Is this good for Christianity?

[Justadude]

That is indeed a challenge.
One thing I've found is to really try to show earnesty in your search, going out of your way to use a respectful tone/words, and treat their beliefs like they are precious-- because they are precious to that person (even if you totally disagree with them).

Very good advice.

I admit I struggle doing that at times, especially when I get the sense that someone is basically telling to believe something "because I say so". Add in threats of judgement and punishment by the gods if I don't take their word for it and it just gets worse. I've always been of the mind that if it's really this all-important truth from a god, then believers should welcome questions and be ready with solid fact-based answers. When people start getting evasive towards me, I start losing patience.

Probably something I should work on.

 

[ScottA]

[1] You're the one who brought up time and alleged revelations occurring before time, and now you say time is not an issue? Do you understand how that can be confusing?

[2] What specific reality are you talking about?

[3] Can you provide an example?

[4] So far you've told me about a dream/vision you had. I've tried to coax additional details and specifics out of you but you seem to be reluctant to provide any. I hope you understand why that sort of thing raises red flags for me. I would think if what you're talking about really was reality you'd have no trouble at all answering my questions.

[5] It looks to me like you have no trouble explaining the consequences of not believing you or dismissing these revelations, but providing specific details about them is much more problematic. Again that raises red flags.

Same thing. You're quite adept at telling me that I should believe this alleged truth and what the consequences will be if I don't, but when it comes to actual details and specifics about the "truth" itself, you come across as deliberately evasive.

Perhaps you can start by explaining what this "reality" is and provide examples of it being revealed before time began.

1. Time is part of the explanation, it's what differentiates between what is true and what is not. All claims limited to the realm of time should be disqualified as closed-circuit conjecture. Again, that leaves only one remaining truth.

I do understand how it is confusing for one who has put all their faith in that same closed-circuit. But that does not answer the question of what truth and actual reality is.

2. There is only one reality. We may like to think of our own individual circumstances as our own reality, but that is just a misuse of the term.

3. Example: The Bible. My own testimony agrees with it, and there is a reason.

4. I have no trouble answering your questions. The problem is not mine. Your approach is the problem, it qualifies as insanity. Stop repeating your failures--you are not gaining on your quest. Stop trying to "coax" actual reality into your failed understanding of reality. Instead, be intent on gaining what you do not have.

5. Good observation! True, reflections are backwards in appearance. Now, consider what it is that you have discovered: If the actual reality that is life appears to be backwards from the would-be reality that ends in death, you are on the right track. If that leaves you feeling upside down or backwards...what should you do? Stick to your original, failed logic? Not advisable.

As for being "evasive", it is you who is being evasive, not me. You have categorically dismissed everything but your own logic and limited knowledge.

 

[Justadude]

IMHO non-believers who mock Christian's because their lives do not reflect all Biblical teaching perfectly are showing how ignorant of the Truth they truly are. And those who disagree with the beliefs of others are not wrong for disagreeing...they are wrong for how they speak to the one they disagree with.
A Christian never stops growing in their walk with Christ and they will stumble and even cause others to stumble but it is the Holy Spirit who convicts their heart to repentance.

I generally agree. I'm reluctant to be one of those people who do that. However, if it's particularly egregious (e.g., anti-LGBTQ pastors or politicians being caught being gay) I think it's okay to point out the hypocrisy.

What creed do non-believers live by? Do they have any moral standard to uphold?
Do they have any accountability to one another that is demanded of that group to live by?

It's empathy towards your fellow human beings and rules that help society stay functional.

Just asking....kind of gets old with non-believers always pointing the finger at Christians and say things like "this is why people hate Christianity ".

That kinda goes with the territory though when so many Christians and Christian leaders try to claim moral authority and impose their morals on the rest of us. When they do that, they're making themselves targets.

However, if you're talking about the OP in this thread, that's more about the crazy and hateful things that seem (at least to me) to be increasing among Christians, and whether that's affecting the decline of the faith in the developed world.

More evil is done in this world by non-believers than by Christians.

