IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[The Gospel of Christ]

Some man taught you all that.

The bible says the AC kills all the saints.
During the trib.
That alone throws a monkey wrench in your doctrine.

Oh really?
Then who are these saints getting killed during the tribulation?
If the “church” was already raptured before the tribulation (as pre-trib teaches)...
Who are these saints?
Where did they come from?
Why are they not spared?

You can’t have it both ways.

Either:
The church is gone, and these saints are just “tribulation leftovers” (which has zero biblical support)

or

The saints go through the tribulation — just like Jesus said.

And here’s the kicker:
“It was given to [the Beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them...”
— Revelation 13:7

You know what it doesn’t say?
“It was given to the Beast to make war with the tribulation saints that got saved after the rapture and forgot to read Left Behind.”

That phrase does not exist in Scripture. It’s Scofieldian science fiction.
There’s no category of “tribulation saints” distinct from “the church.”
That’s a theological invention used to patch the holes in the sinking ship of pre-trib eschatology.

Jesus Said It Plainly:
“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send out His angels... and they will gather His elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

After.
Not before.
Not mid.
Not in a secret vanishing.

And About That “Some Man Taught You” Line…
Scofield was a man.
Darby was a man.
The whole Dispensationalist system came from men — not Jesus, not the apostles, not the early Church.

The doctrine you're clinging to was literally invented in the 1800s by a failed lawyer who slapped his own footnotes into the Bible and ended up deceiving millions.
So yeah — that “some man” you're warning me about?
You're actually parroting him.

Meanwhile, what I’m saying is backed by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and every early Christian writer for the first 1,800 years of church history — before your Scofield fantasy ever existed.

If the Antichrist kills the saints...
Then the saints are there during the tribulation.
Which means the rapture didn’t happen before.

Case closed.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

...and yet Hitler and Stalin tried to wipe out the JEWS.
Now it is all Arab nations that want the JEWS wiped out.
( the race you say does not exist)

Let me break this down for you real slow:

No one’s denying people died. Yes, Hitler targeted Jews. Yes, Stalin persecuted religious groups.
But that doesn’t magically confirm biblical lineage.
Persecution doesn’t prove Abrahamic descent — it proves human depravity.

You keep yelling “JEWS!” like that settles something.
The question isn’t who calls themselves Jews.
The question is:
Are they descendants of Jacob? Of the twelve tribes?
Because biblically, that’s what Israel means.
And Khazars, Russian and Eastern Europeans — genetically, historically, geographically — are not that.
They’re converts. 8th century. Caucasus region. Look it up.

So yes — the modern Jewish “race” as defined by Zionist propaganda is a constructed identity.
One built through conversion, not covenant.
A religion — not a bloodline.

And spare me the “Arab nations want to wipe them out” line.
That’s geopolitical spin — not eschatology.
Every empire in history has been at war with someone.
You don’t validate someone’s divine election by pointing to the fact that they have enemies.
By that logic, the Uyghurs are God’s chosen too.

Bottom line:
Modern Zionism hijacked the word “Jew” to justify a state built on blood and banking —
not the Gospel, not the covenant, and sure as hell not Jesus.

So go ahead and chant “never again” all you want.
But don’t confuse Talmudic Zionism with the faith of Moses —
and don’t confuse war crimes with biblical prophecy.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The Gospel of Christ said:
"You said Noah was “taken” — as if being lifted in an ark means raptured to heaven?"

Noah, Lot, the 5 wise virgins and the church are all gathered/taken.
The only place the wicked world is destroyed is the LOF.
And that is after the mil.

Rev 19 is the second coming on white horses.
Only the satanic army is destroyed.
Then the mil.
Only pretrib rapture fits.
Your doctrine is easily debunked

You just stitched together a Scofield fever dream and called it “doctrine.”
Let’s burn it down with the actual words of Christ.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

Same with Lot — he didn’t vanish.
He ran. Fled. Escaped by inches.
He wasn’t raptured — he was spared through judgment, just like the end-time remnant will be.

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.
Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

The wicked are judged when Christ returns.
Not 7 years later.
Not at some imaginary third coming.
Not after your Scofield-sponsored fantasy timeline.

Only pre-trib fits?
Only pre-trib fits if you rip verses out of context, ignore everything Jesus said, and blindly trust a 19th-century Zionist conman who added his own footnotes to Scripture.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.
There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.
There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re defending a lie that insults the blood of Christ, mocks the testimony of the martyrs, and turns the New Covenant into a sideshow for Zionist politics.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

When Jesus returns, there won’t be a Scofield study Bible left standing.
There will be fire, judgment, and glory — and those who endure to the end will be saved.
Not those who thought they’d fly out early and skip the cross.

Keep your rapture fiction.
I’ll keep the words of the King.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just stitched together a Scofield fever dream and called it “doctrine.”
Let’s burn it down with the actual words of Christ.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

Same with Lot — he didn’t vanish.
He ran. Fled. Escaped by inches.
He wasn’t raptured — he was spared through judgment, just like the end-time remnant will be.

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.
Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

The wicked are judged when Christ returns.
Not 7 years later.
Not at some imaginary third coming.
Not after your Scofield-sponsored fantasy timeline.

Only pre-trib fits?
Only pre-trib fits if you rip verses out of context, ignore everything Jesus said, and blindly trust a 19th-century Zionist conman who added his own footnotes to Scripture.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.
There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.
There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re defending a lie that insults the blood of Christ, mocks the testimony of the martyrs, and turns the New Covenant into a sideshow for Zionist politics.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

When Jesus returns, there won’t be a Scofield study Bible left standing.
There will be fire, judgment, and glory — and those who endure to the end will be saved.
Not those who thought they’d fly out early and skip the cross.

Keep your rapture fiction.
I’ll keep the words of the King.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

In the rapture the saints RISE INTO THE AIR...FACT
Noah rose over a mile into the heavens.... FACT
THe saints are in heaven according to Jesus during the tribulation....FACT
Noah was in the heavens DURING THE FLOOD/TRIULATION...FACT
The saints return to earth in rev 19 POST TRIULATION...FACT
Noah RETURNS POST FLOOD....FACT
Noah is gathered into the ark pre flood....FACT
The saints are gathered pretribulation...FACT
Scofield is an obsession in your mind ...FACT

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.

As do we.
The omission (elephant in the room) is that ;
1) The setting is OPPOSITE your doctrines setting ....so you are wrong yet again.
2) They went into the marriage chamber (heaven like the ark and Noah). .... Which your doctrine must find a way to change.
...also note that THE DOOR WAS SHUT (hmmmm like with noah?)....so many many things that flow so beautifully that your doctrine can not handle.

Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

Yes. we are in the delay.
The reason they came out to meet the groom is because they were told to.
kinda like us...except not any of your teachers.

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

Yes as you point out,he destroys the AC at rev 19. the second coming.

those of his army "know not God", and yes they are destroyed

Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

I already showed you that in that verse angels are gathering ,NOT JESUS...and they are gathered , FROM HEAVEN.
(you do not have any verses supporting your doctrine of the postribulation rapture..ZERO)

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.

No need.
he comes once for the church. Never said anything different

There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.

There are 2 escape verses.
one in rev
one in the gospels from Jesus.
so there are 2 for you to meddle with

There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

What exactly would you like me to debunk in your doctrine? pick something. I can readily oblige you.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

Unpack rev 14.
Unpack the 10 virgin parable.

none that adhere to your doctrine can unpack either one

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let me break this down for you real slow:

No one’s denying people died. Yes, Hitler targeted Jews. Yes, Stalin persecuted religious groups.
But that doesn’t magically confirm biblical lineage.
Persecution doesn’t prove Abrahamic descent — it proves human depravity.

You keep yelling “JEWS!” like that settles something.
The question isn’t who calls themselves Jews.
The question is:
Are they descendants of Jacob? Of the twelve tribes?
Because biblically, that’s what Israel means.
And Khazars, Russian and Eastern Europeans — genetically, historically, geographically — are not that.
They’re converts. 8th century. Caucasus region. Look it up.

So yes — the modern Jewish “race” as defined by Zionist propaganda is a constructed identity.
One built through conversion, not covenant.
A religion — not a bloodline.

And spare me the “Arab nations want to wipe them out” line.
That’s geopolitical spin — not eschatology.
Every empire in history has been at war with someone.
You don’t validate someone’s divine election by pointing to the fact that they have enemies.
By that logic, the Uyghurs are God’s chosen too.

Bottom line:
Modern Zionism hijacked the word “Jew” to justify a state built on blood and banking —
not the Gospel, not the covenant, and sure as hell not Jesus.

So go ahead and chant “never again” all you want.
But don’t confuse Talmudic Zionism with the faith of Moses —
and don’t confuse war crimes with biblical prophecy.

The point is, the Jews you say don't exist are here and are the target of demon filled rulers and individuals.
maybe someone can Send satan the memo so he can possily stop persecuting the Jews.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh really?
Then who are these saints getting killed during the tribulation?
If the “church” was already raptured before the tribulation (as pre-trib teaches)...
Who are these saints?
Where did they come from?
Why are they not spared?

You can’t have it both ways.

Either:
The church is gone, and these saints are just “tribulation leftovers” (which has zero biblical support)

or

The saints go through the tribulation — just like Jesus said.

And here’s the kicker:
“It was given to [the Beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them...”
— Revelation 13:7

You know what it doesn’t say?
“It was given to the Beast to make war with the tribulation saints that got saved after the rapture and forgot to read Left Behind.”

That phrase does not exist in Scripture. It’s Scofieldian science fiction.
There’s no category of “tribulation saints” distinct from “the church.”
That’s a theological invention used to patch the holes in the sinking ship of pre-trib eschatology.

Jesus Said It Plainly:
“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send out His angels... and they will gather His elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

After.
Not before.
Not mid.
Not in a secret vanishing.

And About That “Some Man Taught You” Line…
Scofield was a man.
Darby was a man.
The whole Dispensationalist system came from men — not Jesus, not the apostles, not the early Church.

The doctrine you're clinging to was literally invented in the 1800s by a failed lawyer who slapped his own footnotes into the Bible and ended up deceiving millions.
So yeah — that “some man” you're warning me about?
You're actually parroting him.

Meanwhile, what I’m saying is backed by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and every early Christian writer for the first 1,800 years of church history — before your Scofield fantasy ever existed.

If the Antichrist kills the saints...
Then the saints are there during the tribulation.
Which means the rapture didn’t happen before.

Case closed.

AHEM
The ones taken in the pretribulation rapture are the ones JESUS SAID are taken pretribulation. (the worthy ones)
The ones killed in the pretribulation ,are those left behind....AS JESUS DECLARED.
Taken = the 5 wise virgins, the ones taken in mat 24 (before the flood) LOT, Noah, acts 1,and the 2 escape verses..(all not known by you or your teachers)
because you have only studied your doctrine , the heart of the bible is new to you.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

In the rapture the saints RISE INTO THE AIR...FACT
Noah rose over a mile into the heavens.... FACT
THe saints are in heaven according to Jesus during the tribulation....FACT
Noah was in the heavens DURING THE FLOOD/TRIULATION...FACT
The saints return to earth in rev 19 POST TRIULATION...FACT
Noah RETURNS POST FLOOD....FACT
Noah is gathered into the ark pre flood....FACT
The saints are gathered pretribulation...FACT
Scofield is an obsession in your mind ...FACT



As do we.
The omission (elephant in the room) is that ;
1) The setting is OPPOSITE your doctrines setting ....so you are wrong yet again.
2) They went into the marriage chamber (heaven like the ark and Noah). .... Which your doctrine must find a way to change.
...also note that THE DOOR WAS SHUT (hmmmm like with noah?)....so many many things that flow so beautifully that your doctrine can not handle.



Yes. we are in the delay.
The reason they came out to meet the groom is because they were told to.
kinda like us...except not any of your teachers.



Yes as you point out,he destroys the AC at rev 19. the second coming.

those of his army "know not God", and yes they are destroyed



I already showed you that in that verse angels are gathering ,NOT JESUS...and they are gathered , FROM HEAVEN.
(you do not have any verses supporting your doctrine of the postribulation rapture..ZERO)




No need.
he comes once for the church. Never said anything different


There are 2 escape verses.
one in rev
one in the gospels from Jesus.
so there are 2 for you to meddle with



What exactly would you like me to debunk in your doctrine? pick something. I can readily oblige you.


Unpack rev 14.
Unpack the 10 virgin parable.

none that adhere to your doctrine can unpack either one

You keep yelling “FACT” like that makes up for your lack of scripture.
But emotional typing isn’t exegesis — and Scofield isn’t Jesus.

Let’s deal with your “Noah was raptured” fantasy.
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Noah was left — preserved through judgment.

You keep trying to reverse this with a forced parallel:
“Noah went up = saints go up.”
But the Bible doesn’t say Noah ascended into heaven.
He floated — on water — through judgment.
Not into the clouds. Not into the third heaven.
He was left on Earth, just like the remnant will be during tribulation.

Your whole interpretation turns Jesus' words completely backwards.

