IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[The Gospel of Christ]

I read from you how we are the Israel of God so where did you get that?

Where did I get “Israel of God”?

From Paul.
From Scripture.
From the Holy Spirit.

“And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
— Galatians 6:16

Not a nation-state. Not a bloodline.
Paul is writing to Gentile believers in Christ — and he calls them the Israel of God.

That’s not my opinion.
That’s the Word of God — and you just admitted you’ve never seen it.

And yet you’re out here building entire theological structures on charts, timelines, and speculation — while missing the actual verses that demolish your system.

So again I ask:

If your doctrine didn’t come from Paul, didn’t come from Jesus, and doesn’t even know Galatians 6:16 exists…
where did it come from?

Because it sure didn’t come from the Spirit of truth.

 

[rockytopva]

Hoping I am not around when this occurs...

24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.
25 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; - Jeremiah 9

 

[rebuilder 454]

You've just released a whole lot of Scofield smoke and Darby dust for one thread — but let’s cut straight through it with a theological blowtorch.

You accuse me of “omitting” the so-called pre-trib rapture verses? I didn’t omit them — they don’t exist. Not one verse describes a secret coming of Christ before the tribulation. Not one. Every “proof” you try to offer is built on assumptions, parables twisted out of context, and blatant misreading.

Let’s take your claims and run them through a biblical woodchipper:

1. “Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture.”
Really? Where? Chapter and verse — go ahead. I’ll wait.

Jesus said:
“Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather together his elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

That’s Jesus Himself giving you the timeline. And if you're saying "the elect" isn't the Church, then you’ve got to explain why Paul calls believers “God’s elect” (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). You don’t get to redefine the elect every time it’s inconvenient to your system.

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

Jesus doubles down:
“So shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:39

This is not a pre-trib verse — it’s a warning about sudden judgment.

3. “Revelation 14:14 is the rapture!”
You mean the harvest of the earth?
That’s Jesus returning in judgment — the sickle, the winepress, the wrath. That’s not a quiet whisking away. That’s the apocalypse.

And just two chapters later:
“These came out of great tribulation.”
— Revelation 7:14

So… when did they get raptured if they’re clearly in the tribulation?

4. “The virgins prove a pre-trib rapture!”
Parables are not timelines. They’re moral and spiritual lessons.

The point of the parable? Be ready.
Because when the Bridegroom returns — there’s no second chance.

That doesn’t prove a two-phase rapture. It proves urgency and faithfulness. Trying to build a rapture doctrine from a metaphor is like claiming the prodigal son disproves adoption.

5. “The early Church was heretical — don’t trust them!”
Oh, but trust Darby, who invented a totally new doctrine in 1830? Got it.

You can’t throw out 1800 years of unified Christian expectation — a visible return after tribulation — and replace it with a 19th-century hallucination funded by Zionist dispensationalists and footnoted into a Bible by a literal convicted criminal (Scofield).

You want one quote from the early Church Fathers proving they believed in the Second Coming after tribulation?

Irenaeus (180 AD):
“The Church shall flee into the wilderness, and tribulation will come, and then the Lord shall come from Heaven in glory…” — Against Heresies 5.29

Justin Martyr (150 AD):
“He shall come from the heavens with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things… shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians.”

That’s persecution before His return.

6. “You changed Matthew 24!”
No — I quoted it verbatim. You just don’t like what it says.

“AFTER the tribulation… THEN shall appear the sign… AND he shall gather…”
That’s a clear sequence.

You want “before”?
Find the verse.
You can’t. Because it’s not there.

Bottom Line:

You accuse me of following man — but I follow Jesus’ words, Paul’s letters, and the early Church.

Your “doctrine” is younger than the typewriter — and just as outdated.

You didn’t inherit it from the apostles. You inherited it from a long line of charlatans and TV prophecy peddlers:

Darby (1830s) – Invented the pre-trib rapture out of thin air

Scofield (1909) – Footnoted it into the Bible like it was canon

Hal Lindsey (1970s) – Sold it with The Late Great Planet Earth

Jack Van Impe – Quoted the entire Bible and somehow missed Matthew 24:29

John Hagee – Replaced the Gospel with Zionist nationalism

Tim LaHaye (1995) – Turned it into Left Behind fiction

That’s not apostolic teaching — that’s Scofieldian science fiction on par with the delusions of L. Ron Hubbard.

The pre-trib rapture is a modern hoax — a dangerous fantasy designed to lull the Church into passivity, waiting to be extracted instead of enduring and overcoming.

“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

It says "two men in a bed, One taken, The other left"

You say one is wicked, with the mark of the beast, and one is a righteous, a born again believer.
Your theory of all that is that half the world is wicked and taken in Judgement.
Wow, that is truly bizarre! A born again believer in bed with a wicked satan worshipper.
You sure you want to take that position???
Then you believe that DURING the tribulation there is normal life as Jesus descried the setting.
Nope, Jesus declared the setting as exactly opposite your man made model.(Mat 24;38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark)


You declare that Jesus will rapture the church after the tribulation without any verses, That is Just your belief,

So we can see that the "one taken" in your doctrine can not possibly be "half the earths population taken to judgement, because your theory demands half of mankind is saved and half unsaved.
That alone debunks your doctrine.
Ahem,Your entire deal is debunked

 

[rebuilder 454]

“Replacement theology” is a Dispensationalist slur — designed to smear the original Christian belief that the Church is the continuation and fulfillment of God’s covenant people.
Not a replacement, but a completion.

The Church doesn’t replace Israel — it is Israel.
(And any Christian who doesn’t know that is lost in the theological woods.)

Not a geopolitical nation. Not a bloodline.
But the people of faith — Jew and Gentile alike — grafted together under the blood of the New Covenant.

This was never about genetics or geography.
It’s about Christ. Always was. Always will be.

You ask what I do with Romans 11?
I read it. Carefully.

“Not all Israel is of Israel.” — Romans 9:6
“Branches were broken off… and you were grafted in.” — Romans 11:19
“If they continue not in unbelief, they shall be grafted in again.” — Romans 11:23

Paul’s point?
Faith in Christ is the condition.
Unbelief cuts you off.
Jew or Gentile — no exceptions.

Romans 11 doesn’t predict a future for ethnic Israel apart from Christ.
It offers hope of restoration if they turn to Him — the same offer extended to all.

“He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but inwardly.” — Romans 2:28
“If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

As for the 144,000 in Revelation?
Symbolic. Representative. Apocalyptic literature is full of signs and patterns.

They’re called “the servants of God” — not Levitical priests.
Not nationalists. Not politicians.

The very next verse shows “a great multitude no man could number, of all nations.” — Revelation 7:9

You think God’s elect are a literal 144,000 bloodline Jews, while ignoring the uncountable multinational remnant that follows?

