Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[BreadOfLife]

You are the one missing the point. You think your beliefs dominated 4th century Christianity and your are wrong. And I never said Baptism was not important. And if you have a dozen scriptures that support your interpretation but over a hundred that supports another interpretation you might consider the truth...Advise.....don't go to the psychiatrist and say, "Doc I do not understand, everyone has went crazy but me."
You might find yourself in a white jacket. Oh and on the harmonize thing, please get into that topic.

Again – you’re using the same logic as the Non-Trinitarians.

NOT every verse of Scripture says the exact same thing about the exact same subjects. And just because there are more verses that talk about the necessity of faith does NOT diminish the fact that there are several verses that make the case for the necessity of Baptism. They go hand-in-hand.

A person without faith is not going to be Baptized.

Your position seems to be based on the false, man-made 16th century invention of Sola Fide.

Funny how a person like YOU requires Scriptural evidence for a doctrine – yet NOWHERE do the Scriptures support this false Protestant invention . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh for goodness sake.

DID I SAY DIVORCE MAKE ONE INELLIGIBLE FOR COMMUNION?
NO!

HOWEVER, THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN IT DOES...
FOR INSTANCE IF THE PERSON DIVORCED IN ENGAGING IN FORNICATION.

must I spell it out for you?

AND, BTW, being remarried, according to the CC, IS FORNICATION.

Yes.
You made this claim back in post #1337.

I told you that I would expose you every you lie . . .

 

[Giuliano]

So there are some priests who are alcoholics – and YOU think its because they’re consuming too much consecrated altar wine during mass??

Some must be if they're getting drunk.

What an asinine observation. Apparently, you’ve never attended a mass. The priest literally takes a sip from the chalice.

In some places, they also drink everything that's left over. I've read too that in other places, they take it along with them for the next Mass they're celebrating.

Soooo, by your moronic logic – if there are overweight priests out there – it’s because they are eating WAY too many consecrated hosts. What kind of nonsense are you peddling?

This is one of the most idiotic anti-Catholic attacks I’ve ever heard – and I’ve heard some pretty stupid ones . . .

Thanks for the compliment.

You don't get fat in one morning; but you can get drunk in one morning.

Of course, some clerics get drunk off the job, like Bishop McManus.

Worcester Bishop McManus charged with drunken driving

Worcester Bishop Robert J. McManus was arrested Saturday night in Narragansett, R.I., charged with drunken driving and refusing a chemical test, Narragansett police confirmed this morning. “There is no excuse for the mistake I made, only a commitment to make amends and accept the consequences of my action,” the bishop said.

Worcester Bishop Robert J. McManus was arrested Saturday night in Narragansett, R.I., and charged with drunken driving and refusing a chemical test.

The bishop was in a hit-and-run accident on Boston Neck Road, according to Narragansett Police Capt. Sean Corrigan.
. . . .
Another prominent Catholic leader who was arrested recently on a drunken driving charge did not see his career negatively affected by the incident.

San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Joseph Cordileone was arrested in August 2012 at a police checkpoint in San Diego; at the time he was the archbishop-elect.

He went on to plead guilty to a lesser charge of reckless driving and was officially made bishop in October 2012.

What happened to Paul's advice? Outdated?

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

 

[Giuliano]

The Thief on the Cross was an exception.

God can and DOES make exceptions.

Not everybody has the opportunity to be baptized. Like the Thief, they are blessed with the Baptism of Desire.

So there are exceptions. I thought so. Very good.

 

[Grailhunter]

Again – you’re using the same logic as the Non-Trinitarians.

NOT every verse of Scripture says the exact same thing about the exact same subjects. And just because there are more verses that talk about the necessity of faith does NOT diminish the fact that there are several verses that make the case for the necessity of Baptism. They go hand-in-hand.

A person without faith is not going to be Baptized.

Your position seems to be based on the false, man-made 16th century invention of Sola Fide.

Funny how a person like YOU requires Scriptural evidence for a doctrine – yet NOWHERE do the Scriptures support this false Protestant invention . . .

