Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation ?

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I think, when a man come to belief, he ought follow Christ as a child. Of course, baptizing is really in the Holy Spirit. But I am sure the Holy Spirit is acting specially for water, in which everyone is baptizing with belief in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ sanctifies the water in the Name of the Father, Himself - the Son and the Holy Spirit, while in that water someone is baptizing with Belief in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit . If someone has not the Belief and is baptizing only formally, thus such baptism is not valid and give not Salvation. But if such man come to Christ more after his baptizing, it is not any necessity in new baptizing - the first baptizing become valid.
When the man come to belief in Jesus Christ just before his death and has not any possibility to baptize, then he can get Salvation without physical water, through acting of the Holy Spirit. Such cases are extraordinary.
We live on the Earth in flesh and we not only believe inside our souls but express our belief with physical actions as well. Jesus Christ show us the examples of such actions and the Christian Church keep it during ages.
 

veteran

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What are your thoughts on Water Baptism and Salvation ?

Matt 3:13-15
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?"
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he suffered Him.
(KJV)

John the Baptist recognized Christ and knew he had more need to be baptized of Him, than his baptizing our Lord Jesus. Yet Christ Jesus said let it be so (to fulfill all righteousness).

That shows our Lord Jesus, even though He had no need to be baptized of John, allowed it in order to fulfill all righteousness, thus setting the example for us. So what should that mean for His servants who believe on Him?

The malefactor who believed on Him that was crucified with Him didn't have a chance to get baptized. So just because he didn't and Jesus told him he'd be with Him in Paradise that day, that's still no excuse for those who 'can'... get baptized, to not do it.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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HollyRock said:
What are your thoughts on Water Baptism and Salvation ?
Water baptism is necessary to be saved for water baptism is the means God has chosen to save man therefore Peter could say "baptism doth also now save us" 1 Pet 3:21. God has chosen water baptism as the point where He does the work of putting off the body of sin, Col 2:11,12 the point where sins are remited, Acts 2:38. Since water baptism is where sins are remitted and no unremitted sin makes it into heaven, baptism therefore is essential to one's salvation.
 

Dodo_David

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Ernest T. Bass said:
Water baptism is necessary to be saved for water baptism is the means God has chosen to save man therefore Peter could say "baptism doth also now save us" 1 Pet 3:21. God has chosen water baptism as the point where He does the work of putting off the body of sin, Col 2:11,12 the point where sins are remited, Acts 2:38. Since water baptism is where sins are remitted and no unremitted sin makes it into heaven, baptism therefore is essential to one's salvation.
water baptism is a work.
 

Webers_Home

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Ernest T. Bass said:
water baptism is where sins are remitted
Does water baptism remit an entire lifetime of sins; or only sins committed
up to the moment of the ritual? In other words: if water baptism is a
one-time ritual; then how do people obtain remission for sins they commit
down the road?

Buen Camino
/
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Webers_Home said:
Does water baptism remit an entire lifetime of sins; or only sins committed
up to the moment of the ritual? In other words: if water baptism is a
one-time ritual; then how do people obtain remission for sins they commit
down the road?

Buen Camino
/
Hi,


Thanks for the questions.


Water baptism remits sins committed up to that point in time. After being water baptized and becoming a Christian then the new born Christian must "walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"** 1 Jn 1:7. So the cleansing away of sins does not start and stop at water baptism, it begins at water baptism and continues "IF" the new born Christian continues to walk in the light.

(**In 1 Jn 1:7, both verbs "walk" and "cleanseth" are present tense)

Dodo_David said:
water baptism is a work.

A work that God does...." Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation (work) of God" Col 2:12.

So when one passively submits himself to water baptism, God does the work of removing the body of sin, remitting sins.
 

Wormwood

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Dodo_David said:
water baptism is a work.
Baptism was never viewed by the church as a work until Zwingli classified it as such in his theology ex nihilo. Martin Luther even said that baptism was God's work, not a human work.
 

Dodo_David

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Baptism is what one goes through because one has already been saved by grace through faith.