You say the saints are in heaven during the tribulation?
That’s your doctrine — not scripture.

Let’s quote Jesus again:

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

You keep dodging the word “after” like it’s a mosquito.
But it’s right there — red letters.
Jesus said AFTER.

And by the way — those angels are gathering from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other — that phrase includes the skies, not heaven the dwelling place of God.
Stop confusing Greek metaphors with Scofield’s footnotes.

“The five wise virgins went into the marriage chamber.”
Yes. After the delay.
Not before tribulation. Not before the shout.
And you said it yourself: “the door was shut.”
Exactly — just like Noah’s ark was shut after judgment began — not before.
You're literally proving my point while thinking you're refuting it.

You said:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”
Yes, you do — functionally.
You teach a secret coming before tribulation, then a public coming after.
Two comings.
That’s not Bible. That’s Scofield-speak.

You want me to “unpack Revelation 14”?

Easy:
Revelation 14:12 — “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Those saints are in the tribulation, holding fast to Jesus.
Not “tribulation leftovers.”
Not B-team believers.
They’re called saints — the same term used for the Church throughout the New Testament.

Revelation 14 doesn’t support pre-trib — it obliterates it.

And that “escape verse” in Luke?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...” — Luke 21:36

That’s not a pre-trib rapture escape clause.
It’s a call to perseverance, to be spiritually awake and found faithful when He returns — not to disappear seven years early in a Zionist fantasy timeline.

You said, “What would you like me to debunk in your doctrine?”

Start here:

Show me ONE verse that says:

Jesus returns before the tribulation to remove the Church.

The Church and Israel are permanently separate peoples of God.

The saints are in heaven during the tribulation while Israel takes the hit.

That salvation is offered in stages — Church first, then national Israel.

That Jesus comes twice, years apart.

You won’t find them.
Because they’re not in the Bible — they’re in your Scofield study notes.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The point is, the Jews you say don't exist are here and are the target of demon filled rulers and individuals.
maybe someone can Send satan the memo so he can possily stop persecuting the Jews.

You’re not listening.

No one said “Jews don’t exist.”
I said modern Jewish identity is not synonymous with Biblical Israel.
There’s a difference between religious converts and covenant lineage —
and you keep pretending those are the same thing just because persecution exists.

Let me help you out:
Satan doesn’t target people because of ethnicity.
He targets people because of truth.
Because of Christ.

“They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony...” — Revelation 12:11

You think Satan is attacking secular, Christ-rejecting Zionists because they’re God's chosen people?
No — he's attacking because he wants chaos, division, and to keep the world confused about who God's people actually are:
those in Christ.

Jesus said:
“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.” — John 8:39
“If God were your Father, you would love Me.” — John 8:42

But He said to them:

“You are of your father, the devil...” — John 8:44

He was speaking to Jews, by ethnicity — and He still rejected their claim to divine status because they rejected Him.

So no — being hated by the world does not confirm you’re God’s chosen.
If that were the case, every persecuted cult, tribe, and regime could make the same claim.

“In Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:28–29

That is the real Israel.

So maybe someone should send Satan a memo:
The people of God aren’t defined by a bloodline anymore.
They’re defined by the blood of Christ.
And Zionist nationalism has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

AHEM
The ones taken in the pretribulation rapture are the ones JESUS SAID are taken pretribulation. (the worthy ones)
The ones killed in the pretribulation ,are those left behind....AS JESUS DECLARED.
Taken = the 5 wise virgins, the ones taken in mat 24 (before the flood) LOT, Noah, acts 1,and the 2 escape verses..(all not known by you or your teachers)
because you have only studied your doctrine , the heart of the bible is new to you.

You just named a bunch of people and events — Noah, Lot, Acts 1, the 5 virgins — and slapped “pretrib rapture” on them like a Scofield bumper sticker. But Jesus never called any of them raptures. That’s you forcing your doctrine into the text, not drawing it from the text.

Let’s break it down.

Matthew 24 — Who Gets Taken?
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matt 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Just like in Noah’s day.
Noah was left behind — saved through judgment.
Jesus literally says the ones taken are swept away in destruction.
You're quoting it completely backwards.

The 5 Wise Virgins?
They didn’t vanish. They waited through a long delay, then went in when the bridegroom came — after the warning cry.
That’s endurance, not escape.
The door shuts after the wait — not before it.

Lot?

Lot fled on foot, barely escaping with his life.
He wasn’t “taken” anywhere — he ran from fire.
And Jesus used Lot as an example of God preserving the righteous through judgment, not removing them beforehand.

Acts 1?
Jesus ascended — He didn’t rapture the Church.
That’s a category error.
And the angels said He will return the same way He left — once, visibly, from the clouds.
They didn’t say He’d come secretly seven years earlier to scoop up a hidden group.

The so-called ‘Escape Verses’?

Let me guess — Luke 21:36?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...”

That’s not about vanishing into the clouds.
It’s about being spiritually prepared to endure and stand before the Son of Man.
Same as Matthew 24:13 —

“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”

You keep turning warnings about faithfulness into excuses for escapism.

“Worthy Ones Taken Pretrib”?

Where’s the verse?
Where does Jesus say “those counted worthy will be taken before the tribulation begins”?

You won’t find it — because it doesn’t exist.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect...” — Matthew 24:29–31

That’s your timeline — right there in red letters.
AFTER.

You don’t get to quote Jesus out of context in five places and ignore the one spot where He clearly lays out the timing.

Bottom line:
You’re not teaching what Jesus said.
You’re teaching what Scofield said Jesus meant.

There’s not a single verse that describes a secret pretrib rapture of the Church.
There’s not a single verse that creates a second group of "tribulation saints."
There’s not a single verse where Jesus “takes the worthy away” and leaves others behind to earn salvation 2.0.

What there is —
is a clear teaching of endurance, judgment, and final gathering after tribulation.
That’s what Jesus, Paul, and the early Church taught.

And until you can quote something other than Scofield-filtered allegory,
your doctrine’s not just wrong —
it’s deception.

Case still closed.

 

[keithr]

Let’s deal with your “Noah was raptured” fantasy.
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Noah was left — preserved through judgment.

Noah is not a type of the Church being raptured; it is Enoch who is the type of the rapture. He was "taken", or raptured, before the flood (great tribulation!):

Genesis 5:24 (WEB):

(24) Enoch walked with God, and he was not found, for God took him.​

Hebrews 11:5 (WEB):

(5) By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.​

Noah and his family are a type of baptism - 1 Peter 3:20-21 (WEB):

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

(21) This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you— ...​

 

[rebuilder 454]

AHEM
The ones taken in the pretribulation rapture are the ones JESUS SAID are taken pretribulation. (the worthy ones)
The ones killed in the pretribulation ,are those left behind....AS JESUS DECLARED.
Taken = the 5 wise virgins, the ones taken in mat 24 (before the flood) LOT, Noah, acts 1,and the 2 escape verses..(all not known by you or your teachers)
because you have only studied your doctrine , the heart of the bible is new to you.

