Is there a "moderate Calvinism"?

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Arthur81

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Norman Geisler -
"Geisler maintains that he is a "moderate Calvinist," as outlined in his book Chosen But Free (1999)... He rejects the classical Calvinist tenets of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace, yet retains modified versions of total depravity and perseverance of the saints."

Is Arminianism actually "moderate Calvinism"?

"General Baptists held to the doctrine of a general atonement—that Christ died for all people and not only for an elect—and represented the more moderate Calvinism of Jacobus Arminius, a 17th-century Dutch theologian. "

I am a Particular Baptist and hold to the Five Responses coming out of the Synod of Dort. I find the use of the phrase "moderate Calvinism" to be nonsense. I could maybe see a view called "Four Point Calvinism", but a "Three Pointer" is absurd and not biblical. I see no way to term Arminianism any type of Calvinism. IMO
 

ChristisGod

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Norman Geisler -
"Geisler maintains that he is a "moderate Calvinist," as outlined in his book Chosen But Free (1999)... He rejects the classical Calvinist tenets of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace, yet retains modified versions of total depravity and perseverance of the saints."

Is Arminianism actually "moderate Calvinism"?

"General Baptists held to the doctrine of a general atonement—that Christ died for all people and not only for an elect—and represented the more moderate Calvinism of Jacobus Arminius, a 17th-century Dutch theologian. "

I am a Particular Baptist and hold to the Five Responses coming out of the Synod of Dort. I find the use of the phrase "moderate Calvinism" to be nonsense. I could maybe see a view called "Four Point Calvinism", but a "Three Pointer" is absurd and not biblical. I see no way to term Arminianism any type of Calvinism. IMO
You cannot be a calvinist and reject the U,L or I. He is an arminian if he rejects those or just really confused.
 

BlessedPeace

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Humans.
We attach our name to a version of the Gospel of Jesus and then have followers calling themselves after our name, not that of Jesus.
Calvinist
Arminian
Methodist
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Baptist

Jesus taught the Holiness good news.
Christian is from Antioch Turkey when local pagans saw the title as implying we were little versions of Jesus, little Christ's.

We're Christians. Of Christ.All those for whom their doctrines were named for were Christian first.

I believe our loyalty is to the truth of the Gospel . While loyalty to men's versions of this rips us apart.

Just read how we speak of Calvinism. And what we're saying to anyone who is Calvinist here. If they would dare admit it after.

Or Arminians.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand.
What about a church?
 
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Arthur81

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Humans.
We attach our name to a version of the Gospel of Jesus and then have followers calling themselves after our name, not that of Jesus.
Calvinist
Arminian
Methodist
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Baptist

Jesus taught the Holiness good news.
Christian is from Antioch Turkey when local pagans saw the title as implying we were little versions of Jesus, little Christ's.

We're Christians. Of Christ.All those for whom their doctrines were named for were Christian first.

I believe our loyalty is to the truth of the Gospel . While loyalty to men's versions of this rips us apart.

Just read how we speak of Calvinism. And what we're saying to anyone who is Calvinist here. If they would dare admit it after.

Or Arminians.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand.
What about a church?
I'm a believer in 'truth in advertising'. Those that merely call themselves a "community", church I have no idea what they teach. If I see a church sign that reads "Baptist, Independent, Fundamental, Pre-mil and Pre-trib" I know what that church is teaching, and I know I'd not fit in today, even though as a boy I heard the gospel, and professed my faith in such a church. When the church sign says "Wesleyan" I know what they believe, or a sign reads "Free Will Baptist" I know they are Arminian.
 

Behold

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God isn't a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist
The Holy Spirit is not A Calvinist
Paul the apostle is not a Calvinist.

So, if you ask someone ... "are you a Christian", and they say...>"Yes im a Calvinist'.

Then what are you really dealing with.....

There are "christian" forums that are nothing but John Calvinism training camps.

All the Mods will have some type of photo or painting or drawing of Calvin as their "alt", or similar.

Its really just quite a cancer on the Body of Christ, that IS this one person's teaching .....

And even if you can find some part of John Calvinism that does not totally spit on the Grace of God, , He still denies the Cross, as the core of his Theology.

He LIMITS the Cross, and God does not.

