IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

You're still in Daniel and stuck, and am in All Scripture = Holy Bible, the New Testament of Jesus Christ.

Where the Son of GOD determines the prophecy of Daniel which is in part, giving His version in the New Testament.

For He and the church face the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. and not Daniel nor the patriarchs, period

Therefore we're not like you who work around the scriptures, but we work with and on the scriptures, 'As it is written' or 'For it is written'.

For example, Daniel prophesy the Great Tribulation is for 7 years, but the Son of GOD who came later prophesy to His church, GOD has shortened it to 3 1/2 years.

Who's greater, Daniel or the Son of GOD?

You sound to us like according to what Apostle Paul mentioned to us about, 'the sneaked in Jews' to our faith.

You're full of vain words and lack of action to the context of the scripture and teaching testaments.

Smh

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, thou heretics, where is the scripture quote to justify the underline words above??

Colossians 1:
18. And He is the Head of the body, the church(Jew and Gentile believers): who is the beginning, the firstborn(firstfruit) from the dead((resurrection); that in all things He might have the preeminence.

There's no patriarchs mentioned as the firstborn or firstfruit from the dead with Christ, it's just your 'heresy'!

Give us the Bible verse when did the patriarchs resurrect, or resurrected with Christ as 'firstfruits'??

Give us the Bible verse where is written paradise is under the earth??

When we discern Biblically, graves of dead people buried are under the earth and the patriarchs are 'asleep'.

And paradise described in the beginning was on earth, the garden eastward in Eden where a river went out to water it, and parted hence becoming four common rivers on earth.

And in the garden there is the 'tree of life', where now Cherubims and a flaming sword placed, to keep out anyone from entering. Therefore since, to creature's natural eyes this garden is unseen or in other words, 'invisible'.

It's unlike your own description of paradise under the earth, where probably they're awake and having a ball there while temporarily waiting?

We only have verse, the spirits that rebelled during Noah's time are imprisoned or chained under the earth.

And when Christ was in the heart of the earth, meaning He died and buried, He visited and ministered unto them.

We also read satan will be bound in chain and cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years.

You too stop lying about the Holy Bible and not knowing your brethren!

You lied when you call ANYONE a heretic over non essentials.
You think heaven is on the edge of their seat hoping you get end times sorted out.????

So yes please stop lying about us who challenge you.
Helfire is not my portion.
Stop lying please.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, thou heretics, where is the scripture quote to justify the underline words above??

Colossians 1:
18. And He is the Head of the body, the church(Jew and Gentile believers): who is the beginning, the firstborn(firstfruit) from the dead((resurrection); that in all things He might have the preeminence.

There's no patriarchs mentioned as the firstborn or firstfruit from the dead with Christ, it's just your 'heresy'!

Give us the Bible verse when did the patriarchs resurrect, or resurrected with Christ as 'firstfruits'??

Give us the Bible verse where is written paradise is under the earth??

When we discern Biblically, graves of dead people buried are under the earth and the patriarchs are 'asleep'.

And paradise described in the beginning was on earth, the garden eastward in Eden where a river went out to water it, and parted hence becoming four common rivers on earth.

And in the garden there is the 'tree of life', where now Cherubims and a flaming sword placed, to keep out anyone from entering. Therefore since, to creature's natural eyes this garden is unseen or in other words, 'invisible'.

It's unlike your own description of paradise under the earth, where probably they're awake and having a ball there while temporarily waiting?

We only have verse, the spirits that rebelled during Noah's time are imprisoned or chained under the earth.

And when Christ was in the heart of the earth, meaning He died and buried, He visited and ministered unto them.

We also read satan will be bound in chain and cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years.

You too stop lying about the Holy Bible and not knowing your brethren!

QUOTE
"""Colossians 1:
18. And He is the Head of the body, the church(Jew and Gentile believers): who is the beginning, the firstborn(firstfruit) from the dead((resurrection); that in all things He might have the preeminence.

