God does. If I evaluate that a person does not believe what I believe, I can only claim that it appears that way to me. I CANNOT determine what that person's heart contains. I don't have that authority over someone's beliefs. I may know that my beliefs are different, but then again, I am subject to be wrong. My beliefs come in two formats: (1) those things on solid granite and (2) those things on sticky note requiring more investigation. Nobody should assume to know what I believe before talking to me about them. That would be a false judgement.

I have found that people who have been told that something is true by people they trust, but have not examined the entire scriptures for themselves, claim to "believe." However, when shown the scriptures that they have not examined, it goes normally one of three ways:

1. They ignore the rest of scripture and keep their man-made doctrines. They simply keep on keeping on.
2. They get angry that my beliefs can be inferred by them to be an insult to their knowledge and end up insulting me without any clarification. (often this is the case, from my experience.)
3. They can acknowledge that they have actually NOT searched to determine truth, ask questions, and then own their beliefs based on scripture rather than the doctrines of man.

The result is between that person and God to judge. I, like everyone else, am accountable to God for my beliefs.

 

[Spyder]

I quoted that verse already. Jesus Himself said it.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

I think reading more of this chapter in John 8 is necessary for understanding. Taking one verse and establishing truth leads to mistakes.

The He in that verse refers back to:

Jn 8:18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.

It is not a claim to be God but rather sent by God, i.e. the Messiah.

 

[Hillsage]

I quoted that verse already. Jesus Himself said it.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

In that verse, HE is not saying "I AM GOD", nor is He saying "YOU MUST BELIEVE I AM GOD, or you can't be saved."

JOH 8:26 I have much to say about you and much to judge; but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27 They did not understand that he spoke to them of the Father.

Sounds like a SON speaking about his FATHER, to me. Sounds like me when I hear a word for someone from my heavenly FATHER. And I hear it, not with the ears on my head, but from the ears of the holy spirit of Christ in me, just like Jesus.

 

[Hillsage]

post 163
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, a...

NOTE; "Word WAS God" NOT 'Word IS God'.
NOTE; "Word BECAME flesh" NOT 'Word REMAINED flesh'.

Your thehology might as well be saying 'the WORM was God' and 'the WORM' became BUTTERFLY. Therefore 'the BUTTERFLY is a WORM.
That's what 'my eyes' are really 'seeing' you believing.

Post 165 Note his wording....

"a "son of God""

Not, "the Son of God" but "a "son of God", with son spelled with a lower case "s" and in quotes!

Put that empty rabbit hole thinking aside. Just look at your above statement, as it was translated/interpreted by 'them' and then 'by me'. And then realize that no 'NT scripture version' anywhere says "GOD THE SON". SIMPLY a big difference.

Forget the man added capitalization/"quote" of words which were not 'punctuated so' in the Greek. There is LITERAL 'word for word' Greek TRANSLATION and then there is 'thought for thought' and 'paraphrase' Greek INTERPRETATION. The problem there is, our first BIBLE 'versions' came about, long after the church of ROME killed the fivefold ministy along with the 'baptsim FROM the Holy Spirit of God' and then screwed Greek into Latin only to then be rescrewed back into Greek. This happens with 'theological mindsets' which were based upon prior PRETEXT indoctrination. And FundaMENTAL translators then INTERPRETED new versions based upon their personal spiritual experiences of those same INTERPRETERS who wrote before them.

Capitalization can, and has been, falsely written by/into man's bible versions. That fault has also created a few false doctrines in the church.

0 times in the NT do you find 'god the son'
46 times in the NT you find 'son of god'. And the oldest Greek manuscripts were written in ALL UPPERCASE (SON OF GOD) and had no PUNCTUATION.

Hopefully this 'longer' explanation refutes your 'brief' misunderstandings above.

The Transmission of the Greek New Testament – Long Island Church of Christ

www.licoc.org

 

[Logikos]

Perhaps I can simplify this.

First, there is a huge difference between "evaluate" and "judge." What seems to be is what humans do. Judge is what God does.

Nonsense.

Even if there were some context where such a thing might be the case, it wouldn't help you because Jesus Christ Himself commanded us to judge and Paul states as plain as day that we ought to be doing a lot of judging amongst the brethren because we're going to be judging the angels!

If I evaluate that a person does not believe what I believe, I can only claim that it appears that way to me. I CANNOT determine what that person's heart contains.

Contradict yourself much?

Just what is it that you think a "person's heart" is anyway?

I don't have that authority over someone's beliefs.

It is not necessary for you too. No one is suggesting that our judgments would usurp God's final judgment nor is anyone suggesting that we should judge flippantly. On the contrary, Jesus commands that we judge with righteous judgment. Not only that but He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive or retain sins! How do you suppose they would do such a thing without judging people?

I may know that my beliefs are different, but then again, I am subject to be wrong. My beliefs come in two formats: (1) those things on solid granite and (2) those things on sticky note requiring more investigation. Nobody should assume to know what I believe before talking to me about them. That would be a false judgement.

No one has suggested otherwise.

I have found that people who have been told that something is true by people they trust, but have not examined the entire scriptures for themselves, claim to "believe." However, when shown the scriptures that they have not examined, it goes normally one of three ways:

1. They ignore the rest of scripture and keep their man-made doctrines. They simply keep on keeping on.
2. They get angry that my beliefs can be inferred by them to be an insult to their knowledge and end up insulting me without any clarification. (often this is the case, from my experience.)
3. They can acknowledge that they have actually NOT searched to determine truth, ask questions, and then own their beliefs based on scripture rather than the doctrines of man.

Again, no one has suggested otherwise!

The result is between that person and God to judge. I, like everyone else, am accountable to God for my beliefs.

