IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Fred J]

I referenced a book and chapter in the New testament.
Many prefer a particular version of the Bible. Therefore,being that Matthew 24 speaks to the pre-tribulation rapture, I find it best to share book and chapter so that readers may read a chapter in full context of it's message.

Being this is indeed a Bible study forum , it is presumed members have a Bible. Or, a link to a preferred on-line Bible site.

That you prefer a verse be posted,here you go.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Thank you, ahhh...... very refreshing, so you reckon the rapture will take place at mid-Great Tribulation, before the wrath of GOD on the ungodly.

Where in Matthew chapter 24 or in other verses, read that the rapture shall take place at mid-Great Tribulation?

We have Revelation 7:14, where the church saints in Heaven were said to have come out of Great Tribulation.

Also Revelation 20:4, where church saints in Heaven which underwent the persecution of anti-Christ worldwide against Holy Bible believing and faithful Christians.

They are spoken of in that verse after ant-Christ and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

And after too satan who possessed anti-Christ, is bond in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Likewise these church saints too reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:1-3)

These same church saints who took part in the 'first resurrection', the 'rapture', and from the clouds taken to Heaven. (Revelation 20:5&6/1Thessalonians4:16&17)

Since prior to that and until the rapture, Christ alone been the 'firstfruit or firstborn of resurrection'. (Colossians 1:18)

Doesn't these scriptures support the rapture happened after the Great Tribulation, since the church saints came out of Great Tribulation?

Also Isaiah 11:6-9, speaks about the millennial Kingdom ruled by Christ, and why is it only 'millennial' and not forever?

Therefore this prophecy of Isaiah does collaborates with the thousand years church saints in Heaven reigned with Christ, and thousand years satan bound in the bottomless pit.

But the draw back is, in the prophecy speaks about the wolf dwell with lamb and the leopard with kid, and a little child shall lead the calf, the young lion and the fatling, and etc. Apparently this millennial event takes place on earth, and lamb, kid, little child Biblically refers to GOD'S people ruled by Christ. And 'beasts' Biblically refers to kingdoms on earth, where there'll be a millennial time of peace between Christ's church and the world.

Now is this also referring to during the first resurrection or rapture, one will be taken to Heaven and the other one will be left behind on earth?

So after the Great Tribulation the first resurrection or rapture takes place, and after that starts the millennial reign of Christ with the saints in Heaven. Therefore the saints left behind on earth also ruled by Christ, have peace with the world. Then after the thousand years finishes, satan will be loosed again to deceive the nations on the earth once again.

Friends, this is not a debate, but iron sharpening iron, don't take my word for it. Am may not be precise since future events a mystery and verses are here and there in the Holy Bible to puzzle it together. And now i have one verse that conflicts with my strong theory with Biblical references.

The Holy Ghost is our Helper and Comforter and will lead us into the full truth, be patience and wait, and if you have spiritual ears, listen and pay attention.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

I knew you would get that one muddied up also.

That is why I knew not to even discuss it with you.

As predicted ,you transposed it.

You don't have to, the scripture exposes the spirit of error from the spirit of truth based on the discussion.

You tend to rant and rail, and it's pointless to discuss with heart hardened people.

No, thank you.

 

[keithr]

Doesn't these scriptures support the rapture happened after the Great Tribulation, since the church saints came out of Great Tribulation?

Many Christians don't understand that there are two classes of saints - those that lived before the resurrection and rapture, and those that became saints after the rapture. The early Church fathers understood that; I recently watched this video which explains that - More Pre-Darby Rapture Finds throughout Church History. It's worth a watch.

 

[Taken]

Paradise IS the place WHERE the Tree of Life IS.

The TREE of Life, IS Gods TRUTH.

Gods TRUTH IS Gods WORD.

Gods WORD comes forth OUT from Gods Mouth, While Remaining IN God.

Gods WORD is “Named” JESUS.
Gods WORD is “Titled” CHRIST, Lord, (Etc.)
Gods WORD is “Described”, First, Life, (Etc.)
Gods WORD is God.

Paradise IS where Gods Truth IS.
Paradise IS where Gods Tree of Life IS.

Human men CAN take a Bite of Gods WORD…
Roll it around in THEIR mouth…;
CALLED…ENLIGHTENMENT.

A human man CAN freely…believe it, wonder about it, doubt it, deny it….
CALLED… TASTING.

A human man CAN freely…SPIT IT OUT.
A human man CAN freely…
again and again…Hear Gods WORD…
Be enlightened…
Be Tasting…
Eat SOME,
DENY SOME, SPIT IT OUT.