That’s not theology.
That’s Scofieldian numerology with a Zionist twist.

No — this isn’t “replacement theology.”
It’s New Covenant theology — the actual position of Jesus, Paul, Peter, the early Church, and the entire New Testament.

“This is the covenant I will make… I will write my law on their hearts… and they shall be my people.” — Jeremiah 31:33
(fulfilled in Hebrews 8:8–13)

If you’re in Christ — you are Israel.
If you reject Christ — you are outside the covenant.
Doesn’t matter your ancestry, your passport, your DNA test, or your flag.

And what makes this even worse?

Over 95%+ of people in modern False Israel™ are white, Eastern European converts — Khazars, Russians, Poles, and secular Zionists — who are about as related to Abraham & David as Bruce Lee and Mao Zedong.

Their ancestors were force-converted to Judaism in 740 A.D. by King Bulan at the end of a sword — and they couldn’t have found biblical Israel on a map even if the entire map was labeled “Israel.”

This isn’t prophecy fulfilled.
It’s a Rothschild-backed identity scam, wrapped in Old Testament cosplay and sold as divine destiny to Scofield-brainwashed evangelicals who can’t tell the Gospel of Christ from a Left Behind box set.

At this point, even Kim Jong-un in a prayer shawl has a stronger claim to the covenant than some of these U.N.-backed, Tel Aviv paper Jews.

What do you call a white Russian, Ashkenazi, or Polish convert to Judaism claiming they’re genetically related to David and Jesus?
That’s right — a false Jew.

Not my label — Scripture’s.
“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” — Revelation 2:9

Lineage doesn’t save you. Jesus does.
And without Him, there is no covenant — only counterfeit.

But here’s the warped irony — they’re not even related to biblical Jews.
They’re white Eastern Europeans, descended from Khazar converts and Slavic tribes.
So this isn’t just spiritual fraud —
It’s genealogical fiction wrapped in a Zionist flag and rubber-stamped by the U.N.

The entire thing is beyond insane — a global delusion where Europeans with no bloodline connection to Abraham claim the land, the covenant, and the promise… while rejecting the very Messiah it was all pointing to.

That’s not restoration.
That’s a geopolitical impersonation —
And every Scofield-soaked evangelical who defends it is helping stage the longest-running identity theft in biblical history.

If you’re trying to inherit the promise without Christ — through bloodlines and border fences — you’re not reclaiming prophecy.
You’re committing spiritual fraud.

Any gospel that elevates ethnic identity above the cross is not just error — it’s blasphemy.
It’s another gospel. A cursed gospel.

“If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed.” — Galatians 1:9

This isn’t a theological side quest.
This is heresy in league with Satan — the very deception Christ Himself warned about.

If your gospel requires Jesus to take a backseat to a bloodline, a flag, or a Rothschild-funded nation-state, then you are not preaching Christ. You are preaching a Scofield-fueled delusion — crafted in hell, footnoted into the Bible, and sold to the masses.

The true Israel is not in Tel Aviv.
It’s found in Christ — Jew and Gentile, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Preach anything else?
You’re not defending Scripture.
You’re preaching Satan’s gospel — and Jesus will crush it when He returns.

You’re not witnessing the return of God’s people.
You’re watching a Rothschild-funded costume party — and Scofield made you think it was the Book of Revelation.

LOL
You just presented your theory that mirrors replacement theology.
You can not reconcile the 144k ethnic Jews or romans ch 11.
...nor can anyone trying to make that doctrine fit scripture

 

[rebuilder 454]

You've just released a whole lot of Scofield smoke and Darby dust for one thread — but let’s cut straight through it with a theological blowtorch.

You accuse me of “omitting” the so-called pre-trib rapture verses? I didn’t omit them — they don’t exist. Not one verse describes a secret coming of Christ before the tribulation. Not one. Every “proof” you try to offer is built on assumptions, parables twisted out of context, and blatant misreading.

Let’s take your claims and run them through a biblical woodchipper:

1. “Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture.”
Really? Where? Chapter and verse — go ahead. I’ll wait.

Jesus said:
“Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather together his elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

That’s Jesus Himself giving you the timeline. And if you're saying "the elect" isn't the Church, then you’ve got to explain why Paul calls believers “God’s elect” (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). You don’t get to redefine the elect every time it’s inconvenient to your system.

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

Jesus doubles down:
“So shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:39

This is not a pre-trib verse — it’s a warning about sudden judgment.

3. “Revelation 14:14 is the rapture!”
You mean the harvest of the earth?
That’s Jesus returning in judgment — the sickle, the winepress, the wrath. That’s not a quiet whisking away. That’s the apocalypse.

And just two chapters later:
“These came out of great tribulation.”
— Revelation 7:14

So… when did they get raptured if they’re clearly in the tribulation?

4. “The virgins prove a pre-trib rapture!”
Parables are not timelines. They’re moral and spiritual lessons.

The point of the parable? Be ready.
Because when the Bridegroom returns — there’s no second chance.

That doesn’t prove a two-phase rapture. It proves urgency and faithfulness. Trying to build a rapture doctrine from a metaphor is like claiming the prodigal son disproves adoption.

5. “The early Church was heretical — don’t trust them!”
Oh, but trust Darby, who invented a totally new doctrine in 1830? Got it.

You can’t throw out 1800 years of unified Christian expectation — a visible return after tribulation — and replace it with a 19th-century hallucination funded by Zionist dispensationalists and footnoted into a Bible by a literal convicted criminal (Scofield).

You want one quote from the early Church Fathers proving they believed in the Second Coming after tribulation?

Irenaeus (180 AD):
“The Church shall flee into the wilderness, and tribulation will come, and then the Lord shall come from Heaven in glory…” — Against Heresies 5.29

Justin Martyr (150 AD):
“He shall come from the heavens with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things… shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians.”

That’s persecution before His return.

6. “You changed Matthew 24!”
No — I quoted it verbatim. You just don’t like what it says.

“AFTER the tribulation… THEN shall appear the sign… AND he shall gather…”
That’s a clear sequence.

You want “before”?
Find the verse.
You can’t. Because it’s not there.

Bottom Line:

You accuse me of following man — but I follow Jesus’ words, Paul’s letters, and the early Church.

Your “doctrine” is younger than the typewriter — and just as outdated.

You didn’t inherit it from the apostles. You inherited it from a long line of charlatans and TV prophecy peddlers:

Darby (1830s) – Invented the pre-trib rapture out of thin air

Scofield (1909) – Footnoted it into the Bible like it was canon

Hal Lindsey (1970s) – Sold it with The Late Great Planet Earth

Jack Van Impe – Quoted the entire Bible and somehow missed Matthew 24:29

John Hagee – Replaced the Gospel with Zionist nationalism

Tim LaHaye (1995) – Turned it into Left Behind fiction

That’s not apostolic teaching — that’s Scofieldian science fiction on par with the delusions of L. Ron Hubbard.

