1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is The Osas Doctrine Satanic?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by watchman, May 6, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Copper25

    Copper25 New Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    First things first, Christina, you missed what I was saying and I do not believe that all people are God's elect.Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.Christina, now tell me Christina, looking at this text above carefully. Can it contradict what Jesus said in John 10? Yes or no?John 1027) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.Plain and simple, Christ words, not mine. Has The Lord spoken in vain? Yes or no?Answer these two simple questions please and think you.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    QUOTE (Copper25 @ May 11 2009, 05:43 PM)
    First things first, Christina, you missed what I was saying and I do not believe that all people are God's elect.Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.Christina, now tell me Christina, looking at this text above carefully. Can it contradict what Jesus said in John 10? Yes or no?John 1027) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.Plain and simple, Christ words, not mine. Has The Lord spoken in vain? Yes or no?Answer these two simple questions please and think you.
    I'll speak for Christina for once.Does she believe that ALL people are elects? NO! Does those words above scriptures contradicts John 10? NO! Is fulfilling a promise a ONE WAY STREET? NO! Then what? Every man has a choice to take the gift or not... If they decide to have Lord as Saviour and be Lord of their life... Can a saved person (Christian) break their promises? Yes!So therefore Christ will say to those who breaks their promise to God in Matthew 7:21-23. A promise will always be a TWO WAY STREET! God will not save a person who breaks their promise to God. The save will become void. Woe unto them that breaks their promise with God. Does Christina believe what I just said? Absolutely.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.Anybody can back to God if they chose too.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    QUOTE (Copper25 @ May 11 2009, 03:43 PM)
    First things first, Christina, you missed what I was saying and I do not believe that all people are God's elect.Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.Christina, now tell me Christina, looking at this text above carefully. Can it contradict what Jesus said in John 10? Yes or no?John 1027) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.Plain and simple, Christ words, not mine. Has The Lord spoken in vain? Yes or no?Answer these two simple questions please and think you.
    No I didnt misunderstand you at all I said ALL Belivers are not of the Elect any body with a clue knows false prophets are not of the Elect And your verse prove nothing except that God is faithful if we do not fall away why dont you explain apostacy to me if it can not be commited than why are we warned against it ??????????OSAS is not a doctrine of God .................. Being Saved is a promise we are given its not fufilled until judgement any one can fall away of their own free choice ..........
     
  4. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 11 2009, 04:29 PM)
    This statement is no more absurd than saying that OSAS is satanic. How can anyone who is a child of Christ, say God's word is satanic? Believes is what it takes to become a Christian, period. If I do not believe what I believed to begin with then I never truly believed it in the first place.So, a question? As a Christian, do you not sin every day?
    No one has said God's word is satanic but you. Satan is the one that wants you to continue in sin with a false since of false security. QUOTE
    Jesus died only once, for our sins past and present. If what you are saying floats, then He must die over and over, because we are still sinners.
    Jesus need not die again, but if you continue in unrepentant sin after calling Him your Savior, then you have trampled on Christ sacrifice, and His blood by which you were sanctified and you have done this despite the Spirit of Grace you have receive from God, and heaven is not what awaits you but a fiery indignation that will devours God's enemies.Hebrews 10 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
     
  5. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    7
    QUOTE (watchman @ May 11 2009, 08:07 PM)
    No one has said God's word is satanic but you. Satan is the one that wants you to continue in sin with a false since of false security. Jesus need not die again, but if you continue in unrepentant sin after calling Him your Savior, then you have trampled on His Christ sacrifice, and His blood by which you were sanctified and you have done this despite the Spirit of Grace you have receive from God, and heaven is not what awaits you but a fiery indignation that will devours God's enemies.Hebrews 10 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    So you are saying Christians do not sin?Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary. "He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 We are NOT saved by WORKS The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works! " NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9 Salvation is a FREE GIFT Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar! ". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 ". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18 Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth. "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 "Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 You become a CHILD OF GOD Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God. "Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15 Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth. My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken! "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29 Jesus will NEVER leave us Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation. ". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 ". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20 We already HAVE eternal life When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true. "He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24 Jesus will NOT cast you out ". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ "And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10 We are PERFECTED FOR EVER We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation? "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14 We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1 "And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18 We are KEPT by the POWER of God "Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5 "Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24 We are saved to the UTTERMOST "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25 We are SEALED until the day of redemption "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 ". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13 What about the BACKSLIDER? What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved! "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 We become the BODY OF CHRIST "For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30 "Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18 What if we later — BELIEVE NOT? Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13 But what if I sin an awful sin? 1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ." "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5 To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR! ". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
     
  6. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    The blind can't see, many of them because they do not want to.
     
