Is true Christianity a religion?

[justaname]

Richard,

Well no, I never said we are saved by our tangible works. We are saved by God; our salvation is in Christ. Your post is a straw-man argument.

 

[justaname]

The response God wants is for a person to honor His Son by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His Son's work on the cross. You say these words indicate a work.

Here is another straw-man argument.

But something to ponder...by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His Son's work...is something we all must do to please God otherwise God's wrath remains on us.

Religion.

 

[eldios]

Religion = what mankind practices in order to please the god they think exists. It is a practice of things (works and rituals) they think will please their God and make them acceptable.

In the dictionary the word “religion” is defined as what man does for the God they think exists.

However, true Christianity is about what God has done for mankind. There is nothing in the dictionary that defines “religion” as what God has done for mankind.

Therefore is true Christianity a religion?

What I find so amazing in the Christian religion is that men and women will search out scriptures in one part of the Bible to try and defeat scriptures in another part of the Bible. You see it on all of the forums. Instead of trying to discuss the Scriptures in the original post they interject other Scriptures found in other places that they say make the other Scripture meaningless. --- Religion is what separates men and women today. They don't seem to understand that Jesus (God) has made an end run around religion and made it null and void.

Not many will try to study, in depth, what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:23-31

1 Cor 1:23-31
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

*Because it is what God has done for mankind and not what men and women can do in a religion for themselves.

24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

*By doing for mankind what they could not do for themselves God, in His wisdom, has setup a plan of salvation that is not dependant on what men and women do. Since, in religion, men and women feel that THEY must do something, they find God's plan foolish. To religion a plan of salvation in which men and women cannot work for salvation is foolish. In religion every one feels that they must work for what they get. Example, when a person receives a gift they feel that they must give one in return. They do not understand what a free gift is or how to accept it. However, a free gift requires nothing in return except a feeling of gratitude and a thank you.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

*I believe the above is saying the same things I am saying; the things which are not, the absents of religion, and the things that are, religions, have been brought to nothing.

29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

*Men and women glory (take pride) in their religious works they do. They think they will please God and it is hard for them to deny themselves this control of their salvation and give ALL the control to God.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
(NKJ)

The work of Jesus Christ on the cross has become all that is necessary for a person's salvation. It is righteousness, sanctification, and redemption for all those that will place ALL their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what He (God) did on the cross. As you can see God had a plan that removed the work of salvation from mankind and accomplished the work Himself. Yet, men and women WILL NOT accept it, they still feel that THEY must do something too. They cannot accept a plan of salvation that does not give them some control over it.

To many, the history of mankind's religions did not change much with the death and resurrection of Jesus (God). Religions continued to be a system of things (works) that men and women practice for their god.

People in religion today cannot accept the idea that with the death of Jesus, God instituted a hidden plan of salvation that does not depend on mankind's performance and gave it to Paul.

Eph 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(NKJ)

Notice that in the above it is talking about what God has done for us, not what we do. In verse 10 it says we are His workmanship. He did all the work to make us His.

Eph 3:1-3
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
(NKJ)

In this dispensation of the grace of God all mankind is required to do is to accept what God has done for their salvation and to deny their control over it. They are required to place ALL their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross. When they do this they show that they believe what God has done for them.

John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NKJ)

Food for thought

The "elect" were chosen to come out of the beast that all religious people worship and where all religious traditions and doctrines come from. The elect are the prophets and the saints ( apostles ) who are used to write and speak for God and the believers who listen to the gospel of God that the prophets and saints preach to them and believe the words from the gospel are true.

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

You can call yourself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, black, white, Asian, American, German, fat, small, thin, tall or any other descriptive name of your visible body but if you are called by the Holy Spirit of God for His purpose, none of those names you call your body matters. You are now a part of God that will never let you go back to calling yourself anything else but a saint or apostle. The former elect before Jesus was used by God were called saints and prophets.

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:

Daniel 7
27: And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'

Psalm 16
3: As for the saints in the land, they are the noble, in whom is all my delight.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled thy holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.

Once you are "reborn" in the spirit of God, God will call you one of His saints despite you calling yourself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or whatever religious name humans call you or you call yourself.

