Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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GodsGrace

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Some forms of union radically contradict this ideal, while others realize it in at least a partial and analogous way. The Synod Fathers stated that the Church does not disregard the constructive elements in those situations which do not yet or no longer correspond to her teaching on marriage.314 Gradualness in pastoral care 293. The Fathers also considered the specific situation of a merely civil marriage or, with due distinction, even simple cohabitation, noting that “when such unions attain a particular stability, legally recognized, are characterized by deep affection and responsibility for their offspring, and demonstrate an ability to overcome trials, 313 Ibid., 28. 314 Cf. ibid., 41, 43; Relatio Finalis 2015, 70. 223 they can provide occasions for pastoral care with a view to the eventual celebration of the sacrament of marriage”.315 On the other hand, it is a source of concern that many young people today distrust marriage and live together, putting off indefinitely the commitment of marriage, while yet others break a commitment already made and immediately assume a new one. “As members of the Church, they too need pastoral care that is merciful and helpful”.316 For the Church’s pastors are not only responsible for promoting Christian marriage, but also the “pastoral discernment of the situations of a great many who no longer live this reality. Entering into pastoral dialogue with these persons is needed to distinguish elements in their lives that can lead to a greater openness to the Gospel of marriage in its fullness”.317 In this pastoral discernment, there is a need “to identify elements that can foster evangelization and human and spiritual growth”.318 294. “The choice of a civil marriage or, in many cases, of simple cohabitation, is often not motivated by prejudice or resistance to a sacramental union, but by cultural or contingent situations”.319 In such cases, respect also can be shown for those signs of love which in some way reflect 315 Ibid., 27. 316 Ibid., 26. 317 Ibid., 41. 318 Ibid. 319 Relatio Finalis 2015, 71. 224 God’s own love.320 We know that there is “a continual increase in the number of those who, after having lived together for a long period, request the celebration of marriage in Church. Simply to live together is often a choice based on a general attitude opposed to anything institutional or definitive; it can also be done while awaiting more security in life (a steady job and steady income). In some countries, de facto unions are very numerous, not only because of a rejection of values concerning the family and matrimony, but primarily because celebrating a marriage is considered too expensive in the social circumstances. As a result, material poverty drives people into de facto unions”.321 Whatever the case, “all these situations require a constructive response seeking to transform them into opportunities that can lead to the full reality of marriage and family in conformity with the Gospel. These couples need to be welcomed and guided patiently and discreetly”.322 That is how Jesus treated the Samaritan woman (cf. Jn 4:1-26): he addressed her desire for true love, in order to free her from the darkness in her life and to bring her to the full joy of the Gospel. 295. Along these lines, Saint John Paul II proposed the so-called “law of gradualness” in the knowledge that the human being “knows, loves 320 Cf. ibid. 321 Relatio Synodi 2014, 42. 322 Ibid., 43. 225 and accomplishes moral good by different stages of growth”.323 This is not a “gradualness of law” but rather a gradualness in the prudential exercise of free acts on the part of subjects who are not in a position to understand, appreciate, or fully carry out the objective demands of the law. For the law is itself a gift of God which points out the way, a gift for everyone without exception; it can be followed with the help of grace, even though each human being “advances gradually with the progressive integration of the gifts of God and the demands of God’s definitive and absolute love in his or her entire personal and social life”.324 The discernment of “irregular” situations 325 296. The Synod addressed various situations of weakness or imperfection. Here I would like to reiterate something I sought to make clear to the whole Church, lest we take the wrong path: “There are two ways of thinking which recur throughout the Church’s history: casting off and reinstating. The Church’s way, from the time of the Council of Jerusalem, has always always been the way of Jesus, the way of mercy and reinstatement…
 