The pre-trib rapture is a modern hoax — a dangerous fantasy designed to lull the Church into passivity, waiting to be extracted instead of enduring and overcoming.

“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

1. “Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture.”
Really? Where? Chapter and verse — go ahead. I’ll wait.

Jesus said:
“Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather together his elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

Mat 24, mat 25, acts 1, The last supper dialogue, the 2 escape verses, rev 14;14, 1 thes 4, rev 19,
(that is all pretribulation rapture doctrine verses against your zero verses)
So i ask again for you to find at least one post tribulation rapture verse.

now Read mat 24 ;30>
30....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did you see that?
your supposed rapture?
1) the only place Jesus comes in power and great glory, is rev 19. The rapture DOES NOT FIT THAT....NO RAPTURE VERSE FITS REV 19

2) read that very slowly and please do note the angels are gathering, not Jesus, and they are gathering from heaven, not earth. I have already shown you this and yet somehow in your mind you see a rapture at revelation 19 when Jesus comes in power and great glory

6. “You changed Matthew 24!”
No — I quoted it verbatim. You just don’t like what it says.

We see you changed it.
We need to know why.
I suspect you may want to dump the obsession with dead ancients and crack a Bible.

You want “before”?
Find the verse.
You can’t. Because it’s not there.

mat24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then (before the flood ) shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Jesus said before the flood there will be normal life in everyday life, and buying and selling, And half of a group are taken,
so the one taken (the rapture) will be at the opposite time of your doctrine
Mat 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: (before the flood) for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
See that?
Jesus said there will be normal life, everyday life and activities ,which is before the tribulation ,and one believer will be taken,one left behind,
and for us to watch and pray
Your doctrine has to have all that changed
Sad indeed

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's your perogative and perspective. Many of the present day theologians sm that I have learned from are Pre-Trib too!
But when you start witnessing catastrophic events as described in the 7 Seals and 6 Trumpets and the Church is still here, you'll quickly abandon your Pre-Trib. view.
>>> Honestly, I would rather the Pre- Trib view was right and we don 't experience any of it and get out of here - I just see the 7th Trumpet as the last as described in 1 Cor. 15:52

That said, I'll offer an alternative 7th Trumpet view that would actually put all the events written in the Seals and trumpets before anything actually is manifest on earth. As I said, Jesus already opened the scroll right after His ascension 30AD The actions within the scroll did not take place at the time of course because it is just a play book of orders and details, the end game plan. Once the setting is set with all the actors on stage, the trumpets begin to blow..Now we are shown them individually, what they represent, and John can only see these events one at a time; but that doesn't mean they aren't all happening simultaneously, overlapping as the deah toll accumulates.
Now here's the alternate possibility: They trumpets are blown simultaneously or rapidly in heaven within moments. If that were true, then a last trumpet escape could actually happen before the Great Tribulation began. ? Typically in war, trumpets were blown as a signal to warn, prepare, or charge, before anything happened. Just a speculative theory.

the point is, a doctrine based on the "pillar" of one verse ,(trumpet) is shaky.
I can defend the pretribulation with about 7 verses
There are zero post tribulation verses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

“Replacement theology” is a Dispensationalist slur — designed to smear the original Christian belief that the Church is the continuation and fulfillment of God’s covenant people.
Not a replacement, but a completion.

The Church doesn’t replace Israel — it is Israel.
(And any Christian who doesn’t know that is lost in the theological woods.)

Not a geopolitical nation. Not a bloodline.
But the people of faith — Jew and Gentile alike — grafted together under the blood of the New Covenant.

This was never about genetics or geography.
It’s about Christ. Always was. Always will be.

You ask what I do with Romans 11?
I read it. Carefully.

“Not all Israel is of Israel.” — Romans 9:6
“Branches were broken off… and you were grafted in.” — Romans 11:19
“If they continue not in unbelief, they shall be grafted in again.” — Romans 11:23

Paul’s point?
Faith in Christ is the condition.
Unbelief cuts you off.
Jew or Gentile — no exceptions.

Romans 11 doesn’t predict a future for ethnic Israel apart from Christ.
It offers hope of restoration if they turn to Him — the same offer extended to all.

“He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but inwardly.” — Romans 2:28
“If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

As for the 144,000 in Revelation?
Symbolic. Representative. Apocalyptic literature is full of signs and patterns.

They’re called “the servants of God” — not Levitical priests.
Not nationalists. Not politicians.

The very next verse shows “a great multitude no man could number, of all nations.” — Revelation 7:9

You think God’s elect are a literal 144,000 bloodline Jews, while ignoring the uncountable multinational remnant that follows?

That’s not theology.
That’s Scofieldian numerology with a Zionist twist.

No — this isn’t “replacement theology.”
It’s New Covenant theology — the actual position of Jesus, Paul, Peter, the early Church, and the entire New Testament.

“This is the covenant I will make… I will write my law on their hearts… and they shall be my people.” — Jeremiah 31:33
(fulfilled in Hebrews 8:8–13)

If you’re in Christ — you are Israel.
If you reject Christ — you are outside the covenant.
Doesn’t matter your ancestry, your passport, your DNA test, or your flag.

And what makes this even worse?

Over 95%+ of people in modern False Israel™ are white, Eastern European converts — Khazars, Russians, Poles, and secular Zionists — who are about as related to Abraham & David as Bruce Lee and Mao Zedong.

Their ancestors were force-converted to Judaism in 740 A.D. by King Bulan at the end of a sword — and they couldn’t have found biblical Israel on a map even if the entire map was labeled “Israel.”

This isn’t prophecy fulfilled.
It’s a Rothschild-backed identity scam, wrapped in Old Testament cosplay and sold as divine destiny to Scofield-brainwashed evangelicals who can’t tell the Gospel of Christ from a Left Behind box set.

At this point, even Kim Jong-un in a prayer shawl has a stronger claim to the covenant than some of these U.N.-backed, Tel Aviv paper Jews.

What do you call a white Russian, Ashkenazi, or Polish convert to Judaism claiming they’re genetically related to David and Jesus?
That’s right — a false Jew.

Not my label — Scripture’s.
“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” — Revelation 2:9

Lineage doesn’t save you. Jesus does.
And without Him, there is no covenant — only counterfeit.

But here’s the warped irony — they’re not even related to biblical Jews.
They’re white Eastern Europeans, descended from Khazar converts and Slavic tribes.
So this isn’t just spiritual fraud —
It’s genealogical fiction wrapped in a Zionist flag and rubber-stamped by the U.N.

