Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it.
Is The Osas Doctrine Satanic?
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QUOTE (watchman @ May 6 2009, 10:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73334
Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it.
Yes it is most certainly satanic. Look at George W. Bush, the 'born again'. He basically embodies all that is evil.
Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it.
Yes it is most certainly satanic. Look at George W. Bush, the 'born again'. He basically embodies all that is evil.
Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what the Osas Doctrine is. I'm assuming "Once Saved, Always Saved," or "Eternal Security." I used to believe in Eternal Security, but the deeper I get into my walk, the more this seems false. Take for example the famous verse from Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV):4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.I talked to my pastor about this and he doesn't believe in the doctrine of eternal security either. However, aside from apostasy - which as I understand it is completely turning from or rejecting God - we can't lose our salvation. Also, I'm not sure about this, but I believe In Joshua it talks about how our deeds as righteousness are like filthy garments to God. When we accept Jesus we take His righteousness as a gift. Some might take this and have an attitude like "So I can sin all I want? Is that right?" I personally sin all I want - which is not very much. I don't want to sin because I know that it's wrong, and I want Jesus to dwell in me and lift me up so that others might come to Him, etc. I ripped this off of a sermon I watched last night on the Church Channel.-Mike
"Yes it is most certainly satanic. Look at George W. Bush, the 'born again'. He basically embodies all that is evil."-- What a brutally ignorant thing to say.
QUOTE (watchman @ May 8 2009, 07:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73390
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
There are plenty around, they just don't say anything when there is others that out number them. But we are to love all who profess the Name of Jesus as I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. So we need to be careful and I say this to remind myself.Doesn't matter what their doctrine is, if they confess Jesus Christ as The Son of God, we better love them as a brother or sister and let God sort it out. VickieQUOTE (GwH @ May 7 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73357
Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what the Osas Doctrine is. I'm assuming "Once Saved, Always Saved," or "Eternal Security." I talked to my pastor about this and he doesn't believe in the doctrine of eternal security either. However, aside from apostasy - which as I understand it is completely turning from or rejecting God - we can't lose our salvation. Also, I'm not sure about this, but I believe In Joshua it talks about how our deeds as righteousness are like filthy garments to God.
Jeremiah 32:19 (last part) you reward everyone according to his CONDUCT and as his DEEDS deserve.QUOTE
When we accept Jesus we take His righteousness as a gift. Some might take this and have an attitude like "So I can sin all I want? Is that right?" I personally sin all I want - which is not very much. I don't want to sin because I know that it's wrong, and I want Jesus to dwell in me and lift me up so that others might come to Him, etc.
We are held accountable for whether we are gathering for the Son of God, or if we are destroying and scattering for the Christ. We will be held accountable for how our conduct is towards, others, "love thy neighbor as they self." Our good deeds performed through faith is how we show love to God. That he rules us by the way we live our lives for him. Our King rules and comes soon! allelujah! Vickie
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
There are plenty around, they just don't say anything when there is others that out number them. But we are to love all who profess the Name of Jesus as I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. So we need to be careful and I say this to remind myself.Doesn't matter what their doctrine is, if they confess Jesus Christ as The Son of God, we better love them as a brother or sister and let God sort it out. VickieQUOTE (GwH @ May 7 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73357
Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what the Osas Doctrine is. I'm assuming "Once Saved, Always Saved," or "Eternal Security." I talked to my pastor about this and he doesn't believe in the doctrine of eternal security either. However, aside from apostasy - which as I understand it is completely turning from or rejecting God - we can't lose our salvation. Also, I'm not sure about this, but I believe In Joshua it talks about how our deeds as righteousness are like filthy garments to God.
Jeremiah 32:19 (last part) you reward everyone according to his CONDUCT and as his DEEDS deserve.QUOTE
When we accept Jesus we take His righteousness as a gift. Some might take this and have an attitude like "So I can sin all I want? Is that right?" I personally sin all I want - which is not very much. I don't want to sin because I know that it's wrong, and I want Jesus to dwell in me and lift me up so that others might come to Him, etc.
