Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

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BreadOfLife

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The man made idea of original sin is usually attributed to Augustine and made more popular by men like John Calvin. From Wikipedia " Augustine's formulation of original sin after 412 CE was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good. Before 412 CE, Augustine said that free will was weakened but not destroyed by original sin.[2] But after 412 CE this changed to a loss of free will except to sin"

Original sin was never taught by Christ, nor His Apostles nor any Bible prophet.

Romans 5 refutes original sin:

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

"have sinned" shows one's personal culpability in sinning and not how was passively born a sinner against his will.

++++++++++++

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

If everyone was born having passively inherited Adam's sin, then all would be guilty of the same sin. Yet verse 14 speaks of those whom death reigned over yet they committed transgressions different from Adam. Hence they died as a result of their own sinning and not as a result of inheriting sin from Adam. If they died as a result of Adam's sin, then there would be no difference made between Adam's sin and their sin.

There would have been no need for Paul to spend the first three cahpters of Romans proving both Jew and Gentile are sinners and quoting many verses to prove they were if all were born dead having inherited Adam's sin. Yet nowhere in the frist three chapters of Romans where Paul concludes all have sinned does Paul even mention the idea of original sin. There would not be a more apt context than Romans chapters 1-3 for Paul to declare all are sinners for having inherited Adam's sin. Yet Paul shows in those chapters that sin is a transgression (1 John 3:4) men choose to commit not something passively inherited against their will.

++++++++++

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Paul does NOT say man were made sinners UNCONDITONALLY by Adam's transgression as he did NOT say many shall be UNCONDTIONALLY made righteous by Christ's perfect obedience. Calvinists read the idea of UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners into the verse.

1) Rom 5:19 is a if - then type statement. IF it is true that all are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by Adam's transgression, THEN it is equally true that same many will have UNCONDITONALLY inherited Christ's righteousness and you have created Universalism.

2) men are made sinners as Adam was made a sinner. Adam chose to sin and transgress God's law. Likewise, men today choose to transgress God's law (1 John 3:4) therefore conditionally made sinners for having chosen to sin (Romans 5:12). Men are conditionally made righteous for having chose to obey (Romans 6:16 - "obedience unto righteousness"). There is no example in the Bible of one declared righteous by God without first conditionally obeying God's righteous commands.
WRONG.

Original sin was simply defined by Augustine. Paul taught it - and YOU posted some of the verses.
You simply misinterpreted it.
Romans 5:14
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

This is about people NOT having sinned as Adam did and still being found guilty.

Your "If/Then" scenario of Romans 5:19 is nonsense. This isn't Universalism because it doesn't say "ALL" will be made righteous. It says "MANY".
It is saying plainly that just as everybody is guilty because of one guy's sin - a lot of people will be made righteous because of another guy's obedience.
 

charity

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Totally agree here Chris, I see water baptism confession with our words.

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved". Romans 10:9

This is actually what happens with water baptism...a confession among others of our new faith in Christ.
xo
Hi @Nancy,

I see what you are saying, it does seem like a form of declaration.

I recently read a paper written by an American lady, whom I met many years ago on a forum. We were not always in agreement, mostly because of our different way of thinking: but I admired her dedication; her dogged determination to get to the bottom of things, her love of the Scriptures, and her reverence for God, in Christ Jesus.

She opened up a website where she could place her findings, and I pop in occasionally. I did so in regard to Baptism, to see what her study had unearthed which would be helpful. I found a paper there, with links to other associated papers which deal with different aspects of baptism. You may be interested, so I will give you the link. It is worth persevering, and reading it through, if for no other reason than it is an object lesson in how to go about tackling a subject, with a very logical, and direct approach. A STUDY OF THE MEANING OF THE VARIOUS BAPTISMS OF THE BIBLE | Right Word Truth . (May God bless her dear heart)

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Nancy

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Hi @Nancy,

I see what you are saying, it does seem like a form of declaration.

I recently read a paper written by an American lady, whom I met many years ago on a forum. We were not always in agreement, mostly because of our different way of thinking: but I admired her dedication; her dogged determination to get to the bottom of things, her love of the Scriptures, and her reverence for God, in Christ Jesus.

She opened up a website where she could place her findings, and I pop in occasionally. I did so in regard to Baptism, to see what her study had unearthed which would be helpful. I found a paper there, with links to other associated papers which deal with different aspects of baptism. You may be interested, so I will give you the link. It is worth persevering, and reading it through, if for no other reason than it is an object lesson in how to go about tackling a subject, with a very logical, and direct approach. A STUDY OF THE MEANING OF THE VARIOUS BAPTISMS OF THE BIBLE | Right Word Truth . (May God bless her dear heart)

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you Chris, I will certainly check this out...I do like the direct and logical approach.
In Him Always!
nancy
 
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Nancy

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Thank you Chris, I will certainly check this out...I do like the direct and logical approach.
In Him Always!
nancy

The site looks very interesting...I put it in my favorites, thanks again!
 