No, it isn't Spyder! I mean, ultimately it is, sure but God holds YOU responsible for the truths you fail to communicate if given the opportunity to do so. It is YOUR responsibility to stand up for the truth and to be a faithful witness and a workman that need no be ashamed. We are not just a bunch of puppets on strings here and this is not some sort of dress rehearsal. Life is real and this is the only life you get and if people die believing that God is unjust or if they put their faith in the wrong Jesus then those people are going to spend eternity in Hell and I'd rather hurt their feelings telling them the truth than to be sitting there on judgment day wondering whether their eternity might have turned out differently had I had the courage to offend someone with the truth. The road to Hell is slickened by the black ice of niceness.

 

[Logikos]

I think reading more of this chapter in John 8 is necessary for understanding. Taking one verse and establishing truth leads to mistakes.

The He in that verse refers back to:

Jn 8:18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.

It is not a claim to be God but rather sent by God, i.e. the Messiah.

There is no contextual error. Jesus was claiming to be God and did so repeatedly, especially in the book of John, not to mention the book of Revelation. No one ever wanted to stone anyone for making the claim that they were sent by God. That isn't what Jesus was claiming - period.

If the bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything at all. It teaches the deity of Christ more clearly than it teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

 

[Logikos]

In that verse, HE is not saying "I AM GOD",

Yes, He is.

 

[Logikos]

NOTE; "Word WAS God" NOT 'Word IS God'.
NOTE; "Word BECAME flesh" NOT 'Word REMAINED flesh'.

Your thehology might as well be saying 'the WORM was God' and 'the WORM' became BUTTERFLY. Therefore 'the BUTTERFLY is a WORM.
That's what 'my eyes' are really 'seeing' you believing.


Put that empty rabbit hole thinking aside. Just look at your above statement, as it was translated/interpreted by 'them' and then 'by me'. And then realize that no 'NT scripture version' anywhere says "GOD THE SON". SIMPLY a big difference.

Forget the man added capitalization/"quote" of words which were not 'punctuated so' in the Greek. There is LITERAL 'word for word' Greek TRANSLATION and then there is 'thought for thought' and 'paraphrase' Greek INTERPRETATION. The problem there is, our first BIBLE 'versions' came about, long after the church of ROME killed the fivefold ministy along with the 'baptsim FROM the Holy Spirit of God' and then screwed Greek into Latin only to then be rescrewed back into Greek. This happens with 'theological mindsets' which were based upon prior PRETEXT indoctrination. And FundaMENTAL translators then INTERPRETED new versions based upon their personal spiritual experiences of those same INTERPRETERS who wrote before them.

Capitalization can, and has been, falsely written by/into man's bible versions. That fault has also created a few false doctrines in the church.

0 times in the NT do you find 'god the son'
46 times in the NT you find 'son of god'. And the oldest Greek manuscripts were written in ALL UPPERCASE (SON OF GOD) and had no PUNCTUATION.

Hopefully this 'longer' explanation refutes your 'brief' misunderstandings above.

The Transmission of the Greek New Testament – Long Island Church of Christ

www.licoc.org

You'll go to Hell believe this crap!

Buh bye!

 

[Hillsage]

You'll go to Hell believe this crap!

Buh bye!

Forrest Gump had a better 'saying' for what you just 'did'.

MAT 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Probably should have just "EVALUATED" me. Oh, wait, you can't do that....then you'd agree with SPYDER.

 

[Spyder]

There is no contextual error. Jesus was claiming to be God and did so repeatedly, especially in the book of John, not to mention the book of Revelation. No one ever wanted to stone anyone for making the claim that they were sent by God. That isn't what Jesus was claiming - period.

If the bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything at all. It teaches the deity of Christ more clearly than it teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

Well, I see your impassioned position on this topic. Since I see that, I also know that the type of bible examination required to understand my position is not likely to happen. I am responsible for my own studies and I am trusting God to give me truth. In the end, I will own my beliefs. We all will. May God bless you as you go on your own path.

 

[St. SteVen]

Forrest Gump had a better 'saying' for what you just 'did'.

What's the quote?
"Life is like a box of chocolates..." ???

/

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Commanded to love God more than we love ourselves?

/

 

[Hillsage]

What's the quote?
"Life is like a box of chocolates..." ???

/

Didn't really want to post it....trying to be more "gentle" than I was being treated. But, stupid is as stupid does.

 

[St. SteVen]

Didn't really want to post it....trying to be more "gentle" than I was being treated. But, stupid is as stupid does.

I have to say...
You are doing a GREAT job! Keep up the good work. =o)



/

 

[Carl Emerson]

Back to the Logos - I believe that folks apply human thinking to the ways of God especially when it comes to chronology.

Before Abraham was I AM

By the way I love the response to 'I AM'

Yeshua 'Yes you are..'. sorry I digress

So when God collides with the created order He doesn't become subject to time.

Take the Cross - a timeless event anchored in History yet spanning all of time.

OT saints washed in His Blood like you or I...

Jesus offers His body and blood to the disciples to eat before He is sacrificed - surely they partake of His resurrected body and blood which has never not existed. Was it not His Blood that saved the first born at passover?
Was not a sacrificed lamb to be eaten after being offered and not before?

The Logos never was not.

The Word is the eternal manifestation of the Fathers heart realised by the Power of the Spirit.

Jesus was given the Name of the Father (John 17) because they are One.

And so I have learned to kneel before the Cross and unload because the Cross is occurring in every moment of time.

Let God be timeless.

Let Jesus the Logos be timeless.

Jesus is beyond the gramatical rules we apply in language.

All Glory to Him... way beyond what we could ask or think.