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GodsGrace

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The way of the Church is not to condemn anyone for ever; it is to pour out the balm 323 Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 34: AAS 74 (1982), 123. 324 Ibid., 9: AAS 74 (1982), 90. 325 Cf. Catechesis (24 June 2015): L’Osservatore Romano, 25 June 2015, p. 8. 226 of God’s mercy on all those who ask for it with a sincere heart… For true charity is always unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous”.326 Consequently, there is a need “to avoid judgements which do not take into account the complexity of various situations” and “to be attentive, by necessity, to how people experience distress because of their condition”.327 297. It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community and thus to experience being touched by an “unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous” mercy. No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried, but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves. Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17). Such a person needs to listen once more to the Gospel message and its call to conversion. Yet even for that person there can be some way of taking part in the life of community, whether in 326 Homily at Mass Celebrated with the New Cardinals (15 February 2015): AAS 107 (2015), 257. 327 Relatio Finalis 2015, 51. 227 social service, prayer meetings or another way that his or her own initiative, together with the discernment of the parish priest, may suggest. As for the way of dealing with different “irregular” situations, the Synod Fathers reached a general consensus, which I support: “In considering a pastoral approach towards people who have contracted a civil marriage, who are divorced and remarried, or simply living together, the Church has the responsibility of helping them understand the divine pedagogy of grace in their lives and offering them assistance so they can reach the fullness of God’s plan for them”,328 something which is always possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. 298. The divorced who have entered a new union, for example, can find themselves in a variety of situations, which should not be pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for a suitable personal and pastoral discernment. One thing is a second union consolidated over time, with new children, proven fidelity, generous self giving, Christian commitment, a consciousness of its irregularity and of the great difficulty of going back without feeling in conscience that one would fall into new sins. The Church acknowledges situations “where, for serious reasons, such as the children’s upbringing, a man and woman cannot satisfy the obligation 328 Relatio Synodi 2014, 25. 228 to separate”.329 There are also the cases of those who made every effort to save their first marriage and were unjustly abandoned, or of “those who have entered into a second union for the sake of the children’s upbringing, and are sometimes subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably broken marriage had never been valid”.330 Another thing is a new union arising from a recent divorce, with all the suffering and confusion which this entails for children and entire families, or the case of someone who has consistently failed in his obligations to the family. It must remain clear that this is not the ideal which the Gospel proposes for marriage and the family. The Synod Fathers stated that the discernment of pastors must always take place “by adequately distinguishing”,331 with an approach which “carefully discerns situations”.332 We know that no “easy recipes” exist.333 329 John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 84: AAS 74 (1982), 186. In such situations, many people, knowing and accepting the possibility of living “as brothers and sisters” which the Church offers them, point out that if certain expressions of intimacy are lacking, “it often happens that faithfulness is endangered and the good of the children suffers” (Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 51). 330 Ibid. 331 Relatio Synodi 2014, 26. 332 Ibid., 45. 333 Benedict XVI, Address to the Seventh World Meeting of Families in Milan (2 June 2012), Response n. 5: Insegnamenti VIII/1 (2012), 691. 229 299. I am in agreement with the many Synod Fathers who observed that “the baptized who are divorced and civilly remarried need to be more fully integrated into Christian communities in the variety of ways possible, while avoiding any occasion of scandal. The logic of integration is the key to their pastoral care, a care which would allow them not only to realize that they belong to the Church as the body of Christ, but also to know that they can have a joyful and fruitful experience in it. They are baptized; they are brothers and sisters; the Holy Spirit pours into their hearts gifts and talents for the good of all. Their participation can be expressed in different ecclesial services, which necessarily requires discerning which of the various forms of exclusion currently practised in the liturgical, pastoral, educational and institutional framework, can be surmounted. Such persons need to feel not as excommunicated members of the Church, but instead as living members, able to live and grow in the Church and experience her as a mother who welcomes them always, who takes care of them with affection and encourages them along the path of life and the Gospel. This integration is also needed in the care and Christian upbringing of their children, who ought to be considered most important”.334 334 Relatio Finalis 2015, 84. 230 300. If we consider the immense variety of concrete situations such as those I have mentioned, it is understandable that neither the Synod nor this Exhortation could be expected to provide a new set of general rules, canonical in nature and applicable to all cases. What is possible is simply a renewed encouragement to undertake a responsible personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases, one which would recognize that, since “the degree of responsibility is not equal in all cases”,335 the consequences or effects of a rule need not necessarily always be the same.336 Priests have the duty to “accompany [the divorced and remarried] in helping them to understand their situation according to the teaching of the Church and the guidelines of the bishop. Useful in this process is an examination of conscience through moments of reflection and repentance.
 
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aspen

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Please post the Gerhard quote.
Please remember that there are those in the CC that, like @BreadOfLife of life insist on one of the following:

1. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGE IN CATHOLIC TEACHING.

2. THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE BUT IT'S ONLY DISCIPLINE AND NOT DOCTRINE.


????????
Do YOU see a conflict above?
The CC sure did and discussed it for at least two years that I can remember.