 

[H. Richard]

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

The above says that God is Spirit. How do men worship a Spirit? Is it by doing physical, tangible activates? Are tangible activities spiritual activities?

tangible = what can be touched, felt by touch, having actual form and substance, physical matter

spirit = breath, courage, vigor, the soul, life, the thinking, motivating, feeling part of man as distinguished from the physical body, the mind; intelligence, regarded as separate from matter.

For your information.

 

[bbyrd009]

so then the answer is "yes" right, to "are spiritual activities tangible ones?"

 

[eldios]

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

The above says that God is Spirit. How do men worship a Spirit? Is it by doing physical, tangible activates? Are tangible activities spiritual activities?

tangible = what can be touched, felt by touch, having actual form and substance, physical matter

spirit = breath, courage, vigor, the soul, life, the thinking, motivating, feeling part of man as distinguished from the physical body, the mind; intelligence, regarded as separate from matter.

For your information.

The word "worship" in biblical meaning is "to live accordingly". For example; If you worship Satan, you're living according to all the visible images and thoughts that come into your mind from Satan. If you worship the beast that has humans built false gods with their human hands, you're living according to "materialism". If you worship Christ, then you're living according to the knowledge of God that is eternal. We will all worship Christ in the next generation because Satan and the beast will have been destroyed on the day of the Lord. All the visible images and invisible thoughts we experience will be coming from Christ when we wake up in new bodies on a new earth. Never again will we observe images that appear "good and evil" and cause us fear. We won't get any evil thoughts in our minds either.

 

[H. Richard]

The word "worship" in biblical meaning is "to live accordingly". For example; If you worship Satan, you're living according to all the visible images and thoughts that come into your mind from Satan. If you worship the beast that has humans built false gods with their human hands, you're living according to "materialism". If you worship Christ, then you're living according to the knowledge of God that is eternal. We will all worship Christ in the next generation because Satan and the beast will have been destroyed on the day of the Lord. All the visible images and invisible thoughts we experience will be coming from Christ when we wake up in new bodies on a new earth. Never again will we observe images that appear "good and evil" and cause us fear. We won't get any evil thoughts in our minds either.

***
To "live accordingly" is to live by faith in Jesus. Faith is spiritual, not physical.

Rom 8:15-19
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
NKJV

 

[skypair]

Are you saying you separate God from His word? How do you do that?

Very good question! Yes! What you want is a relationship with God, right? In other words, you want to commune with Him personally .. you do not want the relationship to be a monologue to you from God as is the case with the Bible. You want Him, not just Scripture, to "witness with your spirit that you are a child of God."

Well there is a very significant witness from God, Himself, that is given to us when we are saved. "… joy unspeakable and full of glory, Receiving the salvation of your souls." (1Pet 1:8-9) Because so many Calvinists "dodge" the sinner's prayer of repentance asking God to save them (they call it a "work" and so dismiss it), they can never have this joyful witness of the Spirit.

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

Very good question! Yes! What you want is a relationship with God, right? In other words, you want to commune with Him personally .. you do not want the relationship to be a monologue to you from God as is the case with the Bible. You want Him, not just Scripture, to "witness with your spirit that you are a child of God."

Well there is a very significant witness from God, Himself, that is given to us when we are saved. "… joy unspeakable and full of glory, Receiving the salvation of your souls." (1Pet 1:8-9) Because so many Calvinists "dodge" the sinner's prayer of repentance asking God to save them (they call it a "work" and so dismiss it), they can never have this joyful witness of the Spirit.

skypair

***
I have a problem with your statement concerning the "sinner's prayer of repentance asking God to save them"

This is true for a person that has not placed their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. But for those that have, their sins have already been atoned for and there is no need to continually repent and ask for forgiveness. Jesus shed His blood on the cross one time for all.

As for joy, there is no joy in the idea that a person has to continually worry over their sins of the flesh.

 

[skypair]

I have a problem with your statement concerning the "sinner's prayer of repentance asking God to save them" ... But for those that have, their sins have already been atoned for and there is no need to continually repent and ask for forgiveness. Jesus shed His blood on the cross one time for all.

Yup .. you misunderstand repentance. The repentance you are talking about is 2Cor 7:9-11 -- "change of behavior" repentance where we quit committing a specific sin. This is for sanctification of the saint.