Jesus on The Cross says...>"ALL come"... "I died for EVERYONE"s Sin". See John 3:16 for the UPDATE.

John Calvinism, limits this to the "pre-destined".

God does not.

Calvin teaches that YOU or your Mother or your children might be a "vessel chosen for Destruction", and were born to be that one, and God won't choose you for Salvation.

THE DEVIL LOVES John Calvinism.
He should.
He created it through Him.
 

Arthur81

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God isn't a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist
The Holy Spirit is not A Calvinist
Paul the apostle is not a Calvinist.

So, if you ask someone ... "are you a Christian", and they say...>"Yes im a Calvinist'.

Then what are you really dealing with.....

There are "christian" forums that are nothing but John Calvinism training camps.

All the Mods will have some type of photo or painting or drawing of Calvin as their "alt", or similar.

Its really just quite a cancer on the Body of Christ, that IS this one person's teaching .....

And even if you can find some part of John Calvinism that does not totally spit on the Grace of God, , He still denies the Cross, as the core of his Theology.

He LIMITS the Cross, and God does not.

Jesus on The Cross says...>"ALL come"... "I died for EVERYONE"s Sin". See John 3:16 for the UPDATE.

John Calvinism, limits this to the "pre-destined".

God does not.

Calvin teaches that YOU or your Mother or your children might be a "vessel chosen for Destruction", and were born to be that one, and God won't choose you for Salvation.

THE DEVIL LOVES John Calvinism.
He should.
He created it through Him.
Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture. It is Bible orthodoxy as defended in the Synod of Dort against the heresy of the Arminians, and a response made to the Arminian's Five Points.

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13, REB)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8, RSV)
also
"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8, GNB92)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5, KJV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, RSV)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:4-10, RSV)

For those who deny the biblical gospel nicknamed "Calvinism" you are returning to the Roman Catholic Church on free will. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will as he opposes Roman Catholic free-willism, and you will see it is not just Calvinism that teaches predestination -

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"

What a comfort it is when you have deep concern for a loved one's salvation. Do you pray to the changeable 'free will' of the loved one, or do you pray to the Almighty Sovereign God who answers prayer. Salvation is 100%, ALL of God Almighty.
 

Behold

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Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture.

Calvinist believe that, of course., but God does not.
And keep in mind that Calvin didnt write the bible, as i notice that hyper calvinist's get really upset if you talk about their IDOL, vs, kneel before Him, as they do., especially on their Forums.

Also, , ive never met a Calvinist who can understand what J-Calvin didnt understand.
They are afflicted with the same mind blindness, and i'll reveal it for the Readers.

See, what Calvin did..... was change "Pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ"..... into..."Pre-destined elect" - Calvinism theology.

And that verse simply means that once you are born again, then you are predestined to become even more, later on.

Calvin changed that into "God pre-destined ONLY some to be saved, and others to go to HELL".

He remodeled that verse based on his misunderstanding of one thing, and ive not met a Calvinist yet who isn't afflicted with the same mind blindness., as that is what deception does to you.

Calvin's problem, is that He did not correctly comprehend or understand "God's Foreknowledge" = as "God knows everything before it happens"... and that is all it means.
Calvin, and Calvinists have a mind blindness that does not allow them to understand that..

See.....God KNOWING everything, before it happens., = "God's Foreknowledge", = Knowing BE-FORE, it happens, ALL that will happen..

Is not God CAUSING it to happen...., Its only God KNOWING it will, BE-FORE it happens.

So, Calvin had a mental issue within his comprehension that did not allow him to UNDERSTAND THAT = "FORE-KNOWING" IS NOT FORE-CAUSING.

Calvin and Calvinists can not understand that God KNOWING everything that is going to happen next, (Foreknowledge) is not God CAUSING it all to happen, next.

SO, WHAT J-Calvin did was redefine...."Fore-Knowledge" as "Pre-destined" and based on that misinterpretation and theological ERROR,..... created an entire Theological Heresy from that one root misunderstanding.

This is why Calvinists are obsessed with "pre-destined"... as this is the Core HERESY that drives Calvinism.
And it all stems from Calvin's inability to understand that God knowing everything before it happens next, is not God causing it to happen next.