Do you actually read the posts? I understand what Catholics believe about Baptism. But I believe I can reference scriptures by statement and event that can prove you wrong. But still the topic is not what Catholics have come to believe, I was referencing beliefs in Constantine's era. Things have changed a little since the battle at the Milvian bridge. I believe in the spiritual effects and actions in Baptism, communion, and the sacraments, but not as the instant in time of being saved, now or then. One of the reasons that I do not subscribe to any one denomination is that it limits understanding, almost to the point of being a cult like scenario where a person's mind is so bound up, that no scripture or reason can be taken into consideration. How many denominations have saved souls? How many believe that only their denomination can save. The hard line and closed mindedness is one of the reasons that the Church has fractured. I can stand with the Catholics and point out their errors and turn around and defend the Catholics. I can stand with the Pentecosts and point out their errors and turn around and defend the Pentecosts. I can do the same for a dozen other denominations. I am a Christian first, the belief in Christ is first and foremost, the rest is icing on the cake, but the cake saves. lol

 

[Grailhunter]

Again – you’re using the same logic as the Non-Trinitarians.

NOT every verse of Scripture says the exact same thing about the exact same subjects. And just because there are more verses that talk about the necessity of faith does NOT diminish the fact that there are several verses that make the case for the necessity of Baptism. They go hand-in-hand.

A person without faith is not going to be Baptized.

Your position seems to be based on the false, man-made 16th century invention of Sola Fide.

Funny how a person like YOU requires Scriptural evidence for a doctrine – yet NOWHERE do the Scriptures support this false Protestant invention . . .

And another thing, I do not debate the substance of God or the construct of the Trinity because I know we cannot comprehend the details. The same goes for baptism, do we really understand all that happens there? I believe angels are present, but even if they tried to explain, could we understand. Belief and faith has been the topic of much research, I do not believe we understand the power of faith. Christ said we could move mountains with it. Giuliano had already told you about the thieves that were with Christ. Do not pass go, but go directly to paradise. You blow that off without considering the power of faith. That was not a unique event, that is the tip of the iceberg. Christ would note the belief of one and it would apply to his household or the sick or the dead, and they would rise! Then further on in the scriptures it is noted that the belief of the wife would sanctify the unbelieving husband and the children. Do I or you, or anyone else truly understand the power of belief. God's power cannot be bound by any denominational belief and truly denominational beliefs limits what we could understand if our minds were open to God. The Lamb of God, became the shepherd of His flock and we are His the moment we believe in Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Some must be if they're getting drunk.

In some places, they also drink everything that's left over. I've read too that in other places, they take it along with them for the next Mass they're celebrating.

Thanks for the compliment.

You don't get fat in one morning; but you can get drunk in one morning.

Of course, some clerics get drunk off the job, like Bishop McManus.

Worcester Bishop McManus charged with drunken driving

Worcester Bishop Robert J. McManus was arrested Saturday night in Narragansett, R.I., charged with drunken driving and refusing a chemical test, Narragansett police confirmed this morning. “There is no excuse for the mistake I made, only a commitment to make amends and accept the consequences of my action,” the bishop said.

Worcester Bishop Robert J. McManus was arrested Saturday night in Narragansett, R.I., and charged with drunken driving and refusing a chemical test.

The bishop was in a hit-and-run accident on Boston Neck Road, according to Narragansett Police Capt. Sean Corrigan.
. . . .
Another prominent Catholic leader who was arrested recently on a drunken driving charge did not see his career negatively affected by the incident.

San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Joseph Cordileone was arrested in August 2012 at a police checkpoint in San Diego; at the time he was the archbishop-elect.

He went on to plead guilty to a lesser charge of reckless driving and was officially made bishop in October 2012.

What happened to Paul's advice? Outdated?

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Once again – your moronic attempts to twist the Scriptures and paint Catholic priests in a bad light fails on several levels.

First of all – NONE of the cases you listed had anything to do with the priest sipping from the Chalice during Mass. The average amount of wine poured into a chalice that is to be consecrated and consumed by a priest is about ½ oz - 1 oz. HARDLY enough to catch a buzz on . . .

Finally – would you like me to list the police ledgers of the Protestant ministers who’ve been arrested for substance abuse?? How about Ted Haggard, the former President of the National Association of Evangelicals who was busted for doing Meth and consorting with male hookers?

Making (Some) Sense of the Ted Haggard Scandal

How about R.C. Sproul, Jr. – who had to resign from Ligonier Ministries after being arrested for drunk driving?