It is WHEN a human man, Freely Chooses…
To ACCEPT the Enlightenment…
To ACCEPT the Tasting…
** To EAT the WHOLE WORD…
(Face value…WITHOUT Yet “Understanding”)

** Such human man BECOMES IN Gods “FAVOR”….TO BE, SET ASIDE, “WITH God”, SEPARATED From Others “NOT WITH God.”

* “IF” that human, ENDURES, REMAINS. WITH God (until the moment that humans Flesh body Dies),,,
* Such Human, Shall Remain in Gods Favor.
* Such Human, Shall BECOME “Acceptable” Unto God, For God, TO KEEP, CLAIM, REDEEM, RESURRECT, Glorify that human…
First Resurrection.

* “IF” a human…Takes his Life’s Journey..
Hearing, Being Enlightened, Tasting, Believing (in his heart)…
* Making his FREEWILL CALLING TO Jesus…
* CONFESSING his Hearts Belief TO Jesus…
* FREELY GIVING his bodily life unto Death, WITH JESUS’ bodily Death…

*THEN… is that humans (Heartful Confessed TRUTH (searched… ie. VERIFIED, By God that that mans Confession BE True,)

* YES? True?
* ONE Death bodily Death “Requirement” Fulfilled!!!
* THAT human man… Fully Prepared in Gods Favor, Acceptable unto God…
* GIVEN Gods GIFT of Soul Salvation…
* GIVEN Gods Promise of GODS SEED.. (mans spirit reborn, and can Never Die).
* GIVEN Gods Promise TO FOREVER Be WITH God, and God WITH the man.
* GIVEN. Gods Promise to Escape Gods Tribulations and Wrath to be Sent Down from Heaven.
( Remembering… God Himself is NOT ON the Earth, While He IS Sending His Tribulations and Wrath Upon the The Whole Earth!! )

“Takeaway…
Salvation unto a human man, IS established while the human man is bodily alive ( in his own life… Blood).
Salvation unto a human man IS given (True Heartfull confessed / verified believers) after the mans one time bodily death requirement is accomplished.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Fred J]

Many Christians don't understand that there are two classes of saints - those that lived before the resurrection and rapture,

1 Thessalonians 4:16&17

and those that became saints after the rapture.

Revelation 6:11

Also according to the parable of the Ten Virgins and prophecy, one will be taken and the other left behind.

The parable of the Ten Virgins, the ten were 'virgins', unblemished during the Lord's return.

But merely half of them were 'ready' and 'prepared', while the other half were 'ready' and 'unprepared'.

Meaning to the mystery is, '5' of them were 'ready' scripturally and according to the signs of their time that the Lord's return is soon. But also furthermore scripturally they too perceived and were 'prepared', that the Lord will be a little late in His coming. And there'll be a 'void' and 'neglected' moment to their faith waiting, as to fall asleep in that moment. Nevertheless, they had an extra boost of faith when they were awoke suddenly to go and meet Him.

The other '5', likewise at the same time were scripturally 'ready' of His return soon according to signs of their time. But on the other hand, were scripturally 'unprepared' that His coming will be a little late. Therefore at the same time of 'void' and 'neglected' moment of their faith, as too fell asleep at the same time. In return, they had no that extra boost of faith when they were suddenly awoke to go and meet Him. Were apparently dazzled and were trying to go back and find more composure backing their faith, and by the time the door is closed and rapture's over.

There are church saints who are living and remain, and 'ready' during the rapture, but since 'unprepared', were left behind on earth, probably until Christ's millennial reign is over.

Again, please don't take my word for it, do a study and let's discuss. thank you.

The early Church fathers understood that; I recently watched this video which explains that - More Pre-Darby Rapture Finds throughout Church History. It's worth a watch.

Thank you very much.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thank you, ahhh...... very refreshing, so you reckon the rapture will take place at mid-Great Tribulation, before the wrath of GOD on the ungodly.

Where in Matthew chapter 24 or in other verses, read that the rapture shall take place at mid-Great Tribulation?

We have Revelation 7:14, where the church saints in Heaven were said to have come out of Great Tribulation.

Also Revelation 20:4, where church saints in Heaven which underwent the persecution of anti-Christ worldwide against Holy Bible believing and faithful Christians.

They are spoken of in that verse after ant-Christ and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

And after too satan who possessed anti-Christ, is bond in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Likewise these church saints too reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:1-3)

These same church saints who took part in the 'first resurrection', the 'rapture', and from the clouds taken to Heaven. (Revelation 20:5&6/1Thessalonians4:16&17)

Since prior to that and until the rapture, Christ alone been the 'firstfruit or firstborn of resurrection'. (Colossians 1:18)

Doesn't these scriptures support the rapture happened after the Great Tribulation, since the church saints came out of Great Tribulation?