  7. Copper25

    Copper25 New Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jordan, those that are not keeping God's commandments DON'T know God according to 1 John 2:4, as it is written "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truthChristina, Notice who is doing the holding in John 10:28-29, God, Christina, if any man were to pull a sheep out of God's hand, then that would mean that God is not greater then all. This is just a point I point out from John 10:29, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Christina, my sister, look at that verse with the simplicity of a child and tell me what you see. Is what I stated above not true? have I spoken falsehood above or do you not want to see the simple truth of this verse John 10:29Also to address, What makes anyone think that biblical speaking, every who says "Lord, Lord" is a true believer.______________________________________Look at the book of 1 john and you will start to find they of apostacyThey that walk in darkness, they that don't confess sin, they that don't keep his commands, they that hate their brother, and there are more things in the epistle also. But you are missing something, If one fails the test of first John, they are not truely in the faith! They confess Christ but in their life, they that fail the test and are still in apostacy._____________________________________I know this post my be long, sorry but one more thingI challenge you all on this regaurd. My brothers and sisters. There are many ifs and warnings of the bible. O how to be heeded they are to be.Now along with these warning in the bible, we have things of certainty.1) Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.The word of God never contradicts itself. So my one question, no dodging, no sidetracking, but simply answer it. Shall the gates of hell prevail against any member of the Church of Christ seeing that Jesus said that the hell wouldn't? Yes or No?By the way, not everyone saying "Lord, Lord" is part of the Church. Just making that one clear.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    copper you can not seem to understand we are not arguing the promises made But they only apply to those who do not fallaway commit apostacy ... You can not fall away from something without first being a part of it (i.e. a believer ) ....
     
  9. Polar

    Polar New Member

    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    2
    ForgivenWretch, you are so confused, it is difficult to know where to start.It seems like you are more interested in winning the argument than getting to the truth. "So you are saying Christians do not sin?"-- Of course they sin. Every day. And if they are true Christians they are seeking forgiveness. Every day.Someone who has accepted Christ but then chooses to sin and not seek forgiveness for that sin but rather continues to live the sinful lifestyle by choice will not see the kingdom of heaven."He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36-- The devil believes in Jesus...is he going to heaven, too?That is how silly using that scripture to try to make your point.The 'believe' part means faith, and having faith without living that faith means death.Just believing in Jesus won't cut it. He gave a set of instructions he has called us to follow.Why would he do that if those instructions were optional?Matt 7:22-23 explains it perfectly."Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"-- How could they have prophesied, performed miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name if they first hadn't established a relationship with Him? They would have had to have been saved at the time. So, if they were saved, why did Jesus call them 'evildoers' and order them to depart?If your point about once saved always saved is correct, then Jesus is making a mistake, no?
     
