Is this good for Christianity?

[Renniks]

I'm effectively surrounded by Christians and Christianity. Just about all my family and friends are Christians, so almost every social situation (outside of work) includes elements of Christianity, such as prayers, references to the Bible, and relevant to this topic, attempts to persuade me to go to church and convert. The problem for me is how in our society, attempts to convert people like me to Christianity are perceived as well-intended, good natured, and for my benefit. Conversely, if I were to debate the subject seriously or, god forbid (HAH), attempt to persuade them to adopt my point of view it would be perceived as rude. IOW, it's not a level playing field. They're free to badger me as much as they like, but I'm not free to do the same. So I usually end up politely listening to their appeals and saying something like "That's interesting" and "I'll think about it".

So I think maybe coming here is a cathartic exercise of sorts, where I get to have discussions and debates with Christian friends and family that I can't have in real life.

Oh, I always enjoyed a good debate with my agnostic friend at work. We freely insulted each other and were better friends for it, but I know what you mean.

 

[Justadude]

What does a car have to do with the belief in the origin of life? Its a silly argument, makes zero sense, not related in the slightest. God doesn't give a kangaroo feces about the former. "Anti-intellectualism".....

He didn't say anything about the origin of life. He just said evolution isn't in the Bible so it has no place among Christians, a line of reasoning that I applied elsewhere to show how silly it is.

 

[Justadude]

Oh, I always enjoyed a good debate with my agnostic friend at work. We freely insulted each other and were better friends for it, but I know what you mean.

Thanks.

It's not that I'd be insulting, it's that any sort of push back would be seen as rude and disrespectful.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You believe what Richard Dawkins says? How are you a Christian then?


You said healing racism was a liberal humanist idea that you objected to having taught in church.


The only racism I've seen recently has come from Christians, some right here in this forum.


How many churches are teaching that God and Jesus aren't real? Isn't that just atheism?


Can you quote one saying God and Jesus aren't real?


You'd better hope they teach better apologetics than some of the anti-science, conspiracy theory, and bigoted nonsense that gets posted here.


Okay.


This is a good example of what I'm talking about. From what I can tell, you have no real education, training, or experience in science. You've also posted here (in the "heresy" thread) that you will always believe what the Bible says over science no matter what and that nothing can ever change your mind. Together, those two things make you both ignorant of science and about as biased as a person can be.

But you talk about science like you're some sort of expert or authority, where everyone should believe what you say about it, for no other reason than that you say so. Plus, the nonsense you posted above runs counter to how science has operated for about 500 years! There hasn't been any scientist or science organization that has ever taken that position or advocated anything like that.

Do you see my point? You know very little about science, you're extremely biased, and the things you say about science are about as wrong as wrong can be, yet you post as if you're the one person in the world everyone should listen to regarding science. Plus, you do all that under the banner of Christianity and tell people they have to agree with you or else they're not Christians. Do you really think that makes Christianity look appealing?

Okay, I hear you. But let me ask you a question:
Do you really believe that the whole universe and the world around you has been created out of absolutely nothing?

 

[Justadude]

Okay, I hear you. But let me ask you a question:
Do you really believe that the whole universe and the world around you has been created out of absolutely nothing?

Wait, you ignore everything I posted including questions I asked, and now you expect me to answer your questions? I noticed in the heresy thread you do that often.

Do you always disrespect people like that?

 

[Giuliano]

Thanks.

It's not that I'd be insulting, it's that any sort of push back would be seen as rude and disrespectful.

I think this might be connected with the problems mentioned in the opening post. Christians are used to dominating culture in the US. They did it without thinking. They had laws that minorities objected to, but Christians didn't much care. Minorities didn't have much power so they weren't seen as a threat to Christian dominance. If someone disagreed, he couldn't do much about it and Christians mostly ignored it.

Today some Christians feel embattled. They want to maintain their dominance but realize their clout is eroding. Now expressing disagreement is seen as a threat to their way of life. It really isn't, of course; but they feel that way.

Some confuse freedom of religion with dominating culture. In their minds, freedom of religion means they dominate. In the long run, this attitude only makes things worse since some non-Christians are alienated by that attitude.

 

[Justadude]

I think this might be connected with the problems mentioned in the opening post. Christians are used to dominating culture in the US. They did it without thinking. They had laws that minorities objected to, but Christians didn't much care. Minorities didn't have much power so they weren't seen as a threat to Christian dominance. If someone disagreed, he couldn't do much about it and Christians mostly ignored it.

Today some Christians feel embattled. They want to maintain their dominance but realize their clout is eroding. Now expressing disagreement is seen as a threat to their way of life. It really isn't, of course; but they feel that way.