I'm not sure how you'd even quantify that.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Very good advice.

I admit I struggle doing that at times, especially when I get the sense that someone is basically telling to believe something "because I say so". Add in threats of judgement and punishment by the gods if I don't take their word for it and it just gets worse. I've always been of the mind that if it's really this all-important truth from a god, then believers should welcome questions and be ready with solid fact-based answers. When people start getting evasive towards me, I start losing patience.

Probably something I should work on.

We all need to work on it.

One thing I do find to help me maintain sanity/patience: rejoice in the good examples you do find. Even if the logic doesn't make sense to you, rejoice that some individual is going out of their way to explain things to you. Flee from the impulse to stereotype or "this person is just like the others" (a powerful impulse we all have). Also, realize that the person you're talking to has probably had bad experiences with people "just like you" (however they are choosing to classify that).

 

[Justadude]

1. Time is part of the explanation, it's what differentiates between what is true and what is not. All claims limited to the realm of time should be disqualified as closed-circuit conjecture. Again, that leaves only one remaining truth.

I do understand how it is confusing for one who has put all their faith in that same closed-circuit. But that does not answer the question of what truth and actual reality is.

Can you provide an example of a claim that is outside of time?

2. There is only one reality. We may like to think of our own individual circumstances as our own reality, but that is just a misuse of the term.

How do you define reality?

3. Example: The Bible. My own testimony agrees with it, and there is a reason.

Are you saying the Bible precedes time? Also, are you talking about your dream/vision when you use the term "my testimony"?

4. I have no trouble answering your questions. The problem is not mine. Your approach is the problem, it qualifies as insanity. Stop repeating your failures--you are not gaining on your quest. Stop trying to "coax" actual reality into your failed understanding of reality. Instead, be intent on gaining what you do not have.

More red flags. Much like the Christian leaders I grew up around, you see asking tough questions and applying critical thinking as "insanity". They saw it as a "lack of faith". My Christian friends and family see it as "thinking too much".

When someone tells me I should stop asking questions and suspend critical thinking in order to believe something, that's an immediate warning bell for me. It basically indicates to me that someone is about to try and put one over on me.

5. Good observation! True, reflections are backwards in appearance. Now, consider what it is that you have discovered: If the actual reality that is life appears to be backwards from the would-be reality that ends in death, you are on the right track. If that leaves you feeling upside down or backwards...what should you do? Stick to your original, failed logic? Not advisable.

As for being "evasive", it is you who is being evasive, not me. You have categorically dismissed everything but your own logic and limited knowledge.

That's all still very evasive. So far the closest you've come to providing anything specific is when you referred to "the Bible". If your basic message here boils down to nothing more than "the Bible is God's Word", just say it directly and we can go from there.

As far as me being evasive, that makes zero sense. You're the one telling me I should take your experiences and beliefs as real and meaningful, whereas I'm not trying to do anything like that. So I have nothing to be evasive about. But if you'll notice, you've put up yet another post that is almost entirely lacking in details or specifics.

If you don't have such details or specifics then just say so and save us both some time.

 

[Justadude]

One thing I do find to help me maintain sanity/patience: rejoice in the good examples you do find. Even if the logic doesn't make sense to you, rejoice that some individual is going out of their way to explain things to you.

I would love that! Unfortunately I've found that sort of thing to be very much lacking in the world of religion. I've explained many times how much of my experiences with Christianity consists of Christians being very irritated at being asked to explain things. IMO, much of that stems from a culture of authority within certain branches of the faith.

Flee from the impulse to stereotype or "this person is just like the others" (a powerful impulse we all have). Also, realize that the person you're talking to has probably had bad experiences with people "just like you" (however they are choosing to classify that).

Definitely. I tried helping one Christian here avoid playing right into negative stereotypes about "them ignorant science-hatin' Christians" but it turned out he was only interested in preaching at me (which is another stereotype of Christians).

I figure all I can do is try my best.

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, that is a very interesting topic. Your story about your lucid dream is fascinating!