Yes...it leaves one scratching their heads....
Not only BISHOPS AND CARDINALS (which is a title) THAT AGREE THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE IN DOCTRINE,,,,but many of the laity too.

As is expressed below by those that know much more than we do, but states that this very change will be confusing to the laity:

He went on, in the same section, to say:

However, the Church reaffirms her practice, which is based upon Sacred Scripture, of not admitting to Eucharistic Communion divorced persons who have remarried. They are unable to be admitted thereto from the fact that their state and condition of life objectively contradict that union of love between Christ and the Church which is signified and effected by the Eucharist. Besides this, there is another special pastoral reason: if these people were admitted to the Eucharist, the faithful would be led into error and confusion regarding the Church's teaching about the indissolubility of marriage.

source: Pope Francis on the Divorced and Remarried: 10 Things to Know and Share

This is a complicated matter, but simple in its truths,,,,
BoL is making it too simple....if it were that simple, there would have been no outcry in the church when Amoris Laetitia was published,,,and dare I say BEFORE THAT since we all know what it would state.

This is what I am seeing, GG; you do not like BOL’s distinction between a discipline and Sacred Tradition, which cannot be changed. You believe he is just trying to explain away changes in Sacred Scripture. I do not agree with you - I see the difference. It reminds me of the Protestant objection over prayer and adoration - Catholics make the distinction, many Protestants do not.

So, I am not trying to be rude here, but why do you care? Even if Catholics are just covering their tracks, what bothers you about it? I Corinthians Chapter 8 may apply here.
 

GodsGrace

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Given that gradualness is not in the law itself (cf. Familiaris Consortio, 34), this discernment can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church. For this discernment to happen, the following conditions must necessarily be present: humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it”.338 These attitudes are essential for avoiding the grave danger of misunderstandings, such as the notion that any priest can quickly grant “exceptions”, or that some people can obtain sacramental privileges in exchange for favours. When a responsible and tactful person, who does not presume to put his or her own desires ahead of the common good of the Church, meets with a pastor capable of acknowledging the seriousness of the matter before him, there can be no risk that a specific discernment may 337 Relatio Finalis 2015, 85. 338 Ibid., 86 232 lead people to think that the Church maintains a double standard. Mitigating factors in pastoral discernment 301. For an adequate understanding of the possibility and need of special discernment in certain “irregular” situations, one thing must always be taken into account, lest anyone think that the demands of the Gospel are in any way being compromised. The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,339 or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin. As the Synod Fathers put it, “factors may exist which limit the ability to make a decision”.340 Saint Thomas Aquinas himself recognized that someone may possess grace and charity, yet not be able to exercise any one of the virtues well;341 in other words, although someone may possess all the infused moral 339 John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 33: AAS 74 (1982), 121. 340 Relatio Finalis 2015, 51. 341 Cf. Summa Theologiae I-II, q. 65, art. 3 ad 2; De Malo, q. 2, art. 2. 233 virtues, he does not clearly manifest the existence of one of them, because the outward practice of that virtue is rendered difficult: “Certain saints are said not to possess certain virtues, in so far as they experience difficulty in the acts of those virtues, even though they have the habits of all the virtues”.342 302. The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly mentions these factors: “imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors”.343 In another paragraph, the Catechism refers once again to circumstances which mitigate moral responsibility, and mentions at length “affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability”.344 For this reason, a negative judgment about an objective situation does not imply a judgment about the imputability or culpability of the person 342 Ibid., ad 3. 343 No. 1735. 344 Ibid., 2352; Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Euthanasia Iura et Bona (5 May 1980), II: AAS 72 (1980), 546; John Paul II, in his critique of the category of “fundamental option”, recognized that “doubtless there can occur situations which are very complex and obscure from a psychological viewpoint, and which have an influence on the sinner’s subjective culpability” (Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia [2 December 1984], 17: AAS 77 [1985], 223). 234 involved.345