Calvin redefined "Fore-Knowledge" as "Pre-destined" and created a Cross denying heresy that has mind blinded billions for the last 500 + yrs.
 
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ChristisGod

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Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture. It is Bible orthodoxy as defended in the Synod of Dort against the heresy of the Arminians, and a response made to the Arminian's Five Points.

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13, REB)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8, RSV)
also
"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8, GNB92)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5, KJV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, RSV)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:4-10, RSV)

For those who deny the biblical gospel nicknamed "Calvinism" you are returning to the Roman Catholic Church on free will. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will as he opposes Roman Catholic free-willism, and you will see it is not just Calvinism that teaches predestination -

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"

What a comfort it is when you have deep concern for a loved one's salvation. Do you pray to the changeable 'free will' of the loved one, or do you pray to the Almighty Sovereign God who answers prayer. Salvation is 100%, ALL of God Almighty.
The gospel is for all not just a few and tulip is not the gospel it’s the anti gospel. Israel was Gods chosen/ elect yet they died in the wilderness in unbelief. The same with judas was one of Gods chosen/ elect disciples. So much for election.

Double Predestination is nothing but an assault on Gods nature and character. A god who does that is unloving by definition. That god cannot be said to be : God is love. That god would be said to be : god is unloving.

For the 8 or so verses you posted there are 100’s which opposes double predestination and affirm mans free will.

A god who forces or coerces another to love them is unloving and a moral monster.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Behold

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The gospel is for all not just a few and tulip is not the gospel it’s the anti gospel. Israel was Gods chosen/ elect yet they died in the wilderness in unbelief. The same with judas was one of Gods chosen/ elect disciples. So much for election.

Double Predestination is nothing but an assault on Gods nature and character. A god who does that is unloving by definition. That god cannot be said to be : God is love. That god would be said to be : god is unloving.

For the 8 or so verses you posted there are 100’s which opposes double predestination and affirm mans free will.

A god who forces or coerces another to love them is unloving and a moral monster.

hope this helps !!!

Calvin has God "creating evil" as if the Devil is asleep on a Beach somewhere, for the last 200O ys.

Calvin has God forcing Salvation down your throat, or not allowing you to believe at all, as "pre-destined".

its really a terrible thing that Calvin has done to the Church, as its Satanic.

And as you pointed out @ChristisGod..... The Cross is for : " Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS" and that is all of us.

Calvin read John 3:16, that Said that God sent His Son for the WORLD of People, and Calving said...>"um no, let me show you what you did God, as i know better then you"..... "here is what you meant to say, God".
 
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ChristisGod

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Calvin has God "creating evil" as if the Devil is asleep on a Beach somewhere, for the last 200O ys.

Calvin has God forcing Salvation down your throat, or not allowing you to believe at all, as "pre-destined".

its really a terrible thing that Calvin has done to the Church, as its Satanic.

And as you pointed out @ChristisGod..... The Cross is for : " Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS" and that is all of us.

Calvin read John 3:16, that Said that God sent His Son for the WORLD of People, and Calving said...>"um no, let me show you what you did God, as i know better then you"..... "here is what you meant to say, God".
And God predestined you and most born again believers to reject tulip and some to accept it. What kind of dysfunctional god would create such chaos within the body of Christ?

God is a God of unity not chaos. They believe you and I have no choice to believe tulip and neither did they since God preprogrammed them to believe it before creation. Not a single thought, action, deed or movement of a single molucule comes to pass that their god did not determine. Its absurd.

calvin himself was distraught over determinism that is caused him utter desperation and depression. A good read is calvins desperation by Phil Blair.

I bought this book after watching this dialogue.

 

Behold

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And God predestined you and most born again believers to reject tulip and some to accept it. What kind of dysfunctional god would create such chaos within the body of Christ?

God is a God of unity not chaos. They believe you and I have no choice to believe tulip and neither did they since God preprogrammed them to believe it before creation. Not a single though, action, deed or movement of a single molucule comes to pass that their god did not determine. Its absurd.

It is absurd..

So, lets just for a second, for the sake of a Calvinist who might find all this one day and think........"hummm, something is wrong with the picture".

Lets look at the Big Picture.

Christians can agree that you go to hell because you died a Christ rejector, never born again.
Or as Jesus says.."if you dont believe in me, you'll die in your sins"...