Baptism is a public declaration that one has already become born-again.

There was a one-week period between the day that I asked the Lord Jesus to be my Savior and to forgive my sins and the day that I underwent the ritual of baptism. My sins were forgiven on that first day.
 

Webers_Home

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Ernest T. Bass said:
Water baptism remits sins committed up to that point in time. After being water
baptized and becoming a Christian then the new born Christian must "walk in the
light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of
Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"** 1 Jn 1:7. So the cleansing away
of sins does not start and stop at water baptism, it begins at water baptism and
continues "IF" the new born Christian continues to walk in the light.
†. 1 John 1:8-10 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to
forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What happens to water-baptized Christians who die with un-confessed sins?
Do they have to undergo yet another kind of cleansing on the other side?
Are there confessionals in heaven?

Buen Camino
/
 

FHII

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I am standing my ground. Water baptism isn't necessary. It's a wonderful thing and ok to do, but not necessary for salvation. Baptism into Christ is necessary. Please see my post #20 in this thread.
 

aspen

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the problem i have with separating Baptism from salvation, besides my belief that it is a sacrament, is that it was synonomous with becoming a Christian throughout the entire Church until the more radical Reformers decided it was optional. claiming that baptism was unnecessary before the Reformation was akin to saying that having relationship with Christ is not really necessary, today. it also is a very convient way for dismissing the authority of the Church
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Dodo_David said:
Baptism is what one goes through because one has already been saved by grace through faith.

Baptism is a public declaration that one has already become born-again.

There was a one-week period between the day that I asked the Lord Jesus to be my Savior and to forgive my sins and the day that I underwent the ritual of baptism. My sins were forgiven on that first day.
Water baptism is in order to obtain remission of sins. Col 2:11,12 it is the point of being baptized when God does the work of removing the body of sin, the point where "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" Rom 6:6.

The order of Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16 is baptism BEFORE remission of sins/saved. One is still in his unremitted sins until he is baptized.
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." One has not had his sins washed, not called upon the name of the Lord until he has been water baptized.

Peter quoting Joel's prophecy:

Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
This prophecy was fulfilled inn v38:

Acts 2:21-----call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38-----repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins


"Saved" is equivalent to remission "remission of sins" and since there is just one way to be saved "calling upon the name of the Lord" is equivalent to repenting and be baptized.
Webers_Home said:
†. 1 John 1:8-10 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to
forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What happens to water-baptized Christians who die with un-confessed sins?
Do they have to undergo yet another kind of cleansing on the other side?
Are there confessionals in heaven?

Buen Camino
/
John was writing to Christian, those ALREADY water baptized and any sin the Christian will not confess/not repent of will cause him to be lost. Therefore John advises the Chrisitan to continue to walk in the light whereby Christ's blood continues to wash away ALL sin 1 Jn 1:7.. A continued walking in the light includes a sustained confessing/repenting of sins
 

Webers_Home

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FHII said:
I am standing my ground. Water baptism isn't necessary
Considering the gravity of the consequences for being wrong about this:
I highly recommend that Christians err on the safe side; viz: get it done
else it will haunt them to their dying day.

†. Mark 16:16 . .Whoever believes and is baptized will be spared, but
whoever disbelieves will be condemned.

Now people can quarrel and feud over the correct interpretation of the
Lord's statement till they're hoarse and ready to faint; but according
Heb 6:1-2, they really need to drop it and move on to advanced subjects.

Buen Camino
/
 

Ernest T. Bass

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FHII said:
I am standing my ground. Water baptism isn't necessary. It's a wonderful thing and ok to do, but not necessary for salvation. Baptism into Christ is necessary. Please see my post #20 in this thread.
Hi,

Mk 16:16 Jesus made baptism as essential and important to salvation as belief. This verse is simple and straight forward, but many try and reverse the order putting salvation before baptism. Changing and rearranging verses have nothing to do with interpretation.

In Mt 28, the great commission where Jesus sent his disciples to teach and baptize. This would be human administered water baptism to make one a disciple as Phillip water baptized the eunuch.


