Is there anything that you like about Muslims?

[Hazelelponi]

No not really. I've drawn the conclusions I have from the record of Hagar's encounter with the angel but I've never had it confirmed by anyone of that linage.

Out of interest, my sister married a Bedouin but it didn't last long. He insisted after the marriage that any children would be educated as Muslims. It was her reason for terminating the marriage which they did amicably.

It's good it was amicable, though stupid he didn't tell her upfront. He should have.

 

[quietthinker]

It's good it was amicable, though stupid he didn't tell her upfront. He should have.

I s'pose naivety and inexperience are bedfellows of stupidity......but I must add, stupidity has a raft of bedfellows.

 

[keithr]

I have assumed Ishmael is the Father of the Arab clan....Is this correct?

I wrote this about 22 years ago (shortly after the Twin Towers attack on 9/11/2001:

The Perpetual Hatred

To understand more clearly what God foretold concerning the events that would take place between the nation of Israel and the Arab nations in these latter days, we need to trace these nations history back to their roots.

Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (he also afterwards had other descendants – Gen. 25:1-6). Isaac had twin sons, Esau and Jacob. Jacob was later renamed Israel by God, and the Israelites are his descendants. Esau (who was also called Edom) married a descendant of Ishmael named Bashemath, or Mahalath, (Gen. 28:9 & 36:3), and from Ishmael and Esau, together with Ammon and Moab (descendants of Abraham’s brother Haran) came the Arabs.



In Eze. 35:5 God refers to the “perpetual hatred” between the descendants of Esau and Israel. Today Israel is surrounded by the descendants of Esau (Arabs), and they still have a hatred for Israel.

God foretold to Israel that he would scatter them amongst all the nations of the world (Deu. 28:64), and that he would in the latter days gather them back to their homeland (Deu. 30:3,5). This has already been fulfilled, with the nation of Israel having been re-established in 1948.

God also foretold the events that are to take place in these latter days, after Israel had been gathered back to their homeland. He tells us that the Arab nations shall conspire together against Israel to destroy them. Psalm 83:1-8:

“Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: the tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot.”​

This lists all of the nations that surround Israel today (Assur, for example, is Syria), and we can deduce that this is prophetic rather than telling of past events because these nations have never before all joined together against Israel.

Note that Psalm 83 mentions “crafty counsel” against Israel. Compare this with the PLO’s Phased Plan of 1974, which is still their plan. In brief it states:

• Through the “armed struggle” (i.e. terrorism), to establish an “independent combatant national authority” over any territory that is “liberated” from Israeli rule. (Article 2)
• To continue the struggle against Israel, using the territory of the national authority as a base of operations. (Article 4)
• To provoke an all-out war in which Israel’s Arab’s neighbours destroy it entirely (“liberate all Palestinian territory”). (Article 8)

In Jer. 48:47 and 49:6 God foretells that He “will restore the fortunes of Moab” and Ammon “in the latter days” (NRSV). Moab and Ammon are two of the tribes that form the present day Palestinians. For most of their history they have been a displaced people, living a nomadic culture, yet in recent years they have grown into an internationally recognised community that even has a representation at the United Nations.

God tells us that the Arabs, and eventually all nations, shall gather together against Israel and that they shall overcome it by force. But then God says that he will fight for Israel and defeat those nations “by the hand of my people Israel”, i.e. Israel shall fight back and defeat them. This will been seen to be the work of God in the same way as in Israel’s past they were able to defeat nations that were stronger and outnumbered them because of God’s help. Shortly after this it will become apparent to all nations that Christ is reigning on earth. Consider the following verses:

Zechariah 12:2,3 - Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zechariah 14:2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 12:9 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:3 - Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Ezekiel 25:14-16 - And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred; {or, perpetual hatred} therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[quietthinker]

Lol... True.

Something came to my mind, as to why you were asking questions..

Are you basically thinking we are still in the middle east fighting the exact same wars and conflicts that began 3,000 + years ago?

If so, if this is what you're thinking, then you are correct.

