Is there a "moderate Calvinism"?

[Arthur81]

Readers, take note how Arminians do not do an exposition of scripture, or give an exegesis of a passage other than what they invent out of their own emotions and feelings. They wish to make God in their image, but God's word forbids that. We cannot even fully comprehend God.

God is Incomprehensible, so we must stay with what he has written to us even if we can't fully understand it -

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

These are indeed but the outskirts of his ways; and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?” (Job 26:14, NRSV)

He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Eccl 3:11, NRSV)

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:33-34, NRSV)

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, NRSV)

Those of us who believe the Total Depravity of Man, Unmerited Election, Particular Redemption, Efficacious grace and the Perseverance of the saints, we base our belief on the explicit statements of scripture. We can give a logical exegesis of the passages which superficially seem to contradict the Five Points. How much detailed exegesis do you find coming from the Arminian?

 

[BlessedPeace]

That's a terrible oversimplification. These men and their respective movements represented, in their time, the address of important Christian concerns. So Christians had to take sides, even if all the issues were not perfectly worked out

For example, I embrace Lutheranism in the time of Luther because he made a stand against indulgences and against Catholic tyranny, which had been prohibiting reform thinking and the work of Scripture translation. It is not following Luther, as opposed to following Christ.

Luther represented a movement, inspired by Christ, so that reform would make inroads into the Christian and pagan cultures both. To just glibly say, "I follow Christ--not Luther," completely misses the point and even worse, avoids supporting the role of reform and proper evangelism. It is to capitulate to religious tyranny and to social injustice, neglecting to "fight the good fight."

Are you a Lutheran?

 

[Randy Kluth]

A close and detailed reexamination of John 3:16 -
Neuroscience: "The brain uses past learning as the guide for what to expect in the future. Because of prediction, present experience and responses are shaped by the past. Predictions from early life can be deeply encoded and enduring. Predictions based on the past allow for more efficient brain function in the present, but can lead to mistakes." The predicting brain: unconscious repetition, conscious reflection and therapeutic change - PubMed

Many have been taught a mistaken understanding of Jn 3:16. If we have been taught the mistake, the more we hear the same mistake, the stronger imprint it makes in the mind and the verse will always be understood in that mistaken manner, unless one uses determination to study the verse anew. It is not easy to shake off an oft-repeated belief that is wrong. The following is how most misunderstand Jn 3:16 -

"God loved every person in the world so much, that he gave his only Son, so that whosoever will believe will not perish but have everlasting life." That is NOT what the verse states!

Here is a literal translation as well as a Dynamic Equivalence translation and it is the present tense -

"for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during." (John 3:16, YLT)
"‘God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16, REB)

The text reads "the world" and kosmos according to Thayer and the BDAG can have 8 different meanings. What in the context of Jn 3:16 would make this mean "every person in the world"?

Second, the KJV uses an archaic word "believeth - verb archaic Third-person singular simple present indicative form of believe"

believeth — definition, examples, related words and more at Wordnik

All the words

www.wordnik.com

"Present indicative is a tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time. It is used to express what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true, that is sometimes used to refer to action in the past, and that is sometimes used for future events.2 The present indicative is commonly used to express the present continuous, and to emphasize the present continuous, expressions..."

The verse does not read "whosoever will believeth", but "whosoever believeth". The word for future, "will" is not seen in Jn 3:16 as it is in Rv 22:17 -

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17, KJV)

In current English, it is not "whosoever" but "everyone". In Webster's 1828 "WHOSOEVER, pron. [who, so, and ever.] Any one; any person whatever. Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Revelations 22." Even though you hear Rv 22:17 compared to Jn 3:16 as if they both say "whosoever will", Jn 3:16 DOES NOT.

Jn 3:16 is a statement of existing fact, "believing" or "hath faith". Rv 22:17 is an invitation. Trying to make Jn 3:16 into an invitation is to distort the grammar of the verse. What about the meaning of "world" here? We use the word "world" so often in a rather general sense, as in:

"She has been all over the world."
"Fast Food outlets seem to be taking over the world."
"The world was, and remains, shocked."

