IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Then Jesus will really be a heretic for sure.

Lol

 

[keithr]

Here is a few out of over 20 verses in direct conflict with your understanding.

Calling somebody a hypocrite is not calling them names or deliberately insulting them, it's just plainly telling them what they are (a dictionary definition is "A person who pretends to be what he or she is not; specif., one who pretends to be pious, virtuous, etc. without really being so").

Matt 12
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:33-34 (WEB):

(33) “Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by its fruit.​

(34) You offspring of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.​

Again, calling the Pharisees the "offspring of vipers" was simply Jesus firmly and bluntly pointing out that they were corrupt and evil. As Barnes' Notes says:

O generation of vipers! - Christ here applies the argument which he had suggested in the previous verse. They were a wicked race; like poisonous reptiles, with a corrupt and evil nature. They could not be expected to speak good things - that is, to speak favorably of him and his works. As the bad fruit of a tree was the proper effect of its “nature,” so were their words about him and his works the proper effect of their nature. The “abundance” or fullness of the “heart” produced the words of the lips. “Vipers” are a poisonous kind of serpents, not often a yard long, and about an inch thick, having a flat head. The males have two large teeth, through which a most deadly poison is thrown into the wound made by the bite. They are an emblem of malignity and mischief. These were strong expressions to be used by the meek and lowly Jesus; but they were not the effect of anger and malice; they were a declaration of the true character of the people with whom he was conversing - a declaration most justly deserved.​

You coddle a man that is ignorant of his Bible, and calls me a heretic while he stands ignorantly "correcting" me.
He refuses to investigate the "paradise taken to heaven" dynamic, and when I push back at his rank meanness, you come along and defend the lies.

My intention is only to share the truth, to the best of my knowledge and ability. None of us can be right all the time and know everything, and we can all learn something from others sometimes. I just happen to agree that none of the patriarchs came out of their graves just after Jesus' death, for the reasons I mentioned. I just shared that reasoning to try and help others understand the scriptues better. I am not trying to pick sides and say that everything one says is right or wrong. I don't care who is right or wrong, I'm just interested in understanding God's word in the Bible, and I try to join in the discussions with a polite, respectful and friendly manner.

 

[keithr]

David said " you will not leave my soul in sheole"
Referring to his revelation on paradise.

David's body has decayed. Peter explained that David was prophetically referring to the coming Messiah - Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.​

(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;​

(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.​

(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

Look, it WAS NOT JUST the patriarchs in paradise.

Nobody is in paradise. The dead are in their graves - in sheol/hades. Everybody remains there until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection (after Jesus) has not happened yet.

The REASON for paradise was because those patriachs ( patriarchs meaning those that died in faith BEFORE US. They are patriarchs using the term losely) had DIED IN FAITH. JESUS HAD NOT yet been sacrificed.
They were not in heaven, because the PAYMENT HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.
Jesus went to paradise, preached the gospel, raised them from the dead, and TOOK THEM TO HEAVEN.

The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WEB):

(18) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;​

(19) in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

Those spirits were not humans, they were the fallen angels, as Peter explained earlier in his letter, and they are not in sheol (nor paradise) but another place - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

This was confirmed by Judes - Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

That study is unbelievably basic.
WE learned this back in the 70's.

Maybe you were not taught the truth about that!

 

[Fred J]

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

Bravo Keithr!

May GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help me to keep a copy of what you've wrote in my mind.

Let GOD be the truth and man a liar, we want GOD to win and man to lose, and that's the beginning of wisdom.

GOD desire not to punish but desire people repent from their sins.

Beloved, choose a trusted brethren, share each other's sins and pray for one another.

'Lawlessness shall increase and people will be going to and fro, haughty, lover of themselves, unpeaceable etc.

This coming to pass sign given by our Lord Jesus Christ, can be very challenging for us and for our faith.

Jesus said, 'Pray to GOD that HE helps us escape tribulation.'