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charity

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I love your smile, Nancy, such a generous, warm hearted face.

We are already blessed with ALL spiritual blessings, but I pray that your fellowship with God, in Christ Jesus, will bring you great joy, as you trust in Him.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris
 

Nancy

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I love your smile, Nancy, such a generous, warm hearted face.

We are already blessed with ALL spiritual blessings, but I pray that your fellowship with God, in Christ Jesus, will bring you great joy, as you trust in Him.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

Aww, you are so kind Chris, thank you! He does bring me joy everyday because I make that choice before hitting the floor in the morning! It's amazing how that works, eh?
xo
 
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bbyrd009

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Hi Helen,
I agree water baptism is not going to save anyone. At my Church, when someone baptizes someone (and it in not always the Pastor doing it) They ask the person to claim with their mouths their commitment to Christ, before dunking them, they say something to the effect of "You have been buried with Christ...(and as they are about to dunk them) they say ... and are raised with newness of life, Christ Life." I do love to watch them...before hand, they each give their testimony.
should be the minimum requirement imo, never seen this myself, in prolly 500 congregations
 
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Nancy

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should be the minimum requirement imo, never seen this myself, in prolly 500 congregations

Wow, seems kinda standard to me as this is how most of the Church's I have attended did it...maybe not with those words...
And, correction...when the baptizer say's ..."and raised with newness of life..." it is when the person is coming up out of the water.
 
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bbyrd009

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Wow, seems kinda standard to me as this is how most of the Church's I have attended did it...maybe not with those words...
And, correction...when the baptizer say's ..."and raised with newness of life..." it is when the person is coming up out of the water.
ah, i meant the part where the baptizee should imo undergo some enquiry to determine whether they even understand the words; yehi think the words are pretty standard, not that anyone takes them literally huh. Evabody still waitin for the White Jesus to "return," and cant wait to die for their "afterlife" to begin, right

beware the thief in the night
 
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Nancy

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ah, i meant the part where the baptizee should imo undergo some enquiry to determine whether they even understand the words; yehi think the words are pretty standard, not that anyone takes them literally huh. Evabody still waitin for the White Jesus to "return," and cant wait to die for their "afterlife" to begin, right

beware the thief in the night

Yeah, understood...I was there once...walked back to Egypt for a bit after being baptized, only spent a little over 4 years "following The Lord", I was a miserable sot. Did NOT truly understand it and there was never any follow up as there is in my Church now, many folks take these new-uns under their wings, I love that as I never got any of that...just got wet is what I did.
 

bbyrd009

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Yeah, understood...I was there once...walked back to Egypt for a bit after being baptized, only spent a little over 4 years "following The Lord", I was a miserable sot. Did NOT truly understand it and there was never any follow up as there is in my Church now, many folks take these new-uns under their wings, I love that as I never got any of that...just got wet is what I did.
ya me too
def got Baptized later tho lol, for real
 

Ernest T. Bass

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WRONG.

Original sin was simply defined by Augustine. Paul taught it - and YOU posted some of the verses.
You simply misinterpreted it.
Romans 5:14
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

This is about people NOT having sinned as Adam did and still being found guilty.

Your "If/Then" scenario of Romans 5:19 is nonsense. This isn't Universalism because it doesn't say "ALL" will be made righteous. It says "MANY".
It is saying plainly that just as everybody is guilty because of one guy's sin - a lot of people will be made righteous because of another guy's obedience.

Romans 5:14 death is a consequence of sin and sin reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that did not sin the same sin as Adam. The point you choose to overlook is if all inherit Adam's sin then there is no reason for a distinction to be made between Adam's sin and the sin of those that lived between Adam and Moses for all would die of the same sin. Hence men do not die as a result of inheriting Adam's sin but die as a result of their own sins.
========

Romans 5:19 "(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, (b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

You are inconsistent and biased in dealing with Romans 5:19 in that you want the first half (a) of the verse to teach UNconditional inheritance of Adam's sin but do not want the second half (b) to teach unconditional inheritance of Christ's righteousness.

Secondly you bring up the word "many" yet you want "ALL" to be born unconditionally with Adam's sin. Therefore if 19a teaches ALL are born unconditionally with Adam's sin then that same ALL unconditionally inherit Christ's righteousness.

Lastly, this verse, nor any verse, says men are UNconditionally made sinner or UNconditionally made righteous. No one in the Bible was made UNconditionally righteous as no one UNconditionally made a sinner. One must conditionally commit sin to be a sinner and conditionally do righteousness to be righteous.