Also Isaiah 11:6-9, speaks about the millennial Kingdom ruled by Christ, and why is it only 'millennial' and not forever?

Therefore this prophecy of Isaiah does collaborates with the thousand years church saints in Heaven reigned with Christ, and thousand years satan bound in the bottomless pit.

But the draw back is, in the prophecy speaks about the wolf dwell with lamb and the leopard with kid, and a little child shall lead the calf, the young lion and the fatling, and etc. Apparently this millennial event takes place on earth, and lamb, kid, little child Biblically refers to GOD'S people ruled by Christ. And 'beasts' Biblically refers to kingdoms on earth, where there'll be a millennial time of peace between Christ's church and the world.

Now is this also referring to during the first resurrection or rapture, one will be taken to Heaven and the other one will be left behind on earth?

So after the Great Tribulation the first resurrection or rapture takes place, and after that starts the millennial reign of Christ with the saints in Heaven. Therefore the saints left behind on earth also ruled by Christ, have peace with the world. Then after the thousand years finishes, satan will be loosed again to deceive the nations on the earth once again.

Friends, this is not a debate, but iron sharpening iron, don't take my word for it. Am may not be precise since future events a mystery and verses are here and there in the Holy Bible to puzzle it together. And now i have one verse that conflicts with my strong theory with Biblical references.

The Holy Ghost is our Helper and Comforter and will lead us into the full truth, be patience and wait, and if you have spiritual ears, listen and pay attention.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

The setting Jesus gave for the "one taken" was A pre-tribulation setting of, normal life, Commerce, planning for the future, everyday life....Etc.
For your model to fit ,the world would have to be in total chaos, with millions of Christians beheaded, and actually, there would be no point for a rapture at that point because it says the Antichrist kills all that refuse to mark, so actually there's no possibility for a 1 thess chapter 4 rapture that you are suggesting ,at the mid trib point in the 7 yr trib.
The Virgin parable also has that same setting of normal life, Commerce, betrothal, Planning for the future, and everyday life.... every day activities which only fits a pre tribulation rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't have to, the scripture exposes the spirit of error from the spirit of truth based on the discussion.

You tend to rant and rail, and it's pointless to discuss with heart hardened people.

No, thank you.

The verses are referenced as a member requested earlier.
Jesus does not rant.
Maybe take the time to study.

 

[rebuilder 454]

1 Thessalonians 4:16&17

Revelation 6:11

Also according to the parable of the Ten Virgins and prophecy, one will be taken and the other left behind.

The parable of the Ten Virgins, the ten were 'virgins', unblemished during the Lord's return.

But merely half of them were 'ready' and 'prepared', while the other half were 'ready' and 'unprepared'.

Meaning to the mystery is, '5' of them were 'ready' scripturally and according to the signs of their time that the Lord's return is soon. But also furthermore scripturally they too perceived and were 'prepared', that the Lord will be a little late in His coming. And there'll be a 'void' and 'neglected' moment to their faith waiting, as to fall asleep in that moment. Nevertheless, they had an extra boost of faith when they were awoke suddenly to go and meet Him.

The other '5', likewise at the same time were scripturally 'ready' of His return soon according to signs of their time. But on the other hand, were scripturally 'unprepared' that His coming will be a little late. Therefore at the same time of 'void' and 'neglected' moment of their faith, as too fell asleep at the same time. In return, they had no that extra boost of faith when they were suddenly awoke to go and meet Him. Were apparently dazzled and were trying to go back and find more composure backing their faith, and by the time the door is closed and rapture's over.

There are church saints who are living and remain, and 'ready' during the rapture, but since 'unprepared', were left behind on earth, probably until Christ's millennial reign is over.

Again, please don't take my word for it, do a study and let's discuss. thank you.


Thank you very much.

The foolish were not ready.
The foolish were scrambling around for oil.

You didn't get the point of the parable?

Only one difference in the foolish and wise, was oil.
Oil was the game changer.
When the rapture occurs, only those with oil are the ready ones.
Only those with oil are gathered.

No oil...no go.
Carnal believers who have leaked out their anointing, stay.
Even though they were watching and waiting with the faithful pretrib.

The foolish had enough sense to watch for the pretrib rapture.
Their problem was that they were carnal.

Let's go with scripture here.
Once you change a component or several components , as you did, we can now make it say what we want.

 

[rebuilder 454]

David's body has decayed. Peter explained that David was prophetically referring to the coming Messiah - Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.​

(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;​

(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.​

(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

Nobody is in paradise. The dead are in their graves - in sheol/hades. Everybody remains there until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection (after Jesus) has not happened yet.