The entire thing is beyond insane — a global delusion where Europeans with no bloodline connection to Abraham claim the land, the covenant, and the promise… while rejecting the very Messiah it was all pointing to.

That’s not restoration.
That’s a geopolitical impersonation —
And every Scofield-soaked evangelical who defends it is helping stage the longest-running identity theft in biblical history.

If you’re trying to inherit the promise without Christ — through bloodlines and border fences — you’re not reclaiming prophecy.
You’re committing spiritual fraud.

Any gospel that elevates ethnic identity above the cross is not just error — it’s blasphemy.
It’s another gospel. A cursed gospel.

“If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed.” — Galatians 1:9

This isn’t a theological side quest.
This is heresy in league with Satan — the very deception Christ Himself warned about.

If your gospel requires Jesus to take a backseat to a bloodline, a flag, or a Rothschild-funded nation-state, then you are not preaching Christ. You are preaching a Scofield-fueled delusion — crafted in hell, footnoted into the Bible, and sold to the masses.

The true Israel is not in Tel Aviv.
It’s found in Christ — Jew and Gentile, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Preach anything else?
You’re not defending Scripture.
You’re preaching Satan’s gospel — and Jesus will crush it when He returns.

You’re not witnessing the return of God’s people.
You’re watching a Rothschild-funded costume party — and Scofield made you think it was the Book of Revelation.

The Church doesn’t replace Israel — it is Israel.
(And any Christian who doesn’t know that is lost in the theological woods.)

I am not the one dancing around romans 11, or trying to say the 144k ethnic Jews are something you made up.
Your deal is really debunked, tired doctrine.

You’re preaching Satan’s gospel

I was wondering how long before you started your little attacks personally.
You're obsessed with error, then can't handle being called out.
LOL

You think God’s elect are a literal 144,000 bloodline Jews, while ignoring the uncountable multinational remnant that follows?

Your getting all weirded out.
It SAYS 144,000 CHOSEN OUT OF THE 12 tribes.
Start your doctrine in truth, not some wild assertions

 

[rebuilder 454]

You've just released a whole lot of Scofield smoke and Darby dust for one thread — but let’s cut straight through it with a theological blowtorch.

You accuse me of “omitting” the so-called pre-trib rapture verses? I didn’t omit them — they don’t exist. Not one verse describes a secret coming of Christ before the tribulation. Not one. Every “proof” you try to offer is built on assumptions, parables twisted out of context, and blatant misreading.

Let’s take your claims and run them through a biblical woodchipper:

1. “Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture.”
Really? Where? Chapter and verse — go ahead. I’ll wait.

Jesus said:
“Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather together his elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

That’s Jesus Himself giving you the timeline. And if you're saying "the elect" isn't the Church, then you’ve got to explain why Paul calls believers “God’s elect” (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). You don’t get to redefine the elect every time it’s inconvenient to your system.

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

Jesus doubles down:
“So shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:39

This is not a pre-trib verse — it’s a warning about sudden judgment.

3. “Revelation 14:14 is the rapture!”
You mean the harvest of the earth?
That’s Jesus returning in judgment — the sickle, the winepress, the wrath. That’s not a quiet whisking away. That’s the apocalypse.

And just two chapters later:
“These came out of great tribulation.”
— Revelation 7:14

So… when did they get raptured if they’re clearly in the tribulation?

4. “The virgins prove a pre-trib rapture!”
Parables are not timelines. They’re moral and spiritual lessons.

The point of the parable? Be ready.
Because when the Bridegroom returns — there’s no second chance.

That doesn’t prove a two-phase rapture. It proves urgency and faithfulness. Trying to build a rapture doctrine from a metaphor is like claiming the prodigal son disproves adoption.

5. “The early Church was heretical — don’t trust them!”
Oh, but trust Darby, who invented a totally new doctrine in 1830? Got it.

You can’t throw out 1800 years of unified Christian expectation — a visible return after tribulation — and replace it with a 19th-century hallucination funded by Zionist dispensationalists and footnoted into a Bible by a literal convicted criminal (Scofield).

You want one quote from the early Church Fathers proving they believed in the Second Coming after tribulation?

Irenaeus (180 AD):
“The Church shall flee into the wilderness, and tribulation will come, and then the Lord shall come from Heaven in glory…” — Against Heresies 5.29

Justin Martyr (150 AD):
“He shall come from the heavens with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things… shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians.”

That’s persecution before His return.

6. “You changed Matthew 24!”
No — I quoted it verbatim. You just don’t like what it says.

“AFTER the tribulation… THEN shall appear the sign… AND he shall gather…”
That’s a clear sequence.

You want “before”?
Find the verse.
You can’t. Because it’s not there.

Bottom Line:

You accuse me of following man — but I follow Jesus’ words, Paul’s letters, and the early Church.

Your “doctrine” is younger than the typewriter — and just as outdated.

You didn’t inherit it from the apostles. You inherited it from a long line of charlatans and TV prophecy peddlers:

Darby (1830s) – Invented the pre-trib rapture out of thin air

Scofield (1909) – Footnoted it into the Bible like it was canon

Hal Lindsey (1970s) – Sold it with The Late Great Planet Earth

Jack Van Impe – Quoted the entire Bible and somehow missed Matthew 24:29

John Hagee – Replaced the Gospel with Zionist nationalism

Tim LaHaye (1995) – Turned it into Left Behind fiction

That’s not apostolic teaching — that’s Scofieldian science fiction on par with the delusions of L. Ron Hubbard.

The pre-trib rapture is a modern hoax — a dangerous fantasy designed to lull the Church into passivity, waiting to be extracted instead of enduring and overcoming.

“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

The only place I ever see darby, is when you "man followers" accuse others of being man followers.