There's no patriarchs mentioned as the firstborn or firstfruit from the dead with Christ, it's just your 'heresy'!"""

NO PATRIRCH IS FIRSTBORN.
SO PLEASE DO STOP MISREPRESENTING ME.

You are preaching to the Chior.
I am way more knowledgeable than you ON THE ESSENTIALS.
You sound ridiculous in that you have no knowledge of the descending of Jesus to paradise to preach the gospel to the patrirchs held in paradise , then the FACT that they resurrected AND WERE SEEN WALKING THE STREETS OF JERUSALEM.

THAT MAKES THEM FIRSTRUITS OF THE 1st RESURRECTION.
SMH.

Google "paradise moved to heaven after Jesus emptied it."

Without that knowledge you are hampered in your Bible view and eschatology.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Double post

 

[Fred J]

QUOTE
"""Colossians 1:
18. And He is the Head of the body, the church(Jew and Gentile believers): who is the beginning, the firstborn(firstfruit) from the dead((resurrection); that in all things He might have the preeminence.

There's no patriarchs mentioned as the firstborn or firstfruit from the dead with Christ, it's just your 'heresy'!"""

NO PATRIRCH IS FIRSTBORN.
SO PLEASE DO STOP MISREPRESENTING ME.

The FIRSTFRUITS ARE Jesus and the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth.

This is your quote, and now you're changing your words, how can anyone trust you, when you're neither here nor there?

 

[Fred J]

You are preaching to the Chior.
I am way more knowledgeable than you ON THE ESSENTIALS.
You sound ridiculous in that you have no knowledge of the descending of Jesus to paradise to preach the gospel to the patrirchs held in paradise , then the FACT that they resurrected AND WERE SEEN WALKING THE STREETS OF JERUSALEM.

Quote first the scripture that writes, Jesus descended to paradise??

Second quote that writes, Jesus descended and preached to the patriarchs there??

Therefore also quote that writes, as Jesus died, the ones who came out of the grave were the 'patriarchs'??

The readers here are my witnesses, go on now!!

THAT MAKES THEM FIRSTRUITS OF THE 1st RESURRECTION.

That's you're heresy and you're proclaiming that 'fallacy' of your making, for scripture did not mention such about those came out their grave!!

Colossians 1:
18. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.

It's 'not plural' in the scripture, but you're adding to the scripture making it 'plural', and including those who came out of their grave, which 'heretics' do.

You're haughty and wise in your own conceit, fail to perceive, Christ is the 'firstborn from the first death buried'. Where second death had no power over Him and hold Him back from resurrecting, nor the 'born again' church at the 'first resurrection'. Since His body did not decay but remain the same, and came back to life on the third day, and to freely ascend to Heaven.

But the ones came out of the grave are fulfilling 'in part' the prophesy of Ezekiel, where literally 'dry bones coming back to life'. Their body 'did decay', but miraculously flesh formed back on their bones and they're back to their carnal or celestial body once again to live furthermore on earth.

Also they're sent back to their homes as a testament of that prophecy coming to pass. And Glory be to GOD for this happened at Christ's death on the Cross, including an earthquake and Temple curtain tearing into two. Ezekiel's prophecy of GOD's word also fulfilled, that, 'There will come a day when I MYSELF will shepherd MY lambs and sheep.'

Nevertheless, an earthen vessel when their time is up, they die and are buried, and their body still decay, and death have power over them once again. Unless in their lifetime being alive in their carnal or celestial body, by hearing the Gospel, they become 'born again'. And then second death have no power over them, they'll be like all dead in Christ, asleep until the 'first resurrection'.

SMH.

Google "paradise moved to heaven after Jesus emptied it."

Without that knowledge you are hampered in your Bible view and eschatology.

Only the Holy Bible is inspired by GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We use the word of GOD and Helper and Comforter the Holy Ghost, unlike you use the Google of man and are mislead like heretics.

We use Google, but Google must come inline with the inspired scriptures, and not the other way around.

