IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[JLB]

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

‘This is simply not true.

The great tribulation is persecution of Christians.

• Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:9-15,21

 

[Doug]

‘This is simply not true.

The great tribulation is persecution of Christians.

• Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:9-15,21

This passage was directed at the believing remnant of Israel not to us the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ

 

[JLB]

This passage was directed at the believing remnant of Israel not to us the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ

Jesus was teaching the leadership of His Church about His coming and the end of the age,
in Matthew 24.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
Matthew 24:3-4


Please stop deceiving God’s people with evil nonsense that only confuses people.

 

[Fred J]

Since you are exalting water baptism above the power/authority of the Holy Spirit, that places you under the Roman Catholic Church.

You are 'silly' and babbling so much, think you know something but you know nothing at all.

The FATHER and Son have authority over the Holy Ghost, for their word is truth and eternal life, and the Holy Ghost serves the Word, and not Himself.

Open your eyes and read what the Holy Ghost Himself have served the Word in regards 'water baptism'.

Romans 6:
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raise up from the dead by the Glory of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward GOD.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The Word of GOD Himself claim the significant of 'water baptism', whom the Holy Ghost serve and not Himself nor power.

Without the Word of GOD the Holy Ghost can't function nor His power work, so quit crying like a kid and grow up in the Word of GOD diligently.

 

[Fred J]

water baptism does not PRODUCE the second birth .
But those who BELEIVE ON CHRIST JESUS who are the BORN again
would do so . THE SPIRIT produces the second birth . not water of this world . GOD DOES .

Readers,

Besides these 'clowns' and their 'babblings', water baptism played a significant role, hand in hand with the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and with fire, in the production of the second birth.

Therefore John the Baptist baptized people for nothing, had all the time to play with water and people??

Jesus Himself was baptized with the same water, or He did not bath for days or it was hot, so He went for a dip in the same water??

The disciples were with Jesus and baptized many people, so it was for the fun of it??

Grow up kids and stop the circus!

Water baptism was until the book of Acts, even after Paul had his conversion, and he himself baptized a few people.

He did not baptize more people because Himself confessed that he was not sent to baptize, but for the word of GOD.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

... so quit crying like a kid and grow up in the Word of GOD diligently.

Grow up kids and stop the circus!

Reminder - Romans 12:10,16 :

UASV+

(10) In brotherly love have tender affection for one another; in showing honor to one another, take the lead;​

(16) Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own eyes.​

ISV

(10) Be devoted to each other with mutual affection. Excel at showing respect for each other.​

(16) Live in harmony with each other. Do not be arrogant, but associate with humble people. Do not think that you are wiser than you really are.​

 

[Fred J]

Reminder - Romans 12:10,16 :

UASV+

(10) In brotherly love have tender affection for one another; in showing honor to one another, take the lead;​

(16) Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own eyes.​

ISV

(10) Be devoted to each other with mutual affection. Excel at showing respect for each other.​

(16) Live in harmony with each other. Do not be arrogant, but associate with humble people. Do not think that you are wiser than you really are.​

Thank you for the reminder, it was just a brotherly correction, no offence taken.

May GOD forgive and bless them with truth and eternal life.

On their part, it is inappropriate to make a 'false' claim that 'water baptism' is of no significant value or purpose to the 'second birth'.

The scripture proves it does and we have testified, 'as it is written', therefore wisely take it to consideration, instead of making a mockery.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

Old Testament is GOD's Old Covenant given and made with Israel.

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of GOD's Old Covenant including the Law and the Prophets.

Therefore the New Testament is GOD's New Covenant given and made with Israel and then Gentles.

'Water Baptism' is in GOD's New Covenant in testament, from the Gospel to the epistle of Peter.

It has nothing to do with the Old Covenant, the Law and the Prophets which Jesus have fulfilled

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[Doug]

Jesus was teaching the leadership of His Church about His coming and the end of the age,
in Matthew 24.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
Matthew 24:3-4


Please stop deceiving God’s people with evil nonsense that only confuses people.