=======

Romans 5:18 "Therefore (a) as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so (b) by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

--Both times "all men" refers to the same people.

--"All men" have been on the receiving end of grace (Titus 2:11 God's grace hath appeared to all men). That same "all men" is also on the receiving end of condemnation.
Since God's grace hath appeared to ALL men, then why will not all men UNconditionally receive grace and be saved? Because God's grace is CONDITIONAL, one must conditionally obey God to receive grace.
Likewise all men are not UNconditionally born condemned for one must conditionally sin in order to be condemned hence no one is born UNconditionally condemned.

--Paul's point is the benefit (justification) of Christ's perfect righteousness in going to the cross and dying as a propitiation for all men, that benefit is obtainable by the same all men who have been adversely effected by sin since it entered the world thru Adam. [Hence no limited atonement either.]

And one must CONDITIONALLY have faith to be justified (Romans 5:1) just as one must CONDITIONALLY choose to sin (Romans 5:12) to be condemned. Calvinism ASSUMES the idea of UNCONDITIONALITY into the first half of Romans 5:18-19 with the inconsistency of wanting ALL men to be UNconditionally condemned but not ALL men UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:18-19 is an excellent proof text AGAINST the man made idea of original sin. Christ nor any of His Apostles nor any Bible prophet ever taught such an idea.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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And the Thief on the cross was obedient - at the end. God showed mercy on him because he was penitent but did not have the opportunity to be Baptized. He would have had he not been hanging on a cross.

John 21:21-23 and Exod. 33:19 are about letting God do what HE wills - and not what YOU will.

Again, you provide no verse that definitively states the thief had never been baptized. You simply ASSUME he had never been baptized, assume he was not of those in Mark 1:4-5.

Secondly the thief is NOT an example of NT gospel salvation. Hebrews 9:16-17 Christ's NT gospel would not take effect until some time AFTER Christ died yet the thief was promised paradise BEFORE Christ died. THerefore the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation for he was not amenable, accountable to Acts 2:38 nor Romans 10:9,10 which requires one to believe God 'hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead or ROmans 6:3-5 that requires baptism into the death of Christ. The thief could not meet the requirements of Romans 10:9-10 or Romans 6:3-5 since Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

Matthew 9:6 when Christ was "on earth" He had the authority to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. Yet Christ left earth some 2000 years ago. Christ is not on earth today forgiving men's sins in person hence no one can accurately say they are saved the same way as the thief. If you want to be saved the same way as the thief, you need to invent a time machine and go back in time BEFORE the NT gospel existed and go back under the OT law while Christ was still 'on earth' and let Him personally forgive your sins while not having to follow ROmans 10:9-10 or Romans 6:3-5.

THe 'thief argument' has NEVER held any validity.

============

God is perfectly Holy and cannot lie therefore God's own nature will not allow Him to be unholy or lie. God therefore will not lie, will not go back on what He has promised. Your argument is inconsistent and biased against baptism in that God has required baptism to be saved yet you CLAIM God can still do what He wants and save the unbaptized. Yet God has said one must have faith and repentance to be saved, will you claim God can do what He wants and save the impenitent unbeliever anyway????
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I didn't say anything about any words that must be spoken at all, m bass?
nor about what you know?
So imo you are not replying for a good reason, i guess
which is your right, preach on bro
("nevermind that, what about this?")


I may have misunderstood the point you were trying to make, but you did post (my emp) "... what does the pastor say as you are descending, and then ascending?" (Post #447)

I was pointing out nothing has to be said, no word formula must be said when one is buried in a watery grave or resurrected from that watery grave.
 

BreadOfLife

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Romans 5:14 death is a consequence of sin and sin reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that did not sin the same sin as Adam. The point you choose to overlook is if all inherit Adam's sin then there is no reason for a distinction to be made between Adam's sin and the sin of those that lived between Adam and Moses for all would die of the same sin. Hence men do not die as a result of inheriting Adam's sin but die as a result of their own sins.
========

Romans 5:19 "(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, (b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

You are inconsistent and biased in dealing with Romans 5:19 in that you want the first half (a) of the verse to teach UNconditional inheritance of Adam's sin but do not want the second half (b) to teach unconditional inheritance of Christ's righteousness.

Secondly you bring up the word "many" yet you want "ALL" to be born unconditionally with Adam's sin. Therefore if 19a teaches ALL are born unconditionally with Adam's sin then that same ALL unconditionally inherit Christ's righteousness.

Lastly, this verse, nor any verse, says men are UNconditionally made sinner or UNconditionally made righteous. No one in the Bible was made UNconditionally righteous as no one UNconditionally made a sinner. One must conditionally commit sin to be a sinner and conditionally do righteousness to be righteous.