You may 'tag' me with all the words you want, but apparently you're an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise when pushed over.

My time is up with you going back and forth, in 'twist' and 'turn' and in vain repetition, and get nowhere.

True born again readers, you perceive the labor put in for you and in your defense, exposing 'heretics', 'imposters', 'counterfeits' and 'sneaked in Jews'(Apostle Paul said it).

You may continue with me, and may GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help and bless you into the full truth.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

 

[rebuilder 454]

Quote first the scripture that writes, Jesus descended to paradise??

Second quote that writes, Jesus descended and preached to the patriarchs there??

Therefore also quote that writes, as Jesus died, the ones who came out of the grave were the 'patriarchs'??

The readers here are my witnesses, go on now!!


That's you're heresy and you're proclaiming that 'fallacy' of your making, for scripture did not mention such about those came out their grave!!

Colossians 1:
18. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.

It's 'not plural' in the scripture, but you're adding to the scripture making it 'plural', and including those who came out of their grave, which 'heretics' do.

You're haughty and wise in your own conceit, fail to perceive, Christ is the 'firstborn from the first death buried'. Where second death had no power over Him and hold Him back from resurrecting, nor the 'born again' church at the 'first resurrection'. Since His body did not decay but remain the same, and came back to life on the third day, and to freely ascend to Heaven.

But the ones came out of the grave are fulfilling 'in part' the prophesy of Ezekiel, where literally 'dry bones coming back to life'. Their body 'did decay', but miraculously flesh formed back on their bones and they're back to their carnal or celestial body once again to live furthermore on earth.

Also they're sent back to their homes as a testament of that prophecy coming to pass. And Glory be to GOD for this happened at Christ's death on the Cross, including an earthquake and Temple curtain tearing into two. Ezekiel's prophecy of GOD's word also fulfilled, that, 'There will come a day when I MYSELF will shepherd MY lambs and sheep.'

Nevertheless, an earthen vessel when their time is up, they die and are buried, and their body still decay, and death have power over them once again. Unless in their lifetime being alive in their carnal or celestial body, by hearing the Gospel, they become 'born again'. And then second death have no power over them, they'll be like all dead in Christ, asleep until the 'first resurrection'.

Only the Holy Bible is inspired by GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We use the word of GOD and Helper and Comforter the Holy Ghost, unlike you use the Google of man and are mislead like heretics.

We use Google, but Google must come inline with the inspired scriptures, and not the other way around.

You may 'tag' me with all the words you want, but apparently you're an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise when pushed over.

My time is up with you going back and forth, in 'twist' and 'turn' and in vain repetition, and get nowhere.

True born again readers, you perceive the labor put in for you and in your defense, exposing 'heretics', 'imposters', 'counterfeits' and 'sneaked in Jews'(Apostle Paul said it).

You may continue with me, and may GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help and bless you into the full truth.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

It is amazing your lack of interest in that dynamic.

What we see here is called "condemnation prior to investigation"

We all have fallen into that trap.

But yours is especially sick because you don't even try to get knowledge.
That teaching is ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

TIME WILL TELL IF YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE FOR TRUTH.

I can easily defend that dynamic.
WITH MY BIBLE.
But since you recklessly label me a heretic.. I will let you wade in your ignorance.

Stay unlearned.
But a word to the wise would be to not call a brother a heretic while making a fool out of yourself displaying your complete lack of knowledge.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Quote first the scripture that writes, Jesus descended to paradise??

Second quote that writes, Jesus descended and preached to the patriarchs there??

Therefore also quote that writes, as Jesus died, the ones who came out of the grave were the 'patriarchs'??

The readers here are my witnesses, go on now!!


That's you're heresy and you're proclaiming that 'fallacy' of your making, for scripture did not mention such about those came out their grave!!

Colossians 1:
18. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.

It's 'not plural' in the scripture, but you're adding to the scripture making it 'plural', and including those who came out of their grave, which 'heretics' do.