You keep yelling “FACT” like that makes up for your lack of scripture.
But emotional typing isn’t exegesis — and Scofield isn’t Jesus.

Let’s deal with your “Noah was raptured” fantasy.
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Noah was left — preserved through judgment.

You keep trying to reverse this with a forced parallel:
“Noah went up = saints go up.”
But the Bible doesn’t say Noah ascended into heaven.
He floated — on water — through judgment.
Not into the clouds. Not into the third heaven.
He was left on Earth, just like the remnant will be during tribulation.

Your whole interpretation turns Jesus' words completely backwards.

You say the saints are in heaven during the tribulation?
That’s your doctrine — not scripture.

Let’s quote Jesus again:

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

You keep dodging the word “after” like it’s a mosquito.
But it’s right there — red letters.
Jesus said AFTER.

And by the way — those angels are gathering from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other — that phrase includes the skies, not heaven the dwelling place of God.
Stop confusing Greek metaphors with Scofield’s footnotes.

“The five wise virgins went into the marriage chamber.”
Yes. After the delay.
Not before tribulation. Not before the shout.
And you said it yourself: “the door was shut.”
Exactly — just like Noah’s ark was shut after judgment began — not before.
You're literally proving my point while thinking you're refuting it.

You said:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”
Yes, you do — functionally.
You teach a secret coming before tribulation, then a public coming after.
Two comings.
That’s not Bible. That’s Scofield-speak.

You want me to “unpack Revelation 14”?

Easy:
Revelation 14:12 — “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Those saints are in the tribulation, holding fast to Jesus.
Not “tribulation leftovers.”
Not B-team believers.
They’re called saints — the same term used for the Church throughout the New Testament.

Revelation 14 doesn’t support pre-trib — it obliterates it.

And that “escape verse” in Luke?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...” — Luke 21:36

That’s not a pre-trib rapture escape clause.
It’s a call to perseverance, to be spiritually awake and found faithful when He returns — not to disappear seven years early in a Zionist fantasy timeline.

You said, “What would you like me to debunk in your doctrine?”

Start here:

Show me ONE verse that says:

Jesus returns before the tribulation to remove the Church.

The Church and Israel are permanently separate peoples of God.

The saints are in heaven during the tribulation while Israel takes the hit.

That salvation is offered in stages — Church first, then national Israel.

That Jesus comes twice, years apart.

You won’t find them.
Because they’re not in the Bible — they’re in your Scofield study notes.

Quote
"Revelation 14 doesn’t support pre-trib — it obliterates it."

Rev 14 is a rapture of Jews.
Your postrib doctrine has a flaw of impossibility.
What Rev 14 does is it destroys your doctrines " one coming"

When acts 1 '" like manner", and Rev 14 gathering with Jesus on a cloud,and then the 2 comings of mat 24 are combined, that is 3 indisputable witnesses against your doctrine.

What happened is, is that man formulated that doctrine, and it's so poorly thought out that most anybody with a bible can see that it's a dead end.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Noah is not a type of the Church being raptured; it is Enoch who is the type of the rapture. He was "taken", or raptured, before the flood (great tribulation!):

Genesis 5:24 (WEB):

(24) Enoch walked with God, and he was not found, for God took him.​

Hebrews 11:5 (WEB):

(5) By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.​

Noah and his family are a type of baptism - 1 Peter 3:20-21 (WEB):

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

(21) This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you— ...​

Jesus used Noah and Lot's deliverance side by side.
He used both as pretribulation.
Both gathered pretrib.
But Noah is used as a vivid pretrib rapture.
Noah gathered before the flood into the ark.
Nothing was happening while Noah was in the ark pretrib.
When the flood came, Noah was in the ark (a type of heaven), high above the earth.(during the trib)
Noah returns POSTR TRIBULATION BACK TO EARTH.
NEW BEGINNINGS ON EARTH.

Ahem...AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF THE RAPTURE AND POST TRIB RETURN.

EXACT DUPLICATE.

But the doctrines of men torture all verses for a mental "solution"

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just named a bunch of people and events — Noah, Lot, Acts 1, the 5 virgins — and slapped “pretrib rapture” on them like a Scofield bumper sticker. But Jesus never called any of them raptures. That’s you forcing your doctrine into the text, not drawing it from the text.

Let’s break it down.

Matthew 24 — Who Gets Taken?
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matt 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Just like in Noah’s day.
Noah was left behind — saved through judgment.
Jesus literally says the ones taken are swept away in destruction.
You're quoting it completely backwards.

The 5 Wise Virgins?
They didn’t vanish. They waited through a long delay, then went in when the bridegroom came — after the warning cry.
That’s endurance, not escape.
The door shuts after the wait — not before it.

Lot?

Lot fled on foot, barely escaping with his life.
He wasn’t “taken” anywhere — he ran from fire.
And Jesus used Lot as an example of God preserving the righteous through judgment, not removing them beforehand.

Acts 1?
Jesus ascended — He didn’t rapture the Church.
That’s a category error.
And the angels said He will return the same way He left — once, visibly, from the clouds.
They didn’t say He’d come secretly seven years earlier to scoop up a hidden group.

The so-called ‘Escape Verses’?

Let me guess — Luke 21:36?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...”

That’s not about vanishing into the clouds.
It’s about being spiritually prepared to endure and stand before the Son of Man.
Same as Matthew 24:13 —

“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”

You keep turning warnings about faithfulness into excuses for escapism.

“Worthy Ones Taken Pretrib”?

Where’s the verse?
Where does Jesus say “those counted worthy will be taken before the tribulation begins”?

You won’t find it — because it doesn’t exist.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect...” — Matthew 24:29–31

That’s your timeline — right there in red letters.
AFTER.

You don’t get to quote Jesus out of context in five places and ignore the one spot where He clearly lays out the timing.

Bottom line:
You’re not teaching what Jesus said.
You’re teaching what Scofield said Jesus meant.

There’s not a single verse that describes a secret pretrib rapture of the Church.
There’s not a single verse that creates a second group of "tribulation saints."
There’s not a single verse where Jesus “takes the worthy away” and leaves others behind to earn salvation 2.0.

What there is —
is a clear teaching of endurance, judgment, and final gathering after tribulation.
That’s what Jesus, Paul, and the early Church taught.