I guess I take a different view. To me they're just dreams and nothing more, and certainly not something to take too seriously or base major life decisions on.

This post is so long, I had to break it in two. Please feel free to respond to whatever you want and pass over what you want.

Most of my dreams lately don't strike me as very important. They say something about my state of mind maybe or about my attitude in dealing with others -- but most of them seem to be projections of my own mind. Lately, I've been having dreams where I play tricks on people and they play them on me. It's not completely healthy. Maybe something needs corrected in my waking life. About six weeks ago, I had a dream of someone I'd never met before. Wouldn't you know when I went to Walmart a day or two later, there the guy was. He didn't look exactly the same way he looked in my dream; but it was the same guy. At least, I thought it was. He was walking one way and me the other. He saw me looking at him and he gave me an odd look as if . .. . well, I'm not sure what he was thinking. He gave me a big smile and I gave him one back. That was all there was to it that day. I've seen one more time. I struck up a little conversation with him. He seemed worried about something that day (this was before people were worrying about the virus). I don't think we're meant to become to be friends in actual life.

It's not concerning to me. My dreams, probably like most everyone else's, run the gamut from really fun, to boring and forgettable, to completely random and bizarre, to bad. That's just how dreams are. They seem to be little more than the brain being in a sort of rest mode during sleep, where even though you're asleep the program is still running in the background, just at a minimal level. That's why random things pop into our dreams, mostly in completely nonsensical ways. The motor's running but the driver is asleep, if you know what I mean.

Writing things off as random doesn't seem scientific to me.

That's exactly my take (power of suggestion influencing the contents of dreams). Like I said earlier, to me they're just dreams and nothing more. They're no more real than me imagining things while I'm awake. In both cases they're just thoughts in my brain.

That's your theory. What if even the physical world is a mental projection; but it seems so solid since so many people are projecting the same thing for the most part? This is not something that can be talked about and proved -- but it is something that can be experimented with.

What would you do if you started seeing through objects around you? I heard about a process (in Scientology) about making that happen. I had enough training, I felt I could do it; so I asked a friend (an atheist, by the way) to let me run it on him. After about fifteen minutes, objects did start disappearing for him. I could still see them, they still looked solid to me; but he said he could see through them. It's happened to me too, when no one was running the process on me. It can be a little startling. I'm glad I never did LSD or I would have thought I was having a flashback. Most people are actively helping to project the physical world into existence in a way that could be described as compulsive. They start to feel anxious if they think, "What would happen if that wall disappeared?" It's more alarming if they think about their body disappearing. Anxiety about losing bodies. . . . It's the stuff religion is often hung up on.

So you're in a state where you say what you see in dreams isn't real, but what you see when awake is; and your theory is that they are ideas in your brain. The current state of psychology amuses me since almost all of them begin with the theory that matter is real and that ideas and awareness are products of matter. It amuses me since really there is no hard evidence that matter is "cause" in the way they theorize. Matter could all be the result of mental projections -- and Bell's Theorem agrees with me on that. What can be known, known for sure, is that awareness exists. Matter might be a "more solid" type of mental projection than dreams and hallucinations are. Matter may be real or imagined, but in either case awareness exists. It's a fact beyond any doubt. What it is, what it's observing are up for question; but the existence of awareness is incontrovertible.

Materialism turns this upside down. Materialistic theories about the mind say matter is cause and awareness is an effect. That is strange to me since there is no proof that matter even exists independently of an observer, while awareness is known to exist. Thus something which may not exist is theorized to be causing what is known to exist.

 

[Giuliano]

That'd be interesting. The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear such stories is the notion of confirmation bias. Are you familiar with it?

Yes. Without discussing why I wanted to shift the magnetic field (most people would definitely think me nuts if tried to explain that -- but it was religious), let me tell you about the experiment. There was only one other person involved -- and he's in prison now. Too bad too that I hadn't gone online somewhere and noted my intention -- since after the experiment worked, I had no real proof.