The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WEB):

(18) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;​

(19) in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

Those spirits were not humans, they were the fallen angels, as Peter explained earlier in his letter, and they are not in sheol (nor paradise) but another place - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

This was confirmed by Judes - Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

Maybe you were not taught the truth about that!

From a variety of Bible study articles many years ago. It particularly refers to the Great Multitude class of Revelation 7. Revelation 7:14-15 (WEB):

(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.​

(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.​

Where are you getting that from? The word Paradise is only used three times in the Bible and Jesus is never said to descend to Paradise. Dead people can't be preached to because they have no conscious thoughts; when people die their thoughts cease - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

I never mentioned anything about people being resurrected so they could die again. They die during the Great Tribulation and are resurrected as spirit beings, and will live in heaven serving God in His temple


Yes. Because Jesus paid the redemption price for everyone, to buy back their right to life. They are resurrected to human life again, but they then need teaching and restoration to human perfection (correcting their imperfect corrupted human nature), which God has allowed up to 1,000 years to accomplish. After that they will be tested, and only those that remain faithful and loyal to God and Jesus will be granted eternal life - those that fail the test will perish.


How did they get there? The first resurrection and rapture hasn't happened yet.


You have to be resurrected to be alive in Paradise. You can't be resurrected again if you are already in Paradise. Where are you getting that from?


What are you talking about? Please give Bible references to explain what you're trying to say.

rebuilder 454 said:
Those in paradise that Jesus descended to and preached the Gospel were resurrected and went to heaven.
Keith reply: "Where are you getting that from? The word Paradise is only used three times in the Bible and Jesus is never said to descend to Paradise. Dead people can't be preached to because they have no conscious thoughts; when people die their thoughts cease - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):"

Noah. Really? That what you posted is from someone who does not know his Bible.
I hope one day you will look into it and educate yourself on the paradise dynamic where Jesus descended after his death on the cross to preach to the captives in prison, which is called paradise.
Where all the dead saints of the Old Testament were kept until Jesus took them and resurrected them, and they went to heaven with Jesus as first fruits.

Such a basic important concept.
I have seem many here in that same unlearned situation.

It is Biblically sound and don't seem to have a hunger to investigate it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

From a variety of Bible study articles many years ago. It particularly refers to the Great Multitude class of Revelation 7. Revelation 7:14-15 (WEB):

(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.​

(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.​

Where are you getting that from? The word Paradise is only used three times in the Bible and Jesus is never said to descend to Paradise. Dead people can't be preached to because they have no conscious thoughts; when people die their thoughts cease - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

I never mentioned anything about people being resurrected so they could die again. They die during the Great Tribulation and are resurrected as spirit beings, and will live in heaven serving God in His temple


Yes. Because Jesus paid the redemption price for everyone, to buy back their right to life. They are resurrected to human life again, but they then need teaching and restoration to human perfection (correcting their imperfect corrupted human nature), which God has allowed up to 1,000 years to accomplish. After that they will be tested, and only those that remain faithful and loyal to God and Jesus will be granted eternal life - those that fail the test will perish.


How did they get there? The first resurrection and rapture hasn't happened yet.


You have to be resurrected to be alive in Paradise. You can't be resurrected again if you are already in Paradise. Where are you getting that from?


What are you talking about? Please give Bible references to explain what you're trying to say.

Ok I think I see the problem why you are paranoid to investigate the resurrection firstfruits.
You adhere to soul sleep.

I think you would need to study that concept first.
Once you get that doctrine straight, you will be free to investigate .
Right now, you are trying to corral verses to that concept, and omit the ones that are sound teaching.

 

[Fred J]

Dear true born again brethren,

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

Thank you to the one who posted this thread, GOD bless in Jesus name, for it benefits HIS lambs and sheep.

Don't listen to any man, especially foes in your own household of faith, for one's a liar while the other a betrayer.

But listen to unworthy servants who bring out the new and old treasures from GOD's house. (2Timothy 3:16&17)

Those who minister to us about a Pre-Great Tribulation rapture are heretics spreading heresy obviously.

How do we know that?

For there's no scripture to support such claim.

(We're are focusing rapture of church saints, remnant of Jews and Gentiles saved by grace since Jesus Christ until the rapture, and not the 144, 000 Israelites)

But there's scriptures supporting, either mid-Great Tribulation or end-Great Tribulation 'rapture' or 'first resurrection'.

Great Tribulation starts out with the appearance of anti-Christ in this world and last for three and a half years.

The first-half of the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of the church saints for their faith and Holy Bible believe the authority of GOD MOST HIGH through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

(It's no surprise after Christ, the church saints did go through the 'dark ages', where multitude of them laid down their lives for their faith)

The second-half of the Great Tribulation starts after anti-Christ fulfills the prophecy of Daniel, the 'abomination desolation', himself desecrating the third Temple in Jerusalem.