Is there anything in this John chapter 3 to lead us into thinking world here means every person in the world? I see no hint of that. But I do see a reason to see Jesus is using the word in an expansive way to indicate that God loves other people who are not Jews. Nicodemus would have the typical Jewish idea that only Jews are God's people(John 8:33, 39; Mt 3:9; Lk 3:8) and Jesus is setting him straight. Nicodemus has standing as a Jew: a Pharisee v1, a Ruler of the Jews v1, the Teacher of Israel v10. Peter also had the typical Jewish outlook at the first -

"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28, KJV)

John, who wrote this gospel, also wrote Revelation where we get an idea of what he means by "world" in such a context as this, the context of Jesus giving His life. -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV) John also uses "world" in a similar manner in 1 Jn 2:2... it is not just us Jews, but the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews He is the blood atonement for.

The Apostle Paul also uses "world" to represent Gentiles -

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Rom 11:12, KJV)

The Arminian claims that Jesus died for every man who lived, lives or will live; but he saved no one; he merely provided a hypothetical salvation that becomes real if a man adds his faith to it. In other words, it is a merited salvation, earned by the person.

KEEP IN MIND - "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jer 31:3, KJV)
(Can you imagine God loving all men with this everlasting love, and then sending them to hell?)

"...but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals." (Mal 1:3, NRSV)
"As it is written, 'I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.'” (Rom 9:13, NRSV)
(It is clear God does hate some persons, whose identity we do not know. See Prov. 6:16-19)

Does the immutable God love one with an everlasting love, and then change and hate that one and send him to an eternal hell?

I don't see a large difference in the use of different tenses, "will believe" or "believing" in John 3.16.
I don't find that God "changes" anything when He loves the entire world, including those who reject Him, and then sends them to Eternal Damnation. Sending people who reject His presence to Outer Darkness is simply conforming to their choices--it is not unloving.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you a Lutheran?

I was confirmed a Lutheran. I continue to have Lutheran friends. I'm presently a member of the Assemblies of God denomination, and have worshiped in Pentecostal circles for about 50 years. I embrace a lot of Reform Theology, and consider it to be superior to Pentecostal Theology. However, older churches tend to lose their spiritual vitality over time. New revival movements are more exciting to me. Many revival denominations since Wesley have been Arminian. I'm more of the Predestinarian type, though not in exactly the same way as Luther or Calvin. Calvin seemed to rob the Lost of their Free Will. And Luther put all people under what he called "the Bondage of the Will." I'm a Free Will person, and yet Predestinarian. Figure that out! I'm not sure I can.

 

[Arthur81]

I don't see a large difference in the use of different tenses, "will believe" or "believing" in John 3.16.
I don't find that God "changes" anything when He loves the entire world, including those who reject Him, and then sends them to Eternal Damnation. Sending people who reject His presence to Outer Darkness is simply conforming to their choices--it is not unloving.

Present Tense: God loved the Gentile as well as the Jew, gave his Son, that everyone who is believing (has faith) will have eternal life
(This is a simple statement of fact, what is existing; it is not an invitation.)

KEEP IN MIND THE FOLLOWING VERSES -

"Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:18, NRSV)
and
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath." (John 3:36, NRSV)

Those who have faith have eternal, never ending life now and in the future! But, the Arminian construction is as follows -

Future Tense: God loved ever person who has lived, lives or will live, gave his Son, that whosoever WILL believe can save themselves.
(Yes, if Jesus died for every single person without exception, this becomes an invitation by which one saves himself, for Jesus saved no one.)

This is different than approaching the individual who wants to know how to be saved, as in the following -

"The jailer called for lights, and rushing in, he fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them outside and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They answered, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'” (Acts 16:29-31, NRSV)

The jailer was already moved upon by the Holy Spirit, thus he was trembling and asked the question.

When you make "world" mean every single individual on earth for whom Christ died, and then you say "whosoever will believe" will have eternal life; you let it be known that Jesus Christ saved no one, just offered a plan, if the man meets the condition thereby meriting the salvation.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I was confirmed a Lutheran. I continue to have Lutheran friends. I'm presently a member of the Assemblies of God denomination, and have worshiped in Pentecostal circles for about 50 years. I embrace a lot of Reform Theology, and consider it to be superior to Pentecostal Theology. However, older churches tend to lose their spiritual vitality over time. New revival movements are more exciting to me. Many revival denominations since Wesley have been Arminian. I'm more of the Predestinarian type, though not in exactly the same way as Luther or Calvin. Calvin seemed to rob the Lost of their Free Will. And Luther put all people under what he called "the Bondage of the Will." I'm a Free Will person, and yet Predestinarian. Figure that out! I'm not sure I can.