The purpose of water baptism is to obtain remission of sins. Can one be saved in his sins? No.

Webers_Home said:
Considering the gravity of the consequences for being wrong about this:
I highly recommend that Christians err on the safe side; viz: get it done
else it will haunt them to their dying day.

†. Mark 16:16 . .Whoever believes and is baptized will be spared, but
whoever disbelieves will be condemned.

Now people can quarrel and feud over the correct interpretation of the
Lord's statement till they're hoarse and ready to faint; but according
Heb 6:1-2, they really need to drop it and move on to advanced subjects.

Buen Camino
/
How many ways can "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" be interpreted?
 

Webers_Home

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Ernest T. Bass said:
John was writing to Christian, those ALREADY water baptized and any sin the
Christian will not confess/not repent of will cause him to be lost.
Within the context of 1John 1:3-10, the purpose of walking in the light,
and confessing sins; isn't to keep believers from becoming lost; but
rather: to maintain their fellowship with the Father and His son; which
is a horse of another color.

Buen Camino
/
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Webers_Home said:
Within the context of 1John 1:3-10, the purpose of walking in the light,
and confessing sins; isn't to keep believers from becoming lost; but
rather: to maintain their fellowship with the Father and His son; which
is a horse of another color.

Buen Camino
/
1 Jn 1:7 the purpose of the continued walking is to have a continued cleansing of all sin. Cleansing away of all sins has everything to do with being a Christian and saved. No uncleansed sins will enter heaven.

Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:4 a Christian is holy, without spot, without blame. How can a Christian who occasionally sins ever be without spot, without blame?
By the continued washing away of ALL sin by the blood of Christ. If a Christian quits walking in the light, then Christ blood no longer cleanses away all sin and he then has spot and blame and has fallen away. Again, not one single, solitary sin will enter into heaven.
 

Webers_Home

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.
The people to whom John addressed his first epistle were in possession of
eternal life before his letter arrived.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

According to 1John 1:1-2, eternal life isn't just an immortal kind of life; but
rather, an infinite kind of life; which means eternal life is 110% impervious
to death; ergo: eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Seeing as how eternal life is a kind of life that can neither wear out, wear
thin, nor wear off; then people who have it aren't just impervious to the
wages of sin for a little while; but forever.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, and
not under any condition.

So then, seeing as how people with eternal life are in absolutely no danger
of being condemned for their sins; then it becomes very important to nail
down the meaning of the word "fellowship" in context with 1John 1:1-7 in
order to avoid falling prey to the rather common error of believing that the
Father's little children are in grave danger of going to hell if they neglect
to walk in the light.

FYI: Take a look at the two statements below and see if you can figure out
a way to harmonize them.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is
not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His
word is not in us."

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

In other words; according to 1John 3:9, people who have undergone the
Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8 are supposed to be
incapable of sin; yet according to 1John 1:8-10 just the opposite is true;
and ironically the same author penned both those statements. So he didn't
contradict another writer; no, he contradicted himself-- at least that's the
way it usually appears to poorly-trained Bible students who haven't a clue
what happened to them when they underwent the Spirit birth.

Buen Camino
/
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Webers_Home said:
.
The people to whom John addressed his first epistle were in possession of
eternal life before his letter arrived.



†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

According to 1John 1:1-2, eternal life isn't just an immortal kind of life; but
rather, an infinite kind of life; which means eternal life is 110% impervious
to death; ergo: eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Seeing as how eternal life is a kind of life that can neither wear out, wear
thin, nor wear off; then people who have it aren't just impervious to the
wages of sin for a little while; but forever.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, and
not under any condition.

So then, seeing as how people with eternal life are in absolutely no danger
of being condemned for their sins; then it becomes very important to nail
down the meaning of the word "fellowship" in context with 1John 1:1-7 in
order to avoid falling prey to the rather common error of believing that the
Father's little children are in grave danger of going to hell if they neglect
to walk in the light.

FYI: Take a look at the two statements below and see if you can figure out
a way to harmonize them.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is
not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His
word is not in us."