In judgement GOD pours out HIS wrath upon the earth, and by this mid-Great Tribulation the church saints had made it through the 'first resurrection' or 'the rapture'.

(Let's ponder for a moment, why scripture writes, 'the first resurrection' of church saints, and not just 'the resurrection' of church saints? By the wisdom given us, is there another or so called, 'second resurrection' to take place, based on the 'first resurrection', one will be taken and the other left behind due to being unprepared?)

There's a strong possibility, but for now based on pre-Great Tribulation rapture heresy of heretics, let's stick to it and refute that scripturally.

Scripture writes, 'the first resurrection', meaning, 'the rapture', after Christ's death and resurrection, is at His 'second coming', to meet Him in the clouds and church saints are taken to Heaven, period

Now beloved, figuratively speaking, you can do the first grade math, that, 'among the risen dead in Christ, and ones living and remain, shall be taken together to meet the Lord in the clouds and to Heaven'. (1Thessalonians4:16&17)

'Ones' made it through the so called one and only, 'first resurrection after the death and resurrection of Christ' (Revelation20:4&5), who are 'they' included together?

'Those', who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

So beloved, when did 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' take place, where it includes together the church saints persecuted during the rule of anti-Christ??

Definitely, either at mid-Great Tribulation before or after the abomination desolation, or at end-Great Tribulation where church saints came out of, to put into perspective.

Or to break it down based on 10 virgins into perspective, at mid-Great Tribulation ones prepared at His return is taken in the 'first resurrection', and ones unprepared is left behind, they came out of end-Great Tribulation. (Revelation 7:13&14/ 6:9-11)

There's no way, 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' took place before the Great Tribulation, or so called titled, 'Pre-Tribulation rapture', period

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[rebuilder 454]

Dear true born again brethren,

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

Thank you to the one who posted this thread, GOD bless in Jesus name, for it benefits HIS lambs and sheep.

Don't listen to any man, especially foes in your own household of faith, for one's a liar while the other a betrayer.

But listen to unworthy servants who bring out the new and old treasures from GOD's house. (2Timothy 3:16&17)

Those who minister to us about a Pre-Great Tribulation rapture are heretics spreading heresy obviously.

How do we know that?

For there's no scripture to support such claim.

(We're are focusing rapture of church saints, remnant of Jews and Gentiles saved by grace since Jesus Christ until the rapture, and not the 144, 000 Israelites)

But there's scriptures supporting, either mid-Great Tribulation or end-Great Tribulation 'rapture' or 'first resurrection'.

Great Tribulation starts out with the appearance of anti-Christ in this world and last for three and a half years.

The first-half of the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of the church saints for their faith and Holy Bible believe the authority of GOD MOST HIGH through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

(It's no surprise after Christ, the church saints did go through the 'dark ages', where multitude of them laid down their lives for their faith)

The second-half of the Great Tribulation starts after anti-Christ fulfills the prophecy of Daniel, the 'abomination desolation', himself desecrating the third Temple in Jerusalem.

In judgement GOD pours out HIS wrath upon the earth, and by this mid-Great Tribulation the church saints had made it through the 'first resurrection' or 'the rapture'.

(Let's ponder for a moment, why scripture writes, 'the first resurrection' of church saints, and not just 'the resurrection' of church saints? By the wisdom given us, is there another or so called, 'second resurrection' to take place, based on the 'first resurrection', one will be taken and the other left behind due to being unprepared?)

There's a strong possibility, but for now based on pre-Great Tribulation rapture heresy of heretics, let's stick to it and refute that scripturally.

Scripture writes, 'the first resurrection', meaning, 'the rapture', after Christ's death and resurrection, is at His 'second coming', to meet Him in the clouds and church saints are taken to Heaven, period

Now beloved, figuratively speaking, you can do the first grade math, that, 'among the risen dead in Christ, and ones living and remain, shall be taken together to meet the Lord in the clouds and to Heaven'. (1Thessalonians4:16&17)

'Ones' made it through the so called one and only, 'first resurrection after the death and resurrection of Christ' (Revelation20:4&5), who are 'they' included together?

'Those', who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

So beloved, when did 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' take place, where it includes together the church saints persecuted during the rule of anti-Christ??

Definitely, either at mid-Great Tribulation before or after the abomination desolation, or at end-Great Tribulation where church saints came out of, to put into perspective.

