Is this good for Christianity?

[Joseph77]

Jesus and His disciples taught by Him understood the lost ones, but that did not save the lost ones.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That's fair. You were talking to Scott, so I understand.


I'll just note again how circular that is (you have to believe in order for the belief to make sense).


Except from my POV the airplane is flying just fine and when I question the people who insist it's going down, they tell me I have to first believe it's going down and then something magical will happen and I'll start to see how the plane is going down.

I don't like putting it this way because I understand how it comes across as offensive, but "you need to believe before it makes sense" is straight of the con man's playbook. That's why "con" is short for confidence. Once the con man has your trust, confidence, and faith he can get you to believe almost anything. It's why maintaining one's critical thinking is the antidote to being conned.

Please understand, I'm not saying you all are a bunch of con men. I do appreciate that you really do believe with all your hearts that the Bible is God's Word and God sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins. I'm just hoping some of you can understand how it seems from my perspective.

The first step to a clear understanding is to believe that the literal text of the Bible is totally true and that it is God's communication to mankind. Until you do that, you are not even in the ball park concerning truly understanding the Christian faith, let alone getting to first base.

You may think you understand, but it is merely shallow and superficial.

 

[Justadude]

Remember Noah ?
Remember Lot ?
Remember the Israelites ?
Remember the 1st century Ekklesia ?
Remember between the Garden and the Flood ?

There was only TWO TIMES when those who believed in God was "most" of the world ... Right after Adam and Chavah(Eve) were kicked out of the Garden, (for a time - though the world/society quickly grew in wickedness),
and after the Flood, (again, for a time - and the world/ society quickly grew in wickedness again).

Not being a Christian, I don't believe those are real events.

So no one will see "many" true Christians if they look around the world/ society/ the USA... Europe/ etc ....

So no one will see what I think you expect or would think of "more effort" "countering those things" (that are wrong) everywhere.

I guess that depends on what you think a "true Christian" is.

 

[Joseph77]

Not being a Christian, I don't believe those are real events.

Not being a Christian
doesn't change anything .

Trump is still President of the USA.

God the Creator is still the only hope for anyone anywhere.

Real events do not depend on you nor your beliefs at all, for anything (unless they want your money?) ....

I guess that depends on what you think a "true Christian" is.

No, not at all.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus and His disciples taught by Him understood the lost ones, but that did not save the lost ones.

Most lost ones stay lost. Nothing saves them.

 

[Justadude]

"Inaction" = not going after people for ThoughtCrime? Or otherwise enforcing how I think somebody else should act or think?

Are you advocating that I or anybody else should do this?

I'm saying if you belong to a group that believes it's important to persuade people to join, and significant numbers of people within your group are behaving in ways that negatively affects the likelihood of successful persuasion and generally make your group look bad, then you might want to focus your energy towards the poorly-behaving people in your group instead of on the outside people who make note of them and their behaviors.

And if you don't, then you aren't really in a position to complain when people like me point out those behaviors.

 

[Justadude]

The first step to a clear understanding is to believe that the literal text of the Bible is totally true and that it is God's communication to mankind. Until you do that, you are not even in the ball park concerning truly understanding the Christian faith, let alone getting to first base.

You may think you understand, but it is merely shallow and superficial.

Circular. I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense, so I need to first believe it and then it will make sense, at which point I will believe it.

I think you can do better than that.

 

[Justadude]

Not being a Christian
doesn't change anything .

Trump is still President of the USA.

Not sure what Trump has to do with this.

God the Creator is still the only hope for anyone anywhere.

Real events do not depend on you nor your beliefs at all, for anything (unless they want your money?) ....

Likewise, things don't become real just because you believe they are real.

No, not at all.

Okay.

 

[Joseph77]

Circular. I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense, so I need to first believe it and then it will make sense, at which point I will believe it.

I think you can do better than that.

ooops....
If someone is talking to a brick, and the brick doesn't grow ears or a conscience and doesn't listen,

how can that someone do "better than that" / better than what they've done so far ?!

Even Jesus did not make a person believe - they either chose to seek the truth, and kept seeking the truth, and turned to the Father,
or they remained dead.

We cannot make a person alive, nor can we make a person believe either - it is not our job, nor is it what Jesus says to do, nor is it what the Father instructs us to do.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm saying if you belong to a group that believes it's important to persuade people to join, and significant numbers of people within your group are behaving in ways that negatively affects the likelihood of successful persuasion and generally make your group look bad, then you might want to focus your energy towards the poorly-behaving people in your group instead of on the outside people who make note of them and their behaviors.

And if you don't, then you aren't really in a position to complain when people like me point out those behaviors.

I"m sorry, but this post is essentially:
"Jane, you should preach at people to act how you think they should,
or if you don't I'm going to complain & stereotype how Christians preach at others to act how that person thinks they should."

It's not a very logical position.

 

[Justadude]

ooops....
If someone is talking to a brick, and the brick doesn't grow ears or a conscience and doesn't listen,

how can that someone do "better than that" / better than what they've done so far ?!

Even Jesus did not make a person believe - they either chose to seek the truth, and kept seeking the truth, and turned to the Father,
or they remained dead.

We cannot make a person alive, nor can we make a person believe either - it is not our job, nor is it what Jesus says to do, nor is it what the Father instructs us to do.

Are Christians responsible for how they present the Gospel?

 

[Justadude]

I"m sorry, but this post is essentially:
"Jane, you should preach at people to act how you think they should,
or if you don't I'm going to complain & stereotype how Christians preach at others to act how that person thinks they should."

Incorrect. I never made that sort of threat.

Look at it this way. In this recent conversation, haven't you been trying to convince me to change what I say and how I think about Christians?

It's not a very logical position.