So, as John Calvinism teaches.......>"God chose only some"... then that means that God is responsible for not choosing others.
That means that According to Calvin, God caused CHRIST REJECTION, in some..... and then they die and go to Hell for it.

Why? = Rejected Christ and were never born again, because God would not choose them to be born again, to be saved.

So, How can God, be right, true, honest, and "God is Love", if God wont choose some for heaven, and then damns them to Hell for their "UNBELIEF".

See that?
So, once a Calvinist sees that.... if they CAN see it....'', they can make a change and escape the BEWITCHING that Calvin has put on their Mind... or as Paul teaches in Galatians....>" WHO has BEWITCHED YOU< that you should not obey the Truth".

Who?

A.) John Calvin, that's "who".
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Calvinism is the gospel message found explicitly stated in scripture. It is Bible orthodoxy as defended in the Synod of Dort against the heresy of the Arminians, and a response made to the Arminian's Five Points.

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13, REB)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8, RSV)
also
"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8, GNB92)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5, KJV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, RSV)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:4-10, RSV)

For those who deny the biblical gospel nicknamed "Calvinism" you are returning to the Roman Catholic Church on free will. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will as he opposes Roman Catholic free-willism, and you will see it is not just Calvinism that teaches predestination -

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"

What a comfort it is when you have deep concern for a loved one's salvation. Do you pray to the changeable 'free will' of the loved one, or do you pray to the Almighty Sovereign God who answers prayer. Salvation is 100%, ALL of God Almighty.
EXCEPT...EXCEPT... You need always compare the two so all can see where the differences are.

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185).

IOW: if someone is not chosen to be the elect before they exit their mother's womb..... they are not going to make it.


From the Presbytery of the United States....https://www.westminsterconfession.org/resources/the-doctrines-of-grace/the-reformed-faith-and-arminianism/

Predestination to life and foreordination to death mean substantially that from all eternity God sovereignly, according to the counsel of His will, chose or elected a definite number of the human race to everlasting life, that He elected them as individuals, and that in making this election He was not conditioned by His foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in both, but that the election was determined by that sovereign good pleasure which finds its whole ground and explanation in Himself and in nothing else. In other words, God by an absolute, unconditional, and unchangeable decree determined the salvation of certain persons out of free grace and love, and that in accordance with that decree He executes the purpose of His grace and love. The others not elected, by the exercise of the same sovereign good pleasure He decreed to pass by and ordain to everlasting destruction as the reward of their sins.


The Arminian position involves, as we have already hinted, more than negation. The Remonstrance reads thus: “Article I. That God, by an eternal unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through his grace, even to the end.”

On superficial examination it might appear that there is no essential difference between this and the position set forth in the Reformed Standards. Does it not speak of an eternal and unchangeable purpose of God by which He determines to save all who believe on His Son and persevere to the end? It certainly does this, and no one in this controversy will deny that what is said is as such true. God does eternally and unchangeably determine to save all who believe and persevere in holiness to the end. But there is a chasm of difference between what the Arminian here affirms and what the Calvinist affirms.

The difference is just this. The Calvinist affirms that God eternally and unchangeably decrees the salvation of certain persons whom He sovereignly distinguishes by this decree from those who are not appointed to salvation. In pursuance of this decree of salvation He decrees the ends towards its accomplishment, and so decrees to give faith and perseverance to all those predestinated to salvation. The Arminian denies any such decree bearing upon the salvation of individuals, and what he affirms in its place is that God decrees or purposes to save all who believe and persevere in faith and obedience to the end. In the former case there is the eternal destination to salvation of persons who are the objects of God’s sovereign election; in the latter case there is the divine purpose to save the class characterized by faith and perseverance. In the ultimate analysis the former is the election of persons, the latter is the election of qualities with the provision that all who exhibit these qualities will be saved.

The hallmark of Calvinism is unconditional election and that is exactly what this highest type of Arminianism vigorously denies. It professes indeed fixed and unchangeable election of individuals. But what is meant is, that, since God decrees to save all who believe and since He knows perfectly beforehand and from eternity who will believe, He on the basis of that foresight as ground and cause elects these individuals to eternal life. God elects all whom He foresees will believe and persevere to the end. His election then is determined by His foresight of some difference that comes to exist among men, a difference which He Himself does not cause but which in the final analysis is due to sovereign choice on the part of the human will.
The determining factor in this type of election then is not the sovereign unconditioned good pleasure of God but the decision of the human will which God from eternity foresees. Election is not the source of faith, but faith foreseen is made the source or condition of election.
 