My family has property ownership records and family lineage that goes back 3,000 years because we want our land back (and Israel is our land, we can still prove it) that and the children of Ishmael are still fighting for their birthright - the Torah was corrupted by the Jews to steal birthright...

It's almost so ridiculous it's funny... But there are really really really long memories in the middle east.. and not much forgiveness.

yeah, i did make that connection re the fighting.

 

[quietthinker]

I wrote this about 22 years ago (shortly after the Twin Towers attack on 9/11/2001:

The Perpetual Hatred

To understand more clearly what God foretold concerning the events that would take place between the nation of Israel and the Arab nations in these latter days, we need to trace these nations history back to their roots.

Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (he also afterwards had other descendants – Gen. 25:1-6). Isaac had twin sons, Esau and Jacob. Jacob was later renamed Israel by God, and the Israelites are his descendants. Esau (who was also called Edom) married a descendant of Ishmael named Bashemath, or Mahalath, (Gen. 28:9 & 36:3), and from Ishmael and Esau, together with Ammon and Moab (descendants of Abraham’s brother Haran) came the Arabs.

View attachment 40067

In Eze. 35:5 God refers to the “perpetual hatred” between the descendants of Esau and Israel. Today Israel is surrounded by the descendants of Esau (Arabs), and they still have a hatred for Israel.

God foretold to Israel that he would scatter them amongst all the nations of the world (Deu. 28:64), and that he would in the latter days gather them back to their homeland (Deu. 30:3,5). This has already been fulfilled, with the nation of Israel having been re-established in 1948.

God also foretold the events that are to take place in these latter days, after Israel had been gathered back to their homeland. He tells us that the Arab nations shall conspire together against Israel to destroy them. Psalm 83:1-8:

“Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: the tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot.”​

This lists all of the nations that surround Israel today (Assur, for example, is Syria), and we can deduce that this is prophetic rather than telling of past events because these nations have never before all joined together against Israel.

Note that Psalm 83 mentions “crafty counsel” against Israel. Compare this with the PLO’s Phased Plan of 1974, which is still their plan. In brief it states:

• Through the “armed struggle” (i.e. terrorism), to establish an “independent combatant national authority” over any territory that is “liberated” from Israeli rule. (Article 2)
• To continue the struggle against Israel, using the territory of the national authority as a base of operations. (Article 4)
• To provoke an all-out war in which Israel’s Arab’s neighbours destroy it entirely (“liberate all Palestinian territory”). (Article 8)

In Jer. 48:47 and 49:6 God foretells that He “will restore the fortunes of Moab” and Ammon “in the latter days” (NRSV). Moab and Ammon are two of the tribes that form the present day Palestinians. For most of their history they have been a displaced people, living a nomadic culture, yet in recent years they have grown into an internationally recognised community that even has a representation at the United Nations.

God tells us that the Arabs, and eventually all nations, shall gather together against Israel and that they shall overcome it by force. But then God says that he will fight for Israel and defeat those nations “by the hand of my people Israel”, i.e. Israel shall fight back and defeat them. This will been seen to be the work of God in the same way as in Israel’s past they were able to defeat nations that were stronger and outnumbered them because of God’s help. Shortly after this it will become apparent to all nations that Christ is reigning on earth. Consider the following verses:

Zechariah 12:2,3 - Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zechariah 14:2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 12:9 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:3 - Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Ezekiel 25:14-16 - And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred; {or, perpetual hatred} therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I think the struggle is, and the prophecies are, greater than just ethnicities not seeing eye to eye.
The scripture extends the meaning of Israel as a metaphor for all of God's people and the enemy is the Devil working through those who care not for God's heart.

The battle is cosmic. It is God's character/ principles, opposing the Devil's character/ principles on a global scale.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think the struggle is, and the prophecies are, greater than just ethnicities not seeing eye to eye.
The scripture extends the meaning of Israel as a metaphor for all of God's people and the enemy is the Devil working through those who care not for God's heart.

The battle is cosmic. It is God's character/ principles, opposing the Devil's character/ principles on a global scale.

It's not about dirt....

It never was. Dirt, has never been the point.