Some confuse freedom of religion with dominating culture. In their minds, freedom of religion means they dominate. In the long run, this attitude only makes things worse since some non-Christians are alienated by that attitude.

All that's very true and puts me in mind of a saying I see a lot now. "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression."

However, when it comes to my situation, I don't think it's all about that (although it plays a part). I think it's more that because they're on the side of trying to convert me to a religious belief, any rebuttals and counter-arguments I'd make would be seen as disrespecting that religious belief. It reminds me of a time (and this is going to be blunt, so I hope it's okay) when I was eating dinner with a friend. When he went to the bathroom, an older women came over to me and, right in the middle of me eating, asked if I knew Jesus and had accepted him as my savior. My first response was "I'm eating please", but she kept going. So I put my fork down, looked her straight in the eye and said "Jesus is dead. He's gone and never coming back. Get over it." She gasped, started shaking, and walked away crying. Next thing her husband comes over and starts yelling at me for being rude to his wife. I yelled back that she interrupted my meal, I tried to get her to leave and she wouldn't, and she was rude in the first place for trying to preach to me without even knowing anything about me. He yelled something about me going to hell and stomped off.

In my mind she got what she deserved. But my friend (who is a Christian and came back when the husband was yelling at me) didn't see it that way. He saw it as she was trying to "save" me and genuinely had my best interests at heart, plus that I was very disrespectful to her beliefs.

That's what I'm talking about. In our society, the understood context is that that women is doing good and I'm not, even though if I had my way neither one of us would've spoken to each other. I've shared this story with many of my Christian friends and family and most of them see it the same way. She was loving, I was mean.

So when my Christian friends and family start preaching to me and trying to persuade me, I keep my true thoughts to myself and just reply with polite platitudes. I know if I said what I really thought I'd lose some friends and some of my family would no longer speak to me. For me it's just not worth it.

 

[Justadude]

Actually @Giuliano the more I think about it, the more I think you're right about Christian privilege. If I were a Muslim and I went up to strangers in restaurants and started preaching to them about Islam and Mohammed, I'd probably get kicked out (or in some towns locked up). But Christians doing that is just seen as completely normal.

 

[Giuliano]

All that's very true and puts me in mind of a saying I see a lot now. "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression."

However, when it comes to my situation, I don't think it's all about that (although it plays a part). I think it's more that because they're on the side of trying to convert me to a religious belief, any rebuttals and counter-arguments I'd make would be seen as disrespecting that religious belief.

Still, don't they realize that treating you with respect would probably be a better way to convince you to think being a Christian was a good thing? It seems to me that treating nonbelievers with disrespect is counterproductive.

It reminds me of a time (and this is going to be blunt, so I hope it's okay) when I was eating dinner with a friend. When he went to the bathroom, an older women came over to me and, right in the middle of me eating, asked if I knew Jesus and had accepted him as my savior. My first response was "I'm eating please", but she kept going. So I put my fork down, looked her straight in the eye and said "Jesus is dead. He's gone and never coming back. Get over it." She gasped, started shaking, and walked away crying. Next thing her husband comes over and starts yelling at me for being rude to his wife. I yelled back that she interrupted my meal, I tried to get her to leave and she wouldn't, and she was rude in the first place for trying to preach to me without even knowing anything about me. He yelled something about me going to hell and stomped off.

In my mind she got what she deserved. But my friend (who is a Christian and came back when the husband was yelling at me) didn't see it that way. He saw it as she was trying to "save" me and genuinely had my best interests at heart, plus that I was very disrespectful to her beliefs.

That's what I'm talking about. In our society, the understood context is that that women is doing good and I'm not, even though if I had my way neither one of us would've spoken to each other. I've shared this story with many of my Christian friends and family and most of them see it the same way. She was loving, I was mean.

I think she behaved abominably. She was not obeying the Golden Rule. I think you probably could have handled it better too, but she started it and she persisted. I don't feel sorry for her.

Would she like it if you had sauntered over to her table and asked her if she was a person given to religious fantasies and that you wished to talk her into rejecting her religion? Of course not. No, she was not obeying the Golden Rule. I think both of them knew it too. People often get angry when they know they're wrong but don't want to admit it.

So when my Christian friends and family start preaching to me and trying to persuade me, I keep my true thoughts to myself and just reply with polite platitudes. I know if I said what I really thought I'd lose some friends and some of my family would no longer speak to me. For me it's just not worth it.

Ha, you may be a better Christian than they are. Oh the irony!