R.C. Sproul Jr. Resigned From Ligonier Ministries After Felonious DUI Arrest With Minor in Vehicle

I can go ono all day long – but all I would be doing is pointing out the mistakes of individuals - which would be a disservice to most faithful Protestants.

All YOU are doing is trying to paint ALL priests with the same idiotic broad brush because that’s as far as your limited mind takes you . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

Once again – your moronic attempts to twist the Scriptures and paint Catholic priests in a bad light fails on several levels.

First of all – NONE of the cases you listed had anything to do with the priest sipping from the Chalice during Mass. The average amount of wine poured into a chalice that is to be consecrated and consumed by a priest is about ½ oz - 1 oz. HARDLY enough to catch a buzz on . . .

Finally – would you like me to list the police ledgers of the Protestant ministers who’ve been arrested for substance abuse?? How about Ted Haggard, the former President of the National Association of Evangelicals who was busted for doing Meth and consorting with male hookers?

Making (Some) Sense of the Ted Haggard Scandal

How about R.C. Sproul, Jr. – who had to resign from Ligonier Ministries after being arrested for drunk driving?

R.C. Sproul Jr. Resigned From Ligonier Ministries After Felonious DUI Arrest With Minor in Vehicle

I can go ono all day long – but all I would be doing is pointing out the mistakes of individuals - which would be a disservice to most faithful Protestants.

All YOU are doing is trying to paint ALL priests with the same idiotic broad brush because that’s as far as your limited mind takes you . . .

Step back a little bit and ask yourself, why would someone of intelligence, be pointing this out to you? Do you think he hates Catholics? You tell me, why is he doing this?

 

[Giuliano]

Once again – your moronic attempts to twist the Scriptures and paint Catholic priests in a bad light fails on several levels.

First of all – NONE of the cases you listed had anything to do with the priest sipping from the Chalice during Mass. The average amount of wine poured into a chalice that is to be consecrated and consumed by a priest is about ½ oz - 1 oz. HARDLY enough to catch a buzz on . . .

Finally – would you like me to list the police ledgers of the Protestant ministers who’ve been arrested for substance abuse?? How about Ted Haggard, the former President of the National Association of Evangelicals who was busted for doing Meth and consorting with male hookers?

Making (Some) Sense of the Ted Haggard Scandal

How about R.C. Sproul, Jr. – who had to resign from Ligonier Ministries after being arrested for drunk driving?

R.C. Sproul Jr. Resigned From Ligonier Ministries After Felonious DUI Arrest With Minor in Vehicle

I can go ono all day long – but all I would be doing is pointing out the mistakes of individuals - which would be a disservice to most faithful Protestants.

All YOU are doing is trying to paint ALL priests with the same idiotic broad brush because that’s as far as your limited mind takes you . . .

Start a thread on Protestants if you want. My question was about the Pope. I still want to know if priests drinking wine on the job was a sin in the Old Testament but not a sin in the New Testament. If you could answer it, maybe we could move on.

It goes back to the original question from several posts back:

No, I'm just giving typical Catholic doctrine to you. If the Pope says ex cathedra something isn't a sin, then it wouldn't be a sin. Who are you or I to question him or the Holy Spirit?

After all, many rules about what was sin and what wasn't in the Old Testament were changed, weren't they? Your priests drink wine in church and sometimes even more outside the church? How about this?

Leviticus 10:8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And another thing, I do not debate the substance of God or the construct of the Trinity because I know we cannot comprehend the details. The same goes for baptism, do we really understand all that happens there? I believe angels are present, but even if they tried to explain, could we understand. Belief and faith has been the topic of much research, I do not believe we understand the power of faith. Christ said we could move mountains with it. Giuliano had already told you about the thieves that were with Christ. Do not pass go, but go directly to paradise. You blow that off without considering the power of faith. That was not a unique event, that is the tip of the iceberg. Christ would note the belief of one and it would apply to his household or the sick or the dead, and they would rise! Then further on in the scriptures it is noted that the belief of the wife would sanctify the unbelieving husband and the children. Do I or you, or anyone else truly understand the power of belief. God's power cannot be bound by any denominational belief and truly denominational beliefs limits what we could understand if our minds were open to God. The Lamb of God, became the shepherd of His flock and we are His the moment we believe in Him.

Actually - we’re not.

Not until we’re ready to make a commitment.