On the basis of these convictions, I consider very fitting what many Synod Fathers wanted to affirm: “Under certain circumstances people find it very difficult to act differently. Therefore, while upholding a general rule, it is necessary to recognize that responsibility with respect to certain actions or decisions is not the same in all cases. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which 345 Cf. Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, Declaration Concerning the Admission to Holy Communion of Faithful Who are Divorced and Remarried (24 June 2000), 2. 346 Relatio Finalis 2015, 85. 235 can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized. Rules and discernment 304. It is reductive simply to consider whether or not an individual’s actions correspond to a general law or rule, because that is not enough to discern and ensure full fidelity to God in the concrete life of a human being. I earnestly ask that we always recall a teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas and learn to incorporate it in our pastoral discernment: That would not only lead to an intolerable casuistry, but would endanger the very values which must be preserved with special care.348 305. For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in “irregular” situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, “sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families”.349 Along these same lines, the International Theological Commission has noted that “natural law could not be presented as an already established set of rules that impose themselves a priori on the moral subject; rather, it is a source of objective inspiration for the deeply personal process of making decisions”.350 Because of 348 In another text, referring to the general knowledge of the rule and the particular knowledge of practical discernment, Saint Thomas states that “if only one of the two is present, it is preferable that it be the knowledge of the particular reality, which is closer to the act”: Sententia libri Ethicorum, VI, 6 (ed. Leonina, t. XLVII, 354.) 349 Address for the Conclusion of the Fourteenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops (24 October 2015): L’Osservatore Romano, 26-27 October 2015, p. 13. 350 International Theological Commission, In Search of a Universal Ethic: A New Look at Natural Law (2009), 59. 237 forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.

351 Discernment must help to find possible ways of responding to God and growing in the midst of limits. By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God. Let us remember that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order, but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties”.352 The practical pastoral care of ministers and of communities must not fail to embrace this reality. 306. In every situation, when dealing with those who have difficulties in living God’s law to the full, the invitation to pursue the via caritatis must be clearly heard. Fraternal charity is the 351 In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039). 352 Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium (24 November 2013), 44: AAS 105 (2013), 1038-1039. 238 first law of Christians (cf. Jn 15:12; Gal 5:14). Let us not forget the reassuring words of Scripture: “Maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins” (1 Pet 4:8); “Atone for your sins with righteousness, and your iniquities with mercy to the oppressed, so that your prosperity may be prolonged” (Dan 4:24[27]); “As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sins” (Sir 3:30).

source: https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/f...sortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf
 
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GodsGrace

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This is what I am seeing, GG; you do not like BOL’s distinction between a discipline and Sacred Tradition, which cannot be changed. You believe he is just trying to explain away changes in Sacred Scripture. I do not agree with you - I see the difference. It reminds me of the Protestant objection over prayer and adoration - Catholics make the distinction, many Protestants do not.

So, I am not trying to be rude here, but why do you care? Even if Catholics are just covering their tracks, what bothers you about it? I Corinthians Chapter 8 may apply here.
Are you serious?
Have you read my posts?

I was active in the catholic church when all this was happening.
I know the argument and the reasoning inside out.
it was covered ad nauseum.

BoL is MAKING INCORRECT STATEMENTS and HE challenged ME to a debate.

So here we are.

Do YOU consider giving REMARRIEDS living in MORTAL SIN the body and blood of Jesus a matter of "discipline" or a matter of dogma?

Has it become acceptable for the catholic church to give communion to persons living in mortal sin?

If so,,,,then AN IMPORTANT CHANGE has taken place.
What do YOU think all the uproar was about?
Did you happily miss the uproar?
 
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GodsGrace

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This is what I am seeing, GG; you do not like BOL’s distinction between a discipline and Sacred Tradition, which cannot be changed. You believe he is just trying to explain away changes in Sacred Scripture. I do not agree with you - I see the difference. It reminds me of the Protestant objection over prayer and adoration - Catholics make the distinction, many Protestants do not.

So, I am not trying to be rude here, but why do you care? Even if Catholics are just covering their tracks, what bothers you about it? I Corinthians Chapter 8 may apply here.
P.S. We're not discussing sacred scripture.

I believe you haven't caught what we're discussing...not many catholics did or care to.
 
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aspen

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At the centre of the new development is a document that was written and released by Pope Francis in April called Amoris Laetitia, an apostolic exhortation that examined how the church ought to deal with the changing modern family. It was written after the church convened two synods on the family to debate the issues.

In it, Francis said priests and bishops need to rely on their personal judgement about an individual’s circumstances when they determine whether strict church teachings – including about marriage and divorce – ought to apply to the individual. At the time, he said that his apostolic exhortation did not mark the end of the debate within the church, and that the issues were still up for discussion.

