IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Fred J]

You want the word 'church' written there in order for you to believe?

Or do you have the wisdom given from above to discern that the scripture reads like this.

That, these souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD.

Only the true born again church are disciple and gifted, and with the Holy Ghost able to witness for Jesus, and for the word of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

FYI. Do not 'wrest' the doctrine nor the scripture to your own destruction, thank you.

Brethren,

Would want to expound on this for the benefit of the doubt of some who claim the scripture does not refer to the church.

For one, a non-born again commoner will not be able or be willing to witness for Jesus nor for the word of GOD in the Holy Bible.

Example, when i was an unbeliever commoner, and when the subject of Christianity or Jesus pop up, i would naturally have resentment towards it. And would think to myself, 'i have my own god and whom is not pleased with me, therefore why do i bother about a white man's God? If any Christian minister to me, i would say, 'Pray to your God and i will pray to my god', and will run from them. Only thing i would think of, Christians want to brainwash me and convert me to Christianity, no, no, no way hosay.

There you go straight from the horse's mouth, and finally if am going to be beheaded for that, will be the first one to check out instantly! Even a Jew for the matter will do the same!

Apparently, only true born again church saints are competent and bold enough to witness for Jesus and for the word of GOD. And they are well aware beforehand by doing so, can get them persecuted and killed, even shun from their families. Moreover they're willing to laydown their own lives gladly looking up to Heaven and forgiving their persecutors.

For the record, compared to all the religion in the world, there's no such a package like this to get to Heaven. A commoner unbeliever might only think, Christians and Christianity are either dumb or crazy, and fit for the dumpster.

Matthew 5:
10. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
11. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
12. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the Prophets which were before you.

To this very package itself, an unbeliever commoner instantly will head for the exit and that's it.

Shalom in the name of Adonai and Elohim Yeshua

 

[soberxp]

To this very package itself, an unbeliever commoner instantly will head for the exit and that's it.

an unbeliever with the question:​

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?​

 

[Fred J]

an unbeliever with the question:​

IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?​

Jesus will answer back the unbeliever according to John 3: 3&5

 

[soberxp]

Jesus will answer back the unbeliever according to John 3: 3&5

I think that's probably why there are difficult births( dystocia ) in the world.

 

[Fred J]

I think that's probably why there are difficult births( dystocia ) in the world.

It all goes back to their mother Eve's punishment, and now by the Gospel become born again.

 

[keithr]

Jesus will answer back the unbeliever according to John 3: 3&5

I don't think he would, because that would not answer or even address the question!

 

[soberxp]

I don't think he would, because that would not answer or even address the question!

He may not, but he can get someone to do it.

Like a gang fight, you can call a large circle of people before a fight.but the boss will not do it himself.

LOL.

 

[Fred J]

I don't think he would, because that would not answer or even address the question!

It's not about your thinking that determines the scripture, doctrine or matter being a man.

It's about being certain as one disciple by the scripture and doctrine, and testify as a spirit man.

Apparently, Nicodemus is an unbeliever and not born again, therefore he's incompetent to even understand about born again.

It's immature and unwise to go around in circle, again and again, to make a blind unbeliever 'see' what a born again believer 'see' in regards the Kingdom of GOD.

That's why Jesus on the other hand, gave Nicodemus a basic tutorial lesson about becoming born again first.

That's why mature believers perceive by the context of the scripture and doctrine wisely and are imitators of Christ likewise.

Where people like unbeliever Nicodemus must be 'born again' first, in order to 'see' and 'enter' the Kingdom of GOD in Heaven.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ



Now similarly an unbeliever comes to me with a question about, 'Is the rapture before the Great Tribulation?'

i believe based on your reply, you would conduct a tutorial lesson about the matter to an unbeliever.

But born again imitators of the Master Jesus, would answer like their Master, as He did to Nicodemus.

 

[Fred J]

I think that's probably why there are difficult births( dystocia ) in the world.

What has natural birth got to do with John 3: 3&5 being born again from above?

 

[KUWN]

Where people like unbeliever Nicodemus must be 'born again' first, in order to 'see' and 'enter' the Kingdom of GOD in Heaven.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Where can I read about the Kingdom of God IN HEAVEN that pertains to the Church?

 

[keithr]

Apparently, Nicodemus is an unbeliever and not born again, therefore he's incompetent to even understand about born again.

John 3:2 WEB

(2) The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”​

Nicodemus stated that he (and other Pharisees, for he said "we") believed that Jesus was sent from God, and that the miracles that Jesus performed were proof that God approved of Jesus' teachings. So he came to Jesus as a believer to learn more, and be confirmed in his belief.