Belief is NOT enough. We learn this much from James when he writes:
James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

He goes on to explain how DEAD faith is that doesn't have our cooperation. Why is is that Scripture tells us that Love - NOT faith is the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13)??

Love is an ACTION. It's something we DO - not just something we "feel".

Believing in Christ and belonging to Christ are sometimes two different things. If believing is something that even the DEMONS do – how special is that by itself??

Not very . . .

 

[CovenantPromise]

Ever wonder about the thief on the cross?

Did you hear about the blood and WATER which gushed out from Christ's side and it began to rain? God's words come back to Him fruitful. If He says water baptism is necessary He means it. Christ took care of the thief on the cross in this scene recorded in the scriptures. The graves too gave up their dead and many saints came to life . Christ's death and the tempest which followed baptized all who are God's.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Step back a little bit and ask yourself, why would someone of intelligence, be pointing this out to you? Do you think he hates Catholics? You tell me, why is he doing this?

Actually, this has already crossed my mind – and I have come up with 3 scenarios . . .

a) He is just another anti-Catholic, hurling as much garbage as he can-hoping that something will stick
b) He’s just trying to get a rise out of me.
c) He’s really, REALLY stupid.

After conversing with him for several weeks – I tend to believe it’s a combination of all 3 . . .

 

[Giuliano]

Did you hear about the blood and WATER which gushed out from Christ's side and it began to rain?

I read about the blood and water, but the rain is news to me.

God's words come back to Him fruitful. If He says water baptism is necessary He means it. Christ took care of the thief on the cross in this scene recorded in the scriptures. The graves too gave up their dead and many saints came to life . Christ's death and the tempest which followed baptized all who are God's.

Again I find you hard to follow. How could Jesus baptize the thief when they were both nailed down? I think Bread of Life was right. I never heard of it raining.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Actually - we’re not.

Not until we’re ready to make a commitment.

Belief is NOT enough. We learn this much from James when he writes:
James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

He goes on to explain how DEAD faith is that doesn't have our cooperation. Why is is that Scripture tells us that Love - NOT faith is the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13)??

Love is an ACTION. It's something we DO - not just something we "feel".

Believing in Christ and belonging to Christ are sometimes two different things. If believing is something that even the DEMONS do – how special is that by itself??

Not very . . .

BOL, I am surprised you have not had a stroke. You need to calm down and take a breath. All this name calling must be exhausting for you. Love is the greatest virtue remember.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
Love
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, but have not love, I gain nothing.…

2 Timothy 4:1-3
Preach the Word
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.…

God Bless!

 

[CovenantPromise]

I read about the blood and water, but the rain is news to me.

Again I find you hard to follow. How could Jesus baptize the thief when they were both nailed down? I think Bread of Life was right. I never heard of it raining.

You think BOL is right , you never heard of it raining??? He's right according to you who has been squabbling with him on major obvious points, but he's right on one you know nothing about? Well it is reverse day it seems.

WATER BAPTISM:
There is much debate and discussion concerning the proper application of baptism. Primarily the PROTESTANTS have a problem with all forms outside of immersion. I find that funny, reason being these same protestants will also say , water baptism is not a necessary part of salvation. To them it is simply a work of the flesh. They have much of the same argument toward the Eucharist, Anyway, that is rubbish! The works of the flesh are just that, works done before you believe in Jesus Christ-our Grace, Mercy and salvation. The bible addresses two types of works ;( Faith and Works), and (works outside of the faith) which non believers perform, they can not save a man no matter how good they appear. Any work done outside of Christ in whom God the Father has given for us to know Him, is outside of the grace in salvation.

Sprinkling Water
Numbers 19:13

'Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him.

Any other religion today is considered a corpse , and the sprinkling of water (IN FAITH) will cleanse of that impurity.

Hebrews 9:19

For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,

For today the faithful do not use the blood of animals but those saved in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB sprinkle the purifying waters of FAITH upon the people in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

It is funny how protestants will say concessions are made if there is no water. But water available for sprinkling none is made. They gag at gnats and swallow camels.

Hebrews 10:22

let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Numbers 19:18

'A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying naturally or the grave.

The clean person is the one ANOINTED by the Christ in the order of Melchizedek and they may baptize through sprinkling, pouring and immersion. All three are acceptable applications . NO (application), is the only thing rejected. All God's words come back to Him fruitful. Even if there is no water God will provide for He is no hypocrite and what He says he upholds.