The Argentinean bishops did not endorse a change that would allow all divorced and remarried Catholics to receive communion. But they said that, if civilly remarried couples could not abstain from sex, as the church dictates they should , and if they were unable to receive an annulment of their previous marriages, then it would be possible to take a “journey of discernment” that could in some exceptional cases result in them being offered the sacraments.

Francis wrote: “The document is very good and completely explains the meaning of chapter VIII of Amoris Laetitia. There are no other interpretations. And I am certain that it will do much good. May the Lord reward this effort of pastoral charity.”
 

aspen

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P.S. We're not discussing sacred scripture.

I believe you haven't caught what we're discussing...not many catholics did or care to.

Sorry, I meant Sacred Tradition. So is that mistake all you saw in my post?

Oh and btw - you are one of the people who is derailing MY thread so I guess you can forgive me for making a tiny error.
 

BreadOfLife

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Given that gradualness is not in the law itself (cf. Familiaris Consortio, 34), this discernment can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church. For this discernment to happen, the following conditions must necessarily be present: humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it”.338 These attitudes are essential for avoiding the grave danger of misunderstandings, such as the notion that any priest can quickly grant “exceptions”, or that some people can obtain sacramental privileges in exchange for favours. When a responsible and tactful person, who does not presume to put his or her own desires ahead of the common good of the Church, meets with a pastor capable of acknowledging the seriousness of the matter before him, there can be no risk that a specific discernment may 337 Relatio Finalis 2015, 85. 338 Ibid., 86 232 lead people to think that the Church maintains a double standard. Mitigating factors in pastoral discernment 301. For an adequate understanding of the possibility and need of special discernment in certain “irregular” situations, one thing must always be taken into account, lest anyone think that the demands of the Gospel are in any way being compromised. The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,339 or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin. As the Synod Fathers put it, “factors may exist which limit the ability to make a decision”.340 Saint Thomas Aquinas himself recognized that someone may possess grace and charity, yet not be able to exercise any one of the virtues well;341 in other words, although someone may possess all the infused moral 339 John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 33: AAS 74 (1982), 121. 340 Relatio Finalis 2015, 51. 341 Cf. Summa Theologiae I-II, q. 65, art. 3 ad 2; De Malo, q. 2, art. 2. 233 virtues, he does not clearly manifest the existence of one of them, because the outward practice of that virtue is rendered difficult: “Certain saints are said not to possess certain virtues, in so far as they experience difficulty in the acts of those virtues, even though they have the habits of all the virtues”.342 302. The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly mentions these factors: “imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors”.343 In another paragraph, the Catechism refers once again to circumstances which mitigate moral responsibility, and mentions at length “affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability”.344 For this reason, a negative judgment about an objective situation does not imply a judgment about the imputability or culpability of the person 342 Ibid., ad 3. 343 No. 1735. 344 Ibid., 2352; Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Euthanasia Iura et Bona (5 May 1980), II: AAS 72 (1980), 546; John Paul II, in his critique of the category of “fundamental option”, recognized that “doubtless there can occur situations which are very complex and obscure from a psychological viewpoint, and which have an influence on the sinner’s subjective culpability” (Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia [2 December 1984], 17: AAS 77 [1985], 223). 234 involved.345

On the basis of these convictions, I consider very fitting what many Synod Fathers wanted to affirm: “Under certain circumstances people find it very difficult to act differently. Therefore, while upholding a general rule, it is necessary to recognize that responsibility with respect to certain actions or decisions is not the same in all cases. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which 345 Cf. Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, Declaration Concerning the Admission to Holy Communion of Faithful Who are Divorced and Remarried (24 June 2000), 2. 346 Relatio Finalis 2015, 85. 235 can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized. Rules and discernment 304. It is reductive simply to consider whether or not an individual’s actions correspond to a general law or rule, because that is not enough to discern and ensure full fidelity to God in the concrete life of a human being. I earnestly ask that we always recall a teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas and learn to incorporate it in our pastoral discernment: That would not only lead to an intolerable casuistry, but would endanger the very values which must be preserved with special care.348 305. For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in “irregular” situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, “sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families”.349 Along these same lines, the International Theological Commission has noted that “natural law could not be presented as an already established set of rules that impose themselves a priori on the moral subject; rather, it is a source of objective inspiration for the deeply personal process of making decisions”.350 Because of 348 In another text, referring to the general knowledge of the rule and the particular knowledge of practical discernment, Saint Thomas states that “if only one of the two is present, it is preferable that it be the knowledge of the particular reality, which is closer to the act”: Sententia libri Ethicorum, VI, 6 (ed. Leonina, t. XLVII, 354.) 349 Address for the Conclusion of the Fourteenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops (24 October 2015): L’Osservatore Romano, 26-27 October 2015, p. 13. 350 International Theological Commission, In Search of a Universal Ethic: A New Look at Natural Law (2009), 59. 237 forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.