We're not doing this for reputation or recognition, but for the word of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

The Holy Bible is an amazing and delightful book, to HIS children, am not worthy, HE reveals all the mysteries and hidden mysteries within. (2Timothy3:16&17)

But to those who are not HIS children, HE reveals the book to be 'folly' and 'corrupted'.

Keep up the good fight for the Kingdom of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

 

[Fred J]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Readers, do you believe that, 'Jesus preached to those(souls) that died in the flood'??

1 Peter 3:
19. By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of GOD waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Genesis 6:
2. That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My Spirit(Holy Ghost) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Hebrews 1:
13. But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on MY right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Therefore, aren't they the sons of GOD/angels/spirits which were disobedient in the days of Noah, in prison??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Fred J]

But 'rebuilder 454' disputes and quoted, that the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth, are FIRSTFRUIT'S' together with Jesus in the resurrection??

The FIRSTFRUITS ARE Jesus and the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth.

Looks like readers are finding difficulty to straighten this mysterious claim of rebuilder 454.

His claim corresponds with those rose from their grave as Christ resurrected on the third day.

Therefore this debunks and rule out the scripture that reads, Christ is the firstfruit/firstborn from the dead and none other?? (Colossians 1:18)

No!!

Always GOD is the truth and man a liar, and a heretic who would preach another gospel besides the one the Apostles preached and is written.

Matthew 27:
53. And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Therefore to conclude, those who came out of their graves are 'no firstfruits'.

1 John 4:
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of GOD: he that knoweth GOD heareth us; he that is not of GOD heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

QUOTE
"""However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!"""

It is bad you believe that.

Can you be precise - what is bad? That I believe they died again? Well there is nobody living today that is nearly 2,000 years old, so I'm sure they did die!

Or were you referring to Paul's point that the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first? That requires a longer explanation!

It takes all of the merit of Jesus' sacrifice to redeem even just one man, so all of the merit is required to redeem all Christians. But Christians are under a covenant of sacrifice, following in Jesus' footsteps, and they must sacrifice their lives too, as Jesus did, which is why all Christians will die, even after they have been redeemed. It is only after the completed Church have all died (at the first resurrection and rapture) that the merit of Jesus' sacrifice can be returned in full and then applied to the rest of mankind. That is why nobody can be redeemed and made perfect until after the first resurrection of the Church.

Romans 12:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.​

Psalms 50:5 (WEB):

5) “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”​

Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all {faithful people in Old Testament times}, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

There were two sacrifices in the Old Testament types, made on the Day of Atonement - a bull, representing the sacrifice of Jesus, and a goat, representing the sacrifice of the body members of Christ (Christians). On that day the High Priest would provide a young bullock as a sin offering, and the people of Israel would provide two young goats for a sin offering. The High Priest would sacrifice the bullock for himself and for his household. The death of the bullock typified the death of Jesus, who offered up himself as a sin offering. Jesus was both the anointed High Priest of God and the sacrifice. In the type the High Priest applies the merit of his sacrifice (by sprinkling the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat) for himself and his household as atonement for sins, where he himself represented Jesus and his household (the tribe of Levi - priests and servants of the priests) represented the Church (priests) and the Great Multitude of believers who come out of the Great Tribulation (servants of the priests). The name Levi means “joined to” (Genesis 29:34), just as the Church will be joined to Jesus as his bride.

In the antitype the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice, his own blood, is applied to the believers in Jesus, who will become the antitypical Royal Priesthood (the Church) and servants of the “household of faith”. Note that the whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is applied to the believers in Christ only – it is not applied to the rest of the world. Jesus’ sacrifice was a ransom for all, but it has not yet been applied to all - “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6).