You're haughty and wise in your own conceit, fail to perceive, Christ is the 'firstborn from the first death buried'. Where second death had no power over Him and hold Him back from resurrecting, nor the 'born again' church at the 'first resurrection'. Since His body did not decay but remain the same, and came back to life on the third day, and to freely ascend to Heaven.

But the ones came out of the grave are fulfilling 'in part' the prophesy of Ezekiel, where literally 'dry bones coming back to life'. Their body 'did decay', but miraculously flesh formed back on their bones and they're back to their carnal or celestial body once again to live furthermore on earth.

Also they're sent back to their homes as a testament of that prophecy coming to pass. And Glory be to GOD for this happened at Christ's death on the Cross, including an earthquake and Temple curtain tearing into two. Ezekiel's prophecy of GOD's word also fulfilled, that, 'There will come a day when I MYSELF will shepherd MY lambs and sheep.'

Nevertheless, an earthen vessel when their time is up, they die and are buried, and their body still decay, and death have power over them once again. Unless in their lifetime being alive in their carnal or celestial body, by hearing the Gospel, they become 'born again'. And then second death have no power over them, they'll be like all dead in Christ, asleep until the 'first resurrection'.

Only the Holy Bible is inspired by GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We use the word of GOD and Helper and Comforter the Holy Ghost, unlike you use the Google of man and are mislead like heretics.

We use Google, but Google must come inline with the inspired scriptures, and not the other way around.

You may 'tag' me with all the words you want, but apparently you're an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise when pushed over.

My time is up with you going back and forth, in 'twist' and 'turn' and in vain repetition, and get nowhere.

True born again readers, you perceive the labor put in for you and in your defense, exposing 'heretics', 'imposters', 'counterfeits' and 'sneaked in Jews'(Apostle Paul said it).

You may continue with me, and may GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help and bless you into the full truth.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

QUOTE
""" You may 'tag' me with all the words you want, but apparently you're an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise when pushed over.""""

SMH

You little hot head.
You have no idea the uninformed fool you are making of yourself.

Stay unlearned.
It seems to be your banner of late.

Just plain ludicrous.
You are not well friend.
Maybe stop before furthering your display of ignorance of the bible.

 

[Fred J]

It is amazing your lack of interest in that dynamic.

What we see here is called "condemnation prior to investigation"

We all have fallen into that trap.

But yours is especially sick because you don't even try to get knowledge.
That teaching is ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

TIME WILL TELL IF YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE FOR TRUTH.

I can easily defend that dynamic.
WITH MY BIBLE.
But since you recklessly label me a heretic.. I will let you wade in your ignorance.

Stay unlearned.
But a word to the wise would be to not call a brother a heretic while making a fool out of yourself displaying your complete lack of knowledge.

No quotes, but, yada..., yada..., yada... boasting about teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)

 

[keithr]

QUOTE
""" You may 'tag' me with all the words you want, but apparently you're an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise when pushed over.""""

SMH

You little hot head.
You have no idea the uninformed fool you are making of yourself.

Stay unlearned.
It seems to be your banner of late.

Just plain ludicrous.
You are not well friend.
Maybe stop before furthering your display of ignorance of the bible.

Let's try to not forget:

Galatians 5:22-26 (WEB):

(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,​

(23) gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.​

(24) Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.​

(25) If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.​

(26) Let’s not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.​

1 Thessalonians 5:12-15 (WEB):

(12) But we beg you, brothers, to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you,​

(13) and to respect and honor them in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.​

(14) We exhort you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, encourage the faint-hearted, support the weak, be patient toward all.​

(15) See that no one returns evil for evil to anyone, but always follow after that which is good, for one another, and for all.​

 

[rebuilder 454]

No quotes, but, yada..., yada..., yada... boasting about teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)

Not doing your homework.
Our back and forth is over your inability to investigate a clear sound doctrine.
By me doing YOUR investigation, just solidifies your problem of no desire to understand what "took captivity captive" means, what Jesus told the thief on the cross entailed, what the lesson is from the rich man and Lazarus dynamic is, what David meant when he said " you shall not leave my soul in sheole" means, and what on earth do you do with the patriarchs risen from the dead, and RECOGNIZED WALKING THE STREETS of Jerusalem??????