351 Discernment must help to find possible ways of responding to God and growing in the midst of limits. By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God. Let us remember that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order, but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties”.352 The practical pastoral care of ministers and of communities must not fail to embrace this reality. 306. In every situation, when dealing with those who have difficulties in living God’s law to the full, the invitation to pursue the via caritatis must be clearly heard. Fraternal charity is the 351 In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039).
WRONG.

I posted documents. That CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
said that they didn’t count.

I posted quotes from the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU dismissed them by saying that he “works for the Pope”.

I posted excerpts from the book. John Paul II for Dummies, which CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
called it a “dumb book” and dismissed it.

I posted quotes from the Early Church Fathers, who CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
had NO response.

I posted Canon Law, which CALLS it a “Discipline”.
YOU
disqualified it because you’re not a canon lawyer.

You gave excuse after excuse for NOT addressing my evidence – then you claim I didn’t present any.

That is a LIE – as big as your original one. – and that’s why you’ve lost this debate.
 
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GodsGrace

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Sorry, I meant Sacred Tradition. So is that mistake all you saw in my post?

Oh and btw - you are one of the people who is derailing MY thread so I guess you can forgive me for making a tiny error.
What mistake?
I don't really know what you're speaking of.

And yes, we did derail.
I'm sorry.
 

aspen

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What mistake?
I don't really know what you're speaking of.

And yes, we did derail.
I'm sorry.

I said Sacred Scripture instead of Sacred Tradition and you corrected me. You also refused to answer my question again
 

GodsGrace

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WRONG.

I posted documents. That CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
said that they didn’t count.

I posted quotes from the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU dismissed them by saying that he “works for the Pope”.

I posted excerpts from the book. John Paul II for Dummies, which CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
called it a “dumb book” and dismissed it.

I posted quotes from the Early Church Fathers, who CALLED it a “Discipline”.
YOU
had NO response.

I posted Canon Law, which CALLS it a “Discipline”.
YOU
disqualified it because you’re not a canon lawyer.

You gave excuse after excuse for NOT addressing my evidence – then you claim I didn’t present any.

That is a LIE – as big as your original one. – and that’s why you’ve lost this debate.
[/QUOTE]
Well BoL...
I haven't lost it yet...
because giving communion to one in mortal sin is going against a DOGMA,,,not even a doctrine.

And I guess I'm going to have to educate you as to HOW.

All those "docs" you posted spoke about DISCIPLINE....
but how did they SHOW THAT what Pope Francis did is a change in DICSIPLINE??
As I've stated MANY TIMES NOW....
IF it was a change in discipline...WHY ALL THE OUTRAGE?

Here's why....because he's making a change in DOGMA.

As we shall soon see.

1. What is a dogma?

A dogma of the Catholic Church is defined as "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church declared as binding."[1] The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The Church's Magisteriumasserts that it exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging Catholics to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.[2]


The Holy Scripture is not identical with divine revelation, but a part of it.[7] Scriptures were written later by apostles and evangelists, who knew Jesus. They give inerrant testimony of his teachings.[7] "Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence."[8] Truths formally and explicitly revealed by God are certainly dogmas in the strict sense when they are proposed or defined by the Church. Such are the articles of the Apostles' Creed.[9]

The Catholic position is that the content of a dogma has a divine origin. It is considered to be an expression of an objective truth that does not change.[10] The truth of God, revealed by God, does not change, as God himself does not change; "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".[11]


source: Dogma in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

and also my post no. 139 ---- to which you never did reply.


2. How do we know the church teaching that one cannot receive communion, which is the body and blood of Christ, in mortal sin a dogma?

Basically, because this is a teaching that CANNOT CHANGE.
But let's see why...

The Catholic Church has issued a LIST of DOGMA.