I am talking about the "change of heart" repentance (Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 26:20) that leads to justification of the unsaved. There is no such thing as someone who is saved just because they believe or "trust" in Christ. Why not? Because they have not obeyed the gospel.

As for joy, there is no joy in the idea that a person has to continually worry over their sins of the flesh.

True .. but the saved person doesn't have to worry about losing their salvation .. they just have to worry about the worldly consequences of sin.

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

Yup .. you misunderstand repentance. The repentance you are talking about is 2Cor 7:9-11 -- "change of behavior" repentance where we quit committing a specific sin. This is for sanctification of the saint.

I am talking about the "change of heart" repentance (Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 26:20) that leads to justification of the unsaved. There is no such thing as someone who is saved just because they believe or "trust" in Christ. Why not? Because they have not obeyed the gospel.


True .. but the saved person doesn't have to worry about losing their salvation .. they just have to worry about the worldly consequences of sin.

skypair

***

So we justify ourselves by repenting, right? It is something we do, right?

Wrong, a man's work can not justify that man.
1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

What do you see as obeying the gospel? Explain your idea of what the gospel entails? Just saying obeying the gospel doesn't mean much since many believe the gospel to be what Jesus taught the Jews who were under the Law of Moses where others believe Paul's teachings where we are not under the Law of Moses. If your answer is complicated then you are not obeying the gospel.

2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Religion = what mankind practices in order to please the god they think exists. It is a practice of things (works and rituals) they think will please their God and make them acceptable.

In the dictionary the word “religion” is defined as what man does for the God they think exists.

However, true Christianity is about what God has done for mankind. There is nothing in the dictionary that defines “religion” as what God has done for mankind.

Therefore is true Christianity a religion?

What I find so amazing in the Christian religion is that men and women will search out scriptures in one part of the Bible to try and defeat scriptures in another part of the Bible. You see it on all of the forums. Instead of trying to discuss the Scriptures in the original post they interject other Scriptures found in other places that they say make the other Scripture meaningless. --- Religion is what separates men and women today. They don't seem to understand that Jesus (God) has made an end run around religion and made it null and void.

Not many will try to study, in depth, what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:23-31

1 Cor 1:23-31
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

*Because it is what God has done for mankind and not what men and women can do in a religion for themselves.

24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

*By doing for mankind what they could not do for themselves God, in His wisdom, has setup a plan of salvation that is not dependant on what men and women do. Since, in religion, men and women feel that THEY must do something, they find God's plan foolish. To religion a plan of salvation in which men and women cannot work for salvation is foolish. In religion every one feels that they must work for what they get. Example, when a person receives a gift they feel that they must give one in return. They do not understand what a free gift is or how to accept it. However, a free gift requires nothing in return except a feeling of gratitude and a thank you.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

*I believe the above is saying the same things I am saying; the things which are not, the absents of religion, and the things that are, religions, have been brought to nothing.

29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

*Men and women glory (take pride) in their religious works they do. They think they will please God and it is hard for them to deny themselves this control of their salvation and give ALL the control to God.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
(NKJ)

The work of Jesus Christ on the cross has become all that is necessary for a person's salvation. It is righteousness, sanctification, and redemption for all those that will place ALL their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what He (God) did on the cross. As you can see God had a plan that removed the work of salvation from mankind and accomplished the work Himself. Yet, men and women WILL NOT accept it, they still feel that THEY must do something too. They cannot accept a plan of salvation that does not give them some control over it.

To many, the history of mankind's religions did not change much with the death and resurrection of Jesus (God). Religions continued to be a system of things (works) that men and women practice for their god.

People in religion today cannot accept the idea that with the death of Jesus, God instituted a hidden plan of salvation that does not depend on mankind's performance and gave it to Paul.

Eph 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(NKJ)

Notice that in the above it is talking about what God has done for us, not what we do. In verse 10 it says we are His workmanship. He did all the work to make us His.

Eph 3:1-3
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
(NKJ)

In this dispensation of the grace of God all mankind is required to do is to accept what God has done for their salvation and to deny their control over it. They are required to place ALL their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross. When they do this they show that they believe what God has done for them.

John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NKJ)

Food for thought

Maybe you misunderstand what is true Christianity is. Who defines Christianity? Paul or Jesus? Jesus stated to go into all the world and make disciplines of all nations. A disciple is one disciplined in the teachings of a master. Jesus didn't stop with those words, rather he went on to state: "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". The teachings of Jesus are his commandments. Jesus is suppose to be our king and his words are to be the laws which govern our behavior.