Actually @Giuliano the more I think about it, the more I think you're right about Christian privilege. If I were a Muslim and I went up to strangers in restaurants and started preaching to them about Islam and Mohammed, I'd probably get kicked out (or in some towns locked up). But Christians doing that is just seen as completely normal.

It kind of worries me because if they persist in that attitude, more people will hate them; and when Christians really become a minority, the people they offended may seek revenge.

More attacks on churches might happen. Burning churches may become more common. Defacing religious statues and pictures might. That could trigger even more anger in Christians, making them want to arm themselves and fight back.

Did you notice the "religious divide" in the primaries? If there were Protestants running as Democrats, they didn't get very far. There was one debate with seven candidates -- and three were Jews and one was Catholic. Both are used to being minorities in American society, so I think they know how to get along with other minorities. It looks to me though as if the Republican Party is largely Protestant with a scattering of Mormons and other denominations that may lean to the right for other reasons. Evangelicals seem to be calling lots of the shots.

We can add race to the mix. Some whites are starting to feel outnumbered and some are unhappy. I ask myself sometimes if some white people are Republicans mostly because they feel threatened as white people and some extremists believe that "Make America Great Again" means white supremacy. I'm sure not all Republicans read it that way; but some seem to.

 

[DPMartin]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Christianity is what it is, why should it be more like you or what you think it ought to be, unless of course you care how Christians vote.. in which case they have just as much right to think the godless are crazy and wrong as do the godless think they are crazy and wrong.

 

[Justadude]

Still, don't they realize that treating you with respect would probably be a better way to convince you to think being a Christian was a good thing? It seems to me that treating nonbelievers with disrespect is counterproductive.

My friends are usually polite about it as are most of my family. However, there is one semi-friend (friend of a friend) and a couple of family members (the older ones) who are pretty aggressive and condescending. When I see they're going to be at a get-together, I know what's coming.

My view though is that trying to convert me at all is disrespectful, especially when they do it repeatedly. I can maybe understand doing it once, but after I've made it known that I'm not interested I think it's rude for them to persist.

I think she behaved abominably. She was not obeying the Golden Rule. I think you probably could have handled it better too, but she started it and she persisted. I don't feel sorry for her.

Would she like it if you had sauntered over to her table and asked her if she was a person given to religious fantasies and that you wished to talk her into rejecting her religion? Of course not. No, she was not obeying the Golden Rule. I think both of them knew it too. People often get angry when they know they're wrong but don't want to admit it.

That's my exactly my point. I've never once attempted to talk anyone out of their religious faith, whereas people trying to talk me into their faith is a regular occurrence. I think that has a lot to do with how society sees religious belief as a good thing and non-belief as a negative.

Ha, you may be a better Christian than they are. Oh the irony!

LOL....I'll make sure to tell them that next time.

It kind of worries me because if they persist in that attitude, more people will hate them; and when Christians really become a minority, the people they offended may seek revenge.

More attacks on churches might happen. Burning churches may become more common. Defacing religious statues and pictures might. That could trigger even more anger in Christians, making them want to arm themselves and fight back.

Yep, I've seen it expressed as, Christians are terrified of being a minority because they worry non-Christians will treat them the same way Christians treated minorities in the past.

Did you notice the "religious divide" in the primaries? If there were Protestants running as Democrats, they didn't get very far. There was one debate with seven candidates -- and three were Jews and one was Catholic. Both are used to being minorities in American society, so I think they know how to get along with other minorities. It looks to me though as if the Republican Party is largely Protestant with a scattering of Mormons and other denominations that may lean to the right for other reasons. Evangelicals seem to be calling lots of the shots.

Definitely, and Trumpism has only exacerbated that.

We can add race to the mix. Some whites are starting to feel outnumbered and some are unhappy. I ask myself sometimes if some white people are Republicans mostly because they feel threatened as white people and some extremists believe that "Make America Great Again" means white supremacy. I'm sure not all Republicans read it that way; but some seem to.

Some surveys taken after the 2016 election showed that one common characteristic among white Trump voters was a feeling of "racial anxiety", which takes us back to the earlier point of how to the privileged equality feels like oppression. A lot of people think in zero-sum terms, where if a minority group is improving their status, it must be at the expense of the majority. So they end up supporting politicians who work to keep the minorities in their place.

But overall I think that sort of thing is fading as gen-x'ers and millennials replace boomers, so there is room for optimism.

 

[Justadude]

Christianity is what it is

But does it have to include opposition to science, anti-intellectualism, discrimination against LGBTQs, conspiracy theories, etc.?

why should it be more like you or what you think it ought to be, unless of course you care how Christians vote.. in which case they have just as much right to think the godless are crazy and wrong as do the godless think they are crazy and wrong.