Isaiah 55:10-12

…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

Two arguments for water baptism not being a necessary part of salvation by protestants: the thief on the cross and that some received the Holy Spirit before water baptism. First: since it is clear that God is no hypocrite and His word comes back to Him prosperous , God provided the water for the thief on the cross. When Christ's side was pierced both blood and water spewed forth and a tempest rose and great rain storm and earth quake which the graves gave up the dead! ALL men were baptized BY GOD in this rain at Christ's completed work on the cross. Those who died before Christ's coming and the thief on the cross received this anointing cleansing water. GOD'S WORD IS BOND and is TRUST WORTHY AND TRUE!
The oldest biblical reference to the crucifixion darkness is found in the Gospel of Mark, written around the year 70. In its account of the crucifixion, on the eve of Passover, it says that after Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning; darkness fell over all the land, or all the world (Greek: γῆν, translit. gēn can mean either) from around noon ("the sixth hour") until 3 o'clock ("the ninth hour").It adds, immediately after the death of Jesus, that "the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom".

The Gospel of Matthew has an almost identical wording: "From noon on, darkness came over the whole land [or, earth] until three in the afternoon." The author includes dramatic details, including an earthquake and the raising of the dead, which were also common motifs in Jewish apocalyptic literature: "The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised."


Further verses which support sprinkling,
Ezekiel 36:25

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

Numbers 8:7

"Thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body and wash their clothes, and they will be clean. I know protestants would hope Catholics throughout the centuries would not have a legit baptism but they do. Legit doctrine is a must and must not be based on hatred toward a brother, and a denial of their actions in faith.

As for those who received the Holy Spirit anointing of fire in the form of tongues before water baptism, that happened as a proof from God to convince Peter and the Jews that the gentile too was worthy to be part of the house of Israel . After Peter said "can anyone refuse the water to baptize these people". God had to give the Jews a little push because Peter was a Jew for the Jews and wanted to reject the gentile's admission as did the other Jews with Peter , but God said not so! "They who were not my people shall be My people , and in the very place where it is said they are NOT a people, they shall be called the Son's of God! " They who are not , will be- and God shall call them His Beloved.

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48

…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

POINT: water baptism is necessary, and God expects obedience to this. And it is more than taking a bath, if it weren't then all bath taking would be sanctifying. It is prompted by the Holy Spirit and in the Holy Spirit and is righteous obedience to God the Father, making us friends of God.

POURING WATER: Isaiah 44:3

'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;

We are the thirsty land and ground which needs blessing.
1 Corinthians 3:9

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Genesis 35:14

Jacob set up a pillar in the place where He had spoken with him, a pillar of stone, and he poured out a drink offering on it; he also poured oil on it.
1 Corinthians 6:19

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Ephesians 2:22

And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.



In Christ ,and God in us, we are the the temple of God and the cleansing water is upon us. Upon us is poured the drink offering and anointing oil.
You are God's Temple 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.…

Joel 2:28

"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

His Spirit is in both water and fire, That is why John came baptizing in the holy Spirit. The deeper refinement come with fire and that engraves God's name upon the head/mind.

Isaiah 12:3
3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.

To draw water is to use a container and then you would pour it out.

Then there is IMMERSION obviously an acceptable means of baptism , if a tub or lake , or river be available do it.

POINT : ALL MEANS ARE ACCEPTABLE AND THIEF ON THE CROSS WAS BAPTIZED.

God Bless!
Yours truly,
DNM.

 

[Giuliano]

You think BOL is right , you never heard of it raining. He's right according to you who has been squabbling with him on major obvious points, but he's right on one you know nothing about? Well it is reverse day it seems.

WATER BAPTISM:
There is much debate and discussion concerning the proper application of baptism. Primarily the PROTESTANTS have a problem with all forms outside of immersion. I find that funny, reason being these same protestants will also say , water baptism is not a necessary part of salvation. To them it is simply a work of the flesh. They have much of the same argument toward the Eucharist, Anyway, that is rubbish! The works of the flesh are just that, works done before you believe in Jesus Christ-our Grace, Mercy and salvation. The bible addresses two types of works ;( Faith and Works), and (works outside of the faith) which non believers perform, they can not save a man no matter how good they appear. Any work done outside of Christ in whom God the Father has given for us to know Him, is outside of the grace in salvation.