  10. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    7
    QUOTE (Polar @ May 11 2009, 10:14 PM)
    ForgivenWretch, you are so confused, it is difficult to know where to start.It seems like you are more interested in winning the argument than getting to the truth. "So you are saying Christians do not sin?"-- Of course they sin. Every day. And if they are true Christians they are seeking forgiveness. Every day.Someone who has accepted Christ but then chooses to sin and not seek forgiveness for that sin but rather continues to live the sinful lifestyle by choice will not see the kingdom of heaven."He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36-- The devil believes in Jesus...is he going to heaven, too?That is how silly using that scripture to try to make your point.The 'believe' part means faith, and having faith without living that faith means death.Just believing in Jesus won't cut it. He gave a set of instructions he has called us to follow.Why would he do that if those instructions were optional?Matt 7:22-23 explains it perfectly."Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"-- How could they have prophesied, performed miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name if they first hadn't established a relationship with Him? They would have had to have been saved at the time. So, if they were saved, why did Jesus call them 'evildoers' and order them to depart?If your point about once saved always saved is correct, then Jesus is making a mistake, no?
    I am not confued in the least, nor am I tryingn to win an argument, no more than anyone else participating in this so called discussion. It's amazing how when one differs in opinion, accusations begin to fly. By not answering, Watchman, has let on that it is his belief that Christians do not sin, because if they do they trample in Jesus' blood.As for your question about Satan believing in God and having everlasting life, he most certainly does, but the difference is he will everlasting burn in the pits of hell, because unlike Christians he has not repented, he never was saved, as is the case for so many who claim being Christian. As already posed, Christ died once for our sins past, present and future. If one is a true born again Christian ( a party [a child] of God), then most assuredly they are eternally His. I am His, as are my children mine, now and forever, and nothing can ever change that fact.From All About GodOnce Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical EvidenceThe Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.” There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal. In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24, among others. Once Saved, Always Saved – The Logical EvidenceAs with many other scriptural doctrines, the idea of “once saved, always saved” is also supported logically. Eternal security is consistent with everything else the Bible teaches about mankind, and God. Examining the doctrine in relation to the rest of Scripture demonstrates that it is consistent with all other biblically sound teachings. The idea of losing our salvation is not only unscriptural, but it creates monumental problems with other doctrines, including salvation by faith, the sin nature of man, and the purpose of Christ’s sacrifice. The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful -- that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant (James 2:10). If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This is concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system. Jesus Christ made some powerful statements about morality during His earthly ministry. In those three short years, He talked the talk and walked the walk of the toughest moral and ethical system in human history. Most religions focus on the external actions, but Christ took the concept of sin and holiness to a much deeper level. For example, most religions are satisfied to condemn the physical act of adultery, but Christ said “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Christ set the bar for holiness at a level all Christians are called to aspire to, but none can ever fully live up to, because of our sin nature. Just as the law of Moses was meant, in part, to demonstrate to Israel how impossible it was for mortal man to obtain the moral perfection of God, the standards of Christ also remind us of how shallow our best efforts at goodness really are. Thankfully, God has always provided a way for us to be forgiven for our shortcomings. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross served the same purpose for all mankind that the sacrificial lambs did for specific families before His ministry. Christ was a sinless, blameless substitute for our sins. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death? Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Hebrews 6:4-6 is an often misunderstood passage, which strongly supports the doctrine of eternal security in two ways: it implies that Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, and states that if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation, it would be forever lost. According to this passage, if a person could do something that cost them their salvation (which they cannot), then it would be “impossible” for them to be re-redeemed. Once Saved, Always Saved – The New CreationCritics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8). A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always. From Got QuestionsOnce a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.([​IMG] Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.© Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure
     
  11. logabe

    logabe Active Member

    Messages:
    841
    Likes Received:
    42
    QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 11 2009, 08:10 PM)
    So you are saying Christians do not sin?QUOTE
    Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ
    Yes, that is called Justification. That is where your spirit is saved but nowyou have to deal with your soul. You can't lose your Justification but youcan prolong your redemption by refusing to put on the MIND OF CHRIST.I see people experiencing Justification (Passover) all the time, but if theydon't go to Pentecost (Santification), which is a process, which is not aboutwhether you lose your salvation, but it is about INHERITING a BetterRESURRECTION or receiving your immortality first.The people in (Mat. 7:22-23) were Christians without any oil...just as thefive virgins had no oil. They were still VIRGINS (Christians), but they didnot QUALITY and the Bridegroom said, "I KNOW YOU NOT" (Mat. 25:12)Surely Jesus knows everybody...but the oil represents the Holy Ghost andin order for us to "KNOW JESUS", we have to know Him by the Spirit. Wehave to have a relationship which only comes by "Sanctification".This is where most Christians don't understand the statements that Jesusmakes because most don't understand God is just looking for a remmantHe can use to increase the Kingdom in the next Age. (Zeph. 3:13 & 20)says,13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble." 18 "I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts-- They came from you, {O Zion;} {The} reproach {of exile} is a burden on them. 20 "At that time I will bring you in, Even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth, When I restore your fortunes before your eyes," Says the LORD. If we use the talents that God gives us and increase the talents, Godwill give us the High Calling which is receiving the redemption of ourbody @ the FIRST RESURRECTION. That has something to do with yourworks. Not that your works save you but they will QUALIFY you for theRedemption (Rom. 8:23).23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Your works aren't your works @ all. They are the works of the Father thatwe submit to...when we humble ourselves to the Spirit of God, we allow God to work in us and change our carnal minds into the Mind of Christ. Ifwe allow that to happen in this life, God will reward us with immortality in the Ages to come. But, if not, a Christian will receive their immortality athousand yrs. later after they go through the FIRE that we are going throughright now. It's not about doing but it is about humility and submitting to the Spiritof God. It's about becoming a servant of Jesus Christ and learning how totreat God's people. Logabe Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary. "He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 We are NOT saved by WORKS The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works! " NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9 Salvation is a FREE GIFT Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar! ". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 ". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18 Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth. "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 "Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 You become a CHILD OF GOD Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God. "Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15 Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth. My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken! "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29 Jesus will NEVER leave us Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation. ". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 ". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20 We already HAVE eternal life When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true. "He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24 Jesus will NOT cast you out ". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ "And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10 We are PERFECTED FOR EVER We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation? "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14 We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1 "And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18 We are KEPT by the POWER of God "Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5 "Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24 We are saved to the UTTERMOST "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25 We are SEALED until the day of redemption "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 ". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13 What about the BACKSLIDER? What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved! "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 We become the BODY OF CHRIST "For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30 "Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18 What if we later — BELIEVE NOT? Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13 But what if I sin an awful sin? 1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ." "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5 To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR! ". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
     