We start with no. 186, 187 and 189

  1. 186The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly, really and substantially present in the Eucharist.
  2. 187Christ becomes present in the Sacrament of the Altar by the transformation of the whole substance of the bread into His Body and the whole substance of the wine into His Blood.
  3. 188The Accidents of bread and wine continue after the change of the substance.
  4. 189The Body and the Blood of Christ together with His Soul and His Divinity and therefore the Whole Christ are truly present in the Eucharist.
We learn from the above that communion is the receiving of the body and blood of Christ. He is truly present in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is sacred and the above dogma does not change and cannot change.

And more...
Nos. 192, 194, 199, 200

  1. 192When either consecrated species is divided the Whole Christ is present in each part of the species.
  2. 194The Eucharist is a true Sacrament instituted by Christ.
  3. 199The Sacrament of the Eucharist can be validly received by every baptized person in the wayfaring state, including young children.
  4. 200For the worthy reception of the Eucharist the state of grace as well as the proper and pious disposition are necessary.
The Eucharist is a true sacrament instituted by Christ.
The Eucharist can be received by every baptized person in a wayfaring state...incl children.
For the worthy reception of the Eucharist a STATE OF GRACE is necessary.

Again,,,dogma cannot change.
To receive communion one must be in a state of grace. (NOT MORTAL SIN).

What does Catholic Dogma say about marriage?
I'll only post no. 242j and 243

  1. 242Marriage is a true and proper Sacrament instituted by God.
  2. 243From the sacramental contract of marriage emerges the Bond of Marriage, which binds both marriage partners to a lifelong indivisible community of life.

So,,,marriage is instituted by God and we've learned that nothing instituted by God can be changed.
The marriage partners are bound in a life-long community of life.


The above can be found here,,,along with about 250 other dogma of the catholic church.

SEPTEMBER 19, 2015 BY JONATHAN BYRD
A List Of The Dogmas Of The Catholic Church


Did you know that there are 255 infallibly declared dogmas of the faith? Most people are not aware of the sheer number of dogmas. In the times in which we live, were truth is under attack, it is good to remind ourselves of the truth that is inherent in the Catholic Church.


A List Of The Dogmas Of The Catholic Church


Now, if you cannot determine from the above that giving communion to a person IN MORTAL SIN....is a grave change to the dogma of the Catholic church.
then I really don't know what will convince you.


As I've tried repeatedly to explain to you...

telling a person they cannot eat before receiving communion is a discipline...
telling a person they can receive communion IN A STATE OF MORTAL SIN is a CHANGE
to the DOGMA of the Catholic Church.


And the above...BoL...is why there was such an outcry in the church when Pope Francis wrote that persons remarried can receive communion.
 
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GodsGrace

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I said Sacred Scripture instead of Sacred Tradition and you corrected me. You also refused to answer my question again
I didn't correct you...
I just repeated what you said...how am I supposed to know what you MEANT to say?

As to the question...
I'll go look again...

This is what you wrote in post no. 443:
This is what I am seeing, GG; you do not like BOL’s distinction between a discipline and Sacred Tradition, which cannot be changed. You believe he is just trying to explain away changes in Sacred Scripture. I do not agree with you - I see the difference. It reminds me of the Protestant objection over prayer and adoration - Catholics make the distinction, many Protestants do not.

So, I am not trying to be rude here, but why do you care? Even if Catholics are just covering their tracks, what bothers you about it? I Corinthians Chapter 8 may apply here.


I told you why I care. This is an extremely important "progression" in church dogma.
The CC CANNOT change church dogma.
If it can...then any pope can change anything he wants to.
This is a rather serious precedent.

I don't know what you mean by "catholics covering their tracks".
And I certainly have no idea what 1 Corinthians 8 has to do with a pope changing dogma.

You yourself stated in your post above that sacred tradition cannot be changed...
so then why is it?
And aren't YOU concerned?
 
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epostle

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I didn't correct you...
I just repeated what you said...how am I supposed to know what you MEANT to say?

As to the question...
I'll go look again...

This is what you wrote in post no. 443:
This is what I am seeing, GG; you do not like BOL’s distinction between a discipline and Sacred Tradition, which cannot be changed. You believe he is just trying to explain away changes in Sacred Scripture. I do not agree with you - I see the difference. It reminds me of the Protestant objection over prayer and adoration - Catholics make the distinction, many Protestants do not.

So, I am not trying to be rude here, but why do you care? Even if Catholics are just covering their tracks, what bothers you about it? I Corinthians Chapter 8 may apply here.