Or to break it down based on 10 virgins into perspective, at mid-Great Tribulation ones prepared at His return is taken in the 'first resurrection', and ones unprepared is left behind, they came out of end-Great Tribulation. (Revelation 7:13&14/ 6:9-11)

There's no way, 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' took place before the Great Tribulation, or so called titled, 'Pre-Tribulation rapture', period

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

The first resurrection is:
Jesus and the patriarchs as firstfruits
The dead in christ follow along with those raptured alive.
Then those left behind and beheaded in the tribulation.
3 parts to harvest.
Once you study the bride dimension and the harvest dimension, things begin to fit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Dear true born again brethren,

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

Thank you to the one who posted this thread, GOD bless in Jesus name, for it benefits HIS lambs and sheep.

Don't listen to any man, especially foes in your own household of faith, for one's a liar while the other a betrayer.

But listen to unworthy servants who bring out the new and old treasures from GOD's house. (2Timothy 3:16&17)

Those who minister to us about a Pre-Great Tribulation rapture are heretics spreading heresy obviously.

How do we know that?

For there's no scripture to support such claim.

(We're are focusing rapture of church saints, remnant of Jews and Gentiles saved by grace since Jesus Christ until the rapture, and not the 144, 000 Israelites)

But there's scriptures supporting, either mid-Great Tribulation or end-Great Tribulation 'rapture' or 'first resurrection'.

Great Tribulation starts out with the appearance of anti-Christ in this world and last for three and a half years.

The first-half of the Great Tribulation is the tribulation of the church saints for their faith and Holy Bible believe the authority of GOD MOST HIGH through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

(It's no surprise after Christ, the church saints did go through the 'dark ages', where multitude of them laid down their lives for their faith)

The second-half of the Great Tribulation starts after anti-Christ fulfills the prophecy of Daniel, the 'abomination desolation', himself desecrating the third Temple in Jerusalem.

In judgement GOD pours out HIS wrath upon the earth, and by this mid-Great Tribulation the church saints had made it through the 'first resurrection' or 'the rapture'.

(Let's ponder for a moment, why scripture writes, 'the first resurrection' of church saints, and not just 'the resurrection' of church saints? By the wisdom given us, is there another or so called, 'second resurrection' to take place, based on the 'first resurrection', one will be taken and the other left behind due to being unprepared?)

There's a strong possibility, but for now based on pre-Great Tribulation rapture heresy of heretics, let's stick to it and refute that scripturally.

Scripture writes, 'the first resurrection', meaning, 'the rapture', after Christ's death and resurrection, is at His 'second coming', to meet Him in the clouds and church saints are taken to Heaven, period

Now beloved, figuratively speaking, you can do the first grade math, that, 'among the risen dead in Christ, and ones living and remain, shall be taken together to meet the Lord in the clouds and to Heaven'. (1Thessalonians4:16&17)

'Ones' made it through the so called one and only, 'first resurrection after the death and resurrection of Christ' (Revelation20:4&5), who are 'they' included together?

'Those', who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

So beloved, when did 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' take place, where it includes together the church saints persecuted during the rule of anti-Christ??

Definitely, either at mid-Great Tribulation before or after the abomination desolation, or at end-Great Tribulation where church saints came out of, to put into perspective.

Or to break it down based on 10 virgins into perspective, at mid-Great Tribulation ones prepared at His return is taken in the 'first resurrection', and ones unprepared is left behind, they came out of end-Great Tribulation. (Revelation 7:13&14/ 6:9-11)

There's no way, 'the first resurrection' or 'the rapture' took place before the Great Tribulation, or so called titled, 'Pre-Tribulation rapture', period

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

The 10 virgin parable fits the pretrib rapture.
No postrib rapture is illustrated there.

Re read it. There is zero trib attached to the parable.
It Only fits a pretrib rapture doctrine

 

[Fred J]

GOD is not an author of confusion but of peace, and have given us HIS inspired Holy Bible sufficient scriptures for faith and good works. (2Timothy3:16&17)

To testify the same, 'as it is written', and according to the wisdom given us to minister the full truth. And unchanging, is done over and over again, plainly as a reminder and a stir up of memory for the already disciple church.

For those who are in discipleship are to follow through the scriptures posted and explained, even probably be helped by learned others.

The sufficient very foundation of the Apostles and Prophets we're built on and witnesses ourselves. Even here in discussion, 'exposes' confused 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' among us, who 'twist' and 'add' their 'distorted' gospel version.

We're not wrestling with flesh, but wrestling with the 'spirit of error' in them. Where the inspired all scripture of GOD is the 'Sword' in us, as one of our armor we must put on, doing the 'blow'.

Just one example, rebuilder 454 indeed a 'rebuilder' of GOD's founded foundation, ripping and tearing, and forcing his distorted gospel through.