=======

Romans 5:18 "Therefore (a) as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so (b) by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

--Both times "all men" refers to the same people.

--"All men" have been on the receiving end of grace (Titus 2:11 God's grace hath appeared to all men). That same "all men" is also on the receiving end of condemnation.
Since God's grace hath appeared to ALL men, then why will not all men UNconditionally receive grace and be saved? Because God's grace is CONDITIONAL, one must conditionally obey God to receive grace.
Likewise all men are not UNconditionally born condemned for one must conditionally sin in order to be condemned hence no one is born UNconditionally condemned.

--Paul's point is the benefit (justification) of Christ's perfect righteousness in going to the cross and dying as a propitiation for all men, that benefit is obtainable by the same all men who have been adversely effected by sin since it entered the world thru Adam. [Hence no limited atonement either.]

And one must CONDITIONALLY have faith to be justified (Romans 5:1) just as one must CONDITIONALLY choose to sin (Romans 5:12) to be condemned. Calvinism ASSUMES the idea of UNCONDITIONALITY into the first half of Romans 5:18-19 with the inconsistency of wanting ALL men to be UNconditionally condemned but not ALL men UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:18-19 is an excellent proof text AGAINST the man made idea of original sin. Christ nor any of His Apostles nor any Bible prophet ever taught such an idea.
WRONG.

That’s NOT what Rom. 5:14 says.
It says that they did not sin LIKE Adam did. They did not defy a command from God like Adam did:

New International Version
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

New Living Translation
Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.

English Standard Version
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Berean Study Bible
Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

New American Standard Bible
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

King James Bible
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Christian Standard Bible
Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a type of the Coming One.

Contemporary English Version
Yet death still had power over all who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. This happened, though not everyone disobeyed a direct command from God, as Adam did. In some ways Adam is like Christ who came later.

Good News Translation
But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, death ruled over all human beings, even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam did when he disobeyed God's command. Adam was a figure of the one who was to come.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.

International Standard Version
Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.

NET Bible
Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed.

New Heart English Bible
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.

American Standard Version
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

English Revised Version
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.


This ABSOLUTELY teaches Original Sin because it differentiates between our OWN personal sins and the stain we inherited from Adam’s sin.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Again, you provide no verse that definitively states the thief had never been baptized. You simply ASSUME he had never been baptized, assume he was not of those in Mark 1:4-5.

Secondly the thief is NOT an example of NT gospel salvation. Hebrews 9:16-17 Christ's NT gospel would not take effect until some time AFTER Christ died yet the thief was promised paradise BEFORE Christ died. THerefore the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation for he was not amenable, accountable to Acts 2:38 nor Romans 10:9,10 which requires one to believe God 'hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead or ROmans 6:3-5 that requires baptism into the death of Christ. The thief could not meet the requirements of Romans 10:9-10 or Romans 6:3-5 since Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

Matthew 9:6 when Christ was "on earth" He had the authority to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. Yet Christ left earth some 2000 years ago. Christ is not on earth today forgiving men's sins in person hence no one can accurately say they are saved the same way as the thief. If you want to be saved the same way as the thief, you need to invent a time machine and go back in time BEFORE the NT gospel existed and go back under the OT law while Christ was still 'on earth' and let Him personally forgive your sins while not having to follow ROmans 10:9-10 or Romans 6:3-5.

THe 'thief argument' has NEVER held any validity.

============

God is perfectly Holy and cannot lie therefore God's own nature will not allow Him to be unholy or lie. God therefore will not lie, will not go back on what He has promised. Your argument is inconsistent and biased against baptism in that God has required baptism to be saved yet you CLAIM God can still do what He wants and save the unbaptized. Yet God has said one must have faith and repentance to be saved, will you claim God can do what He wants and save the impenitent unbeliever anyway????
Nonsense.

First of all – YOU are just as responsible for presenting evidence that the Thief WAS Baptized if you are going to demand proof that he WASN’T.

Secondly – your claim that he wasn’t an example of NT Gospel salvation is rubbish. He was saved because of His faith and obedience in Jesus ChristNOT because of his adherence to the OT Law.

Finally – I reiterate what I have posted several times already:
That God will have mercy ono WHOMEVER He wishes – and not who YOU think he should (Exod. 33:19, John 21:22, Rom. 9:15).
 
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Grams

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EPH: 2:
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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bbyrd009

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I may have misunderstood the point you were trying to make, but you did post (my emp) "... what does the pastor say as you are descending, and then ascending?" (Post #447)

I was pointing out nothing has to be said, no word formula must be said when one is buried in a watery grave or resurrected from that watery grave.
yeh, should be pretty self-evident, i agree m bass