Sprinkling Water
Numbers 19:13

'Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him.

Any other religion today is considered a corpse , and the sprinkling of water (IN FAITH) will cleanse of that impurity.

Hebrews 9:19

For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,

For today the faithful do not use the blood of animals but those saved in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB sprinkle the purifying waters of FAITH upon the people in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

It is funny how protestants will say concessions are made if there is no water. But water available for sprinkling none is made. They gag at gnats and swallow camels.

Hebrews 10:22

let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Numbers 19:18

'A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying naturally or the grave.

The clean person is the one ANOINTED by the Christ in the order of Melchizedek and they may baptize through sprinkling, pouring and immersion. All three are acceptable applications . NO (application), is the only thing rejected. All God's words come back to Him fruitful. Even if there is no water God will provide for He is no hypocrite and what He says he upholds.

Isaiah 55:10-12

…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

Two arguments for water baptism not being a necessary part of salvation by protestants: the thief on the cross and that some received the Holy Spirit before water baptism. First: since it is clear that God is no hypocrite and His word comes back to Him prosperous , God provided the water for the thief on the cross. When Christ's side was pierced both blood and water spewed forth and a tempest rose and great rain storm and earth quake which the graves gave up the dead! ALL men were baptized BY GOD in this rain at Christ completed work on the cross. Those who died before Christ's coming and the thief on the cross received this anointing cleansing water. GOD WORD IS BOND and is TRUST WORTHY AND TRUE!
The oldest biblical reference to the crucifixion darkness is found in the Gospel of Mark, written around the year 70. In its account of the crucifixion, on the eve of Passover, it says that after Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning; darkness fell over all the land, or all the world (Greek: γῆν, translit. gēn can mean either) from around noon ("the sixth hour") until 3 o'clock ("the ninth hour").It adds, immediately after the death of Jesus, that "the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom".

The Gospel of Matthew has an almost identical wording: "From noon on, darkness came over the whole land [or, earth] until three in the afternoon." The author includes dramatic details, including an earthquake and the raising of the dead, which were also common motifs in Jewish apocalyptic literature: "The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised."


Further verses which support sprinkling,
Ezekiel 36:25

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

Numbers 8:7

"Thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body and wash their clothes, and they will be clean. I know protestants would hope Catholics throughout the centuries would not have a legit baptism but they do. Legit doctrine is a must and must not be based on hatred toward a brother, and a denial of their actions in faith.

As for those who received the Holy Spirit anointing of fire in the form of tongues before water baptism, that happened as a proof from God to convince Peter and the Jews that the gentile too was worthy to be part of the house of Israel . After Peter said "can anyone refuse the water to baptize these people". God had to give the Jews a little push because Peter was a Jew for the Jews and wanted to reject the gentile's admission as did the other Jews with Peter , but God said not so! "They who were not my people shall be My people , and in the very place where it is said they are NOT a people, they shall be called the Son's of God! " They who are not , will be- and God shall call them His Beloved.

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48

…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

POINT: water baptism is necessary, and God expect obedience to this. And it is more than taking a bath, if it weren't then all bath taking would be sanctifying. It is prompted by the Holy Spirit and in the Holy Spirit and is righteous obedience to God the Father, making us friends of God.

POURING WATER: Isaiah 44:3

'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;

We are the thirsty land and ground which needs blessing.
1 Corinthians 3:9

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Genesis 35:14

Jacob set up a pillar in the place where He had spoken with him, a pillar of stone, and he poured out a drink offering on it; he also poured oil on it.
1 Corinthians 6:19

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Ephesians 2:22

And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.



In Christ ,and God in us, we are the the temple of God and the cleansing water is upon us. Upon us is poured the drink offering and anointing oil.
You are God's Temple 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.…

Joel 2:28

"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

His Spirit is in both water and fire, That is why John came baptizing in the holy Spirit. The deeper refinement come with fire and that engraves God's name upon the head/mind.

Isaiah 12:3
3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.

To draw water is to use a container and then you would pour it out.

Then there is IMMERSION obviously an acceptable means of baptism , if a tub or lake , or river be available do it.

POINT : ALL MEANS ARE ACCEPTABLE AND THIEF ON THE CROSS WAS BAPTIZED.