For one subject is enough besides the others from him and alike, now where in the scripture or in relativeness scripture to scripture, it reads, 'Jesus and the patriarchs as firstfruits', which is according to him??

And the 'patriarchs' he's referring to, are the saints came out of their graves as Christ resurrected.

Am doing this again for you lambs and sheep not to be deceived and astray from faith.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

The first resurrection is:
Jesus and the patriarchs as firstfruits

Those who lived before Christ's sacrifice were not called to be part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke 7:28 (WEB):

(28) “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.”​

Matthew 11:11 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.​

The dead in christ follow along with those raptured alive.

Everyone that is raptured (caught or snatched up) will be alive. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17(WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

 

[Taken]

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

BEFORE.

Rapture Is The Redemption (raising up) of Specifically Those Believers … IN-Christ.

Why?
BECAUSE, “THEY” IN-Christ…
HAVE (pass-tense) Accomplished “Their Required WORKS”…
* Believed IN the Lord God Almighty.
* Confessed Their Heartful (natural spirit) True Belief.
* Willingly Given their Body unto Death, Verifying Their Oral Confession.

BECAUSE, “THEY” IN- Christ…
HAVE RECEIVED (pass tense) Christ Jesus’ WORKS “IN- THEM”…
* Hearing Their Confession.
* Verification their Confession BE True.
* Forgiveness,
* Heart Circumcision,
* Lamb of Gods Baptism,
* mans dead body, (crucified with Jesus’ body)
* Body Cleansing,
* Soul Saving,
* Seed of God,
* Quickening, (Rebirth of spirit of Gods Seed)
* Gods Spirit within them, (Gods Light,)
Covering their Sin, seen no more.
* Gods Spirit within them, (Gods Power,)
Keeping them With the Lord God.
* THEIR NAME (identity), recorded IN “the LAMBS BOOK of LIFE…
( NOT subject to ever being “blotted out”!!!)

* THEY, body, soul, spirit… NOT Appointed (subject TO)…to Suffer;

* Tribulations AGAIN Shall be Sent down from Heaven UPON the Whole World and it’s inhabitants.
* wrath of the Lamb…
* wrath of the devil…
* wrath of God!

As in the days of Noah…Tribulations and Wrath Sent down upon the Whole World and it’s inhabitants… Faithful Noah, his faithful family, Few, ( 8 of all inhabitants upon the Earth ) were saved From the Destruction Upon the Earth…
By, Through, Of Gods, Word, Promise, Power and Noah’s Belief, Faith and Obedience….

So was Noah (the Few 8) Raised UP ABOVE the face of the Earth…while the Earth and it’s inhabitants, were suffering Tribulations and Wrath Sent Down from Heaven.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Nothing New under the Sun.
Men upon the Earth… were once Warned, Chose their Standing, For or Against God…
Received the Consequence of THEIR Choices.

Again men have been Warned.
Another Event of Tribulation and Wrath From Heaven is Coming.
* Again men shall experience the consequences of their Choices, ACCORDING TO… Gods Order, Way, Timing, Records (Books, Evidence)

** Faithful to God…Raised by God. First Resurrection.
** Unfaithful to God…Raised by God. Second Resurrection.
** Faithful To God and To and WITH IN Christ…Raised by the Lord. Rapture.

Rapture, Those IN Christ, raised Up Above The Earth.
Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Fred J]

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

BEFORE

Empty words and no scripture reference and verses to support such claim.

Sadly, sometimes it's like watching 'looney tunes' in action, ones having all the time in the world.

Same like when Prophet Samuel visited the house of Jesse, likewise nearly all of his sons had all the time in the world to stay home.

The father Jesse arrayed all of these sons, well groomed, well attired and well mannered in presentation, hoping one of them is the pick.

Until Samuel himself was beguiled thinking probably one of them in their looks is definitely GOD's choice to be the next king of Israel.

To GOD not any one of them is HIS pick as man sees, and ironically the father Jesse forgot that he have another son who's out in the field taking care of the family's flock. (or probably David had no presentable appealing appearance, thought Jesse)

Again, IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

NOPE!

Revelation 20: 4-6, points out the 'first resurrection' of the church saints have taken place, since all along only Christ stands the firstfruit of resurrection or firstborn from the dead, and ascended into Heaven.

Those who made it in this 'first resurrection' include the church martyrs who lived through the Great Tribulation and were persecuted by anti-Christ and his people.

And by these verses we're able to narrow it down to the time it probably happened. Prior chapter and verse reads, anti-Christ and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire of burning brimstone. Likewise in this chapter and verse, satan is bound in the bottomless pit.

In the next verse 4, John sees thrones and ones sat upon them and judgement was given unto them. And he sees among also include these very church martyred souls, who all were just brought to presence, and thrones were seated and judgement handed to them.