After the priest sacrificed the bullock he then sacrificed one of the goats in the same way – the bullock and the goat were treated alike, with the blood of the goat also being sprinkled on the mercy seat. Note that these are two distinct sin-offering sacrifices – the bullock, supplied by the priest, and the goat, supplied by the people. In the antitype during this Gospel Age there are also two sin-offerings – Jesus and his Church, his Body. The bullock was sacrificed as a sin offering for the priest and his household, whereas the goat was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people. The bullock represented Jesus’ sacrifice of his own life, whereas the goat represents the sacrifice of the Church – the sacrifice of our lives. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice has been applied to the Church (the antitypical Royal Priesthood and household of faith), and the Church must now follow Jesus’ example and sacrifice their lives also. This is the Covenant of Sacrifice that we make when we become baptised into Jesus’ death. We have had Jesus’ sacrificial merit applied to us, so that our sins are atoned for and we are justified and entitled to eternal life as perfect humans. However, we only receive this justification on condition that we covenant to sacrifice that right to life, just as our Lord Jesus sacrificed his right to eternal life as a human. In the type the sacrifice of the goat was for the people (the Israelites), and in the antitype the sacrifice of the Church’s right to human life is a sacrifice for the people - the rest of humankind.

The whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice was applied to the Church, so the Church must sacrifice their lives in order that the merit may be returned and applied to the rest of mankind. This is an ongoing process during the Gospel Age. At the end of the Gospel Age all of the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice will have been returned so that it can then be applied to the rest of mankind. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is appropriated to the Church, the elect, in order that we can have the privilege of joining our Lord Jesus as his “members”, to “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) and so that we will be entitled to be sharers in Jesus’ inheritance. As sharers of his sacrifice we enable his merit to be passed on to natural Israel and the world through the New Covenant.

Hence Paul wrote of the faithful Old Testament Israelites, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40). He is saying that the faithful Old Testament Israelites would receive a “better resurrection” (verse 35) as a result of their faithfulness, that is they would be resurrected as perfect human beings immediately, rather than being raised still imperfect and then having to be restored to perfection during Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. However, they, and the rest of mankind, will have to wait until all of the Church has completed their sacrifice before Jesus’ sacrificial merit can be applied to them and they can be resurrected.

The apostle Paul, when speaking of the animal sacrifices and the New Covenant, said, “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). These “better sacrifices” are the sacrifice of Jesus, the Christ Head, and the members of his Church, the Christ Body. The bullock and goat were the only animal sacrifices that were burnt outside of the camp (symbolising rejection by the world), hence Paul said, “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach” (Hebrews 13:12-13).

Note that two goats were supplied by the people, and one of them was chosen for sacrifice by casting lots. This indicated that God does not arbitrarily choose which consecrated saints are to become members of the body of Christ – it is up to us to make our calling and election sure. The Lord’s goat lays down its life sacrificially, willingly, while the other goat becomes the scapegoat and is not sacrificed but it is sent into the wilderness to die unwillingly. The scapegoat is a type of the consecrated Christians who fail to fulfil the conditions of their sacrifice. These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ.

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion [partnership or participation] of the blood of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16).

 

[Taken]

Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah.He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." (Mat. 24:39).

The days of Noah…does reveal MUCH about The PEOPLE….other than Noah.

However…
The advantageous Knowledge IS:
About Noah himself…NOT About the PEOPLE…other than Noah (and his family.)

Noah……………... Believed.
Noah’s Acts…… Revealed his Belief, to God.
God directed … Noah Listened
Noah…………….. Obeyed.

No indication it had rained, before the flood.
No indication Noah built the ARK near a water source.
(Likely Noah was mocked, per reference to last days to come and days of the flood.
* 2 Pet 3: 3-6.)

Days of Noah:
Entered the ARK, 7 Days BEFORE, First drop of Rain.
* Gen 7:4

God Closed The Door to the Ark…No others Allowed To Enter.
* Gen 7:16

They IN the ARK, raised UP Above the Face of the Earth.
* Gen 7:17

Rain and Water from underground Seas Increase exponentially upon the face of the Earth, Killing Life ( outside of the ARK ; upon the face of the Earth).

As in the Days of Noah…
Men IN the ARK of Salvation (ie. IN CHRIST)…Shall AS Noah for an amount of 7, Be Lift UP Above the Face of the Earth, and the Door Closed.