If you see Matthew 24 being about you then to be saved you have to endure til the end of the tribulation .....................................[Mat 24:13 KJV] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[JLB]

If you see Matthew 24 being about you then to be saved you have to endure til the end of the tribulation .....................................[Mat 24:13 KJV] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

‘Everyone must endure to the end of any persecution without turning away from Christ, in order to be saved.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[David in NJ]

You are 'silly' and babbling so much, think you know something but you know nothing at all.

The FATHER and Son have authority over the Holy Ghost, for their word is truth and eternal life, and the Holy Ghost serves the Word, and not Himself.

Open your eyes and read what the Holy Ghost Himself have served the Word in regards 'water baptism'.

Romans 6:
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raise up from the dead by the Glory of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward GOD.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The Word of GOD Himself claim the significant of 'water baptism', whom the Holy Ghost serve and not Himself nor power.

Without the Word of GOD the Holy Ghost can't function nor His power work, so quit crying like a kid and grow up in the Word of GOD diligently.

Good Morning my Brother in Christ

Follow the LORD
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Water baptism is only outward and cannot wash away the sins of a man/woman

You quoted Acts and 1 Peter 3, in doing so you hope to establish flesh/water as the impetus of Salvation.
The Scriptures NEVER declare such a foolish thing = go back and READ carefully the words of the Apostles and the words of Christ in Acts chapters 1 & 2

If flesh/water can wash away sins then JESUS would never had to suffer and pour out His Blood.

@Fred J - You never answered the question - Are you a member of Roman Catholicism???

 

[Doug]

‘Everyone must endure to the end of any persecution without turning away from Christ, in order to be saved.

Where in Paul's epistles do you find him saying to us that we will lose salvation unto eternal life if we turn away

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Where in Paul's epistles do you find him saying to us that we will lose salvation unto eternal life if we turn away

Precious friend, Great question! I have been unable to find "such a doctrine" in Paul's Mystery,
But I have found:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

 

[amigo de christo]

Readers,

Besides these 'clowns' and their 'babblings', water baptism played a significant role, hand in hand with the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and with fire, in the production of the second birth.

Therefore John the Baptist baptized people for nothing, had all the time to play with water and people??

Jesus Himself was baptized with the same water, or He did not bath for days or it was hot, so He went for a dip in the same water??

The disciples were with Jesus and baptized many people, so it was for the fun of it??

Grow up kids and stop the circus!

Water baptism was until the book of Acts, even after Paul had his conversion, and he himself baptized a few people.

He did not baptize more people because Himself confessed that he was not sent to baptize, but for the word of GOD.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Hey fred
I never said .
enjoy that small rhyme and now hear this well .
I never said WE OUGHT NOT to be water baptized . The early church did it SO WE DO IT .
but it darn sure does not produce the SECOND birth .
IN fact we are to ONLY BAPTIZE THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN , WHOSE FAITH IS ALREADY IN JESUS and have
THUS BEEN BORN AGAIN . you dont baptize the dead , you baptize the born again .
WHO WERE ALREADY BORN OF GOD , BY THE SPIRIT , whose faith BE IN CHRIST . now PONDER on that for a bit .

 

[Doug]

Precious friend, Great question! I have been unable to find "such a doctrine" in Paul's Mystery,
But I have found:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

Good to hear from you

 

[amigo de christo]

Where in Paul's epistles do you find him saying to us that we will lose salvation unto eternal life if we turn away

even if i showed it to you
you will twist it .
BUT its pretty clear in romans ten
That if unbelieving jews were CAST OUT due to their unbeleif
And if we continue NOT IN HIS GOODNESS can be cast out
BEING CAST OUT has not a good end , ITS UNBELEIF dude .
OR how about his warnings in colossians ,
in hebrews and a few other places . OH yeah he warned the church
JUST as JESUS had first warned . As if somehow paul was opposed to JESUS . yeah RIGHT .
you all pick and choose what you desire to beleive and have twisted it to fit what you want to beleive .
You all do not fool me . SO allow me some parting words
I PRAY you will take heed to .
EVERY WORD OF JESUS IS FOR US , as well as every letter written by them apostels .
BIBLE TIME , the days of picking and choosing MUST COME TO AN END .
EITHER WE BELEIVE IT ALL or WE HAVE DECIEVED OURSELVES .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good Morning my Brother in Christ

Follow the LORD
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Water baptism is only outward and cannot wash away the sins of a man/woman

You quoted Acts and 1 Peter 3, in doing so you hope to establish flesh/water as the impetus of Salvation.
The Scriptures NEVER declare such a foolish thing = go back and READ carefully the words of the Apostles and the words of Christ in Acts chapters 1 & 2

If flesh/water can wash away sins then JESUS would never had to suffer and pour out His Blood.