Love that last part.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Present Tense: God loved the Gentile as well as the Jew, gave his Son, that everyone who is believing (has faith) will have eternal life
(This is a simple statement of fact, what is existing; it is not an invitation.)

You see, that's where we (and the translators) differ. I do see this as an invitation. When Jesus called for the Jewish people to believe, he was inviting them to make a choice. Regardless of whether he knew who would take him up on his offer, it was a real offer. People did have a real choice.

I just happen to believe that the determining factor in what made people choose the way they did was God's initial choice for the elect. Those God did not plan were the product of human nature, and the children of corrupt human nature tend to opt for that nature. You see, it is predictable how men will choose. But God genuinely asks them to believe, or face the consequences. It is in fact an invitation.

But I do understand, and respect, where you are coming from. And it's certainly a reasonable way of looking at things. I just happen to believe it leads to some kind of "fatalism."

KEEP IN MIND THE FOLLOWING VERSES -

"Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:18, NRSV)
and
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath." (John 3:36, NRSV)

I believe these are not just statements of fact, but really, actual propositions. The consequences hinge on the choices. And so, God sees that the offer must be made, with the resulting choices. The consequences follow.

Those who have faith have eternal, never ending life now and in the future! But, the Arminian construction is as follows -

Future Tense: God loved ever person who has lived, lives or will live, gave his Son, that whosoever WILL believe can save themselves.
(Yes, if Jesus died for every single person without exception, this becomes an invitation by which one saves himself, for Jesus saved no one.)

This is different than approaching the individual who wants to know how to be saved, as in the following -

"The jailer called for lights, and rushing in, he fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them outside and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They answered, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'” (Acts 16:29-31, NRSV)

The jailer was already moved upon by the Holy Spirit, thus he was trembling and asked the question.

Yes, I understand how you see it. The jailer was asked to do what already was in his heart to do. I do agree.

When you make "world" mean every single individual on earth for whom Christ died, and then you say "whosoever will believe" will have eternal life; you let it be known that Jesus Christ saved no one, just offered a plan, if the man meets the condition thereby meriting the salvation.

Not really. God's plan was to make a proposition to the whole world, knowing His elect would "hear His voice," and the rest would opt for their own carnal interests, the interest of self-interest. Those God created for Himself are interested in God, and they will respond against their own carnal desires. They will be saved, including anybody in the family so inclined.

We're probably more in agreement than disagreed.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture. It is Bible orthodoxy as defended in the Synod of Dort against the heresy of the Arminians, and a response made to the Arminian's Five Points.

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

I was going to stay out of this but here is a problem that makes no sense....

"as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48,)

While in essence it is great for the Gentiles to hear this, because many would not even have known of an eternal life....

Questions that beg to be answered.

Moderate to full fledged unadulterated Calvin belivers....
..believe that Father God "predestined" a certain number of people to be saved before the foundations of the world.

If one was never told ... such as in Ats 13:48 that this predestination was a done deal..WOULD THAT MEAN THAT THEY WOULD MISS OUT ? IF NOT, WHY NOT?

Let us consider for a brief moment what was said in Eph 2: 8 NASB 95

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If you have been Predestined, WHY IN THE WORLD DO YOU NEED FAITH?

Calvin phrased it like this.

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

If you are predestined. IOW pre-chosen... belief and faith seems to be unnecessary . Yet the four corners of the 66 books we follow ... well, at least the New Testament part is full of that necessity.