I got my compass and put it in the groove of a doorway -- where a door. The door wouldn't move and I could make sure the compass was always in the same spot. I asked my friend to help, and I got him to make a mark on the wall across the room where the needle of the compass pointed. Then to convince him there was no funny business, I got him to hold the compass so he could see the mark he had made was correct, due magnetic north. He was an atheist at the time, and I think he thought I was a bit nutty, but he went along with my whim. Then I set to work trying to move the magnetic north pole. I worked at it for about a month. Of course, the magnetic poles are drifting all the time, so a slight movement or a movement in the opposite direction I wanted would be a failure. But it worked. I got a much bigger drift than I expected -- and in the right direction. Then I got my friend to repeat things with me so he could see that the compass needle was no longer pointing to the same part. The poor fellow -- he didn't believe in any "supernatural" stuff -- but he could see magnetic north had changed. He didn't comment on it other than to say it had moved. He wasn't curious about what I had done, so I didn't try to discuss it with him. I think he was stunned. I was pleased at first -- I still am in one way since I got the results I wanted. Then I read that an airport in Florida had to close. I felt a little guilty.

Magnetic North Pole Shifts, Forces Runway Closures at Florida Airport

The planet's northern magnetic pole is drifting slowly but steadily towards Russia -- and it's throwing off planes in Florida.

Tampa International Airport was forced to readjust its runways Thursday to account for the movement of the Earth's magnetic fields, information that pilots rely upon to navigate planes. Thanks to the fluctuations in the force, the airport has closed its primary runway until Jan. 13 to change taxiway signs to account for the shift, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

The poles are generated by movements within the Earth's inner and outer cores, though the exact process isn't exactly understood. They're also constantly in flux, moving a few degrees every year, but the changes are almost never of such a magnitude that runways require adjusting, said Paul Takemoto, a spokesman for the FAA.

The magnetic fields vary from place to place. Adjustments are needed now at airports in Tampa, but they aren't immediately required at all airports across the country.

So just how often is something like this necessary? "It happens so infrequently that they wouldn't venture a guess," Takemoto told FoxNews.com. "In fact, you're the first journalist to ever ask me about it."

Power of suggestion? Coincidence? Does it matter? I got the results I wanted, and that satisfied me. Other people can think whatever. I don't know if I'd want too many people to believe it -- Tampa International Airport might sue me to make me pay what it cost them.

IMO it's attractive to people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty, and instead have a psychological need for clarity and certainty. When it comes to questions like the meaning of life and what happens after death, some people are not at all satisfied with subjective or uncertain answers, or even no answer at all. The problem is, with questions like that there is no objective way to answer them, and that's where magical thinking comes in. Religion provides answers to those questions and does so in very certain terms, even absolute certainty in many cases, which satisfies their psychological needs. But the trade off is they have to also accept things on faith and believe in what basically amounts to magic. With some folks that's a deal they're more than happy to make. The benefits far outweigh the downside. It's like "I get the absolute certainty about life and death that I need to feel fulfilled and all I have to do is believe these stories/this book? Done!"

Imagine how attractive that is for people who have both the need for such certainty and are also predispositioned to believe in magical things! It fits right in their sweet spot!

What about you? You seem to have a lot of faith in matter. There might be a problem with believing that awareness is a projection of the brain. If your awareness is convinced that it will cease to be aware when your body dies, that might be what happens. I say that often does happen. Buddhists know about two types of "soul sleep." Christians read about people "sleeping" in the Bible but are confused about it. Some assert that everyone goes unconscious and sleeps -- waiting the resurrection. Others say the souls of people before Jesus went to sleep and he woke them up -- and they say souls no longer go to sleep. The way the Bible is written, you could argue it several ways, and people do. Often what they believe is wishful thinking. Maybe in addition to discussing hurricanes, I should tell you about my predicting my unmarried niece was pregnant.

with people like me who are (I think) pre-wired to not take things on faith and are just fine with subjectivity and uncertainty, it all seems very weird and a lot of times, silly. I can remember even as a very young kid sitting in church, listening and watching everything, and thinking to myself how strange it was that all these grown adults believed things that were, to me, ridiculous. I still feel that way when I go to church services.