@Fred J - You never answered the question - Are you a member of Roman Catholicism???

IF flesh and water can wash away sins , THEN I guess to save all the false religoins ALL WE NEED DO is water baptize them .
EXAcTLY my friend . the water alone cannot save .
HERE IS what cleanses the inner conscious of a man , THE BLOOD OF JESUS , FAITH IN HIM
THE HOLY SPIRIT given to THOSE WHO DO BELEIVE in HIM .
The water baptism , in fact , can only and should ONLY be performed ON THE BORN AGAIN . so babies NO WAY
they dont know what to beleive lest it be hunger or diaper wetting .
I mean when on earth is this people gonna learn the bible for themselves .
BUT , this is no way is my denfence for NOT being water baptized . WE SHOULD . the early church did it
WE DO IT . but you are correct , THE BORN AGAIN , BORN OF GOD , BORN OF SPIRIT whose faith IS IN CHRIST
are the only ones we water baptize . NO FAITH , NO WATER baptism . the water is but water . ITs H two O
JESUS DID THE SAVING and if ones FAITH IS NOT IN HIM
they can dunk all day and they are NOT SAVED .

 

[David in NJ]

IF flesh and water can wash away sins , THEN I guess to save all the false religoins ALL WE NEED DO is water baptize them .
EXAcTLY my friend . the water alone cannot save .
HERE IS what cleanses the inner conscious of a man , THE BLOOD OF JESUS , FAITH IN HIM
THE HOLY SPIRIT given to THOSE WHO DO BELEIVE in HIM .
The water baptism , in fact , can only and should ONLY be performed ON THE BORN AGAIN . so babies NO WAY
they dont know what to beleive lest it be hunger or diaper wetting .
I mean when on earth is this people gonna learn the bible for themselves .
BUT , this is no way is my denfence for NOT being water baptized . WE SHOULD . the early church did it
WE DO IT . but you are correct , THE BORN AGAIN , BORN OF GOD , BORN OF SPIRIT whose faith IS IN CHRIST
are the only ones we water baptize . NO FAITH , NO WATER baptism . the water is but water . ITs H two O
JESUS DID THE SAVING and if ones FAITH IS NOT IN HIM
they can dunk all day and they are NOT SAVED .

JESUS said to JohntheB "fulfill all righteosuness":
a.) this pertains to when the children of Israel left Egypt = "all passed thru the Red Sea"
b.) this also pertains to Joshua/Israel crossing the Jordan

Questions:
What took place BEFORE they left Egypt?
What was instructed to Moses/Israel in the wilderness by which sins were atoned for?

There is but One correct answer for both questions.

 

[amigo de christo]

JESUS said to JohntheB "fulfill all righteosuness":
a.) this pertains to when the children of Israel left Egypt = "all passed thru the Red Sea"
b.) this also pertains to Joshua/Israel crossing the Jordan

Questions:
What took place BEFORE they left Egypt?
What was instructed to Moses/Israel in the wilderness by which sins were atoned for?

There is but One correct answer for both questions.

Well the main thing that took place right before they left
was the first passover by which all who took the blood of the lamb and spread it upon their door posts
were kept safe .
Which brings up a lovely allegory that would point to THE TRUE PASSOVER LAMB
and how HIS BLOOD was is not upon the outside of the house
BUT UPON THE HEART OF THE SHEEP that cleanses THE the inner conscious of a man .
However i have no idea what the answer is you are looking for my friend .
Blood was instructed . without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins . THOUGH in
the case of the law it was outward

 

[JLB]

Where in Paul's epistles do you find him saying to us that we will lose salvation unto eternal life if we turn away

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6