I told you why I care. This is an extremely important "progression" in church dogma.
The CC CANNOT change church dogma.
If it can...then any pope can change anything he wants to.
This is a rather serious precedent.

I don't know what you mean by "catholics covering their tracks".
And I certainly have no idea what 1 Corinthians 8 has to do with a pope changing dogma.

You yourself stated in your post above that sacred tradition cannot be changed...
so then why is it?
And aren't YOU concerned?
What is being received is dogmatic, the rules for receiving, in certain cases, are disciplinary. The Pope doesn't want to starve our wounded.
 

Philip James

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What is being received is dogmatic, the rules for receiving, in certain cases, are disciplinary. The Pope doesn't want to starve our wounded.

The issue is not a change in doctrine, in fact the document clearly affirms that divorce and remarrige is contrary to the Faith, but vague language that leaves open the door to all kinds of abuses..

Bishops are right to call for clarification in my opinion...

Peace!
 
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Taken

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page 3 of 4
No one can be condemned forever...

So what is the POINT of preaching the urgency of a man to RECEIVE Gods Gift of FAITH....?

Shall God raise up his DEAD UNBELIEVING BODY IN GLORY? and 'MAKE" that DEAD BODY BELIEVE?


Glory to God
Taken
 
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B

brakelite

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He often seems to act on impulse without thinking things through. He doesn't seem to have the kind of guile to have an ulterior motiv
While I agree that for him to apologise seems out of character, I tend to disagree with the above. If a Jesuit didn't have guile, he is taught it. Their whole Modus operandi is based on guile and deception. Nothing is a as it appears.
 

GodsGrace

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So what is the POINT of preaching the urgency of a man to RECEIVE Gods Gift of FAITH....?

Shall God raise up his DEAD UNBELIEVING BODY IN GLORY? and 'MAKE" that DEAD BODY BELIEVE?


Glory to God
Taken
Agreed.

There is no urgency in the catholic church.

They teach that persons are to follow Jesus....
but with no urgency.

They teach what He taught...
but with no urgency.

They also teach that persons are to follow CHURCH rules....
but with no urgency.

They're so close and yet still far.
I'm sorry I had to leave...there are some very good things about that church.
 

GodsGrace

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What is being received is dogmatic, the rules for receiving, in certain cases, are disciplinary. The Pope doesn't want to starve our wounded.
Epostle....

I've been trying to remember to post a disclaimer.
I UNDERSTAND, believe me, the reasons WHY the Pope is doing this.

And, yes, the rules for receiving (most of them) are disciplinary.

BUT the matter of receiving with the Pope, Bishop's, Priest's blessing while IN MORTAL SIN is NOT a discipline..It is a dogma if we examine this carefully - but it's at least a doctrine.

it is going against what the church has taught from the beginning --- even Paul said not to receive unworthily and, as you must surely know, confession was developed for those that committed sins and could not receive since communion is very important in the CC and one must be in "communion" with the church to be saved.

The Pope literally tore the church in half with this idea of his.
It's interesting that Cardinal Krauss tried to soften the blow by making a pre-announcement, which also did not go over well...not many, at the time, thought the Pope would actually go through with this --- which he did. I had some foresense and knew this was coming...some of my Catholic friends that are still involved with the church still have trouble with this.

It's a complicated subject matter but I'm well prepared.
I was very active in the church when all this was happening....

I happen to agree with you, TTYTT.
I also believe the current solution is not attainable to a normal couple.
I hope you know what it is, I hate even talking about it.

The problem is a 50% divorce rate even within Christianity.
The CC is being forced to solve this problem in some way.
I'm just happy I don't have to make this decision.
 

bbyrd009

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Wow. Very good, I just went through it quick.

Here's why I think it's important.
There was a guy on another forum that would go on for PAGES about ONE WORD.
There's someone here that is about the same..actually more than one person...

The point is that we can't hang on every word in the N.T.
This is why I keep saying that it's an entire thought and I don't even like pulling out verses,,,
but it's all we've got....

I also think it's wonderful to know history and to know that history confirms scripture and does not take away from it...except maybe for those that make the BIBLE THEIR GOD...they must find this
intimidating.
hmm, i dunno, looks like its pretty hard to place any ppl in 1stC Nazareth. Although i guess One Anarchist would not leave much telltale anyway?