As a child, I sometimes felt something "unclean" was in the air and a "miracle" that happened once. That's another story that might interest you . . . if you could believe it. I think I frightened my Mother at times. Many people said it was the Holy Ghost moving. It gave me the creeps. Maybe you are lucky you couldn't feel anything. I really don't think it's healthy when most people run around looking for signs and wonders.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I generally agree. I'm reluctant to be one of those people who do that. However, if it's particularly egregious (e.g., anti-LGBTQ pastors or politicians being caught being gay) I think it's okay to point out the hypocrisy.


It's empathy towards your fellow human beings and rules that help society stay functional.


That kinda goes with the territory though when so many Christians and Christian leaders try to claim moral authority and impose their morals on the rest of us. When they do that, they're making themselves targets.

However, if you're talking about the OP in this thread, that's more about the crazy and hateful things that seem (at least to me) to be increasing among Christians, and whether that's affecting the decline of the faith in the developed world.


I'm not sure how you'd even quantify that.

I agree about the hate and the self-righteous mentality we see from people who claim to be Christian's...however, I cannot judge them I can only try to help them see the error of their ways and pray for them. I leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.
Love....simply just love one another!
Amen? Lol
You are easy to talk to, thank you for that.
God Bless!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I would love that! Unfortunately I've found that sort of thing to be very much lacking in the world of religion. I've explained many times how much of my experiences with Christianity consists of Christians being very irritated at being asked to explain things. IMO, much of that stems from a culture of authority within certain branches of the faith.

Careful: you're generlizing.
If you want to look at an example (because individuals are individuals), feel free to ask me anything.

Definitely. I tried helping one Christian here avoid playing right into negative stereotypes about "them ignorant science-hatin' Christians" but it turned out he was only interested in preaching at me (which is another stereotype of Christians).

I was more referring to you realizing a religious person likely has had horrible past experiences with preaching disrespectful atheists.

(Note: If everything here was swapped, and "you" were religious talking to a bunch of atheists, I would also point out the reverse: that the atheist likely has had horrible past experiences with preaching disrespectful religious people.)

 

[Justadude]

This post is so long, I had to break it in two. Please feel free to respond to whatever you want and pass over what you want.

Thanks. I'll keep it brief since I feel it's starting to get a little personal.

Most of my dreams lately don't strike me as very important. They say something about my state of mind maybe or about my attitude in dealing with others -- but most of them seem to be projections of my own mind.

That's pretty much how I think of all dreams. Projections of random bits of our minds all tossed together.

He saw me looking at him and he gave me an odd look as if . .. . well, I'm not sure what he was thinking.

He was probably thinking "Why is this guy staring at me?" I know I would.

Writing things off as random doesn't seem scientific to me.

Randomness is very much a part of scientific analysis.

That's your theory. What if even the physical world is a mental projection; but it seems so solid since so many people are projecting the same thing for the most part?

Sorry, but I have no interest in solipsism or debating it.

What would you do if you started seeing through objects around you?

More than likely I'd seek professional help, as my first concern would be about a potential serious medical issue. Also, people claiming to be able to see through objects has been scientifically tested and the results show they do no better than random guessing.

Materialism turns this upside down. Materialistic theories about the mind say matter is cause and awareness is an effect.

Because we have lots of examples of matter with consciousness but none of consciousness without matter.

That is strange to me since there is no proof that matter even exists independently of an observer,

That's impossible to have for what should be one very obvious reason.

As far as your story about shifting the earth's magnetic field, I think you may have overlooked the very first sentence in the article: "The planet's northern magnetic pole is drifting slowly but steadily towards Russia -- and it's throwing off planes in Florida." That means it's been going on for a while now and is continuing to do so at a fairly steady rate. So there was no sudden jump or change, let alone in response to anything you did. Also, the earth's magnetic field has completely reversed multiple times in the past. The reversals are recorded in rocks with iron-bearing minerals. Magnetic Reversals

And when you say "Power of suggestion? Coincidence? Does it matter? I got the results I wanted, and that satisfied me." that is the very definition of confirmation bias.