We are held accountable for whether we are gathering for the Son of God, or if we are destroying and scattering for the Christ. We will be held accountable for how our conduct is towards, others, "love thy neighbor as they self." Our good deeds performed through faith is how we show love to God. That he rules us by the way we live our lives for him. Our King rules and comes soon! allelujah! Vickie
QUOTE (Vickie @ May 8 2009, 10:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73392
There are plenty around, they just don't say anything when there is others that out number them. But we are to love all who profess the Name of Jesus as I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. So we need to be careful and I say this to remind myself.Doesn't matter what their doctrine is, if they confess Jesus Christ as The Son of God, we better love them as a brother or sister and let God sort it out.
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
There are plenty around, they just don't say anything when there is others that out number them. But we are to love all who profess the Name of Jesus as I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. So we need to be careful and I say this to remind myself.Doesn't matter what their doctrine is, if they confess Jesus Christ as The Son of God, we better love them as a brother or sister and let God sort it out.
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (watchman @ May 8 2009, 11:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73393
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Is Once Saved, Always Saved a true teaching?Just thinking out loud here... Maybe in reality Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is a true teaching because where there is faith God's grace continues to flow, and all things work together for good for those who are the called according to His purpose.My thinking is that in concept, Salvation Gained And Lost (SGAL) is Salvation Never Received (SNR). This is because God foreknows the faithful whom He predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those found to be unfaithful in the final outcome were, in reality, Never Really Saved (NRS) and have an unpleasant destiny awaiting them. I think it's better to continue in faith...
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Is Once Saved, Always Saved a true teaching?Just thinking out loud here... Maybe in reality Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is a true teaching because where there is faith God's grace continues to flow, and all things work together for good for those who are the called according to His purpose.My thinking is that in concept, Salvation Gained And Lost (SGAL) is Salvation Never Received (SNR). This is because God foreknows the faithful whom He predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those found to be unfaithful in the final outcome were, in reality, Never Really Saved (NRS) and have an unpleasant destiny awaiting them. I think it's better to continue in faith...
QUOTE (Stumpmaster @ May 9 2009, 02:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73395
Is Once Saved, Always Saved a true teaching?Just thinking out loud here... Maybe in reality Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is a true teaching because where there is faith God's grace continues to flow, and all things work together for good for those who are the called according to His purpose.My thinking is that in concept, Salvation Gained And Lost (SGAL) is Salvation Never Received (SNR). This is because God foreknows the faithful whom He predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those found to be unfaithful in the final outcome were, in reality, Never Really Saved (NRS) and have an unpleasant destiny awaiting them. I think it's better to continue in faith...
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
Is Once Saved, Always Saved a true teaching?Just thinking out loud here... Maybe in reality Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is a true teaching because where there is faith God's grace continues to flow, and all things work together for good for those who are the called according to His purpose.My thinking is that in concept, Salvation Gained And Lost (SGAL) is Salvation Never Received (SNR). This is because God foreknows the faithful whom He predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those found to be unfaithful in the final outcome were, in reality, Never Really Saved (NRS) and have an unpleasant destiny awaiting them. I think it's better to continue in faith...
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (watchman @ May 9 2009, 02:53 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73402
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
That's a good question for me, Watchman.On the surface this man's conversion could not be improved upon. He has been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit and has tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come.Hebrews 6:4-5(4) ...those who have been once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,...If he falls away, which is possible, he is like some of the people in the parable of the sower who become unfruitful. Despite appearances they never were REALLY SAVED. My belief is that God always knows all that is knowable in advance so He doesn't bother to write their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, knowing that of their own volition they will fall away. Matthew 13:18-23(18) " Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.(19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the way side.(20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it;(21) Yet he has not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arise because of the word, forthwith he is offended.(22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.(23) But he that receives seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; who also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty."If, however, our man remains active in his devotion and faith as a Christian, the word of God says he will never fall away, but will in fact by his diligence be making his calling and election sure.2Peter 1:3-11(3) According as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue
4) Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.(5) And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;(6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;(7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.(8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.(9) But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and has forgotten that he was purified from his old sins.(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall:(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.We can have assurrance of our salvation if we do not move away from the hope of the gospel.Colossians 1:21-23(21) " And you, that were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled,(22) In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which has been preached to every creature which is under heaven; of which I Paul am made a minister;"I think if the man died before he fell away his salvation would be secure.