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

In other words; according to 1John 3:9, people who have undergone the
Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8 are supposed to be
incapable of sin; yet according to 1John 1:8-10 just the opposite is true;
and ironically the same author penned both those statements. So he didn't
contradict another writer; no, he contradicted himself-- at least that's the
way it usually appears to poorly-trained Bible students who haven't a clue
what happened to them when they underwent the Spirit birth.

Buen Camino
/


In 1 Jn 1:7 John made the salvation of those Christians to whom he was writing CONDITIONAL upon their choosing to continue to walk in the light or not. John used the word IF - a word of condition. "IF" the Christian quits walking in the light, his sins are no longer cleasned and he has spot and blame and becomes lost.


Rom 6:23 says nothing about the gift being unconditional. This gift is given "through Jesus Christ our Lord" so only those "in Christ" can have this gift but Christians can fall away from Christ, Rev 2.


Jn 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."


Note that having everlasting life and not coming into condemnation is CONDITIONAL upon ones CONTINUED hearing and believing (both verbs are present tense). One hears and believes by choice, so one can quit hearing and believing by choice. Other than Charles Stanley, who will argue one can quit hearing and believing and yet still be saved in is unbelief?
So as long as one conditionally hears and believes he will never fall into condemnation.



John was not contradicting himself for Christians do sin, 1 Jn 1:8-10.



1 Jn 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."




1) the verb 'doth not' is present tense meaning the Christian does not CONTINUE to live in sin. If one desires to be a Christian then he must give up his sinful lifestyle.

2) cannot does not necessarily mean impossible. The law says you cannot drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is impossible for you to drive over 55mph.

"Cannot sin" is also present tense and does not mean it is impossible for a Christian to ever sin but that it's impossible for one to be a Christian yet continue to live in sin, to continue to live a sinful lifestyle.
 

Harry3142

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When I've encountered those who state that without water baptism we are not really saved, they have also stipulated that it must be a baptism by full immersion; no other means is said to be acceptable to God. They also have said that full immersion was necessary in order to truly cleanse us of our sins.

However, water cannot cleanse us of our sins, and never could. God demands that our sins be cleansed with blood:

First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:8-14,NIV)

Through Jesus' sacrifice he made the perfect act of atonement. And those of us who accept as cleansing us of our sins the blood that was shed through that sacrifice have assurance of salvation, not because of our works, but because of God's own work through his Son:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

Also, those who insist that only those who have been baptized by full immersion are saved have used the root word baptizo as evidence of their stand's being correct. This word has multiple meanings, depending on the circumstances which it is describing. But baptizo is also a greek word, not a jewish one. The person we call 'John the Baptist' was not called by that name until after Scripture was either written down or translated into greek. And Jesus would never have used that word in his conversations with his disciples.

Instead, he would have used the aramaic/hebrew word Mikvah. This word means to wash, but not to bury. In fact, archeologists digging in the holy land have uncovered mikvah pools, which were specifically used for this ceremonial washing. Without exception those pools have been so shallow that anyone getting into them would only have had water covering his ankles, rather than its being dep enough to drown in. The person would have stepped into the shallow pool, and then would have had water poured over him from a container. With the limited vocabulary of that day and age, the greek word baptizo was simply the closest to the aramaic/hebrew word mikvah, so the authors of New Testament Scripture used it.
 

Wormwood

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Dodo_David,

Do you have some verses to validate that point? In Acts 2, people were "cut to the heart" by the message of the Gospel. However, this is not when they received the Spirit and were cleansed. Rather, Peter told them to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit." In Romans 6, Paul says baptism is when a person died with Christ. In Colossians, Paul says baptism was the moment a person was clothed with Christ. In 1 Corinthians, baptism is the moment in which a person is said to become part of the body of Christ by the Spirit. In 1 Peter, Peter says "baptism now saves you." It is never called a ritual or was never viewed as a meaningless act that simply outwardly displayed what had already happened inwardly. The early church never viewed it this way. This idea was created by Zwingli from nothing.