ChristisGod

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It is absurd..

So, lets just for a second, for the sake of a Calvinist who might find all this one day and think........"hummm, something is wrong with the picture".

Lets look at the Big Picture.

Christians can agree that you go to hell because you died a Christ rejector, never born again.
Or as Jesus says.."if you dont believe in me, you'll die in your sins"...

So, as John Calvinism teaches.......>"God chose only some"... then that means that God is responsible for not choosing others.
That means that According to Calvin, God caused CHRIST REJECTION, in some..... and then they die and go to Hell for it.

Why? = Rejected Christ and were never born again, because God would not choose them to be born again, to be saved.

So, How can God, be right, true, honest, and "God is Love", if God wont choose some for heaven, and then damns them to Hell for their "UNBELIEF".

See that?
So, once a Calvinist sees that.... if they CAN see it....'', they can make a change and escape the BEWITCHING that Calvin has put on their Mind... or as Paul teaches in Galatians....>" WHO has BEWITCHED YOU< that you should not obey the Truth".

Who?

A.) John Calvin, that's "who".
can you imagine if you were capable of saving all 10 of your children in a fire but you only saved 3. How is that loving ?

remember they had no way of escaping the fire that you started with the intention of only saving the three you chose to save and let the other 7 burn and die while you watched it happen all for your own glory ?

what kind of moral monster would that be but that is exactly what calvin taught and believed.
 

Behold

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can you imagine if you were capable of saving all 10 of your children in a fire but you only saved 3. How is that loving ?

"theological insanity", to teach that God chooses you to burn in the Lake of fire, (Pre-destined to be born to burn)....

Why?
Because Calvin teaches that God wont allow SOME to believe in Jesus and be saved, After He sent His Son to die on the Cross for : John 3:16

Calvinism = "God caused you to reject Christ so that you can be sent to hell for your unbelief".

So, WHY would God choose (pre-destine) only some? When we are "all have sinned" and "God is no respecter of persons".. /?????

And people, believe this theological insanity....
They build FORUMS and Denominations to spread this Gospel of Cross Rejection that Spits on the Cross, and Spits on the Grace of God.

The first time i ever actually dealt with one of these Calvin worshipers, was many years ago.

You have heard of the movie.."The Boy Who Could Fly" ? Its a '80 movie, very sweet, one of my favorites.
Well the BOY, in the Movie, ... Jay Underwood, is a Hyper Calvinist, and i tried to get Him out of it...
He was actually very calm when we got into the theology.... and unlike most Calvinist who "flame on" Hateful, immediately if you "come against" Calvinism, He and I had some good conversations.
I didnt change His mind, but now, over 2 decades later, maybe God has....
 
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ChristisGod

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"theological insanity", to teach that God chooses you to burn in the Lake of fire, (Pre-destined to be born to burn)....

Why?
Because Calvin teaches that God wont allow SOME to believe in Jesus and be saved, After He sent His Son to die on the Cross for : John 3:16

Calvinism = "God caused you to reject Christ so that you can be sent to hell for your unbelief".

So, WHY would God choose (pre-destine) only some? When we are "all have sinned" and "God is no respecter of persons".. /?????

And people, believe this theological insanity....
They build FORUMS and Denominations to spread this Gospel of Cross Rejection that Spits on the Cross, and Spits on the Grace of God.

The first time i ever actually dealt with one of these Calvin worshipers, was many years ago.

You have heard of the movie.."The Boy Who Could Fly" ? Its a '80 movie, very sweet, one of my favorites.
Well the BOY, in the Movie, ... Jay Underwood, is a Hyper Calvinist, and i tried to get Him out of it...
He was actually very calm when we got into the theology.... and unlike most Calvinist who "flame on" Hateful, immediately if you "come against" Calvinism, He and I had some good conversations.
I didnt change His mind, but now, over 2 decades later, maybe God has....
Now you know why I left calvinism. :)
 
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Behold

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can you imagine if you were capable of saving all 10 of your children in a fire but you only saved 3. How is that loving ?