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
That's a good question for me, Watchman.On the surface this man's conversion could not be improved upon. He has been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit and has tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come.Hebrews 6:4-5(4) ...those who have been once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,...If he falls away, which is possible, he is like some of the people in the parable of the sower who become unfruitful. Despite appearances they never were REALLY SAVED. My belief is that God always knows all that is knowable in advance so He doesn't bother to write their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, knowing that of their own volition they will fall away. Matthew 13:18-23(18) " Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.(19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the way side.(20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it;(21) Yet he has not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arise because of the word, forthwith he is offended.(22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.(23) But he that receives seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; who also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty."If, however, our man remains active in his devotion and faith as a Christian, the word of God says he will never fall away, but will in fact by his diligence be making his calling and election sure.2Peter 1:3-11(3) According as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue
4) Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.(5) And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;(6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;(7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.(8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.(9) But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and has forgotten that he was purified from his old sins.(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall:(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.We can have assurrance of our salvation if we do not move away from the hope of the gospel.Colossians 1:21-23(21) " And you, that were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled,(22) In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which has been preached to every creature which is under heaven; of which I Paul am made a minister;"I think if the man died before he fell away his salvation would be secure.QUOTE (watchman @ May 8 2009, 07:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73390
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
Yes , I am an OSAS believer. 100% . Absolutely !! It cannot be otherwise.For anyone who does not beleive in OSAS , I ask you to provide me the rules and criteria and the exact line that is crossed to lose salvation.You will find during your attempt to convince me that you will run into endless problems.First you may start out by listing all the broken laws , rules , and commandments required for a person to lose salvation. Problem is , your argument is based on following the law and you will have to set aside the function of the saviour , and at that point you have lost your whole premise of salvation. You will include yourself in the loss of salvation by that argument. The law is not the saviour.Even if you do compile an endless list of sins , please tell me how you are going to determine where to draw the line that salvation ends .How about 6 buttons on my shirt instead of 5 ??? Will that send me to Hell ? Some people think so. There argument is no different than yours.Please read the following for the rest of the story.An Amish / Hutterite type "Christian" group had prided themselves in living seperate from the world and all it's trappings. They wore simple clothing intended for function and not for fashion. The customary man's shirt had the standard 5 buttons set by hundreds of years of tradition. It was a religious "rule". Pretty harmless until .........One of the men asked the minister for an additional button on his shirt. His claim was that 5 buttons left too many gaps in the front of the shirt and at times skin was exposed. 6 buttons would solve the problem.The whole group began arguing about the extra button. The colony split and separated , freinds and family became enemies , and to this day the 5 button folks are positive that the 6 button folks are all going to hell.All of us on this forum would agree it was a silly argument , but we must recognize we are doing the same things trying to invent some type of line which is just enough sin to remove our salvation.Think about it.Martin W.
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
Yes , I am an OSAS believer. 100% . Absolutely !! It cannot be otherwise.For anyone who does not beleive in OSAS , I ask you to provide me the rules and criteria and the exact line that is crossed to lose salvation.You will find during your attempt to convince me that you will run into endless problems.First you may start out by listing all the broken laws , rules , and commandments required for a person to lose salvation. Problem is , your argument is based on following the law and you will have to set aside the function of the saviour , and at that point you have lost your whole premise of salvation. You will include yourself in the loss of salvation by that argument. The law is not the saviour.Even if you do compile an endless list of sins , please tell me how you are going to determine where to draw the line that salvation ends .How about 6 buttons on my shirt instead of 5 ??? Will that send me to Hell ? Some people think so. There argument is no different than yours.Please read the following for the rest of the story.An Amish / Hutterite type "Christian" group had prided themselves in living seperate from the world and all it's trappings. They wore simple clothing intended for function and not for fashion. The customary man's shirt had the standard 5 buttons set by hundreds of years of tradition. It was a religious "rule". Pretty harmless until .........One of the men asked the minister for an additional button on his shirt. His claim was that 5 buttons left too many gaps in the front of the shirt and at times skin was exposed. 6 buttons would solve the problem.The whole group began arguing about the extra button. The colony split and separated , freinds and family became enemies , and to this day the 5 button folks are positive that the 6 button folks are all going to hell.All of us on this forum would agree it was a silly argument , but we must recognize we are doing the same things trying to invent some type of line which is just enough sin to remove our salvation.Think about it.Martin W.