The Lifting UP:
1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

WHO Risen up ?
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

7 Significance:
Rev 11:
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Ie. 1,260 days = 3.5 years
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Ie. 1,260 days = 3.5 years
3.5 + 3.5 = 7.

Door shut to Whom and Why.
Matthew 7: 21 - 27
(Christ Rejectors. Peace and Safety prepared exclusively For those IN Christ).

* “Noah ALIVE Returned TO Earth”

* “So Also shall they IN Christ Return TO Earth Alive”.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lords “com-ING”… and “RETURN”… are TWO DIFFERENT meanings, manifestations, regarding the END of Days Prophecy and Events.

The Rapture, ie. The Catch-ING Up (Above the face of the Earth, while Chaos, Tribulations, Wrath From Heaven Comes down UPON the whole Earth and it’s inhabitants…as IN the days of Noah)…was NOT prepared FOR those “NOT IN CHRIST”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can you be precise - what is bad? That I believe they died again? Well there is nobody living today that is nearly 2,000 years old, so I'm sure they did die!

Or were you referring to Paul's point that the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first? That requires a longer explanation!

It takes all of the merit of Jesus' sacrifice to redeem even just one man, so all of the merit is required to redeem all Christians. But Christians are under a covenant of sacrifice, following in Jesus' footsteps, and they must sacrifice their lives too, as Jesus did, which is why all Christians will die, even after they have been redeemed. It is only after the completed Church have all died (at the first resurrection and rapture) that the merit of Jesus' sacrifice can be returned in full and then applied to the rest of mankind. That is why nobody can be redeemed and made perfect until after the first resurrection of the Church.

Romans 12:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.​

Psalms 50:5 (WEB):

5) “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”​

Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all {faithful people in Old Testament times}, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

There were two sacrifices in the Old Testament types, made on the Day of Atonement - a bull, representing the sacrifice of Jesus, and a goat, representing the sacrifice of the body members of Christ (Christians). On that day the High Priest would provide a young bullock as a sin offering, and the people of Israel would provide two young goats for a sin offering. The High Priest would sacrifice the bullock for himself and for his household. The death of the bullock typified the death of Jesus, who offered up himself as a sin offering. Jesus was both the anointed High Priest of God and the sacrifice. In the type the High Priest applies the merit of his sacrifice (by sprinkling the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat) for himself and his household as atonement for sins, where he himself represented Jesus and his household (the tribe of Levi - priests and servants of the priests) represented the Church (priests) and the Great Multitude of believers who come out of the Great Tribulation (servants of the priests). The name Levi means “joined to” (Genesis 29:34), just as the Church will be joined to Jesus as his bride.



The whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice was applied to the Church, so the Church must sacrifice their lives in order that the merit may be returned and applied to the rest of mankind. This is an ongoing process during the Gospel Age. At the end of the Gospel Age all of the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice will have been returned so that it can then be applied to the rest of mankind. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is appropriated to the Church, the elect, in order that we can have the privilege of joining our Lord Jesus as his “members”, to “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) and so that we will be entitled to be sharers in Jesus’ inheritance. As sharers of his sacrifice we enable his merit to be passed on to natural Israel and the world through the New Covenant.

Hence Paul wrote of the faithful Old Testament Israelites, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40). He is saying that the faithful Old Testament Israelites would receive a “better resurrection” (verse 35) as a result of their faithfulness, that is they would be resurrected as perfect human beings immediately, rather than being raised still imperfect and then having to be restored to perfection during Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. However, they, and the rest of mankind, will have to wait until all of the Church has completed their sacrifice before Jesus’ sacrificial merit can be applied to them and they can be resurrected.

The apostle Paul, when speaking of the animal sacrifices and the New Covenant, said, “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). These “better sacrifices” are the sacrifice of Jesus, the Christ Head, and the members of his Church, the Christ Body. The bullock and goat were the only animal sacrifices that were burnt outside of the camp (symbolising rejection by the world), hence Paul said, “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach” (Hebrews 13:12-13).