And until you can quote something other than Scofield-filtered allegory,
your doctrine’s not just wrong —
it’s deception.

Case still closed.

QUOTE
“Worthy Ones Taken Pretrib”?
Where’s the verse?
Where does Jesus say “those counted worthy will be taken before the tribulation begins”?"


I already told you.
Jesus said "because you have kept the word of my testimony, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that's about to come up on the whole world."

Jesus said" Put pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come up on the whole Earth And stand before son of man"

The 10 virgin parable has the worthy ones gathered.

That is another of many dynamics your doctrine totally left out.
Only the worthy ones of the church are raptured....as depicted in the virgin parable
I have never seen a postribber understand "worthy vs unworthy " dynamic in the church or in the rewards given in heaven

Even when I show them the rewards in heaven are a "worthy vs unworthy " dynamic, they insist (blatantly disregarding scripture), that any such dynamic exists.

IOW MOST POSTRIBS KNOW THEIR SPECIALIZED LITTLE BIBLE SECTION, and it basically makes them out to be embarrassed by the entire council of the bible.

Just look at your inability to debate the BIBLE.

Your default on every post is Scofield.

Plain comical.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just named a bunch of people and events — Noah, Lot, Acts 1, the 5 virgins — and slapped “pretrib rapture” on them like a Scofield bumper sticker. But Jesus never called any of them raptures. That’s you forcing your doctrine into the text, not drawing it from the text.

Let’s break it down.

Matthew 24 — Who Gets Taken?
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matt 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Just like in Noah’s day.
Noah was left behind — saved through judgment.
Jesus literally says the ones taken are swept away in destruction.
You're quoting it completely backwards.

The 5 Wise Virgins?
They didn’t vanish. They waited through a long delay, then went in when the bridegroom came — after the warning cry.
That’s endurance, not escape.
The door shuts after the wait — not before it.

Lot?

Lot fled on foot, barely escaping with his life.
He wasn’t “taken” anywhere — he ran from fire.
And Jesus used Lot as an example of God preserving the righteous through judgment, not removing them beforehand.

Acts 1?
Jesus ascended — He didn’t rapture the Church.
That’s a category error.
And the angels said He will return the same way He left — once, visibly, from the clouds.
They didn’t say He’d come secretly seven years earlier to scoop up a hidden group.

The so-called ‘Escape Verses’?

Let me guess — Luke 21:36?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...”

That’s not about vanishing into the clouds.
It’s about being spiritually prepared to endure and stand before the Son of Man.
Same as Matthew 24:13 —

“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”

You keep turning warnings about faithfulness into excuses for escapism.

“Worthy Ones Taken Pretrib”?

Where’s the verse?
Where does Jesus say “those counted worthy will be taken before the tribulation begins”?

You won’t find it — because it doesn’t exist.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect...” — Matthew 24:29–31

That’s your timeline — right there in red letters.
AFTER.

You don’t get to quote Jesus out of context in five places and ignore the one spot where He clearly lays out the timing.

Bottom line:
You’re not teaching what Jesus said.
You’re teaching what Scofield said Jesus meant.

There’s not a single verse that describes a secret pretrib rapture of the Church.
There’s not a single verse that creates a second group of "tribulation saints."
There’s not a single verse where Jesus “takes the worthy away” and leaves others behind to earn salvation 2.0.

What there is —
is a clear teaching of endurance, judgment, and final gathering after tribulation.
That’s what Jesus, Paul, and the early Church taught.

And until you can quote something other than Scofield-filtered allegory,
your doctrine’s not just wrong —
it’s deception.

Case still closed.

QUOTE
"Acts 1?
Jesus ascended — He didn’t rapture the Church.
That’s a category error.
And the angels said He will return the same way He left — once, visibly, from the clouds.
They didn’t say He’d come secretly seven years earlier to scoop up a hidden group.

Now let's look at it instead of omitting the entire event.

Your dilemma is "like manner"

Does it fit pretrib rapture?
A profound YES IT DOES PERFECTLY.

Does it fit your doctrine?
A profound :NOT IN ANY WAY.

a solo Jesus DEPARTS.
The setting fits pretribulation rapture .

The second coming is on white horses with millions of saints blackening the sky IN A WARRIOR ARMY SETTING.

The second coming is in power and glory.

So yet another dilemma , for your doctrine that Scofield can't rescue you.

Acts one is a true thorn in any hope of a postrib doctrine.
You can't wiggle out of it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You’re not listening.

No one said “Jews don’t exist.”
I said modern Jewish identity is not synonymous with Biblical Israel.
There’s a difference between religious converts and covenant lineage —
and you keep pretending those are the same thing just because persecution exists.

Let me help you out:
Satan doesn’t target people because of ethnicity.
He targets people because of truth.
Because of Christ.

“They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony...” — Revelation 12:11

You think Satan is attacking secular, Christ-rejecting Zionists because they’re God's chosen people?
No — he's attacking because he wants chaos, division, and to keep the world confused about who God's people actually are:
those in Christ.

Jesus said:
“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.” — John 8:39
“If God were your Father, you would love Me.” — John 8:42

But He said to them:

“You are of your father, the devil...” — John 8:44

He was speaking to Jews, by ethnicity — and He still rejected their claim to divine status because they rejected Him.

So no — being hated by the world does not confirm you’re God’s chosen.
If that were the case, every persecuted cult, tribe, and regime could make the same claim.

“In Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:28–29

That is the real Israel.

So maybe someone should send Satan a memo:
The people of God aren’t defined by a bloodline anymore.
They’re defined by the blood of Christ.
And Zionist nationalism has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

You’re not listening.

No one said “Jews don’t exist.”
I said modern Jewish identity is not synonymous with Biblical Israel.
There’s a difference between religious converts and covenant lineage —
and you keep pretending those are the same thing just because persecution exists.

Let me help you out:
Satan doesn’t target people because of ethnicity.
He targets people because of truth.
Because of Christ.

“They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony...” — Revelation 12:11

You think Satan is attacking secular, Christ-rejecting Zionists because they’re God's chosen people?
No — he's attacking because he wants chaos, division, and to keep the world confused about who God's people actually are:
those in Christ.

Jesus said:
“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.” — John 8:39
“If God were your Father, you would love Me.” — John 8:42

But He said to them:

“You are of your father, the devil...” — John 8:44

He was speaking to Jews, by ethnicity — and He still rejected their claim to divine status because they rejected Him.

So no — being hated by the world does not confirm you’re God’s chosen.
If that were the case, every persecuted cult, tribe, and regime could make the same claim.

“In Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:28–29

That is the real Israel.