Where in all that does it say it rained at the crucifixion? I may disagree with Bread of Life on other things; but I see no reason to disagree with him about this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Start a thread on Protestants if you want. My question was about the Pope. I still want to know if priests drinking wine on the job was a sin in the Old Testament but not a sin in the New Testament. If you could answer it, maybe we could move on.

It goes back to the original question from several posts back:

No, I'm just giving typical Catholic doctrine to you. If the Pope says ex cathedra something isn't a sin, then it wouldn't be a sin. Who are you or I to question him or the Holy Spirit?

After all, many rules about what was sin and what wasn't in the Old Testament were changed, weren't they? Your priests drink wine in church and sometimes even more outside the church? How about this?

Leviticus 10:8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

WHO told you that Catholic priests were under the same Mosaic Laws as the Levitical Priests??
Have you NOT read what Christ said??

Matt. 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them.

Paul also wrote:
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

As for giving me “typical Catholic doctrine – you’ve done nothing of the sort. You wouldn’t recognize a Catholic doctrine if it bit your on the backside. Your ignorance is only outdone by your arrogance. You brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight and were shot down pages ago . . .

Don’t just QUOTE the Bible.
LEARN what it means . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually - we’re not.

Not until we’re ready to make a commitment.

Belief is NOT enough. We learn this much from James when he writes:
James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

He goes on to explain how DEAD faith is that doesn't have our cooperation. Why is is that Scripture tells us that Love - NOT faith is the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13)??

Love is an ACTION. It's something we DO - not just something we "feel".

Believing in Christ and belonging to Christ are sometimes two different things. If believing is something that even the DEMONS do – how special is that by itself??

Not very . . .

And there is were you and the Church get into trouble, no form of reason or scriptural truth will get through that mind of man-made beliefs. That is why I call it cultic, not that the Catholic Church is a cult, but it can possess the mind. Whether you are a man or a Church that proclaims themselves perfect or infallible, it produces an alternate reality that defies all that is real. The issues of the Church can never be corrected as long as everyone has their head in the sand, cannot be corrected if corrections are not permitted, cannot be corrected if correction is an admission that the doctrines are in error. A vicious circle of denial of the truth. It would be no surprise that if anyone proclaims themselves perfect that some will point out that, that is not possible in this world. Christians understand that no one is perfect, no one, no denomination, but when you say perfect, that is going to draw fire. Priests are not perfect and preachers are not perfect, but a church will kick a preacher out. I know, I have been there. The Catholic Church is better than it has ever been, but it has a lot of room for improvement. To some degree because of this concept of perfection, some hold them to higher standard, and to some degree that is a compliant. The Catholic Church is the single largest religion in the world, not just denomination. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest that the Catholic Church continues to improve. I will dare say that it would be the desire of God, that the Catholic Church continues to improve.

 

[Giuliano]

WHO told you that Catholic priests were under the same Mosaic Laws as the Levitical Priests??
Have you NOT read what Christ said??

Matt. 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them.

Paul also wrote:
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

As for giving me “typical Catholic doctrine – you’ve done nothing of the sort. You wouldn’t recognize a Catholic doctrine if it bit your on the backside. Your ignorance is only outdone by your arrogance. You brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight and were shot down pages ago . . .

Don’t just QUOTE the Bible.
LEARN what it means . . .

So some things that used to sins aren't sins anymore? Is that what you're saying? Earlier you wrote, "As I stated before - the Pope has never declared a sin, no longer a sin - and definitely NOT ex cathedra." I then asked, "Tell us all then why a Pope couldn't make any statement he wanted ex cathedra and make it binding?" You answered, "Because he is guided by the HOLY SPIRIT to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15). And the Holy Spirit doesn't screw up . . ."

Later you wrote,"Then, if YOU believe that the Holy Spirit is a hypocrite - or that He contradicts Himself - then YOU'VE invented a different god for yourself than the God of Scripture." Now you are saying the Holy Spirit did contradict Himself. First God inspired Moses to forbid priests drinking wine on the job; now you're saying God changed His Mind, and it's okay.

So if that could change from being a sin into not being a sin, why couldn't the Pope decree something is no longer a sin?

 

[Giuliano]

Decrees of the First Vatican Council - Papal Encyclicals

• we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
  • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
    • that is, when,
    • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
    • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
    • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
  • he possesses,
    • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
  • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
  • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.