My point is, do Christians think tying those above things to Christianity makes the faith more appealing to non-Christians? Or are those things actually turning people away from the faith?

 

[ScottA]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Welcome to planet earth!

I mean, you might as well ask God if all these things should be here - He created and allowed it all.

But, seriously, don't misunderstand. The world is not a war that we should try to win, it is a war that was won "before the foundation of the world." And this - all this that would appear to be the failure of Christianity, is rather the victory of God. This is the dividing of light and darkness daily - as He said from the beginning. This is everyone, every generation, having their moment in the sun, their hour of decision. That is what Jesus meant when He said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So...don't be disheartened - praise His Name!

 

[Justadude]

Welcome to planet earth!

I mean, you might as well ask God if all these things should be here - He created and allowed it all.

So people are powerless to control what they say and do?

But, seriously, don't misunderstand. The world is not a war that we should try to win, it is a war that was won "before the foundation of the world." And this - all this is that would appear to be the failure of Christianity, is rather the victory of God. This the dividing of light and darkness daily - as He said from the beginning. This is everyone, every generation, having there moment in the sun, their hour of decision. That is what Jesus meant when He said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So...don't be disheartened - praise His Name!

I suspect that message would be more meaningful to your fellow Christians.

 

[ScottA]

So people are powerless to control what they say and do?


I suspect that message would be more meaningful to your fellow Christians.

That is why it is important to consider the truth that God is real. If there is no God, then mankind is indeed powerless, and indeed, we would have no advocate against things that are out of our control.

I recommend not believing those who can't even tell you "What happened before?"...which is the case with science, and instead consider that at the core of those who merely "believe" in God, there are those who actually do "know", and have answers beyond the knowledge of those who do not. Consider, that within the realm of mankind everyone can only have the same information (or less), and that the only way to have greater knowledge, is if the knowledge comes within the realm of mankind from the outside. That is what God has done with His servants the prophets, and those whom He has given His spirit. Which He has done as a road map since the beginning. These things you should have perceived.

Back to people being powerless. Assuming you can perceive all that God is and has been doing, it is within the "I am" nature of God, that the answer to your question lies. Within that same nature, we all are not doing nothing, but we are doing according to what we "are." In other words, if asked if we are doing what we are doing according to who we are (as Moses asked God), the correct answer for us all, is also, "I am"...because that is who we are. Thus, we are all just doing what we are doing because of who we are. Which is not powerless, but the power of God toward all that He has created.

But to those who do not perceive it, they shall see the end before they see the truth.

 

[Justadude]

That is why it is important to consider the truth that God is real. If there is no God, then mankind is indeed powerless, and indeed, we would have no advocate against things that are out of our control.

If there are no gods, then we are not powerless. If there are gods, then it depends on what type of gods they are.

I recommend not believing those who can't even tell you "What happened before?"...which is the case with science, and instead consider that at the core of those who merely "believe" in God, there are those who actually do "know", and have answers beyond the knowledge of those who do not.

No thanks. The people I've encountered who insist that they "do know" those types of things always cite magical thinking when pressed on exactly how they came to know.

Consider, that within the realm of mankind everyone can only have the same information (or less), and that the only way to have greater knowledge, is if the knowledge comes within the realm of mankind from the outside. That is what God has done with His servants the prophets, and those whom He has given His spirit. Which He has done as a road map since the beginning. These things you should have perceived.

I've never seen anything from any "prophet" that wasn't either already knowable or was just claims about untestable magical realms.

Back to people being powerless. Assuming you can perceive all that God is and has been doing, it is within the "I am" nature of God, that the answer to your question lies. Within that same nature, we all are not doing nothing, but we are doing according to what we "are." In other words, if asked if we are doing what we are doing according to who we are (as Moses asked God), the correct answer for us all, is also, "I am"...because that is who we are. Thus, we are all just doing what we are doing because of who we are. Which is not powerless, but the power of God toward all that He has created.

But to those who do not perceive it, they shall see the end before they see the truth.

To repeat, that's best said to your fellow believers.

 

[ScottA]

If there are no gods, then we are not powerless. If there are gods, then it depends on what type of gods they are.


No thanks. The people I've encountered who insist that they "do know" those types of things always cite magical thinking when pressed on exactly how they came to know.


I've never seen anything from any "prophet" that wasn't either already knowable or was just claims about untestable magical realms.


To repeat, that's best said to your fellow believers.