  12. Copper25

    Copper25 New Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tried to keep this one real basicQUOTE (Christina @ May 11 2009, 10:49 PM)
    copper you can not seem to understand we are not arguing the promises made But they only apply to those who do not fallaway commit apostacy ... You can not fall away from something without first being a part of it (i.e. a believer ) ....
    This question still is not answered1) Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.QUOTE
    The word of God never contradicts itself. So my one question, no dodging, no sidetracking, but simply answer it. Shall the gates of hell prevail against any member of the Church of Christ seeing that Jesus said that the hell wouldn't? Yes or No?
    I also have in a real basic sense already said who would be they of the apostacy. Speaking of 1 johnQUOTE
    They that walk in darkness, they that don't confess sin, they that don't keep his commands, they that hate their brother, and there are more things in the epistle also.
    ButOk let us all if we are going to get anywhere in this thread about the falling away Let us examine the elements of fruitfulness and regeneration. let us attack the heart of the matter shall we?I was listening to matthew 13 and look at the 4 seed senerios1) Satan snacthes the word out of their 2) The seed have no root and when hradship comes, they are offended3) The cares and riches of the world choke the word out4) But some fall on good soil and become fruitfulConclusion therefore:That seed that prosper don't fall away in hardship, nor gets choked out by wordly things and riches. The other senerios will not bear fruit!Matthew 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the firesimple right? They in apostacy are those who are unfruitful, yet confessing "Lord, Lord"NextNow also let us consider the simplest explaination that discribes all they that fall into apostacy and destrcutcion and I think we can all agree on this one.john 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Thus the conclusion, who are they in apostacy? They that confess the Lord with their lips, but are in reality unregenerated (or not born again) and are unfruitful because the word never took root in (and prospered in) them!I think we just nailed this one on the head I'm thinking. Have I just spoken incorrectly? If so tell where? I think we have came to a strong conclusion just now. [​IMG]
     
  13. Polar

    Polar New Member

    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    2
    So, to sum up, as long as a person gave their life to Christ at one time or another, their actions after that are inconsequential.They are going to heaven regardless of what they do.....That about right?So tell me...is there nothing a born again Christian can do to have their one-way ticket to paradise voided? Nothing at all?- Continue to sin but not repent?- Ignore God and his laws?- Murder someone?- Rob a bank?- Cheat on taxes?- Cheat on your spouse?- Live in direct conflict with the majority of the 10 commandments?- How about if, by their words and/or actions, they cause others to reject God?Because at one time he/she committed to God, they now have a green light to live a life of sin?So basically what you are saying is, "the wages of sin is death"...unless that sin takes place after you shook hands with the executioner at one time or another.
     
  14. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    The fact is Paul tells us that ore past sins were forgiving when we were reborn not our future sin.Romans 323 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; So if we live in unrepentant, unforgiving sin after we were ''saved'' we will die and go to Hell. The good thing is if we continue to repent God will continue top forgive us (if our repentance is from a pure heart)1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
     
  15. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    7
    QUOTE (Polar @ May 12 2009, 09:22 AM)
    So, to sum up, as long as a person gave their life to Christ at one time or another, their actions after that are inconsequential.They are going to heaven regardless of what they do.....That about right?So tell me...is there nothing a born again Christian can do to have their one-way ticket to paradise voided? Nothing at all?- Continue to sin but not repent?- Ignore God and his laws?- Murder someone?- Rob a bank?- Cheat on taxes?- Cheat on your spouse?- Live in direct conflict with the majority of the 10 commandments?- How about if, by their words and/or actions, they cause others to reject God?Because at one time he/she committed to God, they now have a green light to live a life of sin?So basically what you are saying is, "the wages of sin is death"...unless that sin takes place after you shook hands with the executioner at one time or another.
    QUOTE
    So, to sum up, as long as a person gave their life to Christ at one time or another, their actions after that are inconsequential.
    Never said their actions were inconsequential. They will still answer to God, but none the less, they are still His.QUOTE
    They are going to heaven regardless of what they do.....That about right?
    Now you're getting it. That is exactly right.QUOTE
    So tell me...is there nothing a born again Christian can do to have their one-way ticket to paradise voided? Nothing at all?- Continue to sin but not repent?- Ignore God and his laws?- Murder someone?- Rob a bank?- Cheat on taxes?- Cheat on your spouse?- Live in direct conflict with the majority of the 10 commandments?- How about if, by their words and/or actions, they cause others to reject God?
    Nothing...God is not an indian giver.QUOTE
    Because at one time he/she committed to God, they now have a green light to live a life of sin?
    Never said nor impied such. As Christians we are still human and as humans, once we become Christians, Satan is even more eager to do whatever he can to bring us down.When one accepts Christ, and in their new life, one strives not to live a life of sin, but none the less, we sin everyday.QUOTE
    So basically what you are saying is, "the wages of sin is death"...unless that sin takes place after you shook hands with the executioner at one time or another.
    Sorry, not sure exactly what you are trying to say here.
     