Revelation 7:
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me. These are they which came out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew ch. 24, also states the Lord's coming is after the Great Tribulation, even the wrath of GOD.

To conclude, pre-Great Tribulation rapture is 'debunked', and my suspicion on a mid-Great Tribulation rapture is a write off.

Finally, post-Great Tribulation 'first resurrection' or 'rapture' is the 'truth', 'winner' and 'champion'.

Then begins the 'thousand years', and the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Meaning, after the 'first resurrection of church saints', there's 'no more resurrection of the dead', until the thousand years were finished.

Therefore according to the wisdom given us, there's a 'second resurrection' after the thousand years were finished.

So we also can conclude, one shall be 'taken in the first resurrection', and the other 'left behind' to probably make it to that 'second resurrection'.

For those who made it through the 'first resurrection', on such the second death have no power.

But those 'left behind' and 'one's generation', on such the 'second death' have power on the other hand.

The meaning of 'second death', is the possibility of them being cast to hell, probably when Christ judges in the Final Judgement.

May the LORD GOD in Jesus name 'forbid'.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Those who lived before Christ's sacrifice were not called to be part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke 7:28 (WEB):

(28) “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.”​

Matthew 11:11 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.​

Everyone that is raptured (caught or snatched up) will be alive. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17(WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

Looks like we need a thread on the work of Christ after the cross when he descended to paradise.

So many here are without that teaching.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Those who lived before Christ's sacrifice were not called to be part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke 7:28 (WEB):

(28) “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.”​

Matthew 11:11 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.​

Everyone that is raptured (caught or snatched up) will be alive. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17(WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

You just posted a verse saying the dead in christ are raptured with those that never died.

Which is true of course.

 

[rebuilder 454]

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

BEFORE.

Rapture Is The Redemption (raising up) of Specifically Those Believers … IN-Christ.

Why?
BECAUSE, “THEY” IN-Christ…
HAVE (pass-tense) Accomplished “Their Required WORKS”…
* Believed IN the Lord God Almighty.
* Confessed Their Heartful (natural spirit) True Belief.
* Willingly Given their Body unto Death, Verifying Their Oral Confession.

BECAUSE, “THEY” IN- Christ…
HAVE RECEIVED (pass tense) Christ Jesus’ WORKS “IN- THEM”…
* Hearing Their Confession.
* Verification their Confession BE True.
* Forgiveness,
* Heart Circumcision,
* Lamb of Gods Baptism,
* mans dead body, (crucified with Jesus’ body)
* Body Cleansing,
* Soul Saving,
* Seed of God,
* Quickening, (Rebirth of spirit of Gods Seed)
* Gods Spirit within them, (Gods Light,)
Covering their Sin, seen no more.
* Gods Spirit within them, (Gods Power,)
Keeping them With the Lord God.
* THEIR NAME (identity), recorded IN “the LAMBS BOOK of LIFE…
( NOT subject to ever being “blotted out”!!!)

* THEY, body, soul, spirit… NOT Appointed (subject TO)…to Suffer;

* Tribulations AGAIN Shall be Sent down from Heaven UPON the Whole World and it’s inhabitants.
* wrath of the Lamb…
* wrath of the devil…
* wrath of God!

As in the days of Noah…Tribulations and Wrath Sent down upon the Whole World and it’s inhabitants… Faithful Noah, his faithful family, Few, ( 8 of all inhabitants upon the Earth ) were saved From the Destruction Upon the Earth…
By, Through, Of Gods, Word, Promise, Power and Noah’s Belief, Faith and Obedience….

So was Noah (the Few 8) Raised UP ABOVE the face of the Earth…while the Earth and it’s inhabitants, were suffering Tribulations and Wrath Sent Down from Heaven.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Nothing New under the Sun.
Men upon the Earth… were once Warned, Chose their Standing, For or Against God…
Received the Consequence of THEIR Choices.

Again men have been Warned.
Another Event of Tribulation and Wrath From Heaven is Coming.
* Again men shall experience the consequences of their Choices, ACCORDING TO… Gods Order, Way, Timing, Records (Books, Evidence)

** Faithful to God…Raised by God. First Resurrection.
** Unfaithful to God…Raised by God. Second Resurrection.
** Faithful To God and To and WITH IN Christ…Raised by the Lord. Rapture.

Rapture, Those IN Christ, raised Up Above The Earth.
Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

Exactly.
And I will add that the ones taken and those left behind are in the setting ,and timing , and declaration of Jesus, is BEFORE THE FLOOD.

What a postrib rapture doctrine catastrophe.
Literal train wreck.