So maybe someone should send Satan a memo:
The people of God aren’t defined by a bloodline anymore.
They’re defined by the blood of Christ.
And Zionist nationalism has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

The challenge to all, is who is grafted BACK IN in romans 9-11.

Why don't any of you repl theos ever read romans?

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Quote
"Revelation 14 doesn’t support pre-trib — it obliterates it."

Rev 14 is a rapture of Jews.
Your postrib doctrine has a flaw of impossibility.
What Rev 14 does is it destroys your doctrines " one coming"

When acts 1 '" like manner", and Rev 14 gathering with Jesus on a cloud,and then the 2 comings of mat 24 are combined, that is 3 indisputable witnesses against your doctrine.

What happened is, is that man formulated that doctrine, and it's so poorly thought out that most anybody with a bible can see that it's a dead end.

You said Revelation 14 is a rapture of Jews.
No. Revelation 14 is a symbolic vision of the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers, yes — but they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb (v.1), not flying off into the sky.
That’s earthly, not heavenly.
And the rest of Revelation 14 includes harvest imagery, not harpazo language.
Not one word in that chapter describes the Church being “caught up” into heaven.
You’re cramming Scofield into apocalyptic poetry like it’s a jigsaw puzzle that only fits with a chainsaw.

“Acts 1 ‘like manner’, Rev 14 cloud, Matt 24 = 3 witnesses”

Three witnesses to what? That clouds exist?

“Like manner” in Acts 1:11 simply means Jesus returns bodily and visibly — not secretly and in phases.
“This same Jesus… will come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:11

He went up once, and He’s coming back once — not halfway, not in a vapor, not in two separate events with a seven-year gap.

Here's your problem:
You're treating symbolic visions, apocalyptic metaphors, and red-letter time markers as if they're all interchangeable.

You say:
“Rev 14 destroys your doctrine of one coming.”

No — what destroys your view is Jesus’ own words:

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

He didn’t say:

“Before the tribulation…”

“In a secret phase…”

“Only the Gentile church will go, then the Jews later…”

He said AFTER.
He said ONE gathering.
And He said it in plain language, not code.

Your entire model breaks down because you’re adding extra comings the Bible never mentions.

You say:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”

Yes, you do — functionally.
You have:

1. One coming before the tribulation (secret rapture)

2. Another coming after the tribulation (visible second coming)

3. And now a “cloud coming” in Rev 14 for Jews??

That’s three comings.
Jesus said He’s coming back once — visibly, loudly, with angels, fire, and finality.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him…” — Matthew 25:31

That’s it. That’s the return.
There’s no footnote that says “unless you’re Scofield.”

“Most anybody with a Bible can see it’s a dead end.”

You’re right.
Anyone with a Bible — who reads the actual words instead of a dispensational flowchart — sees that your system is built on forced gaps, invisible returns, and theological duct tape.

So let’s keep it simple:

Noah wasn’t raptured. He was left on Earth.

Jesus said “after the tribulation.” Not before.

There is one return of Christ. Not one and a half.

Revelation 14 is not a rapture text. It’s a symbolic harvest, not an airlift.

Your system only works if we ignore Jesus’ timeline and replace it with Scofield’s fantasy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You said Revelation 14 is a rapture of Jews.
No. Revelation 14 is a symbolic vision of the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers, yes — but they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb (v.1), not flying off into the sky.
That’s earthly, not heavenly.
And the rest of Revelation 14 includes harvest imagery, not harpazo language.
Not one word in that chapter describes the Church being “caught up” into heaven.
You’re cramming Scofield into apocalyptic poetry like it’s a jigsaw puzzle that only fits with a chainsaw.

“Acts 1 ‘like manner’, Rev 14 cloud, Matt 24 = 3 witnesses”

Three witnesses to what? That clouds exist?

“Like manner” in Acts 1:11 simply means Jesus returns bodily and visibly — not secretly and in phases.
“This same Jesus… will come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:11

He went up once, and He’s coming back once — not halfway, not in a vapor, not in two separate events with a seven-year gap.

Here's your problem:
You're treating symbolic visions, apocalyptic metaphors, and red-letter time markers as if they're all interchangeable.

You say:
“Rev 14 destroys your doctrine of one coming.”

No — what destroys your view is Jesus’ own words:

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

He didn’t say:

“Before the tribulation…”

“In a secret phase…”

“Only the Gentile church will go, then the Jews later…”

He said AFTER.
He said ONE gathering.
And He said it in plain language, not code.

Your entire model breaks down because you’re adding extra comings the Bible never mentions.

You say:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”

Yes, you do — functionally.
You have:

1. One coming before the tribulation (secret rapture)

2. Another coming after the tribulation (visible second coming)

3. And now a “cloud coming” in Rev 14 for Jews??

That’s three comings.
Jesus said He’s coming back once — visibly, loudly, with angels, fire, and finality.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him…” — Matthew 25:31

That’s it. That’s the return.
There’s no footnote that says “unless you’re Scofield.”

“Most anybody with a Bible can see it’s a dead end.”

You’re right.
Anyone with a Bible — who reads the actual words instead of a dispensational flowchart — sees that your system is built on forced gaps, invisible returns, and theological duct tape.

So let’s keep it simple:

Noah wasn’t raptured. He was left on Earth.

Jesus said “after the tribulation.” Not before.

There is one return of Christ. Not one and a half.

Revelation 14 is not a rapture text. It’s a symbolic harvest, not an airlift.

Your system only works if we ignore Jesus’ timeline and replace it with Scofield’s fantasy.

You said Revelation 14 is a rapture of Jews.
No. Revelation 14 is a symbolic vision of the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers, yes — but they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb (v.1), not flying off into the sky.
That’s earthly, not heavenly.
And the rest of Revelation 14 includes harvest imagery, not harpazo language.
Not one word in that chapter describes the Church being “caught up” into heaven.

Revelation 14 is not a rapture text. It’s a symbolic harvest, not an airlift.