What about you? You seem to have a lot of faith in matter.

Like I said, I have zero interest in solipsism.

As a child, I sometimes felt something "unclean" was in the air and a "miracle" that happened once. That's another story that might interest you . . . if you could believe it. I think I frightened my Mother at times. Many people said it was the Holy Ghost moving. It gave me the creeps. Maybe you are lucky you couldn't feel anything. I really don't think it's healthy when most people run around looking for signs and wonders.

I don't know. I'm trying to maintain a sense of critical thinking here while not offending you with my skepticism. Like I said earlier, if all these things are meaningful and important to you, the last thing I want is to take them away.

 

[Justadude]

I agree about the hate and the self-righteous mentality we see from people who claim to be Christian's...however, I cannot judge them I can only try to help them see the error of their ways and pray for them. I leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

That's a good positive attitude that I wish more people shared.

Love....simply just love one another!
Amen? Lol
You are easy to talk to, thank you for that.
God Bless!

Thanks, and same to you!

 

[Justadude]

Careful: you're generlizing.

It's just me drawing conclusions based on my experiences. But thanks for pulling me back a bit.

If you want to look at an example (because individuals are individuals), feel free to ask me anything.

Thanks! If I think of anything, I'll certainly ask.

I was more referring to you realizing a religious person likely has had horrible past experiences with preaching disrespectful atheists.

Oh for sure. One of the main reasons I no longer join atheist groups is I found many of them to be arrogant jerks. I think of them as "evangelical atheists" where it's not good enough for them to be atheists, they think everyone else should be one too.

(Note: If everything here was swapped, and "you" were religious talking to a bunch of atheists, I would also point out the reverse: that the atheist likely has had horrible past experiences with preaching disrespectful religious people.)

Being able to place yourself in someone else's shoes and truly see things from their perspective is a rare trait. That you can do so is very admirable.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Oh for sure. One of the main reasons I no longer join atheist groups is I found many of them to be arrogant jerks. I think of them as "evangelical atheists" where it's not good enough for them to be atheists, they think everyone else should be one too.

Being an arrogant jerk is a symptom of ... being an arrogant jerk
It's not remotely confined to one faith (or lack thereof).

 

[Giuliano]

Thanks. I'll keep it brief since I feel it's starting to get a little personal.


That's pretty much how I think of all dreams. Projections of random bits of our minds all tossed together.


He was probably thinking "Why is this guy staring at me?" I know I would.


Randomness is very much a part of scientific analysis.


Sorry, but I have no interest in solipsism or debating it.


More than likely I'd seek professional help, as my first concern would be about a potential serious medical issue. Also, people claiming to be able to see through objects has been scientifically tested and the results show they do no better than random guessing.


Because we have lots of examples of matter with consciousness but none of consciousness without matter.


That's impossible to have for what should be one very obvious reason.

As far as your story about shifting the earth's magnetic field, I think you may have overlooked the very first sentence in the article: "The planet's northern magnetic pole is drifting slowly but steadily towards Russia -- and it's throwing off planes in Florida." That means it's been going on for a while now and is continuing to do so at a fairly steady rate. So there was no sudden jump or change, let alone in response to anything you did. Also, the earth's magnetic field has completely reversed multiple times in the past. The reversals are recorded in rocks with iron-bearing minerals. Magnetic Reversals

And when you say "Power of suggestion? Coincidence? Does it matter? I got the results I wanted, and that satisfied me." that is the very definition of confirmation bias.


Like I said, I have zero interest in solipsism.


I don't know. I'm trying to maintain a sense of critical thinking here while not offending you with my skepticism. Like I said earlier, if all these things are meaningful and important to you, the last thing I want is to take them away.

It may be time to end our discussion.