Note that two goats were supplied by the people, and one of them was chosen for sacrifice by casting lots. This indicated that God does not arbitrarily choose which consecrated saints are to become members of the body of Christ – it is up to us to make our calling and election sure. The Lord’s goat lays down its life sacrificially, willingly, while the other goat becomes the scapegoat and is not sacrificed but it is sent into the wilderness to die unwillingly. The scapegoat is a type of the consecrated Christians who fail to fulfil the conditions of their sacrifice. These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ.

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion [partnership or participation] of the blood of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16).

QUOTE
""". These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ."""

Where are you getting that from.?

Those in paradise that Jesus descended to and preached the Gospel were resurrected and went to heaven.
You are simply thinking what would logically , in your mind happened to them.
You have them wandering around without purpose and God resurrecting them so they could die again.
That's like saying the last resurrection of earth's I habitats later died after that same wondering around.

Do you know why every single human in the grave, at the last resurrection, is resurrected?.

QUOTE , """Can you be precise - what is bad? That I believe they died again? Well there is nobody living today that is nearly 2,000 years old, so I'm sure they did die!"""

They are now in heaven.
Jesus the firstfruits resurrected and in heaven.
Those in paradise resurrected along with Jesus and in heaven.( as PART OF the firstfruits.)

The rapture is the main harvest.
Those left behind are "corners"
( the corners are left for later.)

All of that is THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
At that point God turns to the fruit harvest.
The Jewish gathering of romans 11.

 

[rebuilder 454]

David's body has decayed. Peter explained that David was prophetically referring to the coming Messiah - Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.​

(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;​

(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.​

(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

Nobody is in paradise. The dead are in their graves - in sheol/hades. Everybody remains there until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection (after Jesus) has not happened yet.


The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WEB):

(18) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;​

(19) in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

Those spirits were not humans, they were the fallen angels, as Peter explained earlier in his letter, and they are not in sheol (nor paradise) but another place - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

This was confirmed by Judes - Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

Maybe you were not taught the truth about that!

I read your post.
Nothing of that post applies.

Yes David's body did see decay.
The Holy one , Jesus did not.

Yes there is paradise.
Maybe do a study on it.
Taking the word "prison" and trying to make a doctrine is like saying the rich man and Lazarus never existed.

Not sure about why you need the millions of humans killed in the flood to be nephelim.?

QUOTE
"""The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WE"""

SMH.
Do a little investigation.
No fear in study.
Paradise taken to heaven with its inhabitants is your friend.
No bogey man.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Looks like readers are finding difficulty to straighten this mysterious claim of rebuilder 454.

His claim corresponds with those rose from their grave as Christ resurrected on the third day.

Therefore this debunks and rule out the scripture that reads, Christ is the firstfruit/firstborn from the dead and none other?? (Colossians 1:18)

No!!

Always GOD is the truth and man a liar, and a heretic who would preach another gospel besides the one the Apostles preached and is written.

Matthew 27:
53. And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Therefore to conclude, those who came out of their graves are 'no firstfruits'.

1 John 4:
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of GOD: he that knoweth GOD heareth us; he that is not of GOD heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Bible study is not the bogey man.
Of course people don't understand scripture.

They are following doctrine.
That paradise study is fascinating to me.
To others it is like a horrible monster.

All of you can remain unlearned.
Does not matter at all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Readers, do you believe that, 'Jesus preached to those(souls) that died in the flood'??

1 Peter 3:
19. By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of GOD waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Genesis 6:
2. That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My Spirit(Holy Ghost) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Hebrews 1:
13. But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on MY right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Therefore, aren't they the sons of GOD/angels/spirits which were disobedient in the days of Noah, in prison??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

I knew you would get that one muddied up also.

That is why I knew not to even discuss it with you.

As predicted ,you transposed it.

 

[keithr]

QUOTE
""". These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ."""

Where are you getting that from.?

From a variety of Bible study articles many years ago. It particularly refers to the Great Multitude class of Revelation 7. Revelation 7:14-15 (WEB):

(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.​

(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.​

Those in paradise that Jesus descended to and preached the Gospel were resurrected and went to heaven.