I have never stated that I follow any of those dead men.
You, however, celebrate that you follow dead ancients, and use their quotes out of context to dishonestly promote your admitted following of their doctrine.
You declare you get your doctrine from man.
OH the irony.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Mat 24, mat 25, acts 1, The last supper dialogue, the 2 escape verses, rev 14;14, 1 thes 4, rev 19,
(that is all pretribulation rapture doctrine verses against your zero verses)
So i ask again for you to find at least one post tribulation rapture verse.

now Read mat 24 ;30>
30....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did you see that?
your supposed rapture?
1) the only place Jesus comes in power and great glory, is rev 19. The rapture DOES NOT FIT THAT....NO RAPTURE VERSE FITS REV 19

2) read that very slowly and please do note the angels are gathering, not Jesus, and they are gathering from heaven, not earth. I have already shown you this and yet somehow in your mind you see a rapture at revelation 19 when Jesus comes in power and great glory


We see you changed it.
We need to know why.
I suspect you may want to dump the obsession with dead ancients and crack a Bible.


mat24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then (before the flood ) shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Jesus said before the flood there will be normal life in everyday life, and buying and selling, And half of a group are taken,
so the one taken (the rapture) will be at the opposite time of your doctrine
Mat 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: (before the flood) for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
See that?
Jesus said there will be normal life, everyday life and activities ,which is before the tribulation ,and one believer will be taken,one left behind,
and for us to watch and pray
Your doctrine has to have all that changed
Sad indeed

You keep parroting verses without context like a wind-up Scofield doll, thinking repetition equals truth. But what you’re really doing is dragging Scripture through the mud to defend a doctrine that didn’t even exist until John Nelson Darby hallucinated it in the 1830s. You say I have “zero verses” for a post-trib rapture? That’s rich, considering your entire view depends on twisting parables, misreading metaphors, and completely ignoring what Jesus actually said.

Let’s walk through the mess you just vomited out.

You quote Matthew 24:40–41 — “one taken, one left” — and call that the rapture. Did you even bother to read the verses that came right before it? Jesus literally says, “As it was in the days of Noah.” So let’s ask the obvious question: who was taken in Noah’s day? The wicked. They were swept away in judgment. Noah — the righteous — was left behind, preserved. Jesus says, “So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Not only are you wrong, you reversed the entire point of the passage. You’ve got the wicked getting raptured and the righteous getting left behind. Brilliant theology.

Then you try to say Matthew 24:30–31 doesn’t describe the rapture because “Jesus isn’t gathering people, angels are.” That’s one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. So what — if Jesus delegates the task to angels, it doesn’t count? He’s the King of Kings, not a one-man courier service. Delegation doesn’t mean absence. The entire passage is about His return — visible, with power and great glory — and the gathering of His elect immediately after the tribulation. That’s what the text says. You just don’t like it.

And then comes your coup de grâce: “Normal life is happening, so it must be before the tribulation.” You’ve clearly never read Revelation or any of the prophets. The first half of the tribulation is filled with delusion, buying, selling, drinking, marrying — all the usual distractions. That’s the whole point. People are asleep at the wheel while the storm is rolling in. The suddenness of judgment doesn’t mean it comes before tribulation — it means it comes like a thief, while the world is distracted by its own filth. Jesus returning to shock the wicked in their comfort is not a pre-trib verse. It’s a judgment verse.

You want a rapture verse that happens before the tribulation? You don’t have one. You never have. You’ve got nothing but Scofield footnotes, prophecy charts from the 1970s, and YouTube sermons by people who don’t know the difference between Israel and the Church. I gave you plain Scripture. Matthew 24:29 — “Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather his elect.” I gave you the early Church — Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, all of them placing the Church in tribulation before Christ returns. I gave you Paul — who says it happens at the last trumpet, not some secret prequel. And you gave me… nothing but noise.

You’re not contending for the faith. You’re regurgitating Zionist fan fiction, dressed up in King James English, and shouting down anyone who dares to read the Bible without Scofield glasses. The truth is, you’re terrified of suffering. That’s what this is really about. You want a theological escape hatch so you don’t have to endure the fire. But Jesus didn’t promise escape — He promised victory through tribulation. “He that endures to the end shall be saved.” Not he who gets vacuumed out in advance.

So go ahead and mock. Quote another out-of-context verse and pretend it proves something. But I’m not the one rewriting Scripture. You are. I’m not the one ignoring Jesus. You are. And I’m not the one setting up the Church to be blindsided by what’s coming. That’s you — pushing a lie so dangerous that it will leave millions unprepared, faithless, and confused when tribulation comes and there’s no evacuation.

You don’t need another debate. You need to repent. Because what you’re defending isn’t the Gospel. It’s a theological fairy tale — one that turns the Lamb of God into a getaway driver and leaves the Church asleep in her pew while the Beast rises. And when it all comes crashing down, you’ll remember that you were warned.

Not by Scofield. Not by Darby. But by the words of Christ Himself.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You keep parroting verses without context like a wind-up Scofield doll, thinking repetition equals truth. But what you’re really doing is dragging Scripture through the mud to defend a doctrine that didn’t even exist until John Nelson Darby hallucinated it in the 1830s. You say I have “zero verses” for a post-trib rapture? That’s rich, considering your entire view depends on twisting parables, misreading metaphors, and completely ignoring what Jesus actually said.

Let’s walk through the mess you just vomited out.

You quote Matthew 24:40–41 — “one taken, one left” — and call that the rapture. Did you even bother to read the verses that came right before it? Jesus literally says, “As it was in the days of Noah.” So let’s ask the obvious question: who was taken in Noah’s day? The wicked. They were swept away in judgment. Noah — the righteous — was left behind, preserved. Jesus says, “So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Not only are you wrong, you reversed the entire point of the passage. You’ve got the wicked getting raptured and the righteous getting left behind. Brilliant theology.

Then you try to say Matthew 24:30–31 doesn’t describe the rapture because “Jesus isn’t gathering people, angels are.” That’s one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. So what — if Jesus delegates the task to angels, it doesn’t count? He’s the King of Kings, not a one-man courier service. Delegation doesn’t mean absence. The entire passage is about His return — visible, with power and great glory — and the gathering of His elect immediately after the tribulation. That’s what the text says. You just don’t like it.

And then comes your coup de grâce: “Normal life is happening, so it must be before the tribulation.” You’ve clearly never read Revelation or any of the prophets. The first half of the tribulation is filled with delusion, buying, selling, drinking, marrying — all the usual distractions. That’s the whole point. People are asleep at the wheel while the storm is rolling in. The suddenness of judgment doesn’t mean it comes before tribulation — it means it comes like a thief, while the world is distracted by its own filth. Jesus returning to shock the wicked in their comfort is not a pre-trib verse. It’s a judgment verse.

You want a rapture verse that happens before the tribulation? You don’t have one. You never have. You’ve got nothing but Scofield footnotes, prophecy charts from the 1970s, and YouTube sermons by people who don’t know the difference between Israel and the Church. I gave you plain Scripture. Matthew 24:29 — “Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather his elect.” I gave you the early Church — Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, all of them placing the Church in tribulation before Christ returns. I gave you Paul — who says it happens at the last trumpet, not some secret prequel. And you gave me… nothing but noise.

You’re not contending for the faith. You’re regurgitating Zionist fan fiction, dressed up in King James English, and shouting down anyone who dares to read the Bible without Scofield glasses. The truth is, you’re terrified of suffering. That’s what this is really about. You want a theological escape hatch so you don’t have to endure the fire. But Jesus didn’t promise escape — He promised victory through tribulation. “He that endures to the end shall be saved.” Not he who gets vacuumed out in advance.