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13, REB)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8, RSV)
also
"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8, GNB92)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5, KJV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, RSV)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:4-10, RSV)

For those who deny the biblical gospel nicknamed "Calvinism" you are returning to the Roman Catholic Church on free will. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will as he opposes Roman Catholic free-willism, and you will see it is not just Calvinism that teaches predestination -

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

What a comfort it is when you have deep concern for a loved one's salvation. Do you pray to the changeable 'free will' of the loved one, or do you pray to the Almighty Sovereign God who answers prayer. Salvation is 100%, ALL of God Almighty.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture. It is Bible orthodoxy as defended in the Synod of Dort against the heresy of the Arminians, and a response made to the Arminian's Five Points.

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13, REB)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8, RSV)
also
"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8, GNB92)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5, KJV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, RSV)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:4-10, RSV)

For those who deny the biblical gospel nicknamed "Calvinism" you are returning to the Roman Catholic Church on free will. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will as he opposes Roman Catholic free-willism, and you will see it is not just Calvinism that teaches predestination -

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

What a comfort it is when you have deep concern for a loved one's salvation. Do you pray to the changeable 'free will' of the loved one, or do you pray to the Almighty Sovereign God who answers prayer. Salvation is 100%, ALL of God Almighty.

That's actually true.
Because of the TULIP synopsis,and sundry other causes, Calvin has been smacked as the progenerator of the doctrine. When in fact he was teaching what others had for generations .

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

That's actually true.
Because of the TULIP synopsis,and sundry other causes, Calvin has been smacked as the progenerator of the doctrine. When in fact he was teaching what others had for generations .

Can you tell us what others. I know Luther leaned that way... but they were almost, if not exactly contemporaries.

Who going before taught it

 

[BlessedPeace]

Can you tell us what others. I know Luther leaned that way... but they were almost, if not exactly contemporaries.

Who going before taught it

Huldrych Zwingli, Augustine, are two that spring to mind.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Norman Geisler -
"Geisler maintains that he is a "moderate Calvinist," as outlined in his book Chosen But Free (1999)... He rejects the classical Calvinist tenets of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace, yet retains modified versions of total depravity and perseverance of the saints."

https://www.theopedia.com/norman-geisler

Is Arminianism actually "moderate Calvinism"?

"General Baptists held to the doctrine of a general atonement—that Christ died for all people and not only for an elect—and represented the more moderate Calvinism of Jacobus Arminius, a 17th-century Dutch theologian. "

Baptist - History

Baptist - History: Some Baptists believe that there has been an unbroken succession of Baptist churches from the days of John the Baptist and the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Others trace their origin to the Anabaptists, a 16th-century Protestant movement on the European continent. Most scholars...

www.britannica.com

I am a Particular Baptist and hold to the Five Responses coming out of the Synod of Dort. I find the use of the phrase "moderate Calvinism" to be nonsense. I could maybe see a view called "Four Point Calvinism", but a "Three Pointer" is absurd and not biblical. I see no way to term Arminianism any type of Calvinism. IMO

What people fail to understand is that Jesus is the propitiation for teh sins of the world. That means acceptable sacrifice. He is not the atonement of the sins of the world. In the NT atonement means erasing the debt of sin. In the OT it was a covering. Only the elect have their sins erased.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Huldrych Zwingli, Augustine, are two that spring to mind.

At the end of this I have a question for you or anyone to answer.

Zwingli, Protestant Reformation leader in Switzerland, Swiss Reformed Church founder (1484-1531)

Luther, German priest, theologian and author (1483–1546)

Calvin, French Protestant reformer (1509–1564)

All three of these were basically contemporaries of each other... but if you search for the term predestination
it is Calvins name that springs to the forefront... and one reason that folks say Calvinism over predestination

As to Augustine.... A search on Augustine (Christian theologian, philosopher, and saint (354–430)) nets us

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, Part 9

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught...

reasons.org

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, Part 9​

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice and deeds.

Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called “double predestination” was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1).

Augustine’s strong predestinarian views influenced a number of Roman Catholic thinkers in history, but has been, for the most part, ignored by their modern counterparts. Augustine’s basic perspectives on this topic were embraced largely by such Protestant Reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and are still reflected today in the historic confessional statements of the Reformed theological tradition.

Yet... is countered here by

Augustine Had It Right; Calvin Did Not

Some Protestants claim St. Augustine taught predestination and "faith alone" like Luther and Calvin. Are they correct?

www.catholic.com

Augustine Had It Right; Calvin Did Not​

Question:​

Some Protestants claim St. Augustine taught predestination and "faith alone" like Luther and Calvin. Are they correct?