 

[quietthinker]

It's not about dirt....

The scripture/ prophets have used this struggle between these ethnicities not to give us a blow for blow account of who kicks whose butt nationally but rather has used them as types in the battle between good and evil.

I also think that if our hopes and focus is specifically on the outcome of these nations doing battle, our focus and hopes are misplaced.

Jesus is the victor and not because of strength of muscle through violence but rather by absorbing the evil men and demons did their best to throw at him....and those who overcome, operate by the same principle.

None of this makes sense to Worldling's because they cannot see how submission equals strength.
It is the slaughtered Lamb who is in the middle of the Throne. It gobsmacked the Universe.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

You don't know what he's talking about, and I do. First order logic is the numerical process of clearing the Sieve of Eratóstenes. Check it out in "Cath-22", a book written by someone who is a Citizen of the United States, which Tony Nobody is not. There's a difference between predicate logic and a priori reasoning. A Priori reasoning is thinking for yourself about other's statements, that's what I do. I can think for myself about what God says, I don't need Martin Luther, or ChinkBink, or you to point out any "predicate clauses".

Of course, I can also use predicate logic. I'm a constitutional legal scholar, and he isn't even a citizen.

When did your ancestors come to the US?

 

[St. SteVen]

I s'pose naivety and inexperience are bedfellows of stupidity......but I must add, stupidity has a raft of bedfellows.

Stacked to the rafters. - LOL

/

 

[quietthinker]

@ Hazelelponi
I hope my reply in post # 87 hasn't 'spun' you out.

I have mentioned the slaughtered lamb in the middle of the throne a few times on the forum here and have only drawn a blank from others.
I wonder why that is? Is it because folk have no idea what I'm referencing? Is it because they assume I have tipped over the fanatical edge? Is it because they just don't know?

In any case, I thought I would touch base.
The reference by the way is from Revelation 5:6

 

[quietthinker]

Stacked to the rafters. - LOL

/

ahhhh, stacking, packing and overflowing oozes out of the collective consciousness of humanity.

 

[Lambano]

I have known individual Muslims who have invited me into their homes when I was a stranger, and who brought food when my family was sick.

‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.'

 

[Lizbeth]

I worked in Saudi Arabia for four years. From my personal experience, I think the average Muslim in Saudi Arabia has more respect for Mohammed than the average Christian in Toronto has for Jesus.

Check out the PBS series, narrated by Ben Kinsley: Islam Empire of Faith.

I know what you mean brother, I've lived in the Toronto area for many years, and here there isn't much fear of God. Many churches here have kind of turned Him into a Santa Claus and self-help guru. Often wish and pray so much that the Lord would raise up some bold and fiery preachers to proclaim the truth and get the church back on the right foundation. Yes, unbelievers often do put believers to shame.

While it's good to try and counter prejudices - hope I don't seem too nit-picky here - but I think it's important to remember that strictly speaking we aren't called to admire anyone, but to love. There's no difference between different people groups in God's eyes, we're all humans who fell short of the glory and equally in need of the Saviour.

And just to say, I'm sorry for the way that other poster has been talking to you. I'm appalled, and it's sad to see in someone who calls themself a Christian.

 

[Lizbeth]

I reside on this base, and you don't.

Prove by means of combinatoric logic, based on geography, that you are a citizen.

Draw your geometric construction on paper by hand using CAD tools, scan it, and post it in line with the forum.

What on earth are you talking about? Surely IF you are a Christian you know that the only citizenship that matters is our citizenship in heaven. We're all only strangers passing through a strange land here.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I know what you mean brother, I've lived in the Toronto area for many years, and here there isn't much fear of God. Many churches here have kind of turned Him into a Santa Claus and self-help guru.

So right. I visited a few of them. I actually did it on purpose to see what they were like.

but I think it's important to remember that strictly speaking we aren't called to admire anyone, but to love.

Point take. I'll change the wording. Thanks

And just to say, I'm sorry for the way that other poster has been talking to you.

No worries, I just put them on ignore when I think that further communication would not be helpful to them. I do 3 attempts