So go ahead and mock. Quote another out-of-context verse and pretend it proves something. But I’m not the one rewriting Scripture. You are. I’m not the one ignoring Jesus. You are. And I’m not the one setting up the Church to be blindsided by what’s coming. That’s you — pushing a lie so dangerous that it will leave millions unprepared, faithless, and confused when tribulation comes and there’s no evacuation.

You don’t need another debate. You need to repent. Because what you’re defending isn’t the Gospel. It’s a theological fairy tale — one that turns the Lamb of God into a getaway driver and leaves the Church asleep in her pew while the Beast rises. And when it all comes crashing down, you’ll remember that you were warned.

Not by Scofield. Not by Darby. But by the words of Christ Himself.

You quote Matthew 24:40–41 — “one taken, one left” — and call that the rapture. Did you even bother to read the verses that came right before it? Jesus literally says, “As it was in the days of Noah.” So let’s ask the obvious question: who was taken in Noah’s day? The wicked. They were swept away in judgment. Noah — the righteous — was left behind, preserved. Jesus says, “So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Not only are you wrong, you reversed the entire point of the passage. You’ve got the wicked getting raptured and the righteous getting left behind. Brilliant theology.

Yes i quoted it. As opposed to you quoting PART OF IT

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

My point is IT SAYS before the flood
it says the coming of the son of man will be before the flood

it says the setting for the coming of the son of man
before the flood,
will be normal life and normal activities

it says the ones taken
will be taken before the flood

we both know why you have a severe problem with all of that

Not only are you wrong, you reversed the entire point of the passage. You’ve got the wicked getting raptured and the righteous getting left behind. Brilliant theology.

Your doctrine has the wicked taken
lol
yep your reversed it in your brilliant theology

 

[rebuilder 454]

You keep parroting verses without context like a wind-up Scofield doll, thinking repetition equals truth. But what you’re really doing is dragging Scripture through the mud to defend a doctrine that didn’t even exist until John Nelson Darby hallucinated it in the 1830s. You say I have “zero verses” for a post-trib rapture? That’s rich, considering your entire view depends on twisting parables, misreading metaphors, and completely ignoring what Jesus actually said.

Let’s walk through the mess you just vomited out.

You quote Matthew 24:40–41 — “one taken, one left” — and call that the rapture. Did you even bother to read the verses that came right before it? Jesus literally says, “As it was in the days of Noah.” So let’s ask the obvious question: who was taken in Noah’s day? The wicked. They were swept away in judgment. Noah — the righteous — was left behind, preserved. Jesus says, “So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Not only are you wrong, you reversed the entire point of the passage. You’ve got the wicked getting raptured and the righteous getting left behind. Brilliant theology.

Then you try to say Matthew 24:30–31 doesn’t describe the rapture because “Jesus isn’t gathering people, angels are.” That’s one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. So what — if Jesus delegates the task to angels, it doesn’t count? He’s the King of Kings, not a one-man courier service. Delegation doesn’t mean absence. The entire passage is about His return — visible, with power and great glory — and the gathering of His elect immediately after the tribulation. That’s what the text says. You just don’t like it.

And then comes your coup de grâce: “Normal life is happening, so it must be before the tribulation.” You’ve clearly never read Revelation or any of the prophets. The first half of the tribulation is filled with delusion, buying, selling, drinking, marrying — all the usual distractions. That’s the whole point. People are asleep at the wheel while the storm is rolling in. The suddenness of judgment doesn’t mean it comes before tribulation — it means it comes like a thief, while the world is distracted by its own filth. Jesus returning to shock the wicked in their comfort is not a pre-trib verse. It’s a judgment verse.

You want a rapture verse that happens before the tribulation? You don’t have one. You never have. You’ve got nothing but Scofield footnotes, prophecy charts from the 1970s, and YouTube sermons by people who don’t know the difference between Israel and the Church. I gave you plain Scripture. Matthew 24:29 — “Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather his elect.” I gave you the early Church — Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, all of them placing the Church in tribulation before Christ returns. I gave you Paul — who says it happens at the last trumpet, not some secret prequel. And you gave me… nothing but noise.

You’re not contending for the faith. You’re regurgitating Zionist fan fiction, dressed up in King James English, and shouting down anyone who dares to read the Bible without Scofield glasses. The truth is, you’re terrified of suffering. That’s what this is really about. You want a theological escape hatch so you don’t have to endure the fire. But Jesus didn’t promise escape — He promised victory through tribulation. “He that endures to the end shall be saved.” Not he who gets vacuumed out in advance.

So go ahead and mock. Quote another out-of-context verse and pretend it proves something. But I’m not the one rewriting Scripture. You are. I’m not the one ignoring Jesus. You are. And I’m not the one setting up the Church to be blindsided by what’s coming. That’s you — pushing a lie so dangerous that it will leave millions unprepared, faithless, and confused when tribulation comes and there’s no evacuation.

You don’t need another debate. You need to repent. Because what you’re defending isn’t the Gospel. It’s a theological fairy tale — one that turns the Lamb of God into a getaway driver and leaves the Church asleep in her pew while the Beast rises. And when it all comes crashing down, you’ll remember that you were warned.

Not by Scofield. Not by Darby. But by the words of Christ Himself.

So go ahead and mock. Quote another out-of-context verse

Calm down and use scripture.
Stop all that dead man spew and defend your doctrine outside of all those ridiculous props.

Yes we see all your defending and condemning of dead men.

What drives you into all that nothing burger nonsense????

You don’t need another debate. You need to repent. Because what you’re defending isn’t the Gospe

Address this;
The AC kills all without the mark.
rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

every man woman and child refusing the mark is beheaded

if the word of God is true then none of you make it through the tribulation
just go "concept for concept" no smokescreens of extra biblical dead men diversions
and accusing anybody opposing you .

the antichrist is given power
over the saints, and he overcomes them.

We can all see there is no such post tribulation rapture

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Yes i quoted it. As opposed to you quoting PART OF IT

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

My point is IT SAYS before the flood
it says the coming of the son of man will be before the flood

it says the setting for the coming of the son of man
before the flood,
will be normal life and normal activities

it says the ones taken
will be taken before the flood

we both know why you have a severe problem with all of that



Your doctrine has the wicked taken
lol
yep your reversed it in your brilliant theology

So let me get this straight — you’re now claiming that Jesus comes “before the flood” because the eating and drinking happened before the ark door closed? That’s your airtight rapture theology? You’ve officially jumped the shark. That’s not exegesis — that’s fanfiction with a Scofield sticker slapped on top.