Here is the "inside Joke" regarding these Calvin worshipers..

The Joke: = God predestined SOME to be saved.

Their PUNCHLINE..: = Its me and all my family and friends and church members who are absolutely the predestined Elect...., but its probably not you and your family and your church members.

What a CULT
What a SATANIC JOKE.

Can you hear the DEVIL Laughing?
 

BlessedPeace

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Here is the "inside Joke" regarding these Calvin worshipers..

The Joke: = God predestined SOME to be saved.

Their PUNCHLINE..: = Its me and all my family and friends and church members who are absolutely the predestined Elect...., but its probably not you and your family and your church members.

What a CULT
What a SATANIC JOKE.

Can you hear the DEVIL Laughing?
No.

"You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” John 15:16

And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matt 13:10-11
 

Randy Kluth

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Norman Geisler -
"Geisler maintains that he is a "moderate Calvinist," as outlined in his book Chosen But Free (1999)... He rejects the classical Calvinist tenets of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace, yet retains modified versions of total depravity and perseverance of the saints."

Is Arminianism actually "moderate Calvinism"?

"General Baptists held to the doctrine of a general atonement—that Christ died for all people and not only for an elect—and represented the more moderate Calvinism of Jacobus Arminius, a 17th-century Dutch theologian. "

I am a Particular Baptist and hold to the Five Responses coming out of the Synod of Dort. I find the use of the phrase "moderate Calvinism" to be nonsense. I could maybe see a view called "Four Point Calvinism", but a "Three Pointer" is absurd and not biblical. I see no way to term Arminianism any type of Calvinism. IMO
Interesting. I don't know all of the nuances, but generally see myself as a Calvinist, or Predestinarian, simply because I believe God specifically identified who who chose to bring into the world on the basis of human fidelity to His Word.

In other words, all those who are not chosen are the product of human freedom extending beyond God's Word who see no irresistible impulse towards wanting to sacrifice their autonomy for dependence upon Christ. For these non-predestinated yielding the will to Christ is the worst form of tyranny, and freedom to go one's own way appears to be the default choice of Man if he wants his choices to be free from God's control.

Terms like Total Depravity are subject to interpretation. One uses the term to prove Man, reduced by Sin to be utterly void of God's Word, cannot do any good. Another uses the term to prove Man, created by the Word of God, can do good, but is utterly unable to do enough good to have Eternal Life apart from the grace and mercy of Christ.

My own view is that Man was created by God's Word to be able to emulate God and His righteousness. But just one sin has made all men subject to death and unable to rise from the dead without resort to dependence upon Christ. So all men can do good, but never achieve the perfection needed for Eternal Life apart from the grace and mercy of Christ.

In short, I agree that mixing the terms Calvinist and Arminianism is an exercise in futility and confusion. However, in reality there are nuanced views of the principles of belief of each side, and therefore one may speak of a moderate Calvinism or a moderate Arminianism.
 

Randy Kluth

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Humans.
We attach our name to a version of the Gospel of Jesus and then have followers calling themselves after our name, not that of Jesus.
Calvinist
Arminian
Methodist
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Baptist

Jesus taught the Holiness good news.
Christian is from Antioch Turkey when local pagans saw the title as implying we were little versions of Jesus, little Christ's.

We're Christians. Of Christ.All those for whom their doctrines were named for were Christian first.

I believe our loyalty is to the truth of the Gospel . While loyalty to men's versions of this rips us apart.

Just read how we speak of Calvinism. And what we're saying to anyone who is Calvinist here. If they would dare admit it after.

Or Arminians.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand.
What about a church?
That's a terrible oversimplification. These men and their respective movements represented, in their time, the address of important Christian concerns. So Christians had to take sides, even if all the issues were not perfectly worked out

For example, I embrace Lutheranism in the time of Luther because he made a stand against indulgences and against Catholic tyranny, which had been prohibiting reform thinking and the work of Scripture translation. It is not following Luther, as opposed to following Christ.