Yes, true Christianity is a religion, but the church(I speak broadly of the majority of professed Christians) doesn't follow Jesus and they are not really Christians (followers of Christ).

 

[justaname]

Richard,

Words take on meaning in a context, and can have different implications depending on how you use them. The semantic domain of a word can be very large in any given language. For my chosen word 'tangible', this is how I was using it:

Tangible:
• clear and definite; real: the emphasis is now on tangible results.

Yes spiritual activities can be tangible, and in the case of faith I would hope all who claim to have it had a tangible faith.

 

[skypair]

So we justify ourselves by repenting, right? It is something we do, right?

Wrong .. WE repent -- God justifies. Why? Because He commanded us to repent and promised He would save us if we do!

What do you see as obeying the gospel? Explain your idea of what the gospel entails? Just saying obeying the gospel doesn't mean much since many believe the gospel to be what Jesus taught the Jews who were under the Law of Moses where others believe Paul's teachings where we are not under the Law of Moses.

Sure, HR. The gospel of Jesus Christ is given in Acts 2:36-40. Acts 2:36 mirrors Jn 16:8 convicting those present (and us) of sin and of righteousness. In 2:37, having believed what Peter just preached, they asked what they should do.

And here comes God's, the BIBLE'S, command (2:38, 17:30, 26:20, Job 33:26-27, Isa 55:7) .. "Repent, and be baptized" by the Holy Spirit. If anyone needs to know what repentance is .. well, look at Job 33:26-27 above or Isa 55:7 -- "If the wicked will turn from his ways and the unrighteous from his thoughts, the Lord will have mercy and abundantly pardon." Whether under the law or under grace .. same thing.

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

Wrong .. WE repent -- God justifies. Why? Because He commanded us to repent and promised He would save us if we do!


Sure, HR. The gospel of Jesus Christ is given in Acts 2:36-40. Acts 2:36 mirrors Jn 16:8 convicting those present (and us) of sin and of righteousness. In 2:37, having believed what Peter just preached, they asked what they should do.

And here comes God's, the BIBLE'S, command (2:38, 17:30, 26:20, Job 33:26-27, Isa 55:7) .. "Repent, and be baptized" by the Holy Spirit. If anyone needs to know what repentance is .. well, look at Job 33:26-27 above or Isa 55:7 -- "If the wicked will turn from his ways and the unrighteous from his thoughts, the Lord will have mercy and abundantly pardon." Whether under the law or under grace .. same thing.

skypair

***
Who asked "what should they do??? Was it the Gentiles or Jews?? Jesus was never sent to the Gentiles so how could the Gentiles repent??

so you think what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost was for those under grace. Show me where Peter said people are no longer under the Law of Moses. The gospel of grace given to Paul for the world is not found in the 4 gospels nor in anything Peter taught. All Peter taught is that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King. Peter never said that Jesus' shed blood atoned for, paid for all the sins of the world. Peter never said that faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross saves a person. If he did, show it to me. Paul is the one that taught that Jesus' shed blood on the cross atoned for all the sins of the world

Use common sense, if Peter was preaching to the Gentiles too at Pentecost he sure didn't know it.

 

[H. Richard]

Richard,

Words take on meaning in a context, and can have different implications depending on how you use them. The semantic domain of a word can be very large in any given language. For my chosen word 'tangible', this is how I was using it:

Tangible:
• clear and definite; real: the emphasis is now on tangible results.

Yes spiritual activities can be tangible, and in the case of faith I would hope all who claim to have it had a tangible faith.

***
faith in what is seen (tangible) is not faith. You are using the word incorrectly.

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

I prefer Jesus' example of spirit and it certainly isn't tangible.

 

[justaname]

***
faith in what is seen (tangible) is not faith. You are using the word incorrectly.

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

I prefer Jesus' example of spirit and it certainly isn't tangible.

I am not using the word incorrectly...