Here’s what the passage actually says, and I’ll use the whole thing since you clearly think quoting full blocks of text makes false doctrine magically true:

“As it was in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;
so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
— Matthew 24:37–39

You want the full quote? There it is. And it says exactly what I said it did.
Jesus directly compares His coming to the flood. And what happened in the flood?

“The flood came and took them all away.”

The wicked were taken.
The righteous were preserved.
The judgment came suddenly while people were busy doing “normal life.”
That’s the context.

The phrase “before the flood” simply sets the scene — Jesus is describing the attitude of the wicked right before judgment hits. That’s the point. They’re eating, drinking, distracted — and then BOOM: wiped out. That is the “taking.” You twisting that into “a pre-trib rapture before the flood” is like watching someone get hit by a train and calling it a wedding procession.

So yes — in this context, being “taken” is clearly negative.
Jesus even says “so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
You’re literally arguing that being taken = saved in a passage where being taken means drowning under God’s wrath.

You are not interpreting Scripture — you’re running it through a theological meat grinder to keep your Darby timeline alive.

And I’m supposed to be impressed that you quoted the whole paragraph? All you did was prove that you’re reading the ingredients list on a poison bottle and still drinking it anyway.

Your “rapture” isn’t biblical.
Your timeline is absolute nonsense.
And your inability to see that “taken” = judged in a passage explicitly comparing it to the flood isn’t just bad theology — it’s willful blindness.

There is no pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24.
There is no secret second coming.
There is no Scofield escape clause.

There is one return — after tribulation — in power and glory, where Jesus gathers His elect and destroys the wicked.

You don’t get to flip the script and call judgment salvation just because it fits your prophecy chart.
You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re actively butchering it.
And you’re leading others to do the same.

So don’t quote more verses. You’ve quoted plenty.
Try understanding one of them before you post again.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So let me get this straight — you’re now claiming that Jesus comes “before the flood” because the eating and drinking happened before the ark door closed? That’s your airtight rapture theology? You’ve officially jumped the shark. That’s not exegesis — that’s fanfiction with a Scofield sticker slapped on top.

Here’s what the passage actually says, and I’ll use the whole thing since you clearly think quoting full blocks of text makes false doctrine magically true:

“As it was in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;
so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
— Matthew 24:37–39

You want the full quote? There it is. And it says exactly what I said it did.
Jesus directly compares His coming to the flood. And what happened in the flood?

“The flood came and took them all away.”

The wicked were taken.
The righteous were preserved.
The judgment came suddenly while people were busy doing “normal life.”
That’s the context.

The phrase “before the flood” simply sets the scene — Jesus is describing the attitude of the wicked right before judgment hits. That’s the point. They’re eating, drinking, distracted — and then BOOM: wiped out. That is the “taking.” You twisting that into “a pre-trib rapture before the flood” is like watching someone get hit by a train and calling it a wedding procession.

So yes — in this context, being “taken” is clearly negative.
Jesus even says “so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
You’re literally arguing that being taken = saved in a passage where being taken means drowning under God’s wrath.

You are not interpreting Scripture — you’re running it through a theological meat grinder to keep your Darby timeline alive.

And I’m supposed to be impressed that you quoted the whole paragraph? All you did was prove that you’re reading the ingredients list on a poison bottle and still drinking it anyway.

Your “rapture” isn’t biblical.
Your timeline is absolute nonsense.
And your inability to see that “taken” = judged in a passage explicitly comparing it to the flood isn’t just bad theology — it’s willful blindness.

There is no pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24.
There is no secret second coming.
There is no Scofield escape clause.

There is one return — after tribulation — in power and glory, where Jesus gathers His elect and destroys the wicked.

You don’t get to flip the script and call judgment salvation just because it fits your prophecy chart.
You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re actively butchering it.
And you’re leading others to do the same.

So don’t quote more verses. You’ve quoted plenty.
Try understanding one of them before you post again.

So don’t quote more verses. You’ve quoted plenty.
Try understanding one of them before you post again.

Jesus said his coming is before the flood
please don't butcher it
it's what Jesus said.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Normal life.. as opposed to your Tribulation chaos world
believers taken pretriulation...as opposed to your theory that half the words wicked are taken pretribulation
Watch pre flood pre tribulation and be ready
i mean every single thing of your doctrine is against those verses
your doctrine has half the world's population taken pre tribulation (huh??? half the world is saved?) (wicked taken before the flood?)
your doctrine has a wicked satan worshipper in bed with a believer...huh?
and get this... Jesus said to watch be ready and pray
it's totally bizarre what post tribbers do with those verses
because the wicked supposedly are told to watch and to pray and be ready
HUH?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You want the full quote? There it is. And it says exactly what I said it did.
Jesus directly compares His coming to the flood. And what happened in the flood?

NOPE
He compares it to
before the flood
So sorry to see that there was no wicked that perished before the flood as you are insisting

 

[rebuilder 454]

So let me get this straight — you’re now claiming that Jesus comes “before the flood” because the eating and drinking happened before the ark door closed? That’s your airtight rapture theology? You’ve officially jumped the shark. That’s not exegesis — that’s fanfiction with a Scofield sticker slapped on top.

Here’s what the passage actually says, and I’ll use the whole thing since you clearly think quoting full blocks of text makes false doctrine magically true:

“As it was in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;
so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
— Matthew 24:37–39

You want the full quote? There it is. And it says exactly what I said it did.
Jesus directly compares His coming to the flood. And what happened in the flood?

“The flood came and took them all away.”

The wicked were taken.
The righteous were preserved.
The judgment came suddenly while people were busy doing “normal life.”
That’s the context.

The phrase “before the flood” simply sets the scene — Jesus is describing the attitude of the wicked right before judgment hits. That’s the point. They’re eating, drinking, distracted — and then BOOM: wiped out. That is the “taking.” You twisting that into “a pre-trib rapture before the flood” is like watching someone get hit by a train and calling it a wedding procession.

So yes — in this context, being “taken” is clearly negative.
Jesus even says “so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”
You’re literally arguing that being taken = saved in a passage where being taken means drowning under God’s wrath.

You are not interpreting Scripture — you’re running it through a theological meat grinder to keep your Darby timeline alive.

And I’m supposed to be impressed that you quoted the whole paragraph? All you did was prove that you’re reading the ingredients list on a poison bottle and still drinking it anyway.

Your “rapture” isn’t biblical.
Your timeline is absolute nonsense.
And your inability to see that “taken” = judged in a passage explicitly comparing it to the flood isn’t just bad theology — it’s willful blindness.

There is no pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24.
There is no secret second coming.
There is no Scofield escape clause.

There is one return — after tribulation — in power and glory, where Jesus gathers His elect and destroys the wicked.

You don’t get to flip the script and call judgment salvation just because it fits your prophecy chart.
You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re actively butchering it.
And you’re leading others to do the same.