QUOTE (watchman @ May 9 2009, 02:53 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73402
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
He may have lost his original faith , but he has not lost his salvation.Remember faith is variable , some have lots , some have little , some appear to have lots and then appear to fall away from it.Some of them "fall away" because of the religious judgments they hear on a continuing basis toward them. Often I think they are simply abandoning the religious nonsense around them , it has nothing to do with faith but we judge it as such.To examine others is easy. To examine ourselves is hard. When we do , it shatters a bit of our own faith so we quit immediately and go back to rating other peoples faith. That is much more enjoyable. All the while we think we are walking with God. Who is fooling who ????Martin W.
I see what you saying and as in respect to the foreknowledge of God you may be right, but let me ask you thins hypothetically. If a man has a true conversion, live for God for 15 years then for one reason or another turns His back on God, do you really think this man was never truly saved and or received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that if he would have died before he lost faith he would not have gone to Heaven?
He may have lost his original faith , but he has not lost his salvation.Remember faith is variable , some have lots , some have little , some appear to have lots and then appear to fall away from it.Some of them "fall away" because of the religious judgments they hear on a continuing basis toward them. Often I think they are simply abandoning the religious nonsense around them , it has nothing to do with faith but we judge it as such.To examine others is easy. To examine ourselves is hard. When we do , it shatters a bit of our own faith so we quit immediately and go back to rating other peoples faith. That is much more enjoyable. All the while we think we are walking with God. Who is fooling who ????Martin W.
QUOTE (GwH @ May 7 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73357
I used to believe in Eternal Security, but the deeper I get into my walk, the more this seems false. Take for example the famous verse from Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV):4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.-Mike
Hi Mike.The verses in Hebrews 6 mean exactly what they say. Those people should not be returning again to repeat the repentance as they did when they were first saved by the elementary teachings of Christ. It has already been done. They have already done it. They cannot turn back the clock and do it over again. It has already been done !!!Read very carefully the first 2 verses of Hebrews 6. You will find the context is to leave the elementary teachings. In other words do not keep coming back to lay the foundation. Don't come back trying to crucify Christ again for your sins. It has already been done !!!! Like I said , read it very very carefully..........1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. That has a whole different meaning than saying they have fallen away from salvation and cannot come back. It is saying we cannot keep coming back to "lay again the foundation of repentance "Martin W.
I used to believe in Eternal Security, but the deeper I get into my walk, the more this seems false. Take for example the famous verse from Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV):4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.-Mike
Hi Mike.The verses in Hebrews 6 mean exactly what they say. Those people should not be returning again to repeat the repentance as they did when they were first saved by the elementary teachings of Christ. It has already been done. They have already done it. They cannot turn back the clock and do it over again. It has already been done !!!Read very carefully the first 2 verses of Hebrews 6. You will find the context is to leave the elementary teachings. In other words do not keep coming back to lay the foundation. Don't come back trying to crucify Christ again for your sins. It has already been done !!!! Like I said , read it very very carefully..........1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. That has a whole different meaning than saying they have fallen away from salvation and cannot come back. It is saying we cannot keep coming back to "lay again the foundation of repentance "Martin W.
QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 9 2009, 07:44 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73417
Hi Mike.The verses in Hebrews 6 mean exactly what they say. Those people should not be returning again to repeat the repentance as they did when they were first saved by the elementary teachings of Christ. It has already been done. They have already done it. They cannot turn back the clock and do it over again. It has already been done !!!Read very carefully the first 2 verses of Hebrews 6. You will find the context is to leave the elementary teachings. In other words do not keep coming back to lay the foundation. Don't come back trying to crucify Christ again for your sins. It has already been done !!!! Like I said , read it very very carefully..........1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. QUOTE
That has a whole different meaning than saying they have fallen away from salvation and cannot come back. It is saying we cannot keep coming back to "lay again the foundation of repentance "
Martin W.These verses have been an unnecessary and tragic source of terror to many backslidden believers. It seems that many preachers have used fear tactics in the attempt to keep people from leaving the Church denominations. They tell people that if they leave the Church, they will surely be burned in hell forever, and that they will not be allowed a second chance for salvation even a day after they back slide. This is one of the cruelest teachings in the Church. It is comparable to saying that once Israel backslid in the book of Judges, God would never be able to take them back. But we see the people repenting toward the end of each of the captivities, and God never had any problem sending deliverers (judges) to renew their relationship with God. The law of God tells us that when the people sinned, God would send them into captivity, but when they repented, God would reverse their captivity (Lev. 26:40-42). Solomon's prayer at the dedication of the temple says the same (1 Kings 8:47-50). There is forgiveness throughout the Old Testament. Shall we insist that Jesus is less forgiving in the New Testament? Such an interpretation makes no sense, unless someone wants to use it to bar the gates to prevent people from leaving the denomination. No, Hebrews 6:5, 6 is speaking of those who would revert back to Judaism, with its physical temple, Aaronic priesthood, ceremonial washings, dead works, and animal sacrifices. Hebrew Christians were supposed to leave those things behind and walk in a new and living way. God had left the temple in Jerusalem to inhabit our bodies on the day of Pentecost. Jesus Christ was the High Priest of the Christians. If a Christian sinned, he was admonished to confess his sins to God and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-10). But what would happen if a Christian reverted back to Judaism? How would such a person obtain forgiveness if he were to sin against his neighbor? Would he go to the temple with an animal sacrifice to obtain forgiveness from God? Would such a sacrifice be valid? Would God accept such a sacrifice? No, not after the perfect Sacrifice had come to replace those animal sacrifices. And so, Hebrews tells us that if a Hebrew were first enlightened by the message of Christ, but then later reverted back to Judaism, such a person would find it impossible to truly repent and to find forgiveness from sin—because he had rejected the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the cross. He could sacrifice a thousand lambs, but to no avail, for such sacrifices were no longer acts of faith in the sight of God. In fact, the continuation of animal sacrifices had become acts of defiance against Jesus Christ, “since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” Logabe
Hi Mike.The verses in Hebrews 6 mean exactly what they say. Those people should not be returning again to repeat the repentance as they did when they were first saved by the elementary teachings of Christ. It has already been done. They have already done it. They cannot turn back the clock and do it over again. It has already been done !!!Read very carefully the first 2 verses of Hebrews 6. You will find the context is to leave the elementary teachings. In other words do not keep coming back to lay the foundation. Don't come back trying to crucify Christ again for your sins. It has already been done !!!! Like I said , read it very very carefully..........1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. QUOTE
That has a whole different meaning than saying they have fallen away from salvation and cannot come back. It is saying we cannot keep coming back to "lay again the foundation of repentance "
Martin W.These verses have been an unnecessary and tragic source of terror to many backslidden believers. It seems that many preachers have used fear tactics in the attempt to keep people from leaving the Church denominations. They tell people that if they leave the Church, they will surely be burned in hell forever, and that they will not be allowed a second chance for salvation even a day after they back slide. This is one of the cruelest teachings in the Church. It is comparable to saying that once Israel backslid in the book of Judges, God would never be able to take them back. But we see the people repenting toward the end of each of the captivities, and God never had any problem sending deliverers (judges) to renew their relationship with God. The law of God tells us that when the people sinned, God would send them into captivity, but when they repented, God would reverse their captivity (Lev. 26:40-42). Solomon's prayer at the dedication of the temple says the same (1 Kings 8:47-50). There is forgiveness throughout the Old Testament. Shall we insist that Jesus is less forgiving in the New Testament? Such an interpretation makes no sense, unless someone wants to use it to bar the gates to prevent people from leaving the denomination. No, Hebrews 6:5, 6 is speaking of those who would revert back to Judaism, with its physical temple, Aaronic priesthood, ceremonial washings, dead works, and animal sacrifices. Hebrew Christians were supposed to leave those things behind and walk in a new and living way. God had left the temple in Jerusalem to inhabit our bodies on the day of Pentecost. Jesus Christ was the High Priest of the Christians. If a Christian sinned, he was admonished to confess his sins to God and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-10). But what would happen if a Christian reverted back to Judaism? How would such a person obtain forgiveness if he were to sin against his neighbor? Would he go to the temple with an animal sacrifice to obtain forgiveness from God? Would such a sacrifice be valid? Would God accept such a sacrifice? No, not after the perfect Sacrifice had come to replace those animal sacrifices. And so, Hebrews tells us that if a Hebrew were first enlightened by the message of Christ, but then later reverted back to Judaism, such a person would find it impossible to truly repent and to find forgiveness from sin—because he had rejected the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the cross. He could sacrifice a thousand lambs, but to no avail, for such sacrifices were no longer acts of faith in the sight of God. In fact, the continuation of animal sacrifices had become acts of defiance against Jesus Christ, “since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” Logabe
QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 9 2009, 07:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73415
Yes , I am an OSAS believer. 100% . Absolutely !! It cannot be otherwise.For anyone who does not beleive in OSAS , I ask you to provide me the rules and criteria and the exact line that is crossed to lose salvation.You will find during your attempt to convince me that you will run into endless problems.First you may start out by listing all the broken laws , rules , and commandments required for a person to lose salvation.