First of all you have to understand harvest when you see the term first fruits it automatically refers to harvest. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection and the ascension to heaven. When you see the harvest of the barley and the wheat that is the gentile church. The Jewish harvest is the fruit harvest. The 144,000 are described as first fruits. We see these first fruits in heaven at the beginning of revelation chapter 14 the next harvest is in verse 14 and it is the main harvest and it is a Jewish harvest. We see 144,000 ethnic Jews out of the 12 tribes declared as first fruits, and I don't know why that gets completely rearranged and omitted and therefore erroneous assumptions come in and a lack of discernment that main harvest always follows first fruits 100% of the time
secondly you have to understand that in revelation chapter 14 versus one through 5 we see that the 144,000 are in heaven before the throne of God. And by the way there's 2 mount zions one in heaven and one on earth. What I would also add that I never said revelation chapter 14 in any of it has anything to do with the rapture of the church. It does not. But it completely and totally destroys the post river theory and error of 1 coming. Because revelation 14 verse 14 is not the same coming as revelation 19 on the white horses and neither is it the coming of acts 1 like manner and neither is it first thessalonians chapter 4 the rapture of the church, it is a totally different dynamic and it is the rapture of the Jews I highly recommend you read Romans and try real hard to understand that the Jewish people are grafted back in. And that is exactly what you're saying in revelation 14, and exactly why the tribulation is a tool to bring the Jewish people back to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. You really need to study more. You got some basic things wrong and they spill over into other areas of your understanding

“Acts 1 ‘like manner’, Rev 14 cloud, Matt 24 = 3 witnesses”

Three witnesses to what? That clouds exist?

Those verses describe 3 completely separate comings, that are declared by Jesus. There's two comings in Matthew 24 and there's one coming of the Jews in revelation 14 and then we have the coming for the church in first thessalonians 4. So yes we see that you have all of that wrong

“Like manner” in Acts 1:11 simply means Jesus returns bodily and visibly — not secretly and in phases.
“This same Jesus… will come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:11

no you got that completely messed up and all mixed up into some kind of
post tribulation milkshake
and into the pasture
and then say he will return in like manner
i would not expect a normal person to understand me to B e conveying "he's a horse and he's got 4 legs"
"LIKE MANNER" already recognizes he has a body.
See how you twisted "like manner"?

webster's;
MAN'NER, noun [Latin manus, the hand.]
1. Form; method; way of performing or executing.
Find thou the manner and the means prepare.
2. Custom; habitual practice.
Show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. This will be the manner of the king. 1 Samuel 8:9.
Paul, as his manner was--Acts 17:2.

Manner is the setting, his demeanor, his method, the same circunstances and entourage or lack of entourage.
it's so simple A child can understand it and yet you've got it all messed up.

He went up once, and He’s coming back once — not halfway, not in a vapor, not in two separate events with a seven-year gap.

well there you go again you got that wrong also
he was high in the sky when the angels told the disciples that
but yes thank you for pointing out that "like manner" would be up in the sky
in other words you just pointed out Jesus actually does not touch earth at the rapture!
thank you for that i will use that in the future

Here's your problem:
You're treating symbolic visions, apocalyptic metaphors, and red-letter time markers as if they're all interchangeable.

i am not the one incorrectly labeling rev14 ,the entire chapter, as all symbolic

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

we both believe Jesus returns after the tribulation, but the difference is
you insert a rapture of the church ,where there is none in revelation chapter 19 ( the white horse second coming)
yes we can all see that after the tribulation angels gather saints already in heaven, from heaven,
after the tribulation,
Jesus is depicting revelation 19, which is after the tribulation, which is the white horse coming,
so it makes perfect sense that the gathering after the tribulation is in heaven and by angels.
so yes after the tribulation the angels gathered the elect in heaven
that is where they are ,previously raptured, before the tribulation

He didn’t say:

“Before the tribulation…”

re read mat 24.
"before the flood"
Ahem....,maybe replace it with your PowerPoint "after"
you do not seem to be teachable
in what the word "before" means

“In a secret phase…”

Only post tribulation rapture adherence use "secret"
i know i know it is in the anti pre tribulation rapture workbook.

“Only the Gentile church will go, then the Jews later…”

He said AFTER.
He said ONE gathering.
And He said it in plain language, not code.

Your entire model breaks down because you’re adding extra comings the Bible never mentions.

you should ask yourself why no one in the post tribulation doctrine has ever been able to unpack the 10 virgin parable or revelation 14
You say:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”

Yes, you do — functionally.
You have:

1. One coming before the tribulation (secret rapture)

2. Another coming after the tribulation (visible second coming)

3. And now a “cloud coming” in Rev 14 for Jews??

Note "for the church."
Neither revelation 14, nor revelation 19, is a coming for the church.

 

[David in NJ]

You said Revelation 14 is a rapture of Jews.
No. Revelation 14 is a symbolic vision of the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers, yes — but they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb (v.1), not flying off into the sky.
That’s earthly, not heavenly.
And the rest of Revelation 14 includes harvest imagery, not harpazo language.
Not one word in that chapter describes the Church being “caught up” into heaven.
You’re cramming Scofield into apocalyptic poetry like it’s a jigsaw puzzle that only fits with a chainsaw.

“Acts 1 ‘like manner’, Rev 14 cloud, Matt 24 = 3 witnesses”

Three witnesses to what? That clouds exist?

“Like manner” in Acts 1:11 simply means Jesus returns bodily and visibly — not secretly and in phases.
“This same Jesus… will come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:11

He went up once, and He’s coming back once — not halfway, not in a vapor, not in two separate events with a seven-year gap.

Here's your problem:
You're treating symbolic visions, apocalyptic metaphors, and red-letter time markers as if they're all interchangeable.

You say:
“Rev 14 destroys your doctrine of one coming.”

No — what destroys your view is Jesus’ own words:

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

He didn’t say:

“Before the tribulation…”

“In a secret phase…”

“Only the Gentile church will go, then the Jews later…”

He said AFTER.
He said ONE gathering.
And He said it in plain language, not code.

Your entire model breaks down because you’re adding extra comings the Bible never mentions.

You say:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”

Yes, you do — functionally.
You have:

1. One coming before the tribulation (secret rapture)

2. Another coming after the tribulation (visible second coming)

3. And now a “cloud coming” in Rev 14 for Jews??

That’s three comings.
Jesus said He’s coming back once — visibly, loudly, with angels, fire, and finality.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him…” — Matthew 25:31

That’s it. That’s the return.
There’s no footnote that says “unless you’re Scofield.”

“Most anybody with a Bible can see it’s a dead end.”

You’re right.
Anyone with a Bible — who reads the actual words instead of a dispensational flowchart — sees that your system is built on forced gaps, invisible returns, and theological duct tape.

So let’s keep it simple:

Noah wasn’t raptured. He was left on Earth.

Jesus said “after the tribulation.” Not before.

There is one return of Christ. Not one and a half.

Revelation 14 is not a rapture text. It’s a symbolic harvest, not an airlift.

Your system only works if we ignore Jesus’ timeline and replace it with Scofield’s fantasy.