All that you could easily INVESTIGATE.
But no, you want somebody to do it for you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's try to not forget:

Galatians 5:22-26 (WEB):

(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,​

(23) gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.​

(24) Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.​

(25) If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.​

(26) Let’s not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.​

1 Thessalonians 5:12-15 (WEB):

(12) But we beg you, brothers, to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you,​

(13) and to respect and honor them in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.​

(14) We exhort you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, encourage the faint-hearted, support the weak, be patient toward all.​

(15) See that no one returns evil for evil to anyone, but always follow after that which is good, for one another, and for all.​

...and let's not forget when Jesus confronted those religious people of his day ,that also REFUSED PRESENTATION of plain truth, He also came down on them hard.
I am dealing here with a member with a religious spirit.

He ignorantly calls me a heretic.
He is not only unlearned, but when challenged to investigate , I get more of the same defiance, put downs, and ridiculous blather.

Odd that the one slinging "heretic" label to me, a man with truth grounded in the word of God, gets a pass by you , but I am told by you to love bomb the spirit operating in him.

The reason Jesus was arrested was because those same spirits that I am dealing with in fredj were operating in those religious people falsely accusing him.

Even his claim of "heretic" against me, if you bother to check, is totally out of whack.
He has me saying something I never did.

He needs to go on ignore.
I am not here to play games

Will await your proper rebuke of that member falsely slinging accusations.

 

[Fred J]

Not doing your homework.
Our back and forth is over your inability to investigate a clear sound doctrine.
By me doing YOUR investigation, just solidifies your problem of no desire to understand what "took captivity captive" means, what Jesus told the thief on the cross entailed, what the lesson is from the rich man and Lazarus dynamic is, what David meant when he said " you shall not leave my soul in sheole" means, and what on earth do you do with the patriarchs risen from the dead, and RECOGNIZED WALKING THE STREETS of Jerusalem??????

All that you could easily INVESTIGATE.
But no, you want somebody to do it for you.

Dear readers,

Matthew 27:
52. And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

First of all, it reads, 'many' bodies of the saints, and not 'all'.

Second it doesn't read, 'bodies of many or all the patriarchs or fathers, of Israel'. period

When the scripture read about the 'patriarchs of Israel', they are those whom GOD specifically made covenants with and used to lead the people of Israel, and are devout servants of GOD.

Covenants, even in regards their 'descendants', whereby there're believer saints and believer rebels within the 12 clans or tribes of Israel/Jacob.

For example of these saints, they can be alive or 'dead' abiding in the scriptures and the coming of the Messiah, during or before Jesus's lifetime.

John 1:
47. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Luke 2:
25. And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

36. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

Why not our given testament is 'just', that 'saints' like these but who've been dead, are the many who arose from their graves.

Compared to our disputer 'rebuilder 45' claims, 'the patriarchs of Israel' rose from their grave that day at Christ's resurrection??

And these are ones will be taken at the 'first resurrection'?? (Revelation 20:5)

Indeed he's a 'rebuilder' of GOD's word and dogma, and leaving behind a trail of 'heresy' dogma.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

The FIRSTFRUITS ARE Jesus and the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth.

Dear readers,

The scripture clearly read, Jesus alone in is the 'firstfruit' or 'firstborn' from the dead or of the resurrection. (Colossians 1:18)

But 'rebuilder 454' disputes and quoted, that the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth, are FIRSTFRUIT'S' together with Jesus in the resurrection??

Now is GOD a liar or man a liar, can you readers please straighten this out, thank you??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

...and let's not forget when Jesus confronted those religious people of his day ,that also REFUSED PRESENTATION of plain truth, He also came down on them hard.