It is easy to show how someone could forfeit their salvation.#1 Romans 11:22, by not continuing in God's goodness.#2 Colossians 1:21-23 by not continuing the the faith.#3 Hebrews 3:6 and 14 by not holding fast to the confidence of our hope firm until the end.#4 Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26 by not enduring until the end.I could go on, but I think you get the point.
Yes , I am an OSAS believer. 100% . Absolutely !! It cannot be otherwise.For anyone who does not beleive in OSAS , I ask you to provide me the rules and criteria and the exact line that is crossed to lose salvation.You will find during your attempt to convince me that you will run into endless problems.First you may start out by listing all the broken laws , rules , and commandments required for a person to lose salvation.
It is easy to show how someone could forfeit their salvation.#1 Romans 11:22, by not continuing in God's goodness.#2 Colossians 1:21-23 by not continuing the the faith.#3 Hebrews 3:6 and 14 by not holding fast to the confidence of our hope firm until the end.#4 Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26 by not enduring until the end.I could go on, but I think you get the point.
QUOTE (watchman @ May 8 2009, 08:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73390
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
1) You can believe that I believe in eternal security and here is why !!!!2) Eph 2:8 , For by grace are you saved , partially quote .3) Saved , here is SOZO , and is in the Greek Perfect Tense , which means , THAT when you were saved , that is Past Action , but also in the Present , with continuing Results . All those who don't no what the Perfect Tense means , just check you Greek dictionary , or use the internet .4) It is also in the Greek Passive Voice , which means , that God did the saving and NOT you , since you are dead in trepasses and sins .5) It is also in the Greek Indicative Mood , which means that it is a literal FACT , SORRY !!!!!! And I have more verses for later. 6) Where does it say you can lose your Salvation ?
No OSAS believers in this forum?If not that is great.
1) You can believe that I believe in eternal security and here is why !!!!2) Eph 2:8 , For by grace are you saved , partially quote .3) Saved , here is SOZO , and is in the Greek Perfect Tense , which means , THAT when you were saved , that is Past Action , but also in the Present , with continuing Results . All those who don't no what the Perfect Tense means , just check you Greek dictionary , or use the internet .4) It is also in the Greek Passive Voice , which means , that God did the saving and NOT you , since you are dead in trepasses and sins .5) It is also in the Greek Indicative Mood , which means that it is a literal FACT , SORRY !!!!!! And I have more verses for later. 6) Where does it say you can lose your Salvation ?
Here dan p these are the believers the ministers the preachers He is speaking to here Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity. A lack to understand salvation leads one to this false belief God will never break his promise but men will break theirs
My question, How would a Christian, a genuine, born again believer would convert to some other faith without being chastised WAY before then?hebrews 12:6 ) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Not only that but If a person did such a thing, then how would the word of God have be in them at all regaurdless of what they claim?1 john 23) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.What is the truth, the word. And guess who else does not have the truth in him, satan!The whole epistle of 1 John has many test that aim at the person's current living style, and if one fails the test, they are simply NOT a true believer.example1 John 16) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.Notice something very critical, that the person walking in darkness DOES NOT get any cleansing by Jesus' blood. That person walking in darkness has not known the Lord at all. Do you think that a child of light can switch on and off to being a child of darkness?If someone ever left the faith then they simply were not really in the faith to begin with, not born again. If someone wanted to leave the faith, what dos that really say, especally if they do?