Straw man arguments usually are.

 

[Joseph77]

When a man dies, he is judged for what he did in his life - not for what others did.

He is judged , in this life and in the next, for his own words/ by his own words - not by the words of others.

So when judgment , righteous judgment, is accomplished, for you, it will be only because of what you did and said -

not what anyone else did or said. You, like everyone else, will be judged by your own words (and deeds).

Are Christians responsible for how they present the Gospel?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Incorrect. I never made that sort of threat.

Look at it this way. In this recent conversation, haven't you been trying to convince me to change what I say and how I think about Christians?


Straw man arguments usually are.

I am talking to you as an individual.
Nothing about groups.

Here, I"m going to just break out of all of these stereotypes you have--

I'm Christian. LDS Christian or "Mormon" to be more specific. I'm also scientist and got my phD in Evolution/Ecology/Data, working that field for many years. Obviously I'm a big fan of science, evolution, education etc. I believe quite strongly in respecting others, being self aware, and thoughtful about whatever you believe. And earnest questions are seeds of knowledge & wisdom.

Talking about you: I completely acknowledge your right to believe whatever the heck you do. Even if it's (in my assessment) damaging and/or stupid. Whatever, you have the right to believe it. While i"m happy to chat & have quality two-way dialogue, I really really strive to ever avoid preaching at somebody (and get really annoyed when other people do so). I'm not going to try to force you to believe anything or police you.

Talking about @Paul Christensen for a moment (I'm assuming he's ok with that, Paul speak up if you're not) : while both Paul and I are Christians, we obviously have very different views on many subjects. He's anti-evolution, very literal belief, much more preaching-inclined, etc. We've chatted respectfully off and on for years. I totally acknowledge his right to believe what he believes, regardless of what I think about it. I'm not going to try to force him to believe anything -- which includes forcing him to be less preaching-inclined.


Does that make sense?

 

[Truth OT]

a need to explain the orderliness of creation

The explanation of how the universe works in a noble pursuit. But why insert a singular creator? What evidence leads to such a hypothesis? How does that hypothesis stand up to testing? Can it even be tested?

If one wishes to come to the best conclusion, they must examine the actual happenings within the cosmos and follow the paths laid out by the phenomenon we can observe and necessarily infer.

 

[Justadude]

When a man dies, he is judged for what he did in his life - not for what others did.

So Christians are responsible for how they present the Gospel.

 

[Justadude]

I am talking to you as an individual.
Nothing about groups.

Groups are made up of individuals, so to ignore the effect individual behaviors have on the larger group is to be deliberately naive.

Here, I"m going to just break out of all of these stereotypes you have--

You keep making the same error. I don't lump all Christians into any stereotype.

I'm Christian. LDS Christian or "Mormon" to be more specific. I'm also scientist and got my phD in Ecology/Data, working that field for many years. Obviously I'm a big fan of science, evolution, education etc. I believe quite strongly in respecting others, being self aware, and thoughtful about whatever you believe.

That's pretty consistent with my Christian friends.

Talking about you: I completely acknowledge your right to believe whatever the heck you do. Even if it's (in my assessment) damaging and/or stupid. Whatever, you have the right to believe it. While i"m happy to chat & have quality two-way dialogue, I really really strive to ever avoid preaching at somebody (and get really annoyed when other people do so). I'm not going to try to force you to believe anything or police you.

Okay.

Talking about @Paul Christensen for a moment (I'm assuming he's ok with that, Paul speak up if you're not) : while both Paul and I are Christians, we obviously have very different views on many subjects. He's anti-evolution, very literal belief, much more preaching-inclined, etc. We've chatted respectfully off and on for years. I totally acknowledge his right to believe what he believes, regardless of what I think about it. I'm not going to try to force him to believe anything -- which includes forcing him to be less preaching-inclined.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

Not in the context of what we've been talking about. I've been talking about being persuasive and compelling, which you seem to be conflating with forcing things on people.

On a side note, I recently saw poll results that showed what was for me, a shocking percentage of Mormons who denied the evolution of humans. I only know a few Mormons and even then it's very superficial (one family hasn't spoken to me after they found out I wasn't religious at all), so I've never really known for sure what the Mormon Church's stance is. Is it part of official Mormon doctrine that humans are separate creations rather than evolved primates?

 

[Joseph77]

You are without excuse. That is what God's Word states clearly.

You are not able to discern or to appraise the spiritual. That is what God's Word states clearly.

He has mercy on whom He desires to have mercy. That is what God's Word states clearly.

Those who turn to Jesus (in truth), Jesus states clearly He will not cast out >>

Study Bible
Jesus the Bread of Life
…36But as I stated, you have seen Me and still you do not believe. 37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

So if you do not receive eternal life, you have no one at all to blame except yourself.

So Christians are responsible for how they present the Gospel.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Circular. I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense, so I need to first believe it and then it will make sense, at which point I will believe it.

I think you can do better than that.

Of course it doesn't make sense to you, because the things of the Spirit of God come by revelation from God Himself to those who choose to believe the gospel. As long as you remain agnostic, you won't receive that revelation, because you have to choose to believe the gospel first. That's just the way it is.

 

[Joseph77]

Finally, the "rest of the story" so to speak.
If you believe in the lies of the world, or of the Mormons,
you must give those up if you decide to seek eternal life, in Jesus.


There is no other way, no, not any other way.

On a side note, I recently saw poll results that showed what was for me, a shocking percentage of Mormons who denied the evolution of humans. I only know a few Mormons and even then it's very superficial (one family hasn't spoken to me after they found out I wasn't religious at all), so I've never really known for sure what the Mormon Church's stance is. Is it part of official Mormon doctrine that humans are separate creations rather than evolved primates?