 

[Justadude]

Being an arrogant jerk is a symptom of ... being an arrogant jerk
It's not remotely confined to one faith (or lack thereof).

I agree wholeheartedly. It's too bad, but I guess it's just part of the human condition.

 

[Justadude]

It may be time to end our discussion.

You're probably right. I'm very sorry if things got too personal.

 

[Joseph77]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Jesus says there are no perverts, no thieves, no liars, no idolators, etc etc etc IN HEAVEN in the life to come.

So they either repent in this life, and are born again, by the Will of the Father in heaven,
or
they do not make it.

No need to hate nor to fear any man, no matter how wicked they are -

if God is for us, who can be against us - what can man do to me ? Do NOT be afraid of He who can kill the body and that's all - rather fear

Him who is ABLE (and WILL) destroy both the body and the soul.....

 

[Joseph77]

I'm effectively surrounded by Christians and Christianity. Just about all my family and friends are Christians, so almost every social situation (outside of work) includes elements of Christianity, such as prayers, references to the Bible, and relevant to this topic, attempts to persuade me to go to church and convert. The problem for me is how in our society, attempts to convert people like me to Christianity are perceived as well-intended, good natured, and for my benefit. Conversely, if I were to debate the subject seriously or, god forbid (HAH), attempt to persuade them to adopt my point of view it would be perceived as rude. IOW, it's not a level playing field. They're free to badger me as much as they like, but I'm not free to do the same. So I usually end up politely listening to their appeals and saying something like "That's interesting" and "I'll think about it".

So I think maybe coming here is a cathartic exercise of sorts, where I get to have discussions and debates with Christian friends and family that I can't have in real life.

"Society" including religion, politics, medicine, science, etc etc etc

IS NOT GOOD. (nor Godly, nor Righteous, nor Saved).

 

[ScottA]

[1] Can you provide an example of a claim that is outside of time?

[2] How do you define reality?

[3] Are you saying the Bible precedes time? Also, are you talking about your dream/vision when you use the term "my testimony"?

[4] More red flags. Much like the Christian leaders I grew up around, you see asking tough questions and applying critical thinking as "insanity". They saw it as a "lack of faith". My Christian friends and family see it as "thinking too much".

When someone tells me I should stop asking questions and suspend critical thinking in order to believe something, that's an immediate warning bell for me. It basically indicates to me that someone is about to try and put one over on me.

That's all still very evasive. So far the closest you've come to providing anything specific is when you referred to "the Bible". If your basic message here boils down to nothing more than "the Bible is God's Word", just say it directly and we can go from there.

[6] As far as me being evasive, that makes zero sense. You're the one telling me I should take your experiences and beliefs as real and meaningful, whereas I'm not trying to do anything like that. So I have nothing to be evasive about. But if you'll notice, you've put up yet another post that is almost entirely lacking in details or specifics.

If you don't have such details or specifics then just say so and save us both some time.

1. “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

2. Reality is that which is infinite, forever.

3. It is not the bible that precedes time, but rather what is written therein.

My "testimony" is what I testify that has been given to me from God (spiritually).

4. If you don't want advice, don't ask. The real issue here would appear to be psychological, a complex: Why is it that you put up red flags when given advice?

5. No, no, it is you who has been doing the two-step, not me. As for my explanations, I have plainly stated that it all agrees with the bible. But what I have also offered are the missing pieces that you have never heard before. Yet you can't bring yourself to go beyond your limited comfort zone, and pass anything out of the realm of your understanding off as "magical", at which point you categorically dismiss it. The same mechanism that you affront all things beyond you, is also that which you hide behind. It's your dodge, and the very thing that keeps you down. No...we could not "go from there"...because you won't allow yourself. But here you are psycho-flirting.

6. No, you came around asking questions, with no intention of going where the answers are to be found. That's evasive. Your behavior is that of a tagger who reveals his inner self and then retreats into the darkness. And, no, that also means it is you yourself who makes all of this personal, no one else.

If you ever actually want to have a serious discussion...you need to change.