For the exact reason your Father tells you copper 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: The whole world follows after the beast thinking he is Jesus Christ haven't you read the man of sin must come first yet all these believers are still here casting out Devils ect ect why are they willing to believe this lie because they have listened to men .... Their OSAS,Rapture, doctrines .... They are too busy being told you don't have to understand Gods Word you are going to fly away somewhere be raptured right out here instead of learning what Gods Words says. they will believe the lie .... All those believers that think they are waiting to be raptured first will be following Antichrist.... Because God has told us the man of sin must come first (2 thess)
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (Copper25 @ May 9 2009, 10:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73443
My question, How would a Christian, a genuine, born again believer would convert to some other faith without being chastised WAY before then?hebrews 12:6 ) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Not only that but If a person did such a thing, then how would the word of God have be in them at all regaurdless of what they claim?1 john 23) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.What is the truth, the word. And guess who else does not have the truth in him, satan!The whole epistle of 1 John has many test that aim at the person's current living style, and if one fails the test, they are simply NOT a true believer.example1 John 16) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.Notice something very critical, that the person walking in darkness DOES NOT get any cleansing by Jesus' blood. That person walking in darkness has not known the Lord at all. Do you think that a child of light can switch on and off to being a child of darkness?If someone ever left the faith then they simply were not really in the faith to begin with, not born again. If someone wanted to leave the faith, what dos that really say, especally if they do?
Well put, Copper 25. If someone leaves the faith, really falls away by denying Christ and blaspheming the Holy Spirit, not giving a toss about God etc., this says that the soil of their heart is hard and unfruitful.Without violating His holiness God does everything He can to make stubborn, resistent, wayward people repent and renounce the world, the flesh and the devil. His discipline is remedial, it corrects those whose consciences are not seared and dysfunctional, whilst His punishment is penal, it penalises those who harden their hearts to Him beyond the point of no return. The following twelve verses teach us that God firstly foreknows all who remain true to Him and secondly predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that's the way it stays - with none of the things listed below being able to deprive a foreknown, predestined saint of God's love and saving grace.Romans 8:28-39(28) "And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.(29) For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren.(30) Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.(31) What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?(32) He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?(33) Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies34) Who is He that condemns? It is Christ that died, or rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.(35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?(36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.(37) But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.(38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,(39) Nor hight, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
My question, How would a Christian, a genuine, born again believer would convert to some other faith without being chastised WAY before then?hebrews 12:6 ) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Not only that but If a person did such a thing, then how would the word of God have be in them at all regaurdless of what they claim?1 john 23) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.What is the truth, the word. And guess who else does not have the truth in him, satan!The whole epistle of 1 John has many test that aim at the person's current living style, and if one fails the test, they are simply NOT a true believer.example1 John 16) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.Notice something very critical, that the person walking in darkness DOES NOT get any cleansing by Jesus' blood. That person walking in darkness has not known the Lord at all. Do you think that a child of light can switch on and off to being a child of darkness?If someone ever left the faith then they simply were not really in the faith to begin with, not born again. If someone wanted to leave the faith, what dos that really say, especally if they do?
Well put, Copper 25. If someone leaves the faith, really falls away by denying Christ and blaspheming the Holy Spirit, not giving a toss about God etc., this says that the soil of their heart is hard and unfruitful.Without violating His holiness God does everything He can to make stubborn, resistent, wayward people repent and renounce the world, the flesh and the devil. His discipline is remedial, it corrects those whose consciences are not seared and dysfunctional, whilst His punishment is penal, it penalises those who harden their hearts to Him beyond the point of no return. The following twelve verses teach us that God firstly foreknows all who remain true to Him and secondly predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that's the way it stays - with none of the things listed below being able to deprive a foreknown, predestined saint of God's love and saving grace.Romans 8:28-39(28) "And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.(29) For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren.(30) Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.(31) What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?(32) He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?(33) Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies
34) Who is He that condemns? It is Christ that died, or rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.(35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?(36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.(37) But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.(38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,(39) Nor hight, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."- Status
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