Luther represented a movement, inspired by Christ, so that reform would make inroads into the Christian and pagan cultures both. To just glibly say, "I follow Christ--not Luther," completely misses the point and even worse, avoids supporting the role of reform and proper evangelism. It is to capitulate to religious tyranny and to social injustice, neglecting to "fight the good fight."
 

Arthur81

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A close and detailed reexamination of John 3:16 -
Neuroscience: "The brain uses past learning as the guide for what to expect in the future. Because of prediction, present experience and responses are shaped by the past. Predictions from early life can be deeply encoded and enduring. Predictions based on the past allow for more efficient brain function in the present, but can lead to mistakes." The predicting brain: unconscious repetition, conscious reflection and therapeutic change - PubMed

Many have been taught a mistaken understanding of Jn 3:16. If we have been taught the mistake, the more we hear the same mistake, the stronger imprint it makes in the mind and the verse will always be understood in that mistaken manner, unless one uses determination to study the verse anew. It is not easy to shake off an oft-repeated belief that is wrong. The following is how most misunderstand Jn 3:16 -

"God loved every person in the world so much, that he gave his only Son, so that whosoever will believe will not perish but have everlasting life." That is NOT what the verse states!

Here is a literal translation as well as a Dynamic Equivalence translation and it is the present tense -

"for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during." (John 3:16, YLT)
"‘God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16, REB)

The text reads "the world" and kosmos according to Thayer and the BDAG can have 8 different meanings. What in the context of Jn 3:16 would make this mean "every person in the world"?

Second, the KJV uses an archaic word "believeth - verb archaic Third-person singular simple present indicative form of believe"

"Present indicative is a tense of a verb that expresses action or state in the present time. It is used to express what occurs or is true at the time of speaking and of what is habitual or characteristic or is always or necessarily true, that is sometimes used to refer to action in the past, and that is sometimes used for future events.2 The present indicative is commonly used to express the present continuous, and to emphasize the present continuous, expressions..."

The verse does not read "whosoever will believeth", but "whosoever believeth". The word for future, "will" is not seen in Jn 3:16 as it is in Rv 22:17 -

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17, KJV)

In current English, it is not "whosoever" but "everyone". In Webster's 1828 "WHOSOEVER, pron. [who, so, and ever.] Any one; any person whatever. Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Revelations 22." Even though you hear Rv 22:17 compared to Jn 3:16 as if they both say "whosoever will", Jn 3:16 DOES NOT.

Jn 3:16 is a statement of existing fact, "believing" or "hath faith". Rv 22:17 is an invitation. Trying to make Jn 3:16 into an invitation is to distort the grammar of the verse. What about the meaning of "world" here? We use the word "world" so often in a rather general sense, as in:

"She has been all over the world."
"Fast Food outlets seem to be taking over the world."
"The world was, and remains, shocked."

Is there anything in this John chapter 3 to lead us into thinking world here means every person in the world? I see no hint of that. But I do see a reason to see Jesus is using the word in an expansive way to indicate that God loves other people who are not Jews. Nicodemus would have the typical Jewish idea that only Jews are God's people(John 8:33, 39; Mt 3:9; Lk 3:8) and Jesus is setting him straight. Nicodemus has standing as a Jew: a Pharisee v1, a Ruler of the Jews v1, the Teacher of Israel v10. Peter also had the typical Jewish outlook at the first -

"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28, KJV)

John, who wrote this gospel, also wrote Revelation where we get an idea of what he means by "world" in such a context as this, the context of Jesus giving His life. -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV) John also uses "world" in a similar manner in 1 Jn 2:2... it is not just us Jews, but the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews He is the blood atonement for.

The Apostle Paul also uses "world" to represent Gentiles -

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Rom 11:12, KJV)

The Arminian claims that Jesus died for every man who lived, lives or will live; but he saved no one; he merely provided a hypothetical salvation that becomes real if a man adds his faith to it. In other words, it is a merited salvation, earned by the person.

KEEP IN MIND - "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jer 31:3, KJV)
(Can you imagine God loving all men with this everlasting love, and then sending them to hell?)

"...but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals." (Mal 1:3, NRSV)
"As it is written, 'I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.'” (Rom 9:13, NRSV)
(It is clear God does hate some persons, whose identity we do not know. See Prov. 6:16-19)

Does the immutable God love one with an everlasting love, and then change and hate that one and send him to an eternal hell?