Answer:​

St. Augustine of Hippo taught neither doctrine. He did not teach “double predestination,” i.e., that not only does God predestine some to heaven, he also ordains that others will go to hell so that there is nothing they can do to reverse their eternal damnation.

To be clear, John Calvin taught this erroneous doctrine, not Martin Luther. Among other problems, there is no free will of any consequence for those who are divinely reprobated. In other words, they will ultimately be damned and can’t do a thing about it. Augustine would have strongly disagreed with this heresy, as he affirmed man’s God-given free will and thus our ability to accept or reject God’s free gift of eternal salvation.
The Catholic understanding of predestination or divine election encompasses man’s free-will response in accepting God’s gift of eternal salvation. As Augustine, the great Father and Doctor of the Church, summarized so well, “God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us” (CCC 1847).
St. Augustine would also affirm that God knows from all eternity who will accept his gift of salvation and who will reject it. That’s because God is omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing), so nothing he creates—including the material realms of time and space—can limit him. Rather, to God, everything is present. He doesn’t have to wait for history to unfold as we mere humans do to find out what is going to happen. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be God.
On the other hand, God’s knowing how we will choose does not entail his willfully predetermining how we will choose. Here we see the worst part of Calvin’s “dreadful doctrine,” as he describes this teaching: it’s blasphemous. God, who is supposed to be all good, is ultimately responsible for those who go to hell, not the sinners themselves. A mere human mother desires that all of her children be saved. How much then would we expect from a divine creator?
Indeed, Scripture affirms that God desires the salvation of all mankind (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9), and that those who go to hell choose to exclude themselves from him and his heavenly kingdom (see, e.g., Matt. 7:13-14, 25:31-46; CCC 1033-37).
These passages from Matthew affirm that man is not saved by God’s grace through faith alone, contrary to what Martin Luther taught, but through both faith and good works (see also James 2:14-26). As a faithful Catholic bishop, which is beyond dispute, St. Augustine concurred with Jesus and St. James.
For more on predestination and double predestination, as well as man’s free will, click here. For more on the importance of good works, see CCC 1854-64, 2006-16.

Question:

When Nicodemus came to Jesus

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Why do you suppose that Jesus did not also say the choice was God's from the foundation of the earth?

And I still want to know why if one is predestined to eternal life and not destruction they have to be born again?

 

[BlessedPeace]

John1
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.a total inability to understand God's revealed truth.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,[but of God.

At the end of this I have a question for you or anyone to answer.

Zwingli, Protestant Reformation leader in Switzerland, Swiss Reformed Church founder (1484-1531)

Luther, German priest, theologian and author (1483–1546)

Calvin, French Protestant reformer (1509–1564)

All three of these were basically contemporaries of each other... but if you search for the term predestination
it is Calvins name that springs to the forefront... and one reason that folks say Calvinism over predestination

As to Augustine.... A search on Augustine (Christian theologian, philosopher, and saint (354–430)) nets us

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, Part 9

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught...

reasons.org

Yet... is countered here by

Augustine Had It Right; Calvin Did Not

Some Protestants claim St. Augustine taught predestination and "faith alone" like Luther and Calvin. Are they correct?

www.catholic.com

Question:

When Nicodemus came to Jesus

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Why do you suppose that Jesus did not also say the choice was God's from the foundation of the earth?

And I still want to know why if one is predestined to eternal life and not destruction they have to be born again?

I think the RCC would not be a reliable source given one of their saints is Augustine.
I think if he figures in other traditions that makes him not exclusively their own.

Augustine taught Predestination,
Predetermination.

https://sites.nd.edu/ujournal/files/2014/07/Peterson_05-06.pdf

I think if we cast aside Augustine, Z,and even Calvin,as teachers of predestination we can't escape the fact that Jesus taught the same thing.

The identification of The Elect of God,is one indicator.

That Jesus said,no one comes to him unless the Father calls them. And of all the Father gives Him, He (Jesus) shall lose none.

Then there is in Revelation The Lambs Book of Life. Written by God before the creation of the world.