I can't think of an example of Jesus calling people names and throwing insults at people. He always spoke firmly but with love and sympathy for their fallen condition.

Odd that the one slinging "heretic" label to me, a man with truth grounded in the word of God, gets a pass by you , but I am told by you to love bomb the spirit operating in him.

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that post just at you! I just quoted your previous post as the most recent example in the discussion of posts not written with an attitude of peace, kindness, gentleness and love. That's why I said "Let us try not to forget" to be friendly with our posts, concentrating on the subject rather than the poster. It's all to easy to forget that when we're sat in front of a computer in our homes (or wherever) rather than being stood in front of somebody and speaking with them. I don't enjoy reading posts that are unfriendly. We should be nicer to our future family members who we'll hopefully be spending eternity with!

 

[keithr]

Matthew 27:
52. And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

Second it doesn't read, 'bodies of many or all the patriarchs or fathers, of Israel'. period

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

 

[rebuilder 454]

I can't think of an example of Jesus calling people names and throwing insults at people. He always spoke firmly but with love and sympathy for their fallen condition.


Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that post just at you! I just quoted your previous post as the most recent example in the discussion of posts not written with an attitude of peace, kindness, gentleness and love. That's why I said "Let us try not to forget" to be friendly with our posts, concentrating on the subject rather than the poster. It's all to easy to forget that when we're sat in front of a computer in our homes (or wherever) rather than being stood in front of somebody and speaking with them. I don't enjoy reading posts that are unfriendly. We should be nicer to our future family members who we'll hopefully be spending eternity with!

QUOTE
"""can't think of an example of Jesus calling people names and throwing insults at people. He always spoke firmly but with love and sympathy for their fallen condition."""

Huh?
Here is a few out of over 20 verses in direct conflict with your understanding.
It is a little tedious doing basic bible education for you and Fred j.

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 22:18
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matt 12
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Really????
You do not know the 3 things Jesus was hard on and unloving????
1) the devil
2) the rich
3) RELIGIOUS UNLEARNED LEGALISTS "CORRECTING" HIM OUT OF TOTAL IGNORANCE

You coddle a man that is ignorant of his Bible, and calls me a heretic while he stands ignorantly "correcting" me.
He refuses to investigate the "paradise taken to heaven" dynamic, and when I push back at his rank meanness, you come along and defend the lies.

You need to go back and examine his silly tirade against me.
Hello..I even told him to back off and get educated.

Police him.
Not me.
I only Push back at his lies against me.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

David said " you will not leave my soul in sheole"
Referring to his revelation on paradise.

Look, it WAS NOT JUST the patriarchs in paradise.
IT WAS ALL THAT DIED IN FAITH.
Ruth
Naomi
Noah
JTB
Thousands of men and women.

But it goes to a lack of understanding of Jesus the redeemer.
The REASON for paradise was because those patriachs ( patriarchs meaning those that died in faith BEFORE US. They are patriarchs using the term losely) had DIED IN FAITH. JESUS HAD NOT yet been sacrificed.
They were not in heaven, because the PAYMENT HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.
Jesus went to paradise, preached the gospel, raised them from the dead, and TOOK THEM TO HEAVEN.

That study is unbelievably basic.
WE learned this back in the 70's.
I am appalled at the lack of teaching the modern church is found in..

But even worse is the lack of interest and investigation of this modern church era.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

QUOTE
"""However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!"""

It is bad you believe that.
But worse that is declared by you with authority and it is 100% conjecture .

It comes from not knowing the purpose of paradise and the gospel redemption.

Not to mention the bible is against both of you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't know why but lately I have encountered this in different arenas in the body of Christ, where they are totally unlearned about Jesus preaching the gospel in paradise and taking those patriarchs (or "saints", or "those that died in faith" or "whatever you wanna call them before the cross") and took them to heaven.

Our men's Bible class did the same thing and accused me of making it up. ( same spirit I encounter here on the board), but when I took them down wisdom road they now have that knowledge.

Weird.