No question from Nicodemus is recorded in the passage, but Jesus teaches him more than simply "you must be born again". First he teaches about a new birth - as F. B. Meyer comments:

The phrase, “the new birth,” the Jews always used for Gentiles, and it greatly startled Nicodemus to learn that there was needed for himself the same change as was required by Gentiles before entering the Jewish commonwealth. In speaking of water, our Lord probably refers to the baptism of John, in which men confessed their sins and expressed their desire to leave the past behind and to enter a fuller experience of the life of God. The new life begotten by the Spirit of God is as mysterious as the wind. That Spirit, bearing the germ of a new life, rejoices to enter each open casement and to fill each vacuum, wherever one will.​

This was the first and only time that is recorded that Jesus taught about the need to be born again.

Jesus goes on to teach that he was the Son of God and that he must be crucified, and that "God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (verse 16), that God "didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him".

That's why Jesus on the other hand, gave Nicodemus a basic tutorial lesson about becoming born again first.

Jesus gave more than "a basic lesson", he gave Nicodemus quite a revelation!

When Jesus' disciples asked about when the temple stones would be thrown down, and what would be the sign of his return (Matthew 24:3), Jesus didn't give them "a basic lesson", he answered their questions at length (verses 4 - 51). Similarly, when the Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) asked Jesus whose wife would a woman be after the resurrection if she had been married to seven men during her life, Jesus answered the question (Matthew 22:23-33). So I therefore don't think that Jesus would answer the question "is the rapture before the tribulation" with an unrelated lesson, I think he would answer the question that was asked. He's not like a modern politician that dodges answering a question!

But born again imitators of the Master Jesus, would answer like their Master, as He did to Nicodemus.

Right, they would answer the question that was asked!

 

[keithr]

Where can I read about the Kingdom of God IN HEAVEN that pertains to the Church?

Perhaps you should start a new thread to discuss that?

 

[KUWN]

Where can I read about the Kingdom of God IN HEAVEN that pertains to the Church?

Perhaps you should start a new thread to discuss that?

I wouldn't know what to say since I have never read anything like that. Can you start the tread?

 

[David in NJ]

What has natural birth got to do with John 3: 3&5 being born again from above?

Without the natural birth(water) you could never be born-again(spirit)

Thusly, the tutorial given to Nicodemus explaining the two distinct 'births'

SHALOM in YAHshua

 

[Fred J]

Where can I read about the Kingdom of God IN HEAVEN that pertains to the Church?

You sound like Nicodemus, therefore, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD."

And, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOD."

If you like Nicodemus who don't understand Jesus' doctrine first of all about the Kingdom of GOD in Heaven, how can you understand the given mine?

 

[Fred J]

John 3:2 WEB

(2) The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”​

Nicodemus stated that he (and other Pharisees, for he said "we") believed that Jesus was sent from God, and that the miracles that Jesus performed were proof that God approved of Jesus' teachings. So he came to Jesus as a believer to learn more, and be confirmed in his belief.

No question from Nicodemus is recorded in the passage, but Jesus teaches him more than simply "you must be born again". First he teaches about a new birth - as F. B. Meyer comments:

The phrase, “the new birth,” the Jews always used for Gentiles, and it greatly startled Nicodemus to learn that there was needed for himself the same change as was required by Gentiles before entering the Jewish commonwealth. In speaking of water, our Lord probably refers to the baptism of John, in which men confessed their sins and expressed their desire to leave the past behind and to enter a fuller experience of the life of God. The new life begotten by the Spirit of God is as mysterious as the wind. That Spirit, bearing the germ of a new life, rejoices to enter each open casement and to fill each vacuum, wherever one will.​

This was the first and only time that is recorded that Jesus taught about the need to be born again.

Jesus goes on to teach that he was the Son of God and that he must be crucified, and that "God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (verse 16), that God "didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him".


Jesus gave more than "a basic lesson", he gave Nicodemus quite a revelation!

When Jesus' disciples asked about when the temple stones would be thrown down, and what would be the sign of his return (Matthew 24:3), Jesus didn't give them "a basic lesson", he answered their questions at length (verses 4 - 51). Similarly, when the Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) asked Jesus whose wife would a woman be after the resurrection if she had been married to seven men during her life, Jesus answered the question (Matthew 22:23-33). So I therefore don't think that Jesus would answer the question "is the rapture before the tribulation" with an unrelated lesson, I think he would answer the question that was asked. He's not like a modern politician that dodges answering a question!


Right, they would answer the question that was asked!

Yes, lawless ones who are not imitators of their Master Jesus tend to do so, thinking they can do a better job than Jesus.

"My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me, .............................."

 

[Fred J]

Perhaps you should start a new thread to discuss that?

Perhaps, like Nicodemus i suggest you become born again first, thank you.

 

[Fred J]

Without the natural birth(water) you could never be born-again(spirit)

Thusly, the tutorial given to Nicodemus explaining the two distinct 'births'

SHALOM in YAHshua

So to you, Jesus was addressing specifically to the natural water bag born men, that only they can be born again?

And He was addressing so, because probably there were 'aliens' there and are exempted from this rebirth?