So don’t quote more verses. You’ve quoted plenty.
Try understanding one of them before you post again.

The reason you keep misquoting Matthew 24 is because you have a doctrine that I am totally destroying.
All I am doing is showing you what Jesus said
when you follow men and their doctrines they will eventually make a fool out of you

 

[rebuilder 454]

Some people in here are so immersed in labels and doctrine that they even tell me to quit quoting scripture

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The reason you keep misquoting Matthew 24 is because you have a doctrine that I am totally destroying.
All I am doing is showing you what Jesus said
when you follow men and their doctrines they will eventually make a fool out of you

No, what you’re doing is not “showing what Jesus said.” You’re butchering what Jesus said, stapling Scofield’s fantasy timeline to the side of it, and pretending that your cut-and-paste theology somehow qualifies as divine revelation.

Let’s stop pretending you’re quoting Jesus. You’re quoting your misreading of Jesus, filtered through a Darby lens, wrapped in Zionist propaganda, footnoted by Scofield, and regurgitated by a generation of prophecy grifters who never learned how to actually read the Bible — they just memorized charts and repeated slogans.

You keep yelling "Jesus said before the flood!" as if that's a timeline for a pre-trib rapture. But it’s not. It’s literally just a setting. The people were living normal lives before the flood, oblivious to what was coming. That’s the warning — not a timestamp for evacuation. It’s about sudden judgment, not escape.

And your line — “so sorry to see there was no wicked that perished before the flood” — is so embarrassingly off-base it’s almost not worth responding to. That’s the entire point of the flood. It was a worldwide purge of the wicked. Jesus says the flood came and took them all away — then says His coming will be just like that. That’s not salvation. That’s damnation.

You keep trying to make “taken” a good thing, but the context crushes you every time. The flood took the wicked. Noah was left behind, preserved through judgment. That’s what Jesus is referencing. That's what you keep dodging.

Your Scofield doctrine has you reading judgment passages as rescue missions, and wrath as reward. That’s not theology — that’s delusion. That’s what happens when you base your eschatology on footnotes instead of Scripture.

Matthew 24:29-31 says, Immediately after the tribulation... He will gather His elect. That’s the only timeline Jesus gives. But you’ve thrown it out. Why? Because your doctrine demands Jesus show up early to match a model invented in 1830 by a man no church in history ever followed until Oxford Zionists shoved his heresy into American seminaries.

So here’s what’s really happening:
You’re not quoting Jesus. You’re contradicting Him.
You’re not destroying a doctrine. You’re swinging at the truth and getting knocked out by the text every time.
And you’re not defending Scripture. You’re defending a lie that tells the Church to sit around and wait to be rescued instead of preparing to endure and overcome.

Jesus said, He that endures to the end shall be saved.
You say, He that gets raptured before things get hard shall be saved.
Your version isn’t in the Bible. It’s in Scofield’s margins. And you’re defending it like your life depends on it — when it’s your soul that should.

You’re not contending for the faith.
You’re a walking cautionary tale — a loud, arrogant example of what happens when people let prophecy peddlers write their theology.

So go ahead — quote another verse, rip it out of context, and pretend it means something it doesn’t. You’ve done it in every reply so far.

But know this: you’re not fighting me. You’re fighting the words of Christ Himself.
And when the tribulation does come — and there is no pre-trib escape — you’ll remember exactly who warned you.

Not Darby.
Not Scofield.
Not your pastor.
Jesus Christ — and everyone who still believes what He actually said.

 

[soberxp]

This question is like asking whether the flesh can enter heaven. Of course not.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This question is like asking whether the flesh can enter heaven. Of course not.

Jesus is there in body as are the saints from paradise.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, what you’re doing is not “showing what Jesus said.” You’re butchering what Jesus said, stapling Scofield’s fantasy timeline to the side of it, and pretending that your cut-and-paste theology somehow qualifies as divine revelation.

Let’s stop pretending you’re quoting Jesus. You’re quoting your misreading of Jesus, filtered through a Darby lens, wrapped in Zionist propaganda, footnoted by Scofield, and regurgitated by a generation of prophecy grifters who never learned how to actually read the Bible — they just memorized charts and repeated slogans.

You keep yelling "Jesus said before the flood!" as if that's a timeline for a pre-trib rapture. But it’s not. It’s literally just a setting. The people were living normal lives before the flood, oblivious to what was coming. That’s the warning — not a timestamp for evacuation. It’s about sudden judgment, not escape.

And your line — “so sorry to see there was no wicked that perished before the flood” — is so embarrassingly off-base it’s almost not worth responding to. That’s the entire point of the flood. It was a worldwide purge of the wicked. Jesus says the flood came and took them all away — then says His coming will be just like that. That’s not salvation. That’s damnation.

You keep trying to make “taken” a good thing, but the context crushes you every time. The flood took the wicked. Noah was left behind, preserved through judgment. That’s what Jesus is referencing. That's what you keep dodging.

Your Scofield doctrine has you reading judgment passages as rescue missions, and wrath as reward. That’s not theology — that’s delusion. That’s what happens when you base your eschatology on footnotes instead of Scripture.

Matthew 24:29-31 says, Immediately after the tribulation... He will gather His elect. That’s the only timeline Jesus gives. But you’ve thrown it out. Why? Because your doctrine demands Jesus show up early to match a model invented in 1830 by a man no church in history ever followed until Oxford Zionists shoved his heresy into American seminaries.

So here’s what’s really happening:
You’re not quoting Jesus. You’re contradicting Him.
You’re not destroying a doctrine. You’re swinging at the truth and getting knocked out by the text every time.
And you’re not defending Scripture. You’re defending a lie that tells the Church to sit around and wait to be rescued instead of preparing to endure and overcome.

Jesus said, He that endures to the end shall be saved.
You say, He that gets raptured before things get hard shall be saved.
Your version isn’t in the Bible. It’s in Scofield’s margins. And you’re defending it like your life depends on it — when it’s your soul that should.

You’re not contending for the faith.
You’re a walking cautionary tale — a loud, arrogant example of what happens when people let prophecy peddlers write their theology.

So go ahead — quote another verse, rip it out of context, and pretend it means something it doesn’t. You’ve done it in every reply so far.

But know this: you’re not fighting me. You’re fighting the words of Christ Himself.
And when the tribulation does come — and there is no pre-trib escape — you’ll remember exactly who warned you.

Not Darby.
Not Scofield.
Not your pastor.
Jesus Christ — and everyone who still believes what He actually said.

The AC kills all the saints.
Anyone refusing the mark is killed.
That alone debunks any hope of running from cave to cave escaping the AC.
No such thing as making it through the trib.