Where are you getting that from? The word Paradise is only used three times in the Bible and Jesus is never said to descend to Paradise. Dead people can't be preached to because they have no conscious thoughts; when people die their thoughts cease - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

You have them wandering around without purpose and God resurrecting them so they could die again.

I never mentioned anything about people being resurrected so they could die again. They die during the Great Tribulation and are resurrected as spirit beings, and will live in heaven serving God in His temple

Do you know why every single human in the grave, at the last resurrection, is resurrected?

Yes. Because Jesus paid the redemption price for everyone, to buy back their right to life. They are resurrected to human life again, but they then need teaching and restoration to human perfection (correcting their imperfect corrupted human nature), which God has allowed up to 1,000 years to accomplish. After that they will be tested, and only those that remain faithful and loyal to God and Jesus will be granted eternal life - those that fail the test will perish.

QUOTE , """Can you be precise - what is bad? That I believe they died again? Well there is nobody living today that is nearly 2,000 years old, so I'm sure they did die!"""

They are now in heaven.

How did they get there? The first resurrection and rapture hasn't happened yet.

Those in paradise resurrected along with Jesus and in heaven.( as PART OF the firstfruits.)

You have to be resurrected to be alive in Paradise. You can't be resurrected again if you are already in Paradise. Where are you getting that from?

The rapture is the main harvest.
Those left behind are "corners"
( the corners are left for later.)

What are you talking about? Please give Bible references to explain what you're trying to say.

 

[pandaflower]

Paul absolutely revealed the mystery of the rapture — but he never said it happens before the tribulation.

The “day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is the same climactic return Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 — the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to Him. But in 2 Thess. 2:3, Paul clearly says that day won’t come until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin — both part of the tribulation timeline.

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

And yes, the early Church didn’t have the full canon — but they did have Paul’s letters. And..
None of them ever taught a two-stage return of Christ.
None of them believed in a secret pre-trib rapture.

Darby invented that system in the 1800s. Paul didn’t teach it. Jesus didn’t preach it. The apostles didn’t expect it. And the early church never believed it.

What they did believe was exactly what Jesus said: Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect. (Matthew 24:29–31)

That’s not mystery. That’s Scripture.

Matthew 24.
I believe the church will be caught up before the great and terrible wrath of God befalls earth and those left behind.

I think there are lots of scriptures to support rapture of the church.

 

[keithr]

I read your post.
Nothing of that post applies.

You had posted:

David said " you will not leave my soul in sheole"
Referring to his revelation on paradise.

So explain Jesus' "revelation on paradise" that you referred to (but were too lazy to give the Bible reference to - Psalms 16:10).

Yes there is paradise.
Maybe do a study on it.

Go on then, show us from the Bible what you've learnt from your study on Paradise, and explain how Peter's explanation of Psalms 16:10 was incorrect.

Start with the only verses that use the word Paradise (from UASV+):

Luke 23:43

And he said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise."​

2 Corinthians 12:4

was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which a man is not permitted to speak.​

Revelation 2:7

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’​

Taking the word "prison" and trying to make a doctrine is like saying the rich man and Lazarus never existed.

Whereas you took the word 'prison' and pretended that it said paradise! And of course the "rich man and Lazarus" never existed - you're referring to a parable - Luke 16:19-20 (WEB):

(19) “Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day.​

(20) A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores,​

I think we're getting closer to the root of your confusion! You've taken a Hebrew metaphor, that is not mentioned in the Bible outside of the parable, and imagined it as being Paradise, where dead people are alive, and made a doctrine out of that! That is not sound Bible study - it is contradictory to many other Bible verses!

Not sure about why you need the millions of humans killed in the flood to be nephelim.?

I never mentioned anything about millions of people being killed in the great flood as all being Nephilim! The Nephilim were the offspring that resulted from the fallen angels taking human women by force and mating with them, resulting in a hydrid race. The spirits in prison were the fallen angels. They didn't die (in the flood or otherwise); God imprisoned them - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

You seem to easily jump to wrong conclusions!