Every man in Israel know of this natural human birth of the earth, and need they to be taught or reminded?

Absurd folly doctrine of the demons, you babes in Christ have picked up and brought it to the Lord's table.

Didn't Jesus disciple, "Do not make My FATHER's house a marketplace."

And, "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of the devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

Grow up from yet consuming milk and being shortsighted, to meat therefore one may be able to see afar.

John 3:3&5, Jesus is speaking about rebirth from above specifically, not from below anymore, which everyone been through and already know.

In verse 5, Jesus is talking about water from nature itself, started by John for the repentance of Israel and baptizing them in the river Jordan.

Symbolically as John proclaimed to the Israelites, repent and be water baptized, as to make a straight path for the Lord, whom is about to come.

(Water from nature used for 'washing' and 'purification' of the defiled body and things, whether at home or at the Temple, is in the Old Testament. Even to the earth being 'washed' and 'purified' by Noah's flood water and hence a new family to start anew again, is)

Therefore next, when the Lord is come, He likewise proclaimed repentance, and hence disciple the doctrine of the Kingdom making disciples who've born again and able to 'see' the Kingdom.

And when discipleship is over, He henceforth baptizes them with Holy Ghost and Fire, who've 'born of water and of the Holy Ghost' in fulfillment, and able to 'enter' the Kingdom.

This is the evidence written from the beginning of the Gospel, pertaining to proclamation of the Kingdom for repentance and water baptizing, conducted by John the Baptist and his disciples.

Since and after John, Jesus continued proclaiming and henceforth made disciples about the Kingdom, while His disciples were water baptizing .

And finally on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts, only then the disciples were baptize with Holy Ghost and Fire.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

Where can I read about the Kingdom of God IN HEAVEN that pertains to the Church?

I wouldn't know what to say since I have never read anything like that. Can you start the tread?

I can understand you wanting to be ready, firmly established and prepared (kuwn) for our future role in God's Kingdom.

You should do your own searching and study, but I would say:

(a) We (Christians) will be changed and no longer be humans. We will be spirit beings similar to what Jesus now is - 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

(b) As adopted children of God (Ephesians 1:5) we will be "heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:16-17) and we will sit with Jesus on his throne, sharing his honours and triumphs, and sharing in his reign (Revelation 3:21). For 1,000 years we will be reigning with Jesus over mankind on the earth (Revelation 20:4,6), blessing and restoring mankind back to the perfection that was lost by Adam - it will be "the times of restoration of all things" (Acts 3:21).

(c) After the 1,000 years reign (and the final judgement of mankind) Jesus will hand over the Kingdom to God (1 Corinthians 15:24) and Jesus and all other living beings will be subjected to God - 1 Corinthians 15:28 (WEB):

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

What will happen then and for all eternity is not yet foretold, but 1 Corinthians 2:9 (ISV) says:

(9) But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."​

 

[David in NJ]

So to you, Jesus was addressing specifically to the natural water bag born men, that only they can be born again?

And He was addressing so, because probably there were 'aliens' there and are exempted from this rebirth?

Every man in Israel know of this natural human birth of the earth, and need they to be taught or reminded?

Absurd folly doctrine of the demons, you babes in Christ have picked up and brought it to the Lord's table.

Didn't Jesus disciple, "Do not make My FATHER's house a marketplace."

And, "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of the devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

Grow up from yet consuming milk and being shortsighted, to meat therefore one may be able to see afar.

John 3:3&5, Jesus is speaking about rebirth from above specifically, not from below anymore, which everyone been through and already know.

In verse 5, Jesus is talking about water from nature itself, started by John for the repentance of Israel and baptizing them in the river Jordan.

Symbolically as John proclaimed to the Israelites, repent and be water baptized, as to make a straight path for the Lord, whom is about to come.

(Water from nature used for 'washing' and 'purification' of the defiled body and things, whether at home or at the Temple, is in the Old Testament. Even to the earth being 'washed' and 'purified' by Noah's flood water and hence a new family to start anew again, is)

Therefore next, when the Lord is come, He likewise proclaimed repentance, and hence disciple the doctrine of the Kingdom making disciples who've born again and able to 'see' the Kingdom.

And when discipleship is over, He henceforth baptizes them with Holy Ghost and Fire, who've 'born of water and of the Holy Ghost' in fulfillment, and able to 'enter' the Kingdom.

This is the evidence written from the beginning of the Gospel, pertaining to proclamation of the Kingdom for repentance and water baptizing, conducted by John the Baptist and his disciples.

Since and after John, Jesus continued proclaiming and henceforth made disciples about the Kingdom, while His disciples were water baptizing .

And finally on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts, only then the disciples were baptize with Holy Ghost and Fire.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

Good Morning,

Absurd folly doctrine of the demons, you babes in Christ have picked up and brought it to the Lord's table.

You gave me a good laugh this morning - thank you