Still...there is the road map, and you have said "No thanks." Not very astute.

Which means you asked a question, and have also refused the answer - because, I did give you the answer to your question. Whether you receive it or not is up to you, but it doesn't change the truth.

 

[Justadude]

Still...there is the road map, and you have said "No thanks." Not very astute.

I'm not allowed to not be a Christian? If someone preaches Islam to me, would it be astute of me to say "no thanks" to them? And also, if you'd read through this thread you'd know that I know about Christianity's "road map", so it's not anything new to me.

Which means you asked a question, and have also refused the answer - because, I did give you the answer to your question. Whether you receive it or not is up to you, but it doesn't change the truth.

Huh? I asked if the Christians here believed espousing anti-intellectualism, conspiracy theories, anti-science, hatred of LGBTQs, and such was good for Christianity. If your answer is something like, it doesn't matter because this world isn't for Christians to win anyways, that's fine. I'll take that for what it is.

 

[Giuliano]

My friends are usually polite about it as are most of my family. However, there is one semi-friend (friend of a friend) and a couple of family members (the older ones) who are pretty aggressive and condescending. When I see they're going to be at a get-together, I know what's coming.

My view though is that trying to convert me at all is disrespectful, especially when they do it repeatedly. I can maybe understand doing it once, but after I've made it known that I'm not interested I think it's rude for them to persist.


That's my exactly my point. I've never once attempted to talk anyone out of their religious faith, whereas people trying to talk me into their faith is a regular occurrence. I think that has a lot to do with how society sees religious belief as a good thing and non-belief as a negative.


LOL....I'll make sure to tell them that next time.

Here's a Bible verse to quote:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There is another place where Jesus talks about people so eager to convert others.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I laughed when I read that verse again. You too could become a self-righteous hypocrite who sees everyone else as potentially needing your help. If you could get them to admit how inferior they are, you might feel better about yourself inside.

Yep, I've seen it expressed as, Christians are terrified of being a minority because they worry non-Christians will treat them the same way Christians treated minorities in the past.

Definitely, and Trumpism has only exacerbated that.

I imagine some will catch themselves when they see they are being tempted to fall into a panic while others will become increasingly paranoid.

Some surveys taken after the 2016 election showed that one common characteristic among white Trump voters was a feeling of "racial anxiety", which takes us back to the earlier point of how to the privileged equality feels like oppression. A lot of people think in zero-sum terms, where if a minority group is improving their status, it must be at the expense of the majority. So they end up supporting politicians who work to keep the minorities in their place.

But overall I think that sort of thing is fading as gen-x'ers and millennials replace boomers, so there is room for optimism.

There is room for optimism, I agree; but the Republican Party may be misguided if they are optimistic about pursuing the past strategies that got them elected. It's a matter of time before some states go blue. The Republican Party has been losing clout and members for some time in states like Texas and Georgia. If they don't broaden their appeal, they're done for.

I remain optimistic in general. I noticed a shift in attitudes in my town after Trump was elected. Lots of black people (not all, of course) seemed friendlier than before. I figured they were trying to send a message that they weren't racist and didn't want white people to feel threatened. I took up the same attitude. I became more friendly with black people I met casually on the street. Maybe the town I live is in unusual. It is predominantly white -- but we have a black mayor and a black chief of police. You may be amused by how the black guy got elected mayor. When the white men running as Republicans, the more extreme guy refused to accept his loss and ran as an independent. (he is a real extremist.) The black Democrat won his first term narrowly. If all the white Republicans had voted for the same guy, they would have won the election. The mayor is now so popular, I expect him to be re-elected as long as he wants to run. People don't care about his race or political party that much.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not allowed to not be a Christian? If someone preaches Islam to me, would it be astute of me to say "no thanks" to them? And also, if you'd read through this thread you'd know that I know about Christianity's "road map", so it's not anything new to me.


Huh? I asked if the Christians here believed espousing anti-intellectualism, conspiracy theories, anti-science, hatred of LGBTQs, and such was good for Christianity. If your answer is something like, it doesn't matter because this world isn't for Christians to win anyways, that's fine. I'll take that for what it is.

1. There is only one road map provided by God. Would you go into a convenient store and ask for "A map, any map?" Apparently there is more to your position than just seeking the truth. I gave you enough information to get on track, but you are thinking that everything is equal? It's not.

2. And I answered that what you thought was the situation, is not the situation the situation at all...and then I told you what the actual situation is. You are like one who asks for directions, then after being told the right way from the wrong way, just sits there considering the wrong way.

All of what I told you is intelligent, but none of your response is. Your definition of intellectualism is suspect.