Tangible
adjective
1.
capable of being touched; discernible by thetouch; material or substantial.
2.
real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary:
the tangible benefits of sunshine.
3.
definite; not vague or elusive:
no tangible grounds for suspicion.
4.
(of an asset) having actual physical existence, asreal estate or chattels, and therefore capable ofbeing assigned a value in monetary terms.
noun
5.
something tangible, especially a tangible asset.

c.f. #2 and #3

Now you have switched the topic to Spirit rather than faith. Your argument is nonsensical and intangible (c.f. #2)

intangible |inˈtanjəb(ə)l| adjective
1. unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence: my companions do not care about cyberspace or anything else so intangible.
2. • difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and abstract: the rose symbolized something intangible about their relationship.
3. • (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a physical object and of a value not precisely measurable: intangible business property like trademarks and patents.

 

[H. Richard]

I am not using the word incorrectly...

Tangible
adjective
1.
capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.
2.
real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary:
the tangible benefits of sunshine.
3.
definite; not vague or elusive:
no tangible grounds for suspicion.
4.
(of an asset) having actual physical existence, asreal estate or chattels, and therefore capable ofbeing assigned a value in monetary terms.
noun
5.
something tangible, especially a tangible asset.

c.f. #2 and #3

Now you have switched the topic to Spirit rather than faith. Your argument is nonsensical and intangible (c.f. #2)

intangible |inˈtanjəb(ə)l| adjective
1. unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence: my companions do not care about cyberspace or anything else so intangible.
2. • difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and abstract: the rose symbolized something intangible about their relationship.
3. • (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a physical object and of a value not precisely measurable: intangible business property like trademarks and patents.

***
Your definitions are correct but that is not what was said. What was said by you is that faith has a tangible result component and I have already expressed my opinion that faith is not tangible. If faith has a tangible component then it is not faith.

To say you have faith in something intangible, not seen or felt, it is faith in things not seen, felt or tangible. My statement = faith, (belief, trust, confidence) is not tangible or capable of being touched. What you are indicating is that an intangible activity brings about a tangible results and I disagree with you. Since I disagree with you that makes my argument ""nonsensical and intangible."" === what ever!

The scripture says that God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must do so in the spirit (faith). Without faith it is impossible to please God. It does not say that a person must worship God with tangible activities. You are saying that.

 

[skypair]

Who asked "what should they do??? Was it the Gentiles or Jews?? Jesus was never sent to the Gentiles so how could the Gentiles repent??

So we have a "mid-Acts GOSPEL" believer here, eh? Oh, my. So do you suppose that those Jews that converted at Pentecost were not part of the church?

so you think what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost was for those under grace.

No, we are all under the law post-resurrection and only come under grace through repentance of sin calling on the name of the Lord.

The gospel of grace given to Paul for the world is not found in the 4 gospels nor in anything Peter taught.

It was the same one Peter preached .. Acts 17:29-30, 26:20, etc. You were just expecting to find it in his epistles .. where it is NOT.

Use common sense, if Peter was preaching to the Gentiles too at Pentecost he sure didn't know it.

And it didn't matter anyway. We were all to be added to the same church .. "To the Jews first and then to the Gentiles." Do you suppose Peter preached a different gospel to Cornelius?

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

So we have a "mid-Acts GOSPEL" believer here, eh? Oh, my. So do you suppose that those Jews that converted at Pentecost were not part of the church?


No, we are all under the law post-resurrection and only come under grace through repentance of sin calling on the name of the Lord.


It was the same one Peter preached .. Acts 17:29-30, 26:20, etc. You were just expecting to find it in his epistles .. where it is NOT.


And it didn't matter anyway. We were all to be added to the same church .. "To the Jews first and then to the Gentiles." Do you suppose Peter preached a different gospel to Cornelius?

skypair

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Under the Abraham covenant any one blessing the Jews were promised a blessing from God. The scriptures tell us that Cornelius was a blessing to the Jews. Nothing was said to Cornelius about the shed blood of Jesus atoning for his sins or having faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.. No, Cornelius was not saved under grace. He became a proselyte under the Jewish Law of Moses.

If you can prove by the scriptures that Jesus and His apostles told the Jews they did not have to keep the Law of Moses you can win this argument. But it is not there so I win.

As I see it you are mixing what Jesus and Peter said to the Jews in with the gospel of grace as Paul taught it.. If you are comfortable with that then continue to do so. But I will not do it. The scriptures tell us that we must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of God, not blend it all together.