  16. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    QUOTE (Polar @ May 12 2009, 10:22 AM)
    They are going to heaven regardless of what they do.....That about right?
    QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 12 2009, 11:36 AM)
    Now you're getting it. That is exactly right.
    This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Let see if the Bible agrees with this absurdity?Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin. 1st Corinthians 6:9-109 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven. Colossians 3:24-25 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally. Ephesians 5:1-33 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them. Revelation 21:7-27 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.
     
  17. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    7
    QUOTE (watchman @ May 12 2009, 10:47 AM)
    This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Let see if the Bible agrees with this absurdity?Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin. 1st Corinthians 6:9-109 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven. Colossians 3:24-25 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally. Ephesians 5:1-33 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them. Revelation 21:7-27 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.
    All I see is a lot of cherry picking here. But once again you seem to be claiming that Christians never sin. If your last statement held any water, then NO ONE would ever make it to heaven.So, as a Christian, you never sin? Maybe this time we can get an answer to this so simple yes or no question, but not going to hold my breath.
     
  18. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 12 2009, 11:53 AM)
    All I see is a lot of cherry picking here. But once again you seem to be claiming that Christians never sin. If your last statement held any water, then NO ONE would ever make it to heaven.So, as a Christian, you never sin? Maybe this time we can get an answer to this so simple yes or no question, but not going to hold my breath.
    Once again lets go to scripture and see what the bible has to say.1st John 37 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. We can easily tell a Christian from a sinner (even if that sinner claims to be a christian). Those that live in continuous sin are children of the devil, those that live in righteousness are children of God. You profession of faith is meaningless, in the end you will be judged by your fruit.Galatians 6:7-18 Be not deceived God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.8 For he that soweth to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption: but he that soweth of the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.God will not be mocked your empty, mute professions of faith, will not move Him.
     
  19. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    7
    QUOTE (watchman @ May 12 2009, 11:24 AM)
    Once again lets go to scripture and see what the bible has to say.1st John 37 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. We can easily tell a Christian from a sinner (even if that sinner claims to be a christian). Those that live in continuous sin are children of the devil, those that live in righteousness are children of God. You profession of faith is meaningless, in the end you will be judged by your fruit.Galatians 6:7-18 Be not deceived God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.8 For he that soweth to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption: but he that soweth of the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.God will not be mocked your empty, mute professions of faith, will not move Him.
    I knew you could not answer my question. If you did it would totally go against everything you have said.Who are you to judge any one's proffessions of faith? Who died and made you god? No sir you can not tell a Christian from a sinner, here again you insist on playing God.Before you attemt to remove the stick from my eye, try removing the beam from your own.
     
  20. watchman

    watchman New Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    3
    QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 12 2009, 12:38 PM)
    I knew you could not answer my question. If you did it would totally go against everything you have said.Who are you to judge any one's proffessions of faith? Who died and made you god? No sir you can not tell a Christian from a sinner, here again you insist on playing God.Before you attemt to remove the stick from my eye, try removing the beam from your own.
    I did answer your question if i were a sinner I would not be a christian. Now am I perfect? No not yet, but I have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.1st John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:If i sin I can repent and God will forgive me.1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.However if I believed in the OSAS nonsense there would be no need for repentance because my future sins would have been forgiving even before I committed them. That is not what scripture teaches, it is a lie from Satan.QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 12 2009, 12:38 PM)
    I knew you could not answer my question. If you did it would totally go against everything you have said.Who are you to judge any one's proffessions of faith? Who died and made you god? No sir you can not tell a Christian from a sinner, here again you insist on playing God.Before you attemt to remove the stick from my eye, try removing the beam from your own.
    You are right I am no ones judge nor am I God, however I do have eyes to see if fruit is good or bad, and I have God's Word to know that OSAS is false.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...