QUOTE
"""The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WE"""

SMH.
Do a little investigation.

Shaking your head won't help. You should do a little investigation so that you can then show me the Bible verses where you get this idea that the Old Testament faithful did not die when they died, but continued to live somewhere (you claim in Paradise), and that Jesus after his death went to that place and preached to them, then resurrected them (although how can you restore to life someone who is already alive?) and took them to heaven (before anybody gets resurrected in the FIRST resurrection). And explain how that harmonies with 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (WEB):

(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

(23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming.​

Paradise taken to heaven with its inhabitants is your friend.

Again, give Bible references to support your claims. I can't find any verses in harmony with what you say.

 

[Fred J]

Matthew 24.
I believe the church will be caught up before the great and terrible wrath of God befalls earth and those left behind.

I think there are lots of scriptures to support rapture of the church.

Don't think but rather quote the scriptures, thank you.

 

[pandaflower]

Don't think but rather quote the scriptures, thank you.

What a curious response.

 

[Fred J]

You had posted:

So explain Jesus' "revelation on paradise" that you referred to (but were too lazy to give the Bible reference to - Psalms 16:10).


Go on then, show us from the Bible what you've learnt from your study on Paradise, and explain how Peter's explanation of Psalms 16:10 was incorrect.

Start with the only verses that use the word Paradise (from UASV+):

Luke 23:43

And he said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise."​

2 Corinthians 12:4

was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which a man is not permitted to speak.​

Revelation 2:7

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’​

Whereas you took the word 'prison' and pretended that it said paradise! And of course the "rich man and Lazarus" never existed - you're refrring to a parable - Luke 16:19-20 (WEB):

(19) “Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day.​

(20) A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores,​

I think we're getting closer to the root of your confusion! You've taken a Hebrew metaphor, that is not mentioned in the Bible outside of the parable, and imagined it as being Paradise, where dead people are alive, and made a doctrine out of that! That is not sound Bible study - it is contradictory to many other Bible verses!


I never mentioned anything about millions of people being killed in the great flood as all being Nephilim! The Nephilim were the offspring that resulted from the fallen angels taking human women by force and mating with them, resulting in a hydrid race. The spirits in prison were the fallen angels. They didn't die (in the flood or otherwise); God imprisoned them - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

You seem to easily jump to wrong conclusions!


Shaking your head won't help. You should do a little investigation so that you can then show me the Bible verses where you get this idea that the Old Testament faithful did not die when they died, but continued to live somewhere (you claim in Paradise), and that Jesus after his death went to that place and preached to them, then resurrected them (although how can you restore to life someone who is already alive?) and took them to heaven (before anybody gets resurrected in the FIRST resurrection). And explain how that harmonies with 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (WEB):

(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

(23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming.​

Again, give Bible references to support your claims. I can't find any verses in harmony with what you say.

Apparently he's parroting what is of others and haven't a clue nor scripture references.

Some thing he said about paradise made sense, but himself haven't a clue nor added scripture reference to back it up.

My advice is imitate your Master Jesus, who did not sit down with Nicodemus and persuade him to understand just one topic, being born again.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

What a curious response.

Don't be curious, but bring out scripture references to back up your claim, of the rapture is before the wrath of GOD, that am curious about.

Thank you since it's a Bible Study Forum

 

[pandaflower]

Don't be curious, but bring out scripture references to back up your claim, of the rapture is before the wrath of GOD, that am curious about.

Thank you since it's a Bible Study Forum

I referenced a book and chapter in the New testament.
Many prefer a particular version of the Bible. Therefore,being that Matthew 24 speaks to the pre-tribulation rapture, I find it best to share book and chapter so that readers may read a chapter in full context of it's message.

Being this is indeed a Bible study forum , it is presumed members have a Bible. Or, a link to a preferred on-line Bible site.

That you prefer a verse be posted,here you go.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17