144k is symbolic of the Body of Christ = Jew & Gentile

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

First of all you have to understand harvest when you see the term first fruits it automatically refers to harvest. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection and the ascension to heaven. When you see the harvest of the barley and the wheat that is the gentile church. The Jewish harvest is the fruit harvest. The 144,000 are described as first fruits. We see these first fruits in heaven at the beginning of revelation chapter 14 the next harvest is in verse 14 and it is the main harvest and it is a Jewish harvest. We see 144,000 ethnic Jews out of the 12 tribes declared as first fruits, and I don't know why that gets completely rearranged and omitted and therefore erroneous assumptions come in and a lack of discernment that main harvest always follows first fruits 100% of the time
secondly you have to understand that in revelation chapter 14 versus one through 5 we see that the 144,000 are in heaven before the throne of God. And by the way there's 2 mount zions one in heaven and one on earth. What I would also add that I never said revelation chapter 14 in any of it has anything to do with the rapture of the church. It does not. But it completely and totally destroys the post river theory and error of 1 coming. Because revelation 14 verse 14 is not the same coming as revelation 19 on the white horses and neither is it the coming of acts 1 like manner and neither is it first thessalonians chapter 4 the rapture of the church, it is a totally different dynamic and it is the rapture of the Jews I highly recommend you read Romans and try real hard to understand that the Jewish people are grafted back in. And that is exactly what you're saying in revelation 14, and exactly why the tribulation is a tool to bring the Jewish people back to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. You really need to study more. You got some basic things wrong and they spill over into other areas of your understanding


Those verses describe 3 completely separate comings, that are declared by Jesus. There's two comings in Matthew 24 and there's one coming of the Jews in revelation 14 and then we have the coming for the church in first thessalonians 4. So yes we see that you have all of that wrong


no you got that completely messed up and all mixed up into some kind of
post tribulation milkshake
and into the pasture
and then say he will return in like manner
i would not expect a normal person to understand me to B e conveying "he's a horse and he's got 4 legs"
"LIKE MANNER" already recognizes he has a body.
See how you twisted "like manner"?

webster's;
MAN'NER, noun [Latin manus, the hand.]
1. Form; method; way of performing or executing.
Find thou the manner and the means prepare.
2. Custom; habitual practice.
Show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. This will be the manner of the king. 1 Samuel 8:9.
Paul, as his manner was--Acts 17:2.

Manner is the setting, his demeanor, his method, the same circunstances and entourage or lack of entourage.
it's so simple A child can understand it and yet you've got it all messed up.



well there you go again you got that wrong also
he was high in the sky when the angels told the disciples that
but yes thank you for pointing out that "like manner" would be up in the sky
in other words you just pointed out Jesus actually does not touch earth at the rapture!
thank you for that i will use that in the future



i am not the one incorrectly labeling rev14 ,the entire chapter, as all symbolic



we both believe Jesus returns after the tribulation, but the difference is
you insert a rapture of the church ,where there is none in revelation chapter 19 ( the white horse second coming)
yes we can all see that after the tribulation angels gather saints already in heaven, from heaven,
after the tribulation,
Jesus is depicting revelation 19, which is after the tribulation, which is the white horse coming,
so it makes perfect sense that the gathering after the tribulation is in heaven and by angels.
so yes after the tribulation the angels gathered the elect in heaven
that is where they are ,previously raptured, before the tribulation


re read mat 24.
"before the flood"
Ahem....,maybe replace it with your PowerPoint "after"
you do not seem to be teachable
in what the word "before" means

Only post tribulation rapture adherence use "secret"
i know i know it is in the anti pre tribulation rapture workbook.


you should ask yourself why no one in the post tribulation doctrine has ever been able to unpack the 10 virgin parable or revelation 14
You say:


Note "for the church."
Neither revelation 14, nor revelation 19, is a coming for the church.

You’ve now created at least four comings of Christ:

1. Rapture of the Church (1 Thess. 4)

2. “Cloud coming” for Jews (Rev. 14)

3. Second coming on white horses (Rev. 19)

4. “Acts 1:11 style” mystery phase with clouds and entourage?

That’s not theology — that’s fan fiction with Scofield footnotes.

Jesus: “Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:29–31)
You: “Well, actually there are several different kinds of clouds…”

You can redefine "like manner" all day, but the angels didn’t say, “He will return in multiple prophetic layers, depending on which chart you downloaded.” They said He will return as you saw Him go — once, visibly, from the sky.

Also, Revelation 14 isn’t a rapture.
It’s a harvest metaphor — not a harpazo moment, not a flight path, not a Scofield-style boarding call.

You keep inserting phantom raptures into texts that don’t say rapture, then claim we’re the ones “missing it.”
Your system falls apart because it adds extra comings, forces metaphors into timelines, and ignores the one verse you keep dancing around:

He said AFTER.

You can invent “fruit harvests” and spiritual weather patterns all you want —
but there is no verse, not one, that says Jesus returns in phases for different groups.

There’s one return.
One resurrection.
One King.

And unless you’re ready to show me one verse where Jesus says He’s coming twice for two separate peoples,
you’re not teaching Scripture — you’re defending and preaching Scofield blasphemy.

 

[David in NJ]

You’ve now created at least four comings of Christ:

1. Rapture of the Church (1 Thess. 4)

2. “Cloud coming” for Jews (Rev. 14)

3. Second coming on white horses (Rev. 19)

4. “Acts 1:11 style” mystery phase with clouds and entourage?

That’s not theology — that’s fan fiction with Scofield footnotes.

Jesus: “Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:29–31)
You: “Well, actually there are several different kinds of clouds…”

You can redefine "like manner" all day, but the angels didn’t say, “He will return in multiple prophetic layers, depending on which chart you downloaded.” They said He will return as you saw Him go — once, visibly, from the sky.

Also, Revelation 14 isn’t a rapture.
It’s a harvest metaphor — not a harpazo moment, not a flight path, not a Scofield-style boarding call.

You keep inserting phantom raptures into texts that don’t say rapture, then claim we’re the ones “missing it.”
Your system falls apart because it adds extra comings, forces metaphors into timelines, and ignores the one verse you keep dancing around:

He said AFTER.

You can invent “fruit harvests” and spiritual weather patterns all you want —
but there is no verse, not one, that says Jesus returns in phases for different groups.

There’s one return.
One resurrection.
One King.

And unless you’re ready to show me one verse where Jesus says He’s coming twice for two separate peoples,
you’re not teaching Scripture — you’re defending and preaching Scofield blasphemy.

He said AFTER.

Yes, HE did.

@rebuilder 454 - Why are you playing the devil's advocate by advocating against what the LORD specifically Said ???

English Standard Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Berean Standard Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

Berean Literal Bible
And immediately after the tribulation of those days: 'The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.'

King James Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

New King James Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

